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Triple-A sandbox with open-world, non-consensual PVP: If you build it, they will come. And stay.

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  • ZzadZzad Palma de MallorcaPosts: 1,316Member Uncommon

    If the PvP is Non-consensual, i won´t ven bother trying the game out.

    So SOE is doing the right thing.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,280Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    we cant agree on what AAA or sandbox means

    a lot of people in the thread don't even understand the concept.

     

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXPosts: 1,348Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DocBrody
    Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs

    If the PvP is Non-consensual, no they will not stay.

    Most MMO gamers dont like PvP that is on someone elses terms.

     Repeating this big fat lie which has been running for years won´t make it true

    it has been running for years because it has been true and well know since pre-Trammel UO.

    All die, so die well.

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,084Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by TribeofOne
    we cant agree on what AAA or sandbox means

    a lot of people in the thread don't even understand the concept.

     

    Oh make no mistake, i do.

    Look at my above post to see what a true sandbox game is, Age Of Wushu isn't a true sandbox nor is AA and neither will EQN be imo.

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon Originally posted by exwin Great, make PvP servers and PvE servers and everyone is happy. Problem solved.
    Yup, not hard to do.
    On contrary all the devs I talk to say its a pain in the ass to have 2 rule sets and 2 code branches - it is undesirable and much harder to support, for very little gain usually.

    Things that seem not a big deal from a players perspective are not always like that in reality.

     




    This isn't something that's exclusive to games, it's a common thing in most applications. Admin users have a different set of abilities from regular users. Different applications have different permissions depending on the user who starts them. Applications may have different options available depending on whether the database responds or not. Yes, having two separate code bases increases complexity, but saying that user behaviors, permissions or abilities being different in different scenarios is some special kind of difficult is a cop out. Anyone who has written software as anything other than a hobby has had to deal with this.

    It is just hard or harder to make skills and abilities relatively balanced across many different scenarios as it would be to have different behaviors for skills and abilities in the different scenarios. It just depends on how the developer wants things to work. If a developer wants to have a consistent behavior for all abilities across all types of game play scenarios, it's because that fits the vision of the game they are making. That's why WoW has mostly the same behavior in PvE and PvP, even though they are perfectly capable of distinguishing between the two types of combat, and have only slight differences in skills between the two types of combat. It's why GW2's combat is largely different between PvE and PvP. It's because that's how the developers want to do it.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,463Member Uncommon

    Problem with calling a game sandbox is not so much if it is or isnt, its how much of it is. Take SWG, lots of people played it and the words sandbox game was used to describe it. Now people think thats sandbox when only a % of it was. SWG also had themepark mechanics. Same with any game that has a % of sandbox elements. So the play base start saying this is a sandbox game and it becomes something different for each player, when in fact sandbox is not the game but an idea that comes down to one thing. A player can build, change, some part of the game, be it PvP, char development, skills or world. When you have the freedom to create something different with a set of tools you have been given by the developer you now have something sandbox. 

    EQN will not be pure sandbox. Structured classes and skills, quests written the same for everyone or classes or a world you cant change. Its rare to find a game thats 100% pure sandbox. EQN at best will be a % of sandbox, question is what parts of the game will players have creative control over?


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,084Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle

    Problem with calling a game sandbox is not so much if it is or isnt, its how much of it is. Take SWG, lots of people played it and the words sandbox game was used to describe it. Now people think thats sandbox when only a % of it was. SWG also had themepark mechanics. Same with any game that has a % of sandbox elements. So the play base start saying this is a sandbox game and it becomes something different for each player, when in fact sandbox is not the game but an idea that comes down to one thing. A player can build, change, some part of the game, be it PvP, char development, skills or world. When you have the freedom to create something different with a set of tools you have been given by the developer you now have something sandbox. 

    EQN will not be pure sandbox. Structured classes and skills, quests written the same for everyone or classes or a world you cant change. Its rare to find a game thats 100% pure sandbox. EQN at best will be a % of sandbox, question is what parts of the game will players have creative control over?

    Wurm Online is a full sandbox game, EQN is not so already Smed has made a booboo and is setting himself up for flack.

