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Originally posted by Electro057 Originally posted by illorion If could put the word "decent" in huge neon letters right now I would. Have you ever actually played MO or Xysom or shadowbane... they are awful... just god awful. Darkfall is a decent game i just dont care too much for the run around in a circle left clicking like a crackhead thing. The combat is meh and the game itself is really buggy and messy...
Nah, I've never played anything in that list but Darkfall and it was sorta a horror show for me of getting hunted by mounted players on day 1...And I just kept dying and getting hunted over and over. And it was sorta like fox hunting, except I was the fox...And I'll admit I gave up after a week, but I had no idea what I was doing and I just kept dying and dying.....
Anyways I get your point, if Darkfall was the best game of the lot then I guess we should see if it's possible to make a good FFA Open World PvP game.
lmfao man you are alright with me.
Come play Wushu. If you do, pm me. I think you might enjoy it. It aint polished up like swtor, but it's more than DF:UW.
Thanks for the laugh.
Originally posted by Zuvielify Here's my issue with PvP: I will preface by saying I don't have an issue with PvP games, nor do I have an issue with PvE games. I have an issue when a game mixes the two together (basically every MMO). Here are two reasons why: 1) Either PvP combat sucks 2) Or PvE combat sucks 1) PvP combat sucks because everyone has awesome CC abilities because the game is designed for PvE. Then you're the sad cleric who is stun locked and just waiting to die. 2) PvE combat is gimped and uninteresting because all of the abilities are tuned for PvP. The only possible way to get this right is to have two completely different sets of abilities for each. That's sorta lame, but some games do it that way. I have not played a game where it has ever worked any other way. I know many of you will disagree, but, in my opinion, you're wrong.
A lot of games have specific gear for PvP. But I get your point, PVE focused games tend to have poor PvP. There is usually a few classes that get the short end of the stick, usually the healer or support classes, while tank and dps classes seem to do pretty well.
While I'm an avid pvper, and love pvp focused mmos. I can tell you why I have hated pvp in some mmos.
It's been absolutely horrible pvp gameplay design. Usually this is due to players having godly advantages over others, either through gear progression, levels, or worst of all, cash shop Pay-2-Win elements. These things ruin pvp for almost everyone that would otherwise love it.
Most of the time, these are issues because of a mmo being PVE focused, but with horrid pvp modes/areas tacked on. I'm one to believe a mmo should either be for PVE ONLY, or PVP ONLY. Never both, both just doesn't work worth a damn.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
It's like some who like Justin Bieber, and some don't. If Justin Bieber is force upon you who does not like JB, of course you would try to stay away from it.
If I brought an album and that song from Bieber is on there, I would skip. If I can not skip, I would have not brought that album in the first place.
I like PvP in form of first person shooter, or MOBA, or trading card games, chess, all kind of tabletop gaming. Not in MMORPG where there are too many variables to ruin the experience I my pay money for.
Originally posted by illorion Lol well ill admit that does sounds fun... but what do you do when everyone on the server wants their own castle to defend from the barbarian hordes? Start instancing them? Well now its not a MMO anymore... its Guild wars 1. A lobby game.
Don't let 'em. Or better yet make a political system that allows people to overthrow their leaders. Term limits
The point is both PvP and PvE both have a lot of room for improvement. The problem isn't PvE people versus PvP people it's unimaginative games that satisfy neither.
Well that is true... but the fact of the matter is no developed has the resources or the time to release an MMO with enough content and systems in it simlar to that to make the cut. The feature you mentioned, while a fantastic idea, is still just one idea. A very expensive idea at that.
Let me lay out a different scenario for you. Ive been out gathering rare mats all day for my mega sweet armor im working on. Im about to deposit my stuff in my bank but first im checking my map and the perimieter for danger... before i scurry to the bank and start mad clicking to deposit my stuff... meanwhile my heart is racing with anxiety as i see another player approaching me as im racing to get this stuff into my bank... is this guy friendly... or does he want my stuff and my life... all that excitement... all that stress and reward... just with one simple mechanic
Yeah but there are a lot of games with that one simple mechanic. The problem is most everything else about them sucks. They tend to die fast too. I like unstructured group PvP. That one on one stuff just doesn't have the tactical depth for me.
"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo
Originally posted by emperorwings Getting ganked while trying to plant wheat
rofl, was that you yesterday? Your guild pk'd me while I was setting my shop! hahahah I wrote a story about it on the Wushu forums. Too funny.
I would tell you the cold hard truth, but I don't want to hurt your feelings. I've already had one so called "hardcore" PvPer get offended and lose sleep over my description of hard core PvPers. I am now a kindler and gentler forum poster.
