What I dont get is people posting about the combat that has not reach what level 11 maybe 15 and complaining about the combat. Yet they only experienced a fraction of the combat. At level 30 of your first class you start getting interesting abilities. Once you get your second class to level 15 you will get your Job abilities. As you level both classes up to 50 your abilities get stronger and more abilities. At level 11 you have seen nothing just like all MMOs FFXIV starts off slow and builds you up, however people are going to be so critical of FFXIV why? Because maybe they see it as a real threat to other MMOs that are coming out that really they want to do well however have very little content to the game.
What you dont get is that people dislike the combat mechanic, and that wont change no matter what level you are. For some (me included) tab fighting is extremely boring, for others its heaven. I for one agree with the lack of inovation but thats me. Press 1, wait, press 2, wait, press 3, wait. Oh but we can move around and such..... well doesnt matter much now does it, at least for a melee class, since mob will hit you no matter where you are if your in his range, so might as well stand still pressing 1-5 while i watch a movie on the side.
I certainly understand why tab targeting isn't your thing. If it's not, then I'm afraid that this is not your game. However Yoshi-P recently addressed the battle system critique that has been going on in a very convincing way. He says that tab targeting strategic combat favors the longevity of the game. He explains that in an action MMOs gamers get fatigued. Remember that repeating actions constantly is a staple of the genre (mob grind, long raid battles,etc). To avoid the fatigue of having to repeat these action thousands of times while having direct control of you character, action MMOs tend to be F2P throwaway games with lots of instant gratification which are meant to be enjoyed in short game sessions. The gamers that just power through F2P MMOs quickly find out that the content is short and just game hop to another F2P action MMO (see, NWO, Tera, etc.)
The vision for this game is totally different from that (subscription based, tab targeting strategic combat). The game is meant to be played for years. If it where more of an action MMO, players would get fatigued. This actually makes me think about games like ESO. Can you imagine wanting to farm some specific item from a mob and have to click on your mouse thousand of times because you have to actively click for every attack, and with that awful Elder Scrolls combat? For me this is not ideal. I like to multitask in MMOs. I like to chat while I'M grinding and questing, maybe even watch a little TV. This is simply not possible in an action oriented MMO.
I certainly understand why tab targeting isn't your thing. If it's not, then I'm afraid that this is not your game. However Yoshi-P recently addressed the battle system critique that has been going on in a very convincing way. He says that tab targeting strategic combat favors the longevity of the game. He explains that in an action MMOs gamers get fatigued. Remember that repeating actions constantly is a staple of the genre (mob grind, long raid battles,etc). To avoid the fatigue of having to repeat these action thousands of times while having direct control of you character, action MMOs tend to be F2P throwaway games with lots of instant gratification which are meant to be enjoyed in short game sessions. The gamers that just power through F2P MMOs quickly find out that the content is short and just game hop to another F2P action MMO (see, NWO, Tera, etc.)
The vision for this game is totally different from that (subscription based, tab targeting strategic combat). The game is meant to be played for years. If it where more of an action MMO, players would get fatigued. This actually makes me think about games like ESO. Can you imagine wanting to farm some specific item from a mob and have to click on your mouse thousand of times because you have to actively click for every attack, and with that awful Elder Scrolls combat? For me this is not ideal. I like to multitask in MMOs. I like to chat while I'M grinding and questing, maybe even watch a little TV. This is simply not possible in an action oriented MMO.
Apparently people minds don't get fatigued from slow, boring and tedious activities.
And action gamers get fatigued? Give me a break, obviously Yoshi-P's never seriously played games where high APM (actions per minute) is required because those games are where you tend to see the same faces in the lobbies all day, and even if they quit, they're quick to comeback. Look no farther than Dota 2's lobby.
So in short, if it's fun, people will keep playing no matter how fast pace the action is(and AFAIK people tend to find fast pace actions fun and addictive, which is why games nowaday are getting more and more fast-paced)
Funny about this Yoshi-P guy, he talks much trying to justify his games designs and fanboys lap it up as words of God and see Yoshi-P as some sort of Einstein. But all I see in him is a frog sitting at the bottom of the well or a fox looking at the grapes above him.
I certainly understand why tab targeting isn't your thing. If it's not, then I'm afraid that this is not your game. However Yoshi-P recently addressed the battle system critique that has been going on in a very convincing way. He says that tab targeting strategic combat favors the longevity of the game. He explains that in an action MMOs gamers get fatigued. Remember that repeating actions constantly is a staple of the genre (mob grind, long raid battles,etc). To avoid the fatigue of having to repeat these action thousands of times while having direct control of you character, action MMOs tend to be F2P throwaway games with lots of instant gratification which are meant to be enjoyed in short game sessions. The gamers that just power through F2P MMOs quickly find out that the content is short and just game hop to another F2P action MMO (see, NWO, Tera, etc.)
The vision for this game is totally different from that (subscription based, tab targeting strategic combat). The game is meant to be played for years. If it where more of an action MMO, players would get fatigued. This actually makes me think about games like ESO. Can you imagine wanting to farm some specific item from a mob and have to click on your mouse thousand of times because you have to actively click for every attack, and with that awful Elder Scrolls combat? For me this is not ideal. I like to multitask in MMOs. I like to chat while I'M grinding and questing, maybe even watch a little TV. This is simply not possible in an action oriented MMO.
Apparently people minds don't get fatigued from slow, boring and tedious activities.
