Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?
Since PS4 can do this:
How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?
The period of rapidly advanced graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?
Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not.
Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?
Since PS4 can do this:
How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?
The period of rapidly advanced graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?
Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not.
Consoles get the same updates to performance via firmware and optimization changes as PC graphics cards do. Anyone can easily see the difference between early console generation releases and end of generation releases. So not "fixed in time."
As much as improved hardware over time on PC? Of course not.
But the difference this time around will likely be smaller and smaller as the "edge" of what is physically possible using these materials is quickly being reached.
Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?
Since PS4 can do this:
How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?
The period of rapidly advanced graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?
Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not.
Bingo. It's not how much better it can look as much as how much more can be displayed while maintaining a high quality. Those PS4 shots do look good, credit where it's due, but they're limited to the 2 or three detailed figures in the scene. Evolving PC power will mean a dozen or more figures on the screen, each with all the normal mapping, subscattered surface rendering, and other graphical whizbangery higher ram and higher resolution can achieve.
Also, 1080p may look good when watching the Superbowl, but that's a downgrade from what a computer can do.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Honestly, how much higher do you think graphics in video games can go?
Since PS4 can do this:
How much higher do you think PC graphics are going to advance in the next 5-8 years?
The period of rapidly advanced graphical fidelity is coming to an end. Why do YOU think both Microsoft and Sony have put their focus on connectivity, gameplay, and social integrations?
Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not.
Consoles get the same updates to performance via firmware and optimization changes as PC graphics cards do. Anyone can easily see the difference between early console generation releases and end of generation releases. So not "fixed in time."
As much as improved hardware over time on PC? Of course not.
But the difference this time around will likely be smaller and smaller as the "edge" of what is physically possible using these materials is quickly being reached.
Firmware updates mean nothing when hardware is stuck where it is. As for your comment in red, thats just a lack of vision. Heat is the biggest problem for pushing tech faster and harder. What if PCs moved towards better cooling systems in the next few years. Motherboards that could house 2-4 CPUs. Think of a PC with 2 to 4, 6 core CPUs running it. Things are getting cheaper to make so it could happen. Or video cards being made that run in parallel as standard. Or PC tech linked in with server farms. I could go on and on. If I thought them up as just an average IT guy, I am sure someone is working on it.
Red: The second you design the game around the controller you have dumbed it down for the PC gamers. This is outside what you can do in a game. I will give an eg. You are melee and a caster starts to blast you with fire spells. So you hit tab to switch targets, click your charge skill and at the same time you open your last bag and click the fire resist pot in your bag and by the time you do your charge skill has you at the mage and you click the macro that stuns the guy and at the same time yells "NEED A HEAL" Because the mage has you 1/2 health. Do that with a controller? No!
If not you better not put console and PC gamers on the same server as the PC gamer has an edge. Or remove the fire resist pots and remove the mecros etc and now its fair for both and dumbed down. EDIT: but this also makes people who use gaming mice and keyboards kings as they can still make macros =-)
Yellow: I agree 100% F2P can do a lot for console MMOs but that does not stop the fact they normally get less players and because the updates are not as good for the console as the PC you lose more players.
Pink: Ya I know about them, Im a IT guy but we are a long way off to having the world on fiber. Even a metro city like I live in... all the building need to be redone before they can support it. We are a long way off.
Like I said in a post a few pages back. When consoles dont need to dumb things down and tech really does not stand in the way of updates being as good for the PC... Im all for playing a MMO on a console but we are far from that.
First, sorry to anyone trying to follow this as I keep deleting old quotes. I hate the quote tower, I'd rather keep my posts recent and relevant to points made.
To address your red section.
Lets begin by saying you are describing a series of actions 1% of players might even consider, let alone use. I've played tons of PC MMO's and the average user is not coming anywhere near that in terms of pushing inputs to their limits. That doesn't detract from your point, so lets actually discuss THAT. You can, absolutely, do any of those things with a controller. It requires the same amount of keybinding control you get in most PC games. You could shift targets with a bumper button, use charge with a letter button, have your res pots hotkeyed to a D-Pad along with a self made message that is set to play once you reach 50%. DA:O allowed for something pretty similar in its NPC controls...you could set certain actions to health and mana level triggers. Quite literally, its not that hard to program a game that allows you to do a /group Need heal! once health reaches 60% or less.
This is what I mean about designing a game with intelligent systems. Give your players tools. Deep, meaningful tools. Then consider how you can tie using them to a controller. Its really not that hard to do. Most games simply do not do it, because you'd have to spend as much time on UI and inputs as you do on the game. PC game developers ALREADY do this, because of just how much can be done with a keyboard. Its a failing of the console market itself that our inputs aren't often considered as deeply. Take COD, for example. Something as simple as changing the R3 stick button from knife to crouch wasn't even considered for a long time. Better still would be ACTUAL control over your keybinds. Then being able to macro non-combat actions to them. Like a radio call complete with radar ping to alert your team anytime you, say, toss a grenade.
I didn't delve too deeply into what options ARE available for consoles and their inputs. I don't feel thats as important yet as simply getting you to see that you should reconsider how deep you think that well actually is. Stop looking at the industry and seeing what they hand you, and think about what COULD be done.
Yellow
I figured you'd probably see eye to eye with me on that point. I do see what you are saying about players, but I think you're looking at things globally and not locally. Yes, there are way more users on PC across the world for most MMO games. But that also ignores the fact that many cultures refuse to own an xbox to begin with. And that Sony really botched last gen. You don't really need millions of players to make a game successful. You need to craft your game and budget around getting a larger number of regular users from a smaller pool.