    He should of said Sandpark or Hybrid like ArcheAge and Age Of Wulin.

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  • nothuman24nothuman24 Phoenix, AZPosts: 36Member

    The way i see it:

     

    -Target non-competitive pve'ers. Get them to stick around by adding a few cutting edge game components for end-game, that differ from the other end-less supply of pve centered mmos to maximize end-game player interest. Add a few pvp servers to maximize profit = Strong initial profit / profitable short-term.

     

    -Target competitive pvpers and create one of a few good vast sandbox games centered around pvp = Strong long-term playerbase and image as developer / profitable long-term.

     

    Thoughts?

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon ParisPosts: 2,084Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nothuman24

    The way i see it:

     

    -Target non-competitive pve'ers. Get them to stick around by adding a few cutting edge game components for end-game, that differ from the other end-less supply of pve centered mmos to maximize end-game player interest. Add a few pvp servers to maximize profit = Strong initial profit / profitable short-term.

     Don't think you understand lol, EQ already has vast amount of PVE's, they will play anything that has EQ all over it.

    -Target competitive pvpers and create one of a few good vast sandbox games centered around pvp = Strong long-term playerbase and image as developer / profitable long-term.

     

    Thoughts?

    EQN centered around PVP, no thanks.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    EQN would still thrive if there were no PVPers but EQ has always or nearly always had some form of PVP. PVP servers but don't have the game built around PVP which i really don't think it will be.

     

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  • RictisRictis UnknownPosts: 1,231Member Uncommon

    I am a casual gamer now as I get older due to work/family and other random things coming up during my play times. I used to never mind pvp as much 10-15 years ago, now though I just want to spend what little time I have to myself and enjoy the game. I can't be bothered to always find a hiding spot everytime I have to step away from my keyboard. I want to be able to AFK in peace knowing that I don't have to rush back or log off to prevent some random ego driven jerk from ganking me because I was grabbing  a drink or heating up some food.

    I think competition is necessary for end game, but I also feel that the competition doesn't have to be PVP focused. Sorry although I think PVP can be fun, forcing it on players will take out a majority of casual gamers out of the mix. From my experience PVP servers are usually the first to become empty, and then when you try to roll on them after they get "fixed" you are under leveld and camped until you can fight back... which normally means not until your max level with decent gear. Not sure how EQnext will work, but in EQ a spell level ahead of you is a huge difference in power.

    In the end, I am perfectly fine with being called a carebear if I can enjoy my entire time in the game, without wasting it on corpse runs because some player that is capped got bored and decided to farm me for no reason whatsoever.

  • jdnycjdnyc Long Island City, NYPosts: 1,696Member
    Originally posted by Wakygreek

    I am a casual gamer now as I get older due to work/family and other random things coming up during my play times. I used to never mind pvp as much 10-15 years ago, now though I just want to spend what little time I have to myself and enjoy the game. I can't be bothered to always find a hiding spot everytime I have to step away from my keyboard. I want to be able to AFK in peace knowing that I don't have to rush back or log off to prevent some random ego driven jerk from ganking me because I was grabbing  a drink or heating up some food.

    I think competition is necessary for end game, but I also feel that the competition doesn't have to be PVP focused. Sorry although I think PVP can be fun, forcing it on players will take out a majority of casual gamers out of the mix. From my experience PVP servers are usually the first to become empty, and then when you try to roll on them after they get "fixed" you are under leveld and camped until you can fight back... which normally means not until your max level with decent gear. Not sure how EQnext will work, but in EQ a spell level ahead of you is a huge difference in power.

    In the end, I am perfectly fine with being called a carebear if I can enjoy my entire time in the game, without wasting it on corpse runs because some player that is capped got bored and decided to farm me for no reason whatsoever.

    I understand your concerns.  My question to you and really anyone that has these concerns, " how much experience do you have with sandbox games?  Are you drawing your conclusions based on Themepark experiences?"

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon
    I have exactly the same concerns. What I want to avoid is what happened to me in Xsyon: gankers hanging around the newbie spawn/re-spawn area, and killing me over and over, as I re-spawn over and over.