And action gamers get fatigued? Give me a break, obviously Yoshi-P's never seriously played games where high APM (actions per minute) is required because those games are where you tend to see the same faces in the lobbies all day, and even if they quit, they're quick to comeback. Look no farther than Dota 2's lobby.
So in short, if it's fun, people will keep playing no matter how fast pace the action is(and AFAIK people tend to find fast pace actions fun and addictive, which is why games nowaday are getting more and more fast-paced)
Funny about this Yoshi-P guy, he talks much trying to justify his games designs and fanboys lap it up as words of God and see Yoshi-P as some sort of Einstein. But all I see in him is a frog sitting at the bottom of the well or a fox looking at the grapes above him.
I brought up Dota 2 to prove that high APM gamers don't quit quickly because of fatigue from high APM, and because it's a game that requires high APM, situational skills(similar to GW2), situational awareness, require high amount of team-work ,have long sessions of play and also have a lot of farming, it's more similar to MMORPGs regarding mindset than you think.
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
One way I've seen a lot of people beat it is by leveling conjurer up till you get cure (level 2) and it makes the fight extremely easy.
Edit: Also, if you want to make it so easy you can sit back and play Ninja Gaiden at the same time, you could level Conjurer to 8 and get protect as well. It still pays to bring along a few antidotes.
And the beauty of that is, each of those approaches can still be considered tactics.
Someone who's not so good at longer fights (some people just aren't tuned for extended fights, but do better in short-term "burn 'em down" types) would find those things a godsend, offsetting their weaknesses and making the fight more manageable and/or enjoyable for them.
The fight being discussed took me a couple tries before I got it right as well.
There's also the fight before that, the level 14 or 15 one where there are multiple targets to deal with. I died the first time, 'cause I approached it the wrong way. My help ended up dying and then it became apparent what I should have done differently. On the second go around, I selected my targets more carefully and won.
In dungeons, I've been able to use stun moves to cancel some enemies' more damaging moves. And it's not a skill on my "usual rotation", it's a special-case skill, with a higher cool-down. So I leave it available for just those situations.
So, yes, there are strategies to the fights, and it's not "just pressing 1,2,3 over and over again".... unless you're choosing to play it that way. In that case, all I can say is 1) You're the cause of your own boredom. 2) Good luck getting away with that as you get out of the early "learning" levels (remember, not everyone trying a MMO has played one before), the fights get tougher and more strategy is required.
Even though the combat and questing are nothing new, at all, there is something intangibly fun about ARR I can't quite put a finger on.
The characters, the world, the stories, the dialog.. I actually read the quest text, the cut scenes and mini boss battles... the animations and just feel to everything... when you hit with an ability it is just flashy enough to be "impactful" and really feel like it has weight. The sound design is incredible.
Everything just feels right, moves right, plays right, looks amazing...
Doesn't reinvent the wheel, but man it is a nice wheel.
In a world of clones, unorignal game design, poor production quality, or just a complete lack of addictive gameplay, FFXIV somehow manages to weave together juuuuuusssttt the right mix to deliver a unique and interesting game I can't wait to spend countless hours in.
I know many will not be able to look past the slower paced combat and kill/collect/fedex questing.
I understand some are just completely tired of it.
But the main story has thus far been worth the price of admission alone.
Throw in housing and grand companies and everything else I haven't seen yet, Guild leves and dungeons and raids are worth the price of subscription to me.
I think lots of people are so hell bent on "something new" and "something different" that they've forgotten what makes these games great. What makes these games worth subbing to.
To me, it's adventure. It's the feeling of awe and wonder and that push to keep going and see what is next, to hit that next milestone.
FFXIV:ARR has soul. It's classic, it's a bit old school, yet it's polished - refined. It's an evolution of the archetype, a step in the logical sequence.
I just need to find a good guild to pal around with. This is the kind of MMO experience best shared with others.
I brought up Dota 2 to prove that high APM gamers don't quit quickly because of fatigue from high APM, and because it's a game that requires high APM, situational skills(similar to GW2), situational awareness, require high amount of team-work ,have long sessions of play and also have a lot of farming, it's more similar to MMORPGs regarding mindset than you think.
While I understand the preference for action combat, I think you are missing the point. It's not the high APM per se that leads to fatigue. High APM games (Moba, RTS) are fast paced and short, with lots of short term gratification. The fatigue in action MMOs does not come from the arguably high APM in battles but from having to repeat those "high" APM battles thousands of times for a long term goal (grinding, farming, etc). Recent MMOs have circumvented this fatigue by going with F2P models and promoting short play sessions (xp booster, selling gear, etc). Seasoned MMO gamers generally blast through these game because the model isn't desinged to sustain long term play on these levels, which is why we see a lot of game hoping lately.
FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat. You have multi classing with one character because it is expected that you will invest a lot of time in your one character. So the whole model is different.
While I understand the preference for action combat, I think you are missing the point. It's not the high APM per se that leads to fatigue. High APM games (Moba, RTS) are fast paced and short, with lots of short term gratification. The fatigue in action MMOs does not come from the arguably high APM in battles but from having to repeat those "high" APM battles thousands of times for a long term goal (grinding, farming, etc). Recent MMOs have circumvented this fatigue by going with F2P models and promoting short play sessions (xp booster, selling gear, etc). Seasoned MMO gamers generally blast through these game because the model isn't desinged to sustain long term play on these levels, which is why we see a lot of game hoping lately.