You see, most F2P games (we'll focus on these since its the clear choice for consoles) monetize their games around the ideal that they will have 5 millions players try it and only 50K buying. Its why price points are so high..its hard to get someone interested in giving them money. There are lots of reason for that, but one reason certainly is that people are leery about using their services to make the transaction. People aren't afraid at all to use the live or psn markets to buy things...it happens constantly. Just check out how many sales COD got for its personalization packs (skins for guns). Tons of sales. For something stupid. Its not that people are against spending money. Most will. Its that they need for it to be quick and easy and through someone they trust.
So it will be VERY easy to get a larger portion of your user base to spend money on a F2P console MMO. In fact, they could use a system like Wizard 101 to really push interest. Lets use WoW as a content template everyone understands. Say you get vanilla wow free. Then you can choose to pay 5 bucks for levels 51-55 and half of BC content. 5 again for the other half. So forth and so forth. Maybe 1$ for extra bank slots. 5$ for access to each new class added. They could even just sell new dungeons for a dollar each. Such a focused and small format would work well. People throw $1 at indie games all the time. A single dungeon isn't a ton of work. If you had even 500K players, thats a good chunk of money coming in steadily. All your team has to do is keep making small additions to the game. If the foundation of that game is solid, it will sell like hot cakes at a lower price point. Its easier to get those numbers when your market is willing to throw money away. PC gamers just aren't. You really have to pull massive player numbers in to make those sales on a PC.
Not so for a console.
Purple
Yes, things are going to have to change in a big way for the server farm thing to catch on. But I do think it will. For a variety of reasons. None of them are console or PC gaming.
Mobile gaming will lead this change.
Right now, the only thing holding that market back is the fact that you can't make powerful hardware small enough for a phone. They've done some amazing things...but a gaming PC they aren't. Local storage also makes it hard. BUT, if all the storage is handled on the server and all it needs is input from your phone..well....
A phone can do all the gaming WE can. A market that is, by and far, MUCH larger than all of our personal markets combined. They all love those casual games..but that is mostly a barrier to entry thing. Suppose a company pulls off a gamefly thing, wherein you pay a small monthly fee and get 100% access and play of all games in their library? Knowing you can pay 20$ a month and access AOC from your phone anywhere you get wireless? Then shift over to Darksiders? No local storage needed, just pick a game and play.
I feel that this sort of entity will smash records when it finally comes around. The moment it does, and people realize what the demand really is...you'll see a great push to upgrade. Google fiber type tech will surge as new companies try to get a piece of that cash cow. It doesn't take 10 years either...its a change that would take less than 2 once a market becomes realized.
PC, of course... what else? Why do consoles even exist today?
I simply wanted to say assuming its true that they're using the ForgeLight engine, the planetside 2 engine, everquest next should be grand. As a matter of fact, a big part of the reason I continue planetside 2 is the ForgeLight engine, its truly awesome. That's coming from a person who's never truly met a game engine he's liked.
The game will look great on the PS4. Apparently Planetside 2 will be running on the equivalent of "ultra" settings on the PC version. If you think that's going to hold EQN back... I don't even know what to say to you.
Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not.
Bingo. It's not how much better it can look as much as how much more can be displayed while maintaining a high quality. Those PS4 shots do look good, credit where it's due, but they're limited to the 2 or three detailed figures in the scene. Evolving PC power will mean a dozen or more figures on the screen, each with all the normal mapping, subscattered surface rendering, and other graphical whizbangery higher ram and higher resolution can achieve.
Also, 1080p may look good when watching the Superbowl, but that's a downgrade from what a computer can do.
Originally posted by jdnyc A console is a computer with a different OS. It's not a toaster.
Doesn't matter to me how sophisticated they are. That's not the point.
Some of what I am about to write is going to really irritate some People on these boards.....
Console Gaming Systems are designed by manufacturers for ONE purpose.... to suck as much money from Gamers as humanly possible. I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise. Nothing irks me more than people that take a excellent hobby and turn into a nightmare for profit. I despise and detest the manufacturers of Console Gaming Systems and I don't try to hide it. (MMO Devs have begun to do the same last few years and THAT has had me posting more rage around here than even I want to admit...)
And even if that wasn't the case.... even if Console Gaming was a good value, I don't see it that way at all..... I personally don't get along with most Console Gamers THEMSELVES. That's right.... I have a personality conflict with Console Gamers in general. Not all of thems, but most.The guys and gals I know in real life that have Console gaming as their passion generally speaking irritate the %^&* out of me.
The guys and gals I know in real life that are PC Gamers don't irritate me or bother me in general. That is part of the reason why I latched on to this community years ago. I felt comfortable here, I liked and even admired PCs in general and PC Gaming, and I got along well with PC Gamers.
Am I an A$$hat? Probably. Console Gamers probably don't like me anymore than I like them. I don't think they are evil or anything like that, they just get on my nerves. It's no secret that some groups of People just should not be put together with other groups of People, and PC Gamers and Console Gamers are a perfect example of this IMHO. HOW they play their games I find to be offensive, while they think I am crazy to play my games the way I do. We don't see gaming "eye to eye" on many details.