BTW, I AM a hardcore PvPer. The difference with me and many "hardcore" PvPers on this forum is that I PvP in FPS games with other hard core PvPers that WANT to PvP. I don't force my PvP game style preference on PvEers in MMORPGs who are either not interested in PvP or have not developed PvP skills because it is not their game style preference. And whereas some of you see a challenge in that, I see it as a bully mentality that offers no challenge whatsoever.
Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by free2play Nobody hates PvP. People don't like forced PvP. It's a shoddy way to throttle weak PvE content. Having to stop and entertain some jughead when all you logged in to do was chop some trees or farm some hides.
Why not beat the guy (or lose) and go about your business. You win some you lose some. YOu can even run, I'm sure there is another node right around the corner. Is it that big of a deal?
Because in almost every PVP game favors the ganker over the gankee, he who attacks first and all usually has a decided advantage, and all too often, people only attack those they know they can't lose to due to level disparities, superior numbers etc. (and in some games, this is very smart strategy)
PVP really never should be "fun" like a game, it should have consequences that really hurt, therefore discouraging people from doing it unless absolutely necessary, you know, sort of like real life. Hence I favor titles such as EVE vs others that take a more sport like mentality.
Fact is I sort of suck at PVP, probably in the bottom 20%, therefore I avoid it like the plague and if I must PVP, only if I can make sure I have an unfair advantage over you somehow, either in terms of gear I've earned (or purchased), levels, or number of friends I have brought with. If at all possible, I will do everything possible so that you never, ever win, or even have a chance to win.
And when you lose, I want you to really feel it, so much so that you are discouraged from trying it again, at least until you come more prepared than I am.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™ "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Biodth88 It's not that I don't like pvp. It's just I'm not always in the mood for it. I would love it if an mmo had 2 channels per server, (of course you couldn't just switch immediately cause that would defeat the purpose) one channel for pve and one for pvp. So there wouldn't be a need for separate servers and I can do my world pvp when I want to and just pve when I'm not in the mood. Sometimes I just don't want to deal with some douche just killing me to be a douche. It's like having sex with your girlfriend, its awesome and feels great and then all of a sudden some random guy busts into your bedroom and starts talking to her, it ruins the mood and pisses you off. Not that you would ever be in the mood for that to happen lol its just an example of how I feel when I'm not in the mood for pvp and someone attacks me while I'm questing.
You don't know me well enough. I asked the last man that did that to join, and it became a weekly thing....I miss 'couples nights' as it came to be known.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---NZXT Phantom 410 CaseIntel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHzAsus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0 Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
I don't 'hate' PvP.
I have a fulltime job in a competitive business. I get my fill of intrigue, backstabbing and social navigation IRL.
For recreational purposes I enjoy PvP games such as tennis, golf and chess. I can also enjoy computergames that involve PvP as long as they are played on a level playingfield just like golf or chess.
I am NOT enjoying a recreational game of chess where my opponent have 3 pawns and a king while I have 15 queens in front of my king. I feel the same about gear/level dependent pc-games (including mmo's).
There is NO lessons to be learned in a chessgame with 3 pawns vs 15 queens except for: 'Meh... Useless and I will not spend anymore time with this.)
No hate involved, but this is why games like LoL are successful while most gear/levelbased pvp mmo's struggle.
We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!(repeat ad infinitum)
Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by emperorwings Getting ganked while trying to plant wheat
look at that..
at least you already have a game that suits you .
a lot of us are still waiting for ours.
-i dont like being content without my consent
-PvP is stressful especially when you have to deal with cheaters, hackers, or rude smack talking griefers.
-PvP ruins PvE when pvp balancing impacts PvE diversity and fun
Hell here is a list of mmos that prove pvp and pve should not mix.
1. Warhammer Online, it's supposed to be a PVP (RvR) based game, but because it also had to have pve added in, both sucked, badly. And it's now nearing death. Think of how much better pvp would have been without all the garbage pve they added. They could have finished adding REAL siege engines, like the towers you see in the game, those were supposed to work. Or they could have made the pvp zones 4x bigger without all those damn pve only zones. The pve content ruined that game through and through.
2. LOTRO, this is a very decent PVE focused game, but the pvp area it has is so badly imbalanced that words simply can't convey the stupidity of the developers in charge of it. And so it's all but abandoned by the development team now because trying to balance it, without making the pve players angry proved to be too much.
3. Eve Online, yes I said eve online. One of my favorite mmos of all time (Before the CEO went full on Microsoft levels of evil.) The pvp was fantastic, but god did that game have some of the worst pve content known to date.