Actually you're also somewhat wrong in this regard because fast-paced action MMORPGs also tend to have short-term gratifications (i.e very fast leveling, high chance of getting good loots), xp boosters are almost worthless in these MMORPGs and gears selling also exist in F2P MMORPGs that use traditional tab-targeting combat. I've not met anybody who's ever bought xp boosters in GW2 nor TERA while i've met alot that have done so in F2P MMORPGs with tradtional combat system like Aion.
Also having challenging content can prevent these seasoned MMORPGs gamers from blowing through the content quickly. Believe it or not, in slow tab-targeting combat system, all content are beatable if you have enough patience now slower than nail reaction. In action combat system, patience is not enough but you also have to have innate fast reaction and situational awareness.
FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat. You have multi classing with one character because it is expected that you will invest a lot of time in your one character. So the whole model is different.
Oh please since when did slow tab-targeting combat equal strategic combat? Fast paced actions combat can't be strategic?
Oh please since when did slow tab-targeting combat equal strategic combat? Fast paced actions combat can't be strategic?
People say that all the time on this site. I have no clue where they get that idea. Just look at Starcraft for an extremely strategic and tactical game and check out top player's actions per minute. Action combat, turn based combat and tab targeted long global cooldown combat can all require great strategy for top level play.
Graphics are A1. Character creation average. Combat (apart from archer) not so good.
So what's the big attraction? Just my thoughts after 3 beta weekends.
The game is still offering as any other game is ,housing will come.They laid out a year long plan for development,do not expect it to stop,Square is famous for creating new ideas instead of just maps and instances.
I will agree the initial classes are a bit bland,it will never match FFXI for depth how ever once you mix and match other classes it opens up a lot.
That is Square's version of creating longevity or as some call it grind.They have you spend a lot of time building your player and imo that is a good thing.You can do everything on that one player,so you never have to shelve it for an alt and toss all that hard work you spent on your main player.
Even when this game releases again,it will not be finished,Free companies and housing still need to be worked on.There will be a lot more content coming.Even for those that just want simple quests,they have added more in each patch.
Bottom line for this and every game,you won't fully enjoy it unless you open up and begin to group play.You don't need large guilds to enjoy the game at least until we find out more on Free Companies.IMO even a nice core of 5-8 can do most everything on hard level but even 2-3 can get by in the game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
While I understand the preference for action combat, I think you are missing the point. It's not the high APM per se that leads to fatigue. High APM games (Moba, RTS) are fast paced and short, with lots of short term gratification. The fatigue in action MMOs does not come from the arguably high APM in battles but from having to repeat those "high" APM battles thousands of times for a long term goal (grinding, farming, etc). Recent MMOs have circumvented this fatigue by going with F2P models and promoting short play sessions (xp booster, selling gear, etc). Seasoned MMO gamers generally blast through these game because the model isn't desinged to sustain long term play on these levels, which is why we see a lot of game hoping lately.
Actually you're also somewhat wrong in this regard because fast-paced action MMORPGs also tend to have short-term gratifications (i.e very fast leveling, high chance of getting good loots), xp boosters are almost worthless in these MMORPGs and gears selling also exist in F2P MMORPGs that use traditional tab-targeting combat. I've not met anybody who's ever bought xp boosters in GW2 nor TERA while i've met alot that have done so in F2P MMORPGs with tradtional combat system like Aion.
Also having challenging content can prevent these seasoned MMORPGs gamers from blowing through the content quickly. Believe it or not, in slow tab-targeting combat system, all content are beatable if you have enough patience now slower than nail reaction. In action combat system, patience is not enough but you also have to have innate fast reaction and situational awareness.
FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat. You have multi classing with one character because it is expected that you will invest a lot of time in your one character. So the whole model is different.
Oh please since when did slow tab-targeting combat equal strategic combat? Fast paced actions combat can't be strategic?
It's ok if you feel this game is not for you. However it does not make it better or worse than any other offering out there, just different. Now you know the game's vision and direction. I think you would not enjoy this game so feel free to walk on to any other game out there.
I'm really looking forward to this game. It appeals to me. I want an MMO that I can play for years and not be level cap epics waiting on the mailbox a month after starting.
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
I was able to beat it first time on my marauder
Why have you put "Playing the FFXIV ARR demo." under your Avatar? it isnt a Demo, though granted it gives you an insight. goes to show how ill informed you are.
I was invited into the Demo in phase 3 because I owned 1.0. They are trying to get us back playing so yes for us 1.0 players who were burned this is a demo, SE's second chance at impressing us. If you can't see the importance of bringing these players back.......
Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing. PS3
Graphics are A1. Character creation average. Combat (apart from archer) not so good.
So what's the big attraction? Just my thoughts after 3 beta weekends.
The game is still offering as any other game is ,housing will come.They laid out a year long plan for development,do not expect it to stop,Square is famous for creating new ideas instead of just maps and instances.
I will agree the initial classes are a bit bland,it will never match FFXI for depth how ever once you mix and match other classes it opens up a lot.
That is Square's version of creating longevity or as some call it grind.They have you spend a lot of time building your player and imo that is a good thing.You can do everything on that one player,so you never have to shelve it for an alt and toss all that hard work you spent on your main player.
Even when this game releases again,it will not be finished,Free companies and housing still need to be worked on.There will be a lot more content coming.Even for those that just want simple quests,they have added more in each patch.
Bottom line for this and every game,you won't fully enjoy it unless you open up and begin to group play.You don't need large guilds to enjoy the game at least until we find out more on Free Companies.IMO even a nice core of 5-8 can do most everything on hard level but even 2-3 can get by in the game.