Most of my withdrawl from MMO Social activity, for example, isn't because I'm not trying, it's because MMOs have lots of former Console Gamers in them that are making general chat a sewer and their participation in groups is horrific. They seem to think they are playing a console game with all the god cheats on and think they are invincible, run like hades thru the dungeon on ahead of everyone else in the group, and then get killed and wonder why the Healer couldn't save them. Any long term MMO Gamer can tell that particular Player learned to play games on a Console FIRST, and failed to adapt to the environment and tactics of a MMO. Another example... all the damn smacktalk and bragging going on from some Players in MMOs now... years ago the only People I knew that did that stupid crap was Console Gamers and that always irritated me when they did, now we see all over the place in MMOs. I am sick of dealing with Players like that. (If you want to brag in a way I find acceptable, show your prowess thru ACTION ingame. Show just how skilled you are as a Player and I will give you the applause you crave so badly.)
And you want to put these two groups of Gamers together in a big way by creating a MMO that is both PC and Console?
I say screw that idea. I want NO part of it. It's already a Trainwreck as far as some of us are concerned.
If Console Gamers want a MMO, then let them have their own on Console Systems. They should be able to enjoy MMOs the way I do. Just keep the PC and Console Players separate.
I am also fairly certain a number of Console Gamers feel about us PC Gamers the same way.
(will People here hate me for what I just posted? Yes they will, but to me it's the truth and why I will not support the idea of mixing the PC and Console Gamer communities. It's kind of like how I disagree with the whole "RMT being OK in MMOs" thing. A bad idea is still a bad idea even if you spray it with perfume and dress it up.)
Originally posted by previn I can hear the screaming already, as the PS4 phanboies get their butts whooped in EQN by the mouse/keyboard users. Oh, how I can almost hear the nerf cries for this crowd.
If the gameplay doesn't require more than 10-16 spells to use ( see FFXIV for a fantastic controller UI with 16 easy to use spells and dozens more faster-to-use then clicking a button on a bar that isn't keybound ), then you can be sure the console player will win that fight lol...
Although I love owning a powerful PC rig, there's nothing quite like relaxing on the couch and playing a game with a controller.
I like couch potato gaming too, but I prefer to do it with my powerful PC that also has loads of user generated content and more options for graphic settings, etc.
Though if PS4 gets EQN and it runs better and prettier than on my PC, and I can eventually transfer my characters to a PC server I may play the ps4 version for the first year or two and let PC tech have a couple of years to advance before building a new one.
Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not.
Bingo. It's not how much better it can look as much as how much more can be displayed while maintaining a high quality. Those PS4 shots do look good, credit where it's due, but they're limited to the 2 or three detailed figures in the scene. Evolving PC power will mean a dozen or more figures on the screen, each with all the normal mapping, subscattered surface rendering, and other graphical whizbangery higher ram and higher resolution can achieve.
Also, 1080p may look good when watching the Superbowl, but that's a downgrade from what a computer can do.
Ummm what?
Take this shot for example:
Nevermind that it was from a pre-rendered video that I could do myself with Maya and the necessary know-how on my own computer. If it was an in-engine scene, the most you could expect to see is maybe 3 or 4 models with that level of detail on the screen at the same time on a console. Maybe even on a computer with today's tech. But a couple of months down the line, nVidia or AMD will have newer GPUs out that will render (no pun intended) a console's graphics power obsolete. Well within the PS4's lifecycle, and probably pretty early into it, computing power will exponentially increase, while the console will have the very same hardware it shipped with.
There's only so much firmware can do. A V6 isn't going to suddenly become a twin turbo V8 just because someone decides to put in a higher octane fuel. Same thing applies to firmware and hardware. It might run a little more efficiently, but you can't squeeze extra power into the hardware it just by wishing it into existence.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Although I love owning a powerful PC rig, there's nothing quite like relaxing on the couch and playing a game with a controller.
I like couch potato gaming too, but I prefer to do it with my powerful PC that also has loads of user generated content and more options for graphic settings, etc.
Though if PS4 gets EQN and it runs better and prettier than on my PC, and I can eventually transfer my characters to a PC server I may play the ps4 version for the first year or two and let PC tech have a couple of years to advance before building a new one.
Well I genrerally have my pc gaming rig set up in my bedroom. Having to bring it out to the living room just to play on the couch is quite a pain in my opinion.
That's why it'd be nice to be able to switch between the two depending on if I'd rather get comfortable on the couch or get serious on the PC with everything maxed out.
Originally posted by JedidiahTheadore Originally posted by Aceshighhhh Both for me.Although I love owning a powerful PC rig, there's nothing quite like relaxing on the couch and playing a game with a controller.
I like couch potato gaming too, but I prefer to do it with my powerful PC that also has loads of user generated content and more options for graphic settings, etc.
Though if PS4 gets EQN and it runs better and prettier than on my PC, and I can eventually transfer my characters to a PC server I may play the ps4 version for the first year or two and let PC tech have a couple of years to advance before building a new one.
Well I genrerally have my pc gaming rig set up in my bedroom. Having to bring it out to the living room just to play on the couch is quite a pain in my opinion.
That's why it'd be nice to be able to switch between the two depending on if I'd rather get comfortable on the couch or get serious on the PC with everything maxed out.
HDMI over ethernet and a long usb cable. It may be to much hassle for you to bother with (took me 15 minutes to run the wires and hook it up tho), but if you like PC gaming on a big screen tv its better than moving the PC around.