I could honestly list just about ANY mmo with both pve and pvp in it on this list and explain why one, the other, or both were absolute garbage. Not a single mmo I've ever played (And I've played just about every one at some point.) has ever done both to where they can both be considered even slightly above marginal, at least one of the two has to have been dreadful.
what is the issue with you wanting to FORCE other players to play your way...
oh i want to pvp... that means you have to as well, because i said so.
i always play on rp-pvp servers when available. I loved WAR (until the 2 faction thing showed its massive flaw that everyone could see coming). I pvp'ed in AV for 14 hours straight. I was rank 13 on a healing priest in Vanilla WoW.
I love murdering other players in game.
but sometimes... i log and just want to cut down some damn trees, or ride around. so do other players... why should they be forced to run from me? why cant they have a server where if they dont want to pvp they dont have to? why cant their be joinable factions... so players that want to stay out of the player conflicts can?
why must my fun include those who dont enjoy it?
it doesnt have to.
play on a pvp server, against pvp'ers. stop being a scrub and trying to whine your way into forced pvp on everyone
I can't say that I hate PvP, what I dislike are the people that only play PvP. Mast of them act like it's something important, more important that any other part of the game. If I am defeated, that's cool. I want to know how you defeated me; I am not intrested in listening to you do a verbal happy dance or the egotistic "I pawned you because you suck" types. Honestly, I like PvP. PvP is a great way to get better at the game you are playing. It's the people playing PvP that suck.
Originally posted by DamonVile I don't hate pvp, I enjoy it very much...I just don't really like mmo pvp and don't want it to be the focus of what I do when I log into an mmo to play with friends. My gaming life doesn't revolve around competition and showing I'm better than someone. Sometimes I just want to kick back relax and kill npc things while chatting with friends. That's what I'm looking for in most mmos. When I want pvp I tend to look for games that aren't based on RNGs and gear grinds for better stats.
For the most part I'm the same way. I enjoy EVE and a few others, but for the most part PVP in your average MMO is determined by who has the best gear or who had the most time to grind. Not interested, especially when that crap spills out into open world.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Electro057 Originally posted by Biodth88 It's not that I don't like pvp. It's just I'm not always in the mood for it. I would love it if an mmo had 2 channels per server, (of course you couldn't just switch immediately cause that would defeat the purpose) one channel for pve and one for pvp. So there wouldn't be a need for separate servers and I can do my world pvp when I want to and just pve when I'm not in the mood. Sometimes I just don't want to deal with some douche just killing me to be a douche. It's like having sex with your girlfriend, its awesome and feels great and then all of a sudden some random guy busts into your bedroom and starts talking to her, it ruins the mood and pisses you off. Not that you would ever be in the mood for that to happen lol its just an example of how I feel when I'm not in the mood for pvp and someone attacks me while I'm questing.
Not everyone has the same goal when playing a game, especially in a well designed MMO. What SOE/LA did not get was that some players do actually WANT to play the moisture farmers (crafter or other non-combat role). Unfortunately, in FFA PvP, players lose those options even if it is due to just a few "bad apples." Do I say that I hate pvp? Yes. Do I truly hate pvp? Not really, or I wouldn't choose to participate in it from time to time. Under what circumstances have I chosen to PvP? 1. Against another guildie who wanted to PvP one on one and wasn't a random pvp request from someone just because I was nearby. 2. Defending a fort with a guild (I don't like the idea of player houses/cities being able to be destroyed but I'm ok with buildings designed to be part of pvp or server cities being controllable by factions as part of pvp....and have a concept involving "control" of player cities that is too detailed to get into here) 3. Large battles involving several guilds on a server (so large we lagged out/crashed/bugged the server). 4. I have participated in PvP in instanced settings in which players are put against other players in the same level range. 5. In console games where the online multiplayer portion is group PvP.
What I don't get are players who demand FFA PvP. To me, the ideal method is each player being able to determine whether or not he or she wants to be open for PvP. I don't understand why there are PvPers that have a problem with this concept. If players want FFA, they will mark themselves for PvP and be able to have a FFA with other players who have marked themselves for PvP, If FFA PvP is so popular than there should be enough players on the server to PvP with. Does it really bother people that much that they can't one shot kill the player whose goal in the game is to be the best crafter on the server? Or is it just because they don't like crafting that they don't get why anyone else would want to craft so it is unacceptable that someone else might actually enjoy crafting and only want to craft in the game (or swap out crafting for PvE or any other game choices that are different and don't involve PvP)?
As far as what 150 people can do besides PvP? Some people do like to build and manage player cities. Some people like to stand around socializing. Some people like to run around as groups doing quests together (if you can find an MMO where player levels don't mess up the xp from grouping). Some people like to actually roleplay. Some get together to kill bosses and run dungeons (this may sound like raiding but I didn't have that concept in SWG since max group size was large and always the same, there wasn't really a concept of "end game," and if a newbie wanted to fight hard stuff/could find a group to help/didn't mind dying they could try any "dungeon"/boss in the game; beyond that I've never really stuck with a game long enough to deal with "end game" because the concept of running the same dungeons over and over again to get "elite loot" just so one can run the same dungeons over and over again also doesn't make sense to me). Some like working together to create a group of top quality vendors that cover all player crafted items (food, armor, weapons, pets, etc.).