I can show you exactly how much it opens up for a Conjurer. Outside of a Conjurers class skills, these are what they can pick up in addition to what's on this page.
Thunder I and II
DoT
2.5 sec
Thaumaturge
Surecast
No Interupt Next Cast
30 sec
Thaumaturge
Swiftcast
Next Spell Instant
180 sec
Thaumaturge
Featherfoot
Evasion +15%
90 sec
Pugilist
Second Wind
Health +15%
120 sec
Pugilist
Internal Release
Crit +20%
60 sec
Pugilist
Mantra
Heal Received +5%
120 sec
Pugilist
Foresight
Def +20%
120 sec
Maurauder
Bloodbath
Convert 25% Damage to Health
90 sec
Maurauder
Mercy Stroke
If Killing Blow, +20% Health
90 sec
Maurauder
Keen Flurry
Parry +20%
90 sec
Lancer
Invigorate
TP +300
180 sec
Lancer
Blood for Blood
Damage +20%, Taken +25%
80 sec
Lancer
Flash
AoE Threat Increase
2.5 sec
Gladiator
Convalescence
Healing Taken +20%
120 sec
Gladiator
Awareness
Crit Taken Chance -15%
120 sec
Gladiator
Raging Strikes
Attack Power +20%
180 sec
Archer
Hawk's Eye
Physical Accuracy +20%
90 sec
Archer
Quelling Strikes
Reduce Threat From Physical
120 sec
Archer
Some are nice for a Conjurer, some not so much. They are mostly cooldown skills that add a temporary buff. This is all of the side stuff that they can pick up if they chose to do so.
Oh please since when did slow tab-targeting combat equal strategic combat? Fast paced actions combat can't be strategic?
People say that all the time on this site. I have no clue where they get that idea. Just look at Starcraft for an extremely strategic and tactical game and check out top player's actions per minute. Action combat, turn based combat and tab targeted long global cooldown combat can all require great strategy for top level play.
I will stipulate that all types of combat can be strategic.
However,from my perspective, a more reasonable comparison would be how Dragon Age Origins combat is slower and more strategic, while Dragon Age 2's is more action oriented and less so on the strategy side. I think this comparison holds more similitude than with MOBAs or RTS.
I know that Dragon Age 2 faults with the combat system doesn't have to do with the fact that it is action oriented instead of slower and more strategical like its predecessor. But you can't argue with the fact that the shift completely changed the vision for the game and the franchise, for the worse.
When I see these action MMOs (NWO, TERA, etc.) they have fast paced, arguably exciting combat, but are generally F2P throwaway games which I would not care to invest more than a month or two, certainly not a year, because apart from the combat they have nothing else to offer long term. It's not how I like to play MMOs.
The game is still offering as any other game is ,housing will come.They laid out a year long plan for development,do not expect it to stop,Square is famous for creating new ideas instead of just maps and instances.
I will agree the initial classes are a bit bland,it will never match FFXI for depth how ever once you mix and match other classes it opens up a lot.
That is Square's version of creating longevity or as some call it grind.They have you spend a lot of time building your player and imo that is a good thing.You can do everything on that one player,so you never have to shelve it for an alt and toss all that hard work you spent on your main player.
Even when this game releases again,it will not be finished,Free companies and housing still need to be worked on.There will be a lot more content coming.Even for those that just want simple quests,they have added more in each patch.
Bottom line for this and every game,you won't fully enjoy it unless you open up and begin to group play.You don't need large guilds to enjoy the game at least until we find out more on Free Companies.IMO even a nice core of 5-8 can do most everything on hard level but even 2-3 can get by in the game.
Problem is other games offer just as much, but for free, FF XIV is asking for a box price plus subscription.
Oh please since when did slow tab-targeting combat equal strategic combat? Fast paced actions combat can't be strategic?
People say that all the time on this site. I have no clue where they get that idea. Just look at Starcraft for an extremely strategic and tactical game and check out top player's actions per minute. Action combat, turn based combat and tab targeted long global cooldown combat can all require great strategy for top level play.
I will stipulate that all types of combat can be strategic.
However,from my perspective, a more reasonable comparison would be how Dragon Age Origins combat is slower and more strategic, while Dragon Age 2's is more action oriented and less so on the strategy side. I think this comparison holds more similitude than with MOBAs or RTS.
I know that Dragon Age 2 faults with the combat system doesn't have to do with the fact that it is action oriented instead of slower and more strategical like its predecessor. But you can't argue with the fact that the shift completely changed the vision for the game and the franchise, for the worse.
When I see these action MMOs (NWO, TERA, etc.) they have fast paced, arguably exciting combat, but are generally F2P throwaway games which I would not care to invest more than a month or two, certainly not a year, because apart from the combat they have nothing else to offer long term. It's not how I like to play MMOs.
Yeah, but your opinion of the games doesn't really have anything to do with how much strategy and tactics it takes to be really good at them. The amount of strategy required to be successful doesn't change with the cooldown timer. The cooldown timer only requires you to make strategic decisions faster. You could get specific and say why you think one game involves more strategy than the other, but the cooldown timer is not what determines how much strategic planning and foresight one must develop in order to be successful.
The game is still offering as any other game is ,housing will come.They laid out a year long plan for development,do not expect it to stop,Square is famous for creating new ideas instead of just maps and instances.
I will agree the initial classes are a bit bland,it will never match FFXI for depth how ever once you mix and match other classes it opens up a lot.