I get to play pc games with a controller and 7.1 surround in my living room and kb/m in the bedroom with no need to move the PC.
Originally posted by jdnyc A console is a computer with a different OS. It's not a toaster.
Doesn't matter to me how sophisticated they are. That's not the point.
Some of what I am about to write is going to really irritate some People on these boards.....
Console Gaming Systems are designed by manufacturers for ONE purpose.... to suck as much money from Gamers as humanly possible. I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise. Nothing irks me more than people that take a excellent hobby and turn into a nightmare for profit. I despise and detest the manufacturers of Console Gaming Systems and I don't try to hide it. (MMO Devs have begun to do the same last few years and THAT has had me posting more rage around here than even I want to admit...)
And even if that wasn't the case.... even if Console Gaming was a good value, I don't see it that way at all..... I personally don't get along with most Console Gamers THEMSELVES. That's right.... I have a personality conflict with Console Gamers in general. Not all of thems, but most.The guys and gals I know in real life that have Console gaming as their passion generally speaking irritate the %^&* out of me.
The guys and gals I know in real life that are PC Gamers don't irritate me or bother me in general. That is part of the reason why I latched on to this community years ago. I felt comfortable here, I liked and even admired PCs in general and PC Gaming, and I got along well with PC Gamers.
Am I an A$$hat? Probably. Console Gamers probably don't like me anymore than I like them. I don't think they are evil or anything like that, they just get on my nerves. It's no secret that some groups of People just should not be put together with other groups of People, and PC Gamers and Console Gamers are a perfect example of this IMHO. HOW they play their games I find to be offensive, while they think I am crazy to play my games the way I do. We don't see gaming "eye to eye" on many details.
Most of my withdrawl from MMO Social activity, for example, isn't because I'm not trying, it's because MMOs have lots of former Console Gamers in them that are making general chat a sewer and their participation in groups is horrific. They seem to think they are playing a console game with all the god cheats on and think they are invincible, run like hades thru the dungeon on ahead of everyone else in the group, and then get killed and wonder why the Healer couldn't save them. Any long term MMO Gamer can tell that particular Player learned to play games on a Console FIRST, and failed to adapt to the environment and tactics of a MMO. Another example... all the damn smacktalk and bragging going on from some Players in MMOs now... years ago the only People I knew that did that stupid crap was Console Gamers and that always irritated me when they did, now we see all over the place in MMOs. I am sick of dealing with Players like that. (If you want to brag in a way I find acceptable, show your prowess thru ACTION ingame. Show just how skilled you are as a Player and I will give you the applause you crave so badly.)
And you want to put these two groups of Gamers together in a big way by creating a MMO that is both PC and Console?
I say screw that idea. I want NO part of it. It's already a Trainwreck as far as some of us are concerned.
If Console Gamers want a MMO, then let them have their own on Console Systems. They should be able to enjoy MMOs the way I do. Just keep the PC and Console Players separate.
I am also fairly certain a number of Console Gamers feel about us PC Gamers the same way.
(will People here hate me for what I just posted? Yes they will, but to me it's the truth and why I will not support the idea of mixing the PC and Console Gamer communities. It's kind of like how I disagree with the whole "RMT being OK in MMOs" thing. A bad idea is still a bad idea even if you spray it with perfume and dress it up.)
I agree, but at the same time disagree. I dont really see consoles as being evil empires that want nothing but to take my money and not give me much in return. Its pretty nice to be able to buy a console for a few hundred dollars instead of a decent pc for say 1k and be able to play the same games on the console as you could on the PC (minus most MMOS) although at slightly less attractive visuals. You also dont need to buy a single game for a console, just rent, and if you do buy something you are free to sell it back for some pennies. When you buy a PC game its yours forever, cant sell it back. Although i do believe there are services that allow you to rent pc games online or something along those lines so i guess the only benifit consoles have here is you can sell back games. Still if you're smart you'll spend less money on console gaming than pc gaming assuming you regularly get new releases and not sit on an MMO for years especially a free one and not play anything else. In that case the price spent for entertainment on pc vs consoles can be evened out lol. Then there is also the upgrade scenario for pcs, lets say every 2 years a new graphics card, and every 4 years a new mobo/cpu. It can become somewhat pricey. Consoles you dont upgrade, you can still play the new games on it, but they wont be quite up to par in graphics especially later in their life cycle compared to pcs. In conclusion to that its basically if you want best visuals possible play on PC and enjoy it, but if you're okay with not the greatest graphics then the console is for you, and it'll still play new games.
Its also true i too dont get along with console gamers so well because they're thick skulled and pose insufficient arguements as to why console gaming is better. As for mixing pc/console gamers its too late, they're already mixed. The thing i believe that made this stigma of console gamers being brats is these kids were brought up on a console because it was much easier for a parent to have them play on a $300 device instead of a more expensive and sophisticated computer. So these kids were more likely to play with other immature kids and grew up to be disrespectul and poor players in general. Anyways thats my spin on it. I feel like i was going to write more but its late and im tired.
Now as for the people who are saying how consoles are way less powerful than pcs, i can agree with you, they are surely much less capable in producing raw computing power, but as someone else pointed out when it comes to graphical fidelity consoles can still look pretty (and honestly with the PS4 and Xbone they look pretty enough for me to not cringe at jaggies or poor textures)especially the soon to be released next gen ones. Its so much easier to be able to develop a game for a specific set of hardware everyone has. Developers can allocate resources how they see fit and make a pretty game by utilizing all the potential there is. On PCs its a difference story, games can still look great sure, but due to the various system configurations its evident that making it run well on a broad range of systems is more daunting and as a consumer at least myself personally i need to compensate for that fact and buy the enthusiast level hardware to run a game maxed smoothly even though its poorly optimized.