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • RictisRictis UnknownPosts: 1,231Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Wakygreek

    I am a casual gamer now as I get older due to work/family and other random things coming up during my play times. I used to never mind pvp as much 10-15 years ago, now though I just want to spend what little time I have to myself and enjoy the game. I can't be bothered to always find a hiding spot everytime I have to step away from my keyboard. I want to be able to AFK in peace knowing that I don't have to rush back or log off to prevent some random ego driven jerk from ganking me because I was grabbing  a drink or heating up some food.

    I think competition is necessary for end game, but I also feel that the competition doesn't have to be PVP focused. Sorry although I think PVP can be fun, forcing it on players will take out a majority of casual gamers out of the mix. From my experience PVP servers are usually the first to become empty, and then when you try to roll on them after they get "fixed" you are under leveld and camped until you can fight back... which normally means not until your max level with decent gear. Not sure how EQnext will work, but in EQ a spell level ahead of you is a huge difference in power.

    In the end, I am perfectly fine with being called a carebear if I can enjoy my entire time in the game, without wasting it on corpse runs because some player that is capped got bored and decided to farm me for no reason whatsoever.

    I understand your concerns.  My question to you and really anyone that has these concerns, " how much experience do you have with sandbox games?  Are you drawing your conclusions based on Themepark experiences?"

    I am basing this off of every MMO that I have played. I usually roll on PVE and PVP servers to see the difference in gameplay, I do this because sometimes the PVP servers offer a better experience. I have played almost every MMO since EQ originally launched, there is a few I missed in between but from what I hear the problem persisted. I played Eve for a while too with some friends, and I was pod popped within safe space. I was under the impression that you didnt get as much resistance until you were close to 0 space. My point is, I can't worry about being ganked when I want to take a 5 minute AFK, I don't want to have to log off just to log back on to prevent getting ganked. There has to be a better way to implement PVP where more casual gamers don't feel like its closer to work then entertainment.

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by exwin
    Great, make PvP servers and PvE servers and everyone is happy. Problem solved.

    Yup, not hard to do.

    On contrary all the devs I talk to say its a pain in the ass to have 2 rule sets and 2 code branches - it is undesirable and much harder to support, for very little gain usually.

    Things that seem not a big deal from a players perspective are not always like that in reality.

     

    This genre nets these people a lot of money, perhaps they should work for it?  I don't give a damn if it's hard to implement, they want my business, then they need to take these kinds of things into consideration.  If EQ could to it successfully on their budget, then modern games can too.

    image
  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by exwin
    Great, make PvP servers and PvE servers and everyone is happy. Problem solved.

    Yup, not hard to do.

    On contrary all the devs I talk to say its a pain in the ass to have 2 rule sets and 2 code branches - it is undesirable and much harder to support, for very little gain usually.

    Things that seem not a big deal from a players perspective are not always like that in reality.

     

    actually its not hard at all IF YOU DO THAT FROM THE START. it is only hard when you want to do that as an afterthought when you have already a lot of codding finished.

  • BenediktBenedikt PraguePosts: 1,406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SavageHorizon
    Originally posted by olepi

    This sounds like it might work. Except, how many games have separate PvE and PvP servers, where the PvP servers are thriving and full?

     

    edit: and it doesn''t help players like me that want to do both

    If the PVPer are not enough to fill up there own pvp servers then that's down to the lack of people wanting to PVP, why should PVE's suffer for the lack of PVPers?

     

    +1000E1000000000
  • BizzylBizzyl West Monroe, LAPosts: 5Member Uncommon

    I will never understand the endless babble from pvpers attempting to force pvp on pve'ers.  EQ had pvp servers and pve servers, why is that not good enough.  We pve'ers arent trying to make all servers pve only.  I am baffled.  