That is Square's version of creating longevity or as some call it grind.They have you spend a lot of time building your player and imo that is a good thing.You can do everything on that one player,so you never have to shelve it for an alt and toss all that hard work you spent on your main player.
Even when this game releases again,it will not be finished,Free companies and housing still need to be worked on.There will be a lot more content coming.Even for those that just want simple quests,they have added more in each patch.
Bottom line for this and every game,you won't fully enjoy it unless you open up and begin to group play.You don't need large guilds to enjoy the game at least until we find out more on Free Companies.IMO even a nice core of 5-8 can do most everything on hard level but even 2-3 can get by in the game.
Problem is other games offer just as much, but for free, FF XIV is asking for a box price plus subscription.
I think you should recommend specific games which offer just as much, rather than making vague statements.
Rift, Neverwinter, LoTRO, TERA
All these games offer "just as much" and are free, I think many of us here have played them. Yet we are playing FFXIV, to me that means that those games didn't offer just as much for free. I don't think throwing money away is what attracts people to one game over another (unless you can throw your money at the game to get stuff because that is part of the game design like in f2p then you could make the argument that people play those games specifically so they can throw RL cash at it)
But maybe you know of a f2p MMO that is better than this game and we just don't know about it. You would do us a favor by showing us why we shouldn't bother paying for what we can get better in a f2p MMO.
??? Ignore other games to prove your point. Look at other games. You convinently forgot forgot TSW, Darkfalls, Rift and of course Final Fantasy. Out of those you mentioned I wouldn't call them "action" anymore than final fantasy 12 was an action based system.
Forgot about TSW. I originally thought it had action combat, but unfortunately it's target and hotkey based. Completely ruined the game's enjoyment for me. The story wasn't going to carry it.
Darkfall I've never played and have no interest in, so I can't comment.
Rift is NOT new and a complete WoWclone in every aspect.
Final Fantasy what? Look at the new one, 15, it's full on action combat.
And to argue a point, 12 kind of was action based, though it still used the age old ATB system in the action environment, which made it feel like auto attack. But no, that's a single player game and far more action than the traditional single player FF games that came before it.
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Just because companies go towards something new doesn't mean it's "better". Take all those games you have mentioned there are crowds that love em and some that hate em. I was a big fan of Neverwinter but frankly the combat is kind of sucky and so is the game imo.
I mean it's great if you like the arcade style crap like from the 80s but not everyone does. I personally like the old traditional non twitch combat. The combat you seem to enjoy isn't a second coming, it's just a newish flavor.
It's better because it's more fun, it's more involving, it's more reaction, and to a degree, twitch based.
The sole reason I enjoyed Neverwinter was because of the combat. Originally I thought it was going to be trash because it was designed to root you in place when you attacked, but I had fun with it for some reason. The rest of the game was absolute trash though and an insult to D&D; though I guess 4E is an insult to D&D as well..
Arcade style crap from the 80s? What?
What MMORPGs were there that had non auto-attack based combat? Very, very few, and if they did they sacrificed other elements to do so because the technology wasn't there yet.
The action based systems of today are so much better and much more prevalent because the technology has improved to the point where it can be supported on a massive scale. This is the golden era of MMORPGs; things can be done that couldn't be done before (or done far, far better).
FFXIV after sweeping design changes is an exception to this rule. They really did make a wrong decision by moving back to the auto-attack system, though honestly, the amount of lag due to the server hosting location (no regional servers in this day and age is ludicrous) pretty much ruined any hope the game had of supporting an action combat system.. outside of Japan at any rate.
EH what lol?
Fun is subjective so I repeat if you like twitchy combat it may be "better" for you but if you don't, like me it isn't. See how that goes. Just because you like one type of combat over another doesn't make it the golden age of MMOs.
I think they did a great move to move away from "action combat" every other mmo and his dog this last year wants" action combat. One of the great things about rpgs was the fact you didn't need mario bros skills to play them. You could level up and become stronger that way etc.
As for lagg thats funny I didn't lagg once this weekend and I live in north america. Guess it because I joined one of the many north american servers they had instead of one the many jp servers!!!!
I say good on you SE traditional isn't always bad!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I think you should recommend specific games which offer just as much, rather than making vague statements.
Rift, Neverwinter, LoTRO, TERA
All these games offer "just as much" and are free, I think many of us here have played them. Yet we are playing FFXIV, to me that means that those games didn't offer just as much for free. I don't think throwing money away is what attracts people to one game over another (unless you can throw your money at the game to get stuff because that is part of the game design like in f2p then you could make the argument that people play those games specifically so they can throw RL cash at it)
But maybe you know of a f2p MMO that is better than this game and we just don't know about it. You would do us a favor by showing us why we shouldn't bother paying for what we can get better in a f2p MMO.
I would recommend having a look at ArcheAge, recently gone F2P in Korea and most likely will also be F2P in the West. Yes I know it's sandbox but it offers many things that is similar to FF XIV and much more. And general reception so far has been nothing less than acclaim.
Oh btw admit it, many of you are here mainly because it's Final Fantasy and not because this game offers more than others,you Murugan for example, you've been here fanboying this game since the game's still 1.0, when it was completely garbage and quite different from what it is today.
Oh please since when did slow tab-targeting combat equal strategic combat? Fast paced actions combat can't be strategic?
People say that all the time on this site. I have no clue where they get that idea. Just look at Starcraft for an extremely strategic and tactical game and check out top player's actions per minute. Action combat, turn based combat and tab targeted long global cooldown combat can all require great strategy for top level play.
I will stipulate that all types of combat can be strategic.