There is a bright side to the new consoles though as someone else had also said, they're no longer going to be running hardware from another universe. They are based off of x86 architecture so they're essentially PCs now. This will make ports not so bad anymore and us pc gamers wont bitch as much about it hopefully.
Oh just wanted to put this example up as far as consoles looking pretty and being able to improve on those visuals. Look at the uncharted series, UC1 when it came out looked good for its time, then couple years later UC2 came out and there was a huge and noticeable leap in graphical prowess. UC3 had a less noticeable difference but that was mostly due to the fact that Naughty Dog basically had the PS3 tapped out. Now their new title which was fantastic btw, Last of Us was also a good looking game and probably a tad better looking than UC3.
Sorry for the jumbled mess, and excuse the typos i just didnt care to focus too much and im sure i could have made a more compelling argument haha, bed time for me.
EDIT: Forgot to add, I will be getting a PS4 for the exclusive titles, maybe a few multiplats but will def get EQN for PC cause really a mouse and keyboard is how an MMO is meant to be played and though its possible the PS4 will support a M/KB that really doesnt make me want it for a console. I still would play it on PC cause i am someone who likes to have all graphical bells and whistles on and its just more likely to be a better experience on a PC.
By the time EQ Next is released, PS4 will be out. This game is going to also be on PS4. (ok not offcially announced, but it will be on there). PLanetside 2 is on PS4, elder scrolls online is on it, FXIV is on it, etc. EQ = sony = on PS4.
Speaking about MMO(!) world: anything that does not use KEYBOARD and MOUSE is BUTTON MASHER. No problem for simple or racing or boxing or exploring only game. But NOT MMo. And I do not play button mashers. MMO's can not be played in any other way, ok, maybe Hello Kitty online. :-)) And I'm pretty sure PS4 is not build around keyboard or mouse.
I find your logic to be laughable. You seem incapable of separating the gamer from the game. Just because someone doesn't like PVP in an MMORPG doesn't mean they don't enjoy PVP in games specifically geared for it. If I jump into a game like Battlefield or even better, ArmA, my whole mindset is trained on how I intend to shoot the opposing force. I play as a guy with a gun using tactics to eliminate other players. It's a single-minded focus on a single-minded game.
In an MMO, I want more than just that. I want to get immersed in the lore and storylines mmo's give. I want to work the market on the game economy. I want to explore the world the developers have crafted. And, on occasion, if I want to clash with other players in some form of organized PVP, I have the option available.
Going by your logic, all gamers have ONE preference for ONE type of gameplay, period, and no allowance for deviation. Projecting much?
It's as silly as saying "So you don't like mustard on a slice of pie, WELL WHY DO YOU PUT IT ON HOTDOGS, HUH?!? I THOUGHT YOU DIDN'T LIKE MUSTARD!!!"
If you only have the occasional "whim" to explore PVP as an "option" than clearly you are not a PVPER. Which would make you in...the majority. There's a newsflash. Of course, if you wanted to play FPS games like 200 million other people you'd have little choice but to PVP. The reason nobody has argued this point is because 1. its so blatantly freakin obvious and 2. it does little to change the fact that most people playing MMO's are not PVPers (like yourself)
People who play FPS games and are dedicated to them as opposed to MMOs, are PVPERs by default, and regardless they would be more equipped to handle PVP situation than your average MMO gamer.
I see little in your post that argues against this point, except that MMO players may sometimes play FPS games too.
Again, isn't that obvious? I clearly said that gamers generally do not play one type of game, if you read the majority of my replies.
Comments
Your thinking liner. Graphics can get better but on top of that they can use the computing power to have more moving objects on your screen. That alone could change how we game in MMOs. I could list many more things more computer power could be used for but the fact stands... consoles are fixed in time for 5 years +. Makes me think of Bill Gates "we will never need more than 640k of ram" We dont know what creative ways programmers will come up with using more powerful tech but I do not for a second think they will not.
Consoles get the same updates to performance via firmware and optimization changes as PC graphics cards do. Anyone can easily see the difference between early console generation releases and end of generation releases. So not "fixed in time."
As much as improved hardware over time on PC? Of course not.
But the difference this time around will likely be smaller and smaller as the "edge" of what is physically possible using these materials is quickly being reached.
Bingo. It's not how much better it can look as much as how much more can be displayed while maintaining a high quality. Those PS4 shots do look good, credit where it's due, but they're limited to the 2 or three detailed figures in the scene. Evolving PC power will mean a dozen or more figures on the screen, each with all the normal mapping, subscattered surface rendering, and other graphical whizbangery higher ram and higher resolution can achieve.
Also, 1080p may look good when watching the Superbowl, but that's a downgrade from what a computer can do.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Firmware updates mean nothing when hardware is stuck where it is. As for your comment in red, thats just a lack of vision. Heat is the biggest problem for pushing tech faster and harder. What if PCs moved towards better cooling systems in the next few years. Motherboards that could house 2-4 CPUs. Think of a PC with 2 to 4, 6 core CPUs running it. Things are getting cheaper to make so it could happen. Or video cards being made that run in parallel as standard. Or PC tech linked in with server farms. I could go on and on. If I thought them up as just an average IT guy, I am sure someone is working on it.