AoW has some good mechanics towards PVP but it's still not there. I don't have a problem with a game's PVP if there is risk to the attacker. There needs to be a real reason fo him to want to engage. Any game that simply allows for a player to kill a weaker player with no repercussions is bad. There needs to be anti griefing/ganking mechanics but not such that they prevent it, but rather deter it. What I mean is, There is noting preventing player A from attacking Player B, but since Player A out ranks/levels/powers (what have you) Player B by a large margin, then for Player A to attack player B shoud come with risk. It's a dishonorable fight if Player A provokes it. So player A would run the risk of losing what ever PVP currency the game uses (honor?) for doing dishonorable acts. Also, wanted lists. at a certain level of dishonor, a player should be attacked by any and all guard NPCs in all towns and cities, Also, being on a wanted list means a reward for the players who kill him for a certain period of time. AoWs Jail is also a good option. Basically, the game needs incentives for NOT ganking. Imagine in any society, what it would be like if anyone stronger than you has the legal right to kill/steal from you simply because he's stronger. Of course, there needs to be honorable PVP and that should be defined also, When it is ok to attack some one in the open.
But there is also another aspect. PVP favors the combat characters. OK, so you want to play a sandbox. but it has FFA PVP. Good luck with that crafter. There should be ways for every character to leverage his particular skill set against another player. Imagine a sandbox game where you have skills that revolve around playing the economy. Some warrior ganks you and camps you. So, now you are able to get payback. Well, that warrior can kick your ass all over the game. But what happens if you can perform a "market attack" against him? Loot items right out of his bank, or attach a wage garnish so 10% of everything he loots for a period of time goes to the non combat player? PVP in these MMOs, is just not developed enough to where it can be forced.
Originally posted by bcbully It's not like you die IRL. It's a game sometimes you win sometimes you lose. Is it because - You lose a lot? You can't get better? It's scary? To much adrenalin? It makes you angry? PvP'rs are mean? Outside of "I just don't like it" which is not an explanation, this is what I ask myself when I hear someone say "I wish there was no pvp" I mean to me PVP is the pinnacle off multiplayer gaming. You test your skills against mine. We use what we found in the world and see if it works. Why, please tell me. Maybe developers have done studies and stuff, but I haven't, I really don't get it.
I used to love PvP I really did, and I played DAoC religiously for over 2 years and the only reason why I quit was because Trials of Atlantis ruined the PvP. Once an area with plenty of people became a ghost town because they were all leveling artifacts.
Fast forward to WoW and all through Vanilla I played on a PvP server but it was the first time I ever played an MMO where PvP was not consensual. (my 1st MMO was Asheron's Call and I played on a white server) For the most part this was not a problem because your first toon everyone was busy leveling so not as much random ganking and kill took place. Prior to The PvP patch when most PvP took place In and around Southshore and Tarren Mill the game remained fun. It wasn't until my 2nd character that I observed the ever increasing gank mentality followed by the "tea-bagging" of your corpse and the /emotes of flip off, /rude and so forth after someone killed you once you pulled a mob or 3 and were at half life. There was no such thing as a fair fight in open world PvP, 99% of the time was spent stalking, and waiting till you got ganked. IMO the 1% of the time where PvP was fun was not worth the 99% of the time it wasn't. Trying to to get into Blackrock was a nightmare at that tiem as well.
On top of this, my last 4 years in WoW were spent primarily and exclusive in Arena's, and to be quite honest I got burned out on it.
Currently my enjoyment in an MMO comes from exploring, running dungeons and finding the next piece of loot. That is what I enjoy the most and for the foreseeable future that is what I envision my love will be.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by zymurgeist Actually some people do hate PvP. The way you phrased the question isn't going to get you an answer why though. At least not one you can understand.
How should it be phrased? I'll change the title.
Well its your post and you can title it anyway you feel but in my experience though 14 years of MMO PvP, in an open PvP environment the chances you will be matched with a fair and equivalent opponent of the same level is nill to zero.
For me it comes down to what I enjoy, I could care less if I was interrupted 20 seconds or 30 minutes. When I am out farming, hunting and exploring I want to be farming, hunting and exploring so any interference in my preferred source of entertainment is a turnoff. Whether it be getting ganked, or having the servers go down for unexpected maintenance. I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it. It's really simple as that and its not the PvP that bothers me its the interruption of my entertainment.