However,from my perspective, a more reasonable comparison would be how Dragon Age Origins combat is slower and more strategic, while Dragon Age 2's is more action oriented and less so on the strategy side. I think this comparison holds more similitude than with MOBAs or RTS.
I know that Dragon Age 2 faults with the combat system doesn't have to do with the fact that it is action oriented instead of slower and more strategical like its predecessor. But you can't argue with the fact that the shift completely changed the vision for the game and the franchise, for the worse.
When I see these action MMOs (NWO, TERA, etc.) they have fast paced, arguably exciting combat, but are generally F2P throwaway games which I would not care to invest more than a month or two, certainly not a year, because apart from the combat they have nothing else to offer long term. It's not how I like to play MMOs.
Yeah, but your opinion of the games doesn't really have anything to do with how much strategy and tactics it takes to be really good at them. The amount of strategy required to be successful doesn't change with the cooldown timer. The cooldown timer only requires you to make strategic decisions faster. You could get specific and say why you think one game involves more strategy than the other, but the cooldown timer is not what determines how much strategic planning and foresight one must develop in order to be successful.
I agreed with you, any type of combat can achieve a high level of strategy play. I never argued about what it takes to be good at a game or cooldown timers though so I don't really know what you are talking about after the first sentence.
I think we are all arguing opinions here. So mine has everything to do with it just as yours. We are all explaining why we like or dislike certain features of these games. The only facts in our arguments is in the mentioning of these features and systems. I happen to think that management of things like cooldowns and resources is one of the things that makes combat more strategic, and so I enjoy it more than a more action oriented combat like TERA's for instance. But me saying it is doesn't make it a fact, nor does you saying it isn't. Its just tastes and preferences, and our perspective on things.
Originally posted by Omgz zones and loading screens everywhere... and porno looking characters. lackluster combat and ez mode transportation everywhere. cant beleive anyone would play this tbh. Happy for those that like though, gratz!
The loading screens are not that bad and the Zones are quite large also I wouldn't say porno but I was a bit shocked when I noticed Yda had a cameltoe lol damn her shorts are tiny.
This IS one thing I found annoying is the loading screens. I have a HDD and am guessing a ssd would fix that though, be nice to hear some feedback from someone with a ssd.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I agreed with you, any type of combat can achieve a high level of strategy play. I never argued about what it takes to be good at a game or cooldown timers though so I don't really know what you are talking about after the first sentence.
I think we are all arguing opinions here. So mine has everything to do with it just as yours. We are all explaining why we like or dislike certain features of these games. The only facts in our arguments is in the mentioning of these features and systems. I happen to think that management of things like cooldowns and resources is one of the things that makes combat more strategic, and so I enjoy it more than a more action oriented combat like TERA's for instance. But me saying it is doesn't make it a fact, nor does you saying it isn't. Its just tastes and preferences, and our perspective on things.
Oh, well, when you said, "FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat," I thought that slower was referring to the 2.5 second cooldown which makes it slower than your typical tab target game. And personally I don't really care whether a game is more actiony or tab target as long as I find it enjoyable. I only intended to talk about how we often see the same argument that slow = strategic while fast = not strategic. It's just not true at all.
I agreed with you, any type of combat can achieve a high level of strategy play. I never argued about what it takes to be good at a game or cooldown timers though so I don't really know what you are talking about after the first sentence.
I think we are all arguing opinions here. So mine has everything to do with it just as yours. We are all explaining why we like or dislike certain features of these games. The only facts in our arguments is in the mentioning of these features and systems. I happen to think that management of things like cooldowns and resources is one of the things that makes combat more strategic, and so I enjoy it more than a more action oriented combat like TERA's for instance. But me saying it is doesn't make it a fact, nor does you saying it isn't. Its just tastes and preferences, and our perspective on things.
Oh, well, when you said, "FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat," I thought that slower was referring to the 2.5 second cooldown which makes it slower than your typical tab target game. And personally I don't really care whether a game is more actiony or tab target as long as I find it enjoyable. I only intended to talk about how we often see the same argument that slow = strategic while fast = not strategic. It's just not true at all.
When I said "FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat," I was referring to that the game's vision is different in that it is subscription based, long term play, tab targeting instead of not. And I argue that this type of combat (tab targeting) favors the long term goals of this game, especially when you compare it to its opposite (free to play, short term, action combat). This is, in turn, is how producer Yoshi-P explains the decision to go with this type of combat.
Yoshi-P explains his thought process and decision making and vision for the game rather well. It's refreshing to see this openness from a developer and instills faith in the product.
The game is still offering as any other game is ,housing will come.They laid out a year long plan for development,do not expect it to stop,Square is famous for creating new ideas instead of just maps and instances.
I will agree the initial classes are a bit bland,it will never match FFXI for depth how ever once you mix and match other classes it opens up a lot.
That is Square's version of creating longevity or as some call it grind.They have you spend a lot of time building your player and imo that is a good thing.You can do everything on that one player,so you never have to shelve it for an alt and toss all that hard work you spent on your main player.
Even when this game releases again,it will not be finished,Free companies and housing still need to be worked on.There will be a lot more content coming.Even for those that just want simple quests,they have added more in each patch.
Bottom line for this and every game,you won't fully enjoy it unless you open up and begin to group play.You don't need large guilds to enjoy the game at least until we find out more on Free Companies.IMO even a nice core of 5-8 can do most everything on hard level but even 2-3 can get by in the game.
Problem is other games offer just as much, but for free, FF XIV is asking for a box price plus subscription.