First, sorry to anyone trying to follow this as I keep deleting old quotes. I hate the quote tower, I'd rather keep my posts recent and relevant to points made.
To address your red section.
Lets begin by saying you are describing a series of actions 1% of players might even consider, let alone use. I've played tons of PC MMO's and the average user is not coming anywhere near that in terms of pushing inputs to their limits. That doesn't detract from your point, so lets actually discuss THAT. You can, absolutely, do any of those things with a controller. It requires the same amount of keybinding control you get in most PC games. You could shift targets with a bumper button, use charge with a letter button, have your res pots hotkeyed to a D-Pad along with a self made message that is set to play once you reach 50%. DA:O allowed for something pretty similar in its NPC controls...you could set certain actions to health and mana level triggers. Quite literally, its not that hard to program a game that allows you to do a /group Need heal! once health reaches 60% or less.
This is what I mean about designing a game with intelligent systems. Give your players tools. Deep, meaningful tools. Then consider how you can tie using them to a controller. Its really not that hard to do. Most games simply do not do it, because you'd have to spend as much time on UI and inputs as you do on the game. PC game developers ALREADY do this, because of just how much can be done with a keyboard. Its a failing of the console market itself that our inputs aren't often considered as deeply. Take COD, for example. Something as simple as changing the R3 stick button from knife to crouch wasn't even considered for a long time. Better still would be ACTUAL control over your keybinds. Then being able to macro non-combat actions to them. Like a radio call complete with radar ping to alert your team anytime you, say, toss a grenade.
I didn't delve too deeply into what options ARE available for consoles and their inputs. I don't feel thats as important yet as simply getting you to see that you should reconsider how deep you think that well actually is. Stop looking at the industry and seeing what they hand you, and think about what COULD be done.
Yellow
I figured you'd probably see eye to eye with me on that point. I do see what you are saying about players, but I think you're looking at things globally and not locally. Yes, there are way more users on PC across the world for most MMO games. But that also ignores the fact that many cultures refuse to own an xbox to begin with. And that Sony really botched last gen. You don't really need millions of players to make a game successful. You need to craft your game and budget around getting a larger number of regular users from a smaller pool.
You see, most F2P games (we'll focus on these since its the clear choice for consoles) monetize their games around the ideal that they will have 5 millions players try it and only 50K buying. Its why price points are so high..its hard to get someone interested in giving them money. There are lots of reason for that, but one reason certainly is that people are leery about using their services to make the transaction. People aren't afraid at all to use the live or psn markets to buy things...it happens constantly. Just check out how many sales COD got for its personalization packs (skins for guns). Tons of sales. For something stupid. Its not that people are against spending money. Most will. Its that they need for it to be quick and easy and through someone they trust.
So it will be VERY easy to get a larger portion of your user base to spend money on a F2P console MMO. In fact, they could use a system like Wizard 101 to really push interest. Lets use WoW as a content template everyone understands. Say you get vanilla wow free. Then you can choose to pay 5 bucks for levels 51-55 and half of BC content. 5 again for the other half. So forth and so forth. Maybe 1$ for extra bank slots. 5$ for access to each new class added. They could even just sell new dungeons for a dollar each. Such a focused and small format would work well. People throw $1 at indie games all the time. A single dungeon isn't a ton of work. If you had even 500K players, thats a good chunk of money coming in steadily. All your team has to do is keep making small additions to the game. If the foundation of that game is solid, it will sell like hot cakes at a lower price point. Its easier to get those numbers when your market is willing to throw money away. PC gamers just aren't. You really have to pull massive player numbers in to make those sales on a PC.
Not so for a console.
Purple
Yes, things are going to have to change in a big way for the server farm thing to catch on. But I do think it will. For a variety of reasons. None of them are console or PC gaming.
Mobile gaming will lead this change.
Right now, the only thing holding that market back is the fact that you can't make powerful hardware small enough for a phone. They've done some amazing things...but a gaming PC they aren't. Local storage also makes it hard. BUT, if all the storage is handled on the server and all it needs is input from your phone..well....
A phone can do all the gaming WE can. A market that is, by and far, MUCH larger than all of our personal markets combined. They all love those casual games..but that is mostly a barrier to entry thing. Suppose a company pulls off a gamefly thing, wherein you pay a small monthly fee and get 100% access and play of all games in their library? Knowing you can pay 20$ a month and access AOC from your phone anywhere you get wireless? Then shift over to Darksiders? No local storage needed, just pick a game and play.
I feel that this sort of entity will smash records when it finally comes around. The moment it does, and people realize what the demand really is...you'll see a great push to upgrade. Google fiber type tech will surge as new companies try to get a piece of that cash cow. It doesn't take 10 years either...its a change that would take less than 2 once a market becomes realized.
PC, of course... what else? Why do consoles even exist today?
I simply wanted to say assuming its true that they're using the ForgeLight engine, the planetside 2 engine, everquest next should be grand. As a matter of fact, a big part of the reason I continue planetside 2 is the ForgeLight engine, its truly awesome. That's coming from a person who's never truly met a game engine he's liked.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
Unless you had one of the first 360s, then when it overheated it probably could have been a toaster.