    I will admit I hate pvp in mmo's and believe that pvp in mmo;s dumbs down combat as pvp balancing is too difficult and won't allow for interesting classes in general, like the Disciple and bloodmage in Vanguard, and the bard in EQ.  Instead we get WoW/Rift/ SWTOR. ets, where classes and combat are based on the same builders/finshers, whack a mole crap, over and over

    What I want is a sandbox pve game with no pvp at all on PvE servers and classes that are not handcuffed by bs pvp balancing. Which means I want levitation, fast runspeed buffs, invisibility spells,  various damage shields and runes that prevent damage, crowd control classes, snares, etc.  .  I want classes that are well defined and have specific jobs in a grp, not like Guild Wars 2, please no.    I want to be able to build a house, have many meaningful crafting options, and limited instancing if any at all.  

    I know there has not been a true pve game, balanced around and created strictly for pve since Vanguard ( yes, Vanguard has no pop, blah, blah, sucks,  blah, blah, but not because the game is not innovative, just wasn;t finished and still buggy as hell),

    I can only hope there will be a game made for we pround "carebears", on day.

    thanks for reading,

  • RoyalPhunkRoyalPhunk Vancouver, BCPosts: 174Member

    Lets take EvE, in my mind the most hard core PVP game, even there PVP is not forced on PVE'rs. Is there some danger in empire, sure you could be war decced or suicide killed but most of these things are avoidable with minimal effort, all in all if I want to avoid PVP in EvE I can do it without even working too hard. I do not think its impossible to develop a system that accomplishes the same goal in other games.

    Archeage for example has this designed in a similar way, part of the world is open PVP part of it is not. You can still commit crimes in the PVE areas but you can be attacked when doing so, branded as a pirate and put in jail or chased by every guard in every area. In EvE they made it suicide to kill someone in a non PVP zone and thats what they would have to do in EQN. You can still commit the act (Sandbox) but you will absolutely pay for it.

    Without this kind of thinking put into its design not a sandbox. Restrictions on what you can do are un-sandbox in the MMO space, and because of that you will never have a PVE sandbox as it is envisioned by mmo standards simple because what PVE players are will to accept only goes so far and certainly doesn't stretch into sandbox territory. Feel free to go play minecraft though that is the closest thing I can think of that meets your definition of a PVE sandbox.

    Lastly I will mention that PVE games are disposable 1 month dungeon crawlers and expect for one game, have zero longevity. I think longevity is what Sony is aiming for with this. They will have to do it right, respect that not everyone wants to PVP, but don't fully prevent it from being possible. Sandboxes have to have good economies, good economies come from things being destroyed, even PVEr's things.

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    Pirates of the Burning Sea (PoTBS) has an innovative PvP mechanism.

    It is all PvE, until one faction starts building points on a specific port. Once that port has been attacked enough, it develops a red circle around it, and this is the PvP zone (not consensual). Anyone trying to get in or out of that port has to run the PvP zone. Getting sunk means losing your ship and its cargo. Eventually, if enough attacks are made, the port goes into a giant port battle, and can be flipped to the other faction.

    However, if you don't want to PvP, you don't have to. Just stay out of the PvP zones.

    I believe that any game that allows ganking on players without their consent, will be doomed to fail or have a very small population. Game subs bear this out. Only one popular game is full PvP, all the others are not.

    ------------
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  • FaarmMercyFaarmMercy Washington DC, DCPosts: 32Member
    Originally posted by RoyalPhunk

    Lets take EvE, in my mind the most hard core PVP game, even there PVP is not forced on PVE'rs. Is there some danger in empire, sure you could be war decced or suicide killed but most of these things are avoidable with minimal effort, all in all if I want to avoid PVP in EvE I can do it without even working too hard. I do not think its impossible to develop a system that accomplishes the same goal in other games.

    Archeage for example has this designed in a similar way, part of the world is open PVP part of it is not. You can still commit crimes in the PVE areas but you can be attacked when doing so, branded as a pirate and put in jail or chased by every guard in every area. In EvE they made it suicide to kill someone in a non PVP zone and thats what they would have to do in EQN. You can still commit the act (Sandbox) but you will absolutely pay for it.