You forgot to add in the cash shop and the PTW items form those other "free" MMOs.
On a different note. After playing GW2 just under a year I welcome the change that FFXIV brings. I did not realize how much I even missed the trinity until I played a few dungeons in ARR. I think this game will be a great addition to my library of MMOs and it's easily worth a sub as long as they push out new content.
I probably still spend more per month playing GW2 than the 14.95 sub that FFXIV has (mainly because I think GW2 is great and want to support it).
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
I was able to beat it first time on my marauder
Why have you put "Playing the FFXIV ARR demo." under your Avatar? it isnt a Demo, though granted it gives you an insight. goes to show how ill informed you are.
I was invited into the Demo in phase 3 because I owned 1.0. They are trying to get us back playing so yes for us 1.0 players who were burned this is a demo, SE's second chance at impressing us. If you can't see the importance of bringing these players back.......
This is a problem for letting players like you into a beta test. They don't know the difference.
Comments
I certainly understand why tab targeting isn't your thing. If it's not, then I'm afraid that this is not your game. However Yoshi-P recently addressed the battle system critique that has been going on in a very convincing way. He says that tab targeting strategic combat favors the longevity of the game. He explains that in an action MMOs gamers get fatigued. Remember that repeating actions constantly is a staple of the genre (mob grind, long raid battles,etc). To avoid the fatigue of having to repeat these action thousands of times while having direct control of you character, action MMOs tend to be F2P throwaway games with lots of instant gratification which are meant to be enjoyed in short game sessions. The gamers that just power through F2P MMOs quickly find out that the content is short and just game hop to another F2P action MMO (see, NWO, Tera, etc.)
The vision for this game is totally different from that (subscription based, tab targeting strategic combat). The game is meant to be played for years. If it where more of an action MMO, players would get fatigued. This actually makes me think about games like ESO. Can you imagine wanting to farm some specific item from a mob and have to click on your mouse thousand of times because you have to actively click for every attack, and with that awful Elder Scrolls combat? For me this is not ideal. I like to multitask in MMOs. I like to chat while I'M grinding and questing, maybe even watch a little TV. This is simply not possible in an action oriented MMO.
Apparently people minds don't get fatigued from slow, boring and tedious activities.
And action gamers get fatigued? Give me a break, obviously Yoshi-P's never seriously played games where high APM (actions per minute) is required because those games are where you tend to see the same faces in the lobbies all day, and even if they quit, they're quick to comeback. Look no farther than Dota 2's lobby.
So in short, if it's fun, people will keep playing no matter how fast pace the action is(and AFAIK people tend to find fast pace actions fun and addictive, which is why games nowaday are getting more and more fast-paced)
Funny about this Yoshi-P guy, he talks much trying to justify his games designs and fanboys lap it up as words of God and see Yoshi-P as some sort of Einstein. But all I see in him is a frog sitting at the bottom of the well or a fox looking at the grapes above him.
Arguing just for the sake of arguing-^
And you compared a MOBA to a MMORPG.
I brought up Dota 2 to prove that high APM gamers don't quit quickly because of fatigue from high APM, and because it's a game that requires high APM, situational skills(similar to GW2), situational awareness, require high amount of team-work ,have long sessions of play and also have a lot of farming, it's more similar to MMORPGs regarding mindset than you think.
And the beauty of that is, each of those approaches can still be considered tactics.
Someone who's not so good at longer fights (some people just aren't tuned for extended fights, but do better in short-term "burn 'em down" types) would find those things a godsend, offsetting their weaknesses and making the fight more manageable and/or enjoyable for them.
The fight being discussed took me a couple tries before I got it right as well.
There's also the fight before that, the level 14 or 15 one where there are multiple targets to deal with. I died the first time, 'cause I approached it the wrong way. My help ended up dying and then it became apparent what I should have done differently. On the second go around, I selected my targets more carefully and won.
In dungeons, I've been able to use stun moves to cancel some enemies' more damaging moves. And it's not a skill on my "usual rotation", it's a special-case skill, with a higher cool-down. So I leave it available for just those situations.
So, yes, there are strategies to the fights, and it's not "just pressing 1,2,3 over and over again".... unless you're choosing to play it that way. In that case, all I can say is 1) You're the cause of your own boredom. 2) Good luck getting away with that as you get out of the early "learning" levels (remember, not everyone trying a MMO has played one before), the fights get tougher and more strategy is required.
Even though the combat and questing are nothing new, at all, there is something intangibly fun about ARR I can't quite put a finger on.
The characters, the world, the stories, the dialog.. I actually read the quest text, the cut scenes and mini boss battles... the animations and just feel to everything... when you hit with an ability it is just flashy enough to be "impactful" and really feel like it has weight. The sound design is incredible.
Everything just feels right, moves right, plays right, looks amazing...
Doesn't reinvent the wheel, but man it is a nice wheel.
In a world of clones, unorignal game design, poor production quality, or just a complete lack of addictive gameplay, FFXIV somehow manages to weave together juuuuuusssttt the right mix to deliver a unique and interesting game I can't wait to spend countless hours in.
I know many will not be able to look past the slower paced combat and kill/collect/fedex questing.
I understand some are just completely tired of it.
But the main story has thus far been worth the price of admission alone.
Throw in housing and grand companies and everything else I haven't seen yet, Guild leves and dungeons and raids are worth the price of subscription to me.
I think lots of people are so hell bent on "something new" and "something different" that they've forgotten what makes these games great. What makes these games worth subbing to.