--Custom Rig: Pyraxis---
NZXT Phantom 410 Case
Intel Core i5-4690 Processor - Quad Core, 6MB Smart Cache, 3.5GHz
Asus Sabertooth Z87 Motherboard
Asus GeForce GTX 760 Video Card - 2GB GDDR5, PCI-Express 3.0
Kingston HyperX Fury Blue 16GB
Ummm what?
Doesn't matter to me how sophisticated they are. That's not the point.
Some of what I am about to write is going to really irritate some People on these boards.....
Console Gaming Systems are designed by manufacturers for ONE purpose.... to suck as much money from Gamers as humanly possible. I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise. Nothing irks me more than people that take a excellent hobby and turn into a nightmare for profit. I despise and detest the manufacturers of Console Gaming Systems and I don't try to hide it. (MMO Devs have begun to do the same last few years and THAT has had me posting more rage around here than even I want to admit...)
And even if that wasn't the case.... even if Console Gaming was a good value, I don't see it that way at all..... I personally don't get along with most Console Gamers THEMSELVES. That's right.... I have a personality conflict with Console Gamers in general. Not all of thems, but most.The guys and gals I know in real life that have Console gaming as their passion generally speaking irritate the %^&* out of me.
The guys and gals I know in real life that are PC Gamers don't irritate me or bother me in general. That is part of the reason why I latched on to this community years ago. I felt comfortable here, I liked and even admired PCs in general and PC Gaming, and I got along well with PC Gamers.
Am I an A$$hat? Probably. Console Gamers probably don't like me anymore than I like them. I don't think they are evil or anything like that, they just get on my nerves. It's no secret that some groups of People just should not be put together with other groups of People, and PC Gamers and Console Gamers are a perfect example of this IMHO. HOW they play their games I find to be offensive, while they think I am crazy to play my games the way I do. We don't see gaming "eye to eye" on many details.
Most of my withdrawl from MMO Social activity, for example, isn't because I'm not trying, it's because MMOs have lots of former Console Gamers in them that are making general chat a sewer and their participation in groups is horrific. They seem to think they are playing a console game with all the god cheats on and think they are invincible, run like hades thru the dungeon on ahead of everyone else in the group, and then get killed and wonder why the Healer couldn't save them. Any long term MMO Gamer can tell that particular Player learned to play games on a Console FIRST, and failed to adapt to the environment and tactics of a MMO. Another example... all the damn smacktalk and bragging going on from some Players in MMOs now... years ago the only People I knew that did that stupid crap was Console Gamers and that always irritated me when they did, now we see all over the place in MMOs. I am sick of dealing with Players like that. (If you want to brag in a way I find acceptable, show your prowess thru ACTION ingame. Show just how skilled you are as a Player and I will give you the applause you crave so badly.)
And you want to put these two groups of Gamers together in a big way by creating a MMO that is both PC and Console?
I say screw that idea. I want NO part of it. It's already a Trainwreck as far as some of us are concerned.
If Console Gamers want a MMO, then let them have their own on Console Systems. They should be able to enjoy MMOs the way I do. Just keep the PC and Console Players separate.
I am also fairly certain a number of Console Gamers feel about us PC Gamers the same way.
(will People here hate me for what I just posted? Yes they will, but to me it's the truth and why I will not support the idea of mixing the PC and Console Gamer communities. It's kind of like how I disagree with the whole "RMT being OK in MMOs" thing. A bad idea is still a bad idea even if you spray it with perfume and dress it up.)
If the gameplay doesn't require more than 10-16 spells to use ( see FFXIV for a fantastic controller UI with 16 easy to use spells and dozens more faster-to-use then clicking a button on a bar that isn't keybound ), then you can be sure the console player will win that fight lol...
Both for me.
Although I love owning a powerful PC rig, there's nothing quite like relaxing on the couch and playing a game with a controller.
I like couch potato gaming too, but I prefer to do it with my powerful PC that also has loads of user generated content and more options for graphic settings, etc.
Though if PS4 gets EQN and it runs better and prettier than on my PC, and I can eventually transfer my characters to a PC server I may play the ps4 version for the first year or two and let PC tech have a couple of years to advance before building a new one.
Take this shot for example:
Nevermind that it was from a pre-rendered video that I could do myself with Maya and the necessary know-how on my own computer. If it was an in-engine scene, the most you could expect to see is maybe 3 or 4 models with that level of detail on the screen at the same time on a console. Maybe even on a computer with today's tech. But a couple of months down the line, nVidia or AMD will have newer GPUs out that will render (no pun intended) a console's graphics power obsolete. Well within the PS4's lifecycle, and probably pretty early into it, computing power will exponentially increase, while the console will have the very same hardware it shipped with.
There's only so much firmware can do. A V6 isn't going to suddenly become a twin turbo V8 just because someone decides to put in a higher octane fuel. Same thing applies to firmware and hardware. It might run a little more efficiently, but you can't squeeze extra power into the hardware it just by wishing it into existence.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Well I genrerally have my pc gaming rig set up in my bedroom. Having to bring it out to the living room just to play on the couch is quite a pain in my opinion.
That's why it'd be nice to be able to switch between the two depending on if I'd rather get comfortable on the couch or get serious on the PC with everything maxed out.
Buying a PC or PS4 just to play a trading card game seems a bit over the top ?
I like couch potato gaming too, but I prefer to do it with my powerful PC that also has loads of user generated content and more options for graphic settings, etc.
Though if PS4 gets EQN and it runs better and prettier than on my PC, and I can eventually transfer my characters to a PC server I may play the ps4 version for the first year or two and let PC tech have a couple of years to advance before building a new one.