    Without this kind of thinking put into its design not a sandbox. Restrictions on what you can do are un-sandbox in the MMO space, and because of that you will never have a PVE sandbox as it is envisioned by mmo standards simple because what PVE players are will to accept only goes so far and certainly doesn't stretch into sandbox territory. Feel free to go play minecraft though that is the closest thing I can think of that meets your definition of a PVE sandbox.

    Lastly I will mention that PVE games are disposable 1 month dungeon crawlers and expect for one game, have zero longevity. I think longevity is what Sony is aiming for with this. They will have to do it right, respect that not everyone wants to PVP, but don't fully prevent it from being possible. Sandboxes have to have good economies, good economies come from things being destroyed, even PVEr's things.

    Exactly this!

    My friends, no one wants to force PVP upon those looking for exclusive PVE in their gameplay. Feast your eyes upon this map.

    http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/verite/influence.png

    That big black blob is the middle is known as high-sec. There, it's (relatively) safe for your casual spacefarer to go about his business without being ganked (this is also where a vast majority of the player base can be found). The outskirts of the map are where player empires are built, and where the richest resources are found.

    Personally, with Smed being such an EVE fan, I would not be surprised if EQN follows this model (and I also hope hope hope for a single server), but I'd also add that it would be cool if these pockets of civilization were actually built around the racial starter cities. We'd have our old Qeynos, Freeport, Kelethin, et. all, and most folks would generally stick to these bastions of civilization, venturing into the wilds in groups for short times, or building their crafting empire from within the (relative) safety of the city walls. It would make the main cities really feel like giant hubs of activity.

    Meanwhile, those adventurous spirits unafraid of the untamed wilderness could erect their own little oasis towns in the wastes of the Desert of Ro, or bandit hideouts nestled deep within the woods of Kithicor.

    Would it be possible to get ganked if you're not playing safe? Of course! But that's the point. You cannot expect this game to have a functioning economy if adventurers were not replacing their gear on a regular basis. It's simple economics. Supply and demand!

    Not only do you need a steady demand to keep the economy going, but this is very literally the LIFE BLOOD of the crafting profession. Without a need to supply would be adventurers with gear, how would a crafter ever sell his wares?

    Simple answer, he wouldn't.

    Most of EVE's player base lives in the security of high-sec, just as I hope most of Norrath's population lives in and around the major racial starting cities. This is a GOOD thing! It creates the sense of a living, breathing city (still open to the possibility of a back-alley shanking in the shadier sections of town... I'm looking at YOU, Freeport), while also creating the very real sense of adventure and excitement we all experienced in our first adventurers traveling the great expanses of Antonica and Faydwer (and Odus... I guess...).

    If Smed is taking his ques from EVE, then there will be something there for all of us, my friends, PVPer and PVE-er alike. Let us end these silly anti-social, neckbeardy, passive-aggressive jabs at one another, and bask in the possibilities of a Brave New Norrath!

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    Just like DAOC, where there were large zones for PvE only, and large zones for PvP. Resources, etc, were put into the PvP zone so people will want to go there, even if they don't want to PvP. This is by far the best model; those who don't want to PvP don't have to, and those that do want to PvP can.

    It just prevents someone from attacking another player who doesn't want to PvP. If you don't restrict that, then you will have another niche game with low population.

    ------------
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  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member

    What's the point of killing in a safe zone though if all you do is get blacklisted?

     

    If we're going that far, I think there needs to be a reward though. I see no point to killing someone in a safe zone to get nothing except being locked out of the game. Sort of like in real life, provide some sort of incentive. But oh, if you stay clear and no one kills you and the timer fades, you just got a piece of loot at no repurcussion. Was there a risk? Yep, you took the risk, were blacklisted from cities for 4-8 hours, and managed to stay around long enough and dodge trouble that it faded off. (Similar to Grand Theft Auto warrants, I suppose)

     

    tl;dr: there needs to be a reward for killing players if they are going to do non-consensual PvP even with safe zones that have high punishments because otherwise there is no point

     

    EDIT: I am definitely on board highly valued crafting materials/etc being plased into Open PvP zones. Want to get that awesome piece you need to craft that sexy item? Go into that PvP zone and go get it. Enjoy your journey, adventurers! Now that would be fun.

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