Well I genrerally have my pc gaming rig set up in my bedroom. Having to bring it out to the living room just to play on the couch is quite a pain in my opinion.
That's why it'd be nice to be able to switch between the two depending on if I'd rather get comfortable on the couch or get serious on the PC with everything maxed out.
HDMI over ethernet and a long usb cable. It may be to much hassle for you to bother with (took me 15 minutes to run the wires and hook it up tho), but if you like PC gaming on a big screen tv its better than moving the PC around.I get to play pc games with a controller and 7.1 surround in my living room and kb/m in the bedroom with no need to move the PC.
I agree, but at the same time disagree. I dont really see consoles as being evil empires that want nothing but to take my money and not give me much in return. Its pretty nice to be able to buy a console for a few hundred dollars instead of a decent pc for say 1k and be able to play the same games on the console as you could on the PC (minus most MMOS) although at slightly less attractive visuals. You also dont need to buy a single game for a console, just rent, and if you do buy something you are free to sell it back for some pennies. When you buy a PC game its yours forever, cant sell it back. Although i do believe there are services that allow you to rent pc games online or something along those lines so i guess the only benifit consoles have here is you can sell back games. Still if you're smart you'll spend less money on console gaming than pc gaming assuming you regularly get new releases and not sit on an MMO for years especially a free one and not play anything else. In that case the price spent for entertainment on pc vs consoles can be evened out lol. Then there is also the upgrade scenario for pcs, lets say every 2 years a new graphics card, and every 4 years a new mobo/cpu. It can become somewhat pricey. Consoles you dont upgrade, you can still play the new games on it, but they wont be quite up to par in graphics especially later in their life cycle compared to pcs. In conclusion to that its basically if you want best visuals possible play on PC and enjoy it, but if you're okay with not the greatest graphics then the console is for you, and it'll still play new games.
Its also true i too dont get along with console gamers so well because they're thick skulled and pose insufficient arguements as to why console gaming is better. As for mixing pc/console gamers its too late, they're already mixed. The thing i believe that made this stigma of console gamers being brats is these kids were brought up on a console because it was much easier for a parent to have them play on a $300 device instead of a more expensive and sophisticated computer. So these kids were more likely to play with other immature kids and grew up to be disrespectul and poor players in general. Anyways thats my spin on it. I feel like i was going to write more but its late and im tired.
Now as for the people who are saying how consoles are way less powerful than pcs, i can agree with you, they are surely much less capable in producing raw computing power, but as someone else pointed out when it comes to graphical fidelity consoles can still look pretty (and honestly with the PS4 and Xbone they look pretty enough for me to not cringe at jaggies or poor textures)especially the soon to be released next gen ones. Its so much easier to be able to develop a game for a specific set of hardware everyone has. Developers can allocate resources how they see fit and make a pretty game by utilizing all the potential there is. On PCs its a difference story, games can still look great sure, but due to the various system configurations its evident that making it run well on a broad range of systems is more daunting and as a consumer at least myself personally i need to compensate for that fact and buy the enthusiast level hardware to run a game maxed smoothly even though its poorly optimized.
There is a bright side to the new consoles though as someone else had also said, they're no longer going to be running hardware from another universe. They are based off of x86 architecture so they're essentially PCs now. This will make ports not so bad anymore and us pc gamers wont bitch as much about it hopefully.
Oh just wanted to put this example up as far as consoles looking pretty and being able to improve on those visuals. Look at the uncharted series, UC1 when it came out looked good for its time, then couple years later UC2 came out and there was a huge and noticeable leap in graphical prowess. UC3 had a less noticeable difference but that was mostly due to the fact that Naughty Dog basically had the PS3 tapped out. Now their new title which was fantastic btw, Last of Us was also a good looking game and probably a tad better looking than UC3.
Sorry for the jumbled mess, and excuse the typos i just didnt care to focus too much and im sure i could have made a more compelling argument haha, bed time for me.
EDIT: Forgot to add, I will be getting a PS4 for the exclusive titles, maybe a few multiplats but will def get EQN for PC cause really a mouse and keyboard is how an MMO is meant to be played and though its possible the PS4 will support a M/KB that really doesnt make me want it for a console. I still would play it on PC cause i am someone who likes to have all graphical bells and whistles on and its just more likely to be a better experience on a PC.
Speaking about MMO(!) world: anything that does not use KEYBOARD and MOUSE is BUTTON MASHER. No problem for simple or racing or boxing or exploring only game. But NOT MMo. And I do not play button mashers. MMO's can not be played in any other way, ok, maybe Hello Kitty online. :-)) And I'm pretty sure PS4 is not build around keyboard or mouse.
If you only have the occasional "whim" to explore PVP as an "option" than clearly you are not a PVPER. Which would make you in...the majority. There's a newsflash. Of course, if you wanted to play FPS games like 200 million other people you'd have little choice but to PVP. The reason nobody has argued this point is because 1. its so blatantly freakin obvious and 2. it does little to change the fact that most people playing MMO's are not PVPers (like yourself)
People who play FPS games and are dedicated to them as opposed to MMOs, are PVPERs by default, and regardless they would be more equipped to handle PVP situation than your average MMO gamer.
I see little in your post that argues against this point, except that MMO players may sometimes play FPS games too.
Again, isn't that obvious? I clearly said that gamers generally do not play one type of game, if you read the majority of my replies.