To me, it's adventure. It's the feeling of awe and wonder and that push to keep going and see what is next, to hit that next milestone.
FFXIV:ARR has soul. It's classic, it's a bit old school, yet it's polished - refined. It's an evolution of the archetype, a step in the logical sequence.
I just need to find a good guild to pal around with. This is the kind of MMO experience best shared with others.
While I understand the preference for action combat, I think you are missing the point. It's not the high APM per se that leads to fatigue. High APM games (Moba, RTS) are fast paced and short, with lots of short term gratification. The fatigue in action MMOs does not come from the arguably high APM in battles but from having to repeat those "high" APM battles thousands of times for a long term goal (grinding, farming, etc). Recent MMOs have circumvented this fatigue by going with F2P models and promoting short play sessions (xp booster, selling gear, etc). Seasoned MMO gamers generally blast through these game because the model isn't desinged to sustain long term play on these levels, which is why we see a lot of game hoping lately.
FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat. You have multi classing with one character because it is expected that you will invest a lot of time in your one character. So the whole model is different.
People say that all the time on this site. I have no clue where they get that idea. Just look at Starcraft for an extremely strategic and tactical game and check out top player's actions per minute. Action combat, turn based combat and tab targeted long global cooldown combat can all require great strategy for top level play.
The game is still offering as any other game is ,housing will come.They laid out a year long plan for development,do not expect it to stop,Square is famous for creating new ideas instead of just maps and instances.
I will agree the initial classes are a bit bland,it will never match FFXI for depth how ever once you mix and match other classes it opens up a lot.
That is Square's version of creating longevity or as some call it grind.They have you spend a lot of time building your player and imo that is a good thing.You can do everything on that one player,so you never have to shelve it for an alt and toss all that hard work you spent on your main player.
Even when this game releases again,it will not be finished,Free companies and housing still need to be worked on.There will be a lot more content coming.Even for those that just want simple quests,they have added more in each patch.
Bottom line for this and every game,you won't fully enjoy it unless you open up and begin to group play.You don't need large guilds to enjoy the game at least until we find out more on Free Companies.IMO even a nice core of 5-8 can do most everything on hard level but even 2-3 can get by in the game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It's ok if you feel this game is not for you. However it does not make it better or worse than any other offering out there, just different. Now you know the game's vision and direction. I think you would not enjoy this game so feel free to walk on to any other game out there.
I'm really looking forward to this game. It appeals to me. I want an MMO that I can play for years and not be level cap epics waiting on the mailbox a month after starting.
I was invited into the Demo in phase 3 because I owned 1.0. They are trying to get us back playing so yes for us 1.0 players who were burned this is a demo, SE's second chance at impressing us. If you can't see the importance of bringing these players back.......
Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
PS3
I can show you exactly how much it opens up for a Conjurer. Outside of a Conjurers class skills, these are what they can pick up in addition to what's on this page.
Some are nice for a Conjurer, some not so much. They are mostly cooldown skills that add a temporary buff. This is all of the side stuff that they can pick up if they chose to do so.
I will stipulate that all types of combat can be strategic.
However,from my perspective, a more reasonable comparison would be how Dragon Age Origins combat is slower and more strategic, while Dragon Age 2's is more action oriented and less so on the strategy side. I think this comparison holds more similitude than with MOBAs or RTS.
I know that Dragon Age 2 faults with the combat system doesn't have to do with the fact that it is action oriented instead of slower and more strategical like its predecessor. But you can't argue with the fact that the shift completely changed the vision for the game and the franchise, for the worse.
When I see these action MMOs (NWO, TERA, etc.) they have fast paced, arguably exciting combat, but are generally F2P throwaway games which I would not care to invest more than a month or two, certainly not a year, because apart from the combat they have nothing else to offer long term. It's not how I like to play MMOs.
Problem is other games offer just as much, but for free, FF XIV is asking for a box price plus subscription.
Yeah, but your opinion of the games doesn't really have anything to do with how much strategy and tactics it takes to be really good at them. The amount of strategy required to be successful doesn't change with the cooldown timer. The cooldown timer only requires you to make strategic decisions faster. You could get specific and say why you think one game involves more strategy than the other, but the cooldown timer is not what determines how much strategic planning and foresight one must develop in order to be successful.
I think you should recommend specific games which offer just as much, rather than making vague statements.
Rift, Neverwinter, LoTRO, TERA
All these games offer "just as much" and are free, I think many of us here have played them. Yet we are playing FFXIV, to me that means that those games didn't offer just as much for free. I don't think throwing money away is what attracts people to one game over another (unless you can throw your money at the game to get stuff because that is part of the game design like in f2p then you could make the argument that people play those games specifically so they can throw RL cash at it)
But maybe you know of a f2p MMO that is better than this game and we just don't know about it. You would do us a favor by showing us why we shouldn't bother paying for what we can get better in a f2p MMO.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
EH what lol?
Fun is subjective so I repeat if you like twitchy combat it may be "better" for you but if you don't, like me it isn't. See how that goes. Just because you like one type of combat over another doesn't make it the golden age of MMOs.
I think they did a great move to move away from "action combat" every other mmo and his dog this last year wants" action combat. One of the great things about rpgs was the fact you didn't need mario bros skills to play them. You could level up and become stronger that way etc.
As for lagg thats funny I didn't lagg once this weekend and I live in north america. Guess it because I joined one of the many north american servers they had instead of one the many jp servers!!!!
I say good on you SE traditional isn't always bad!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
I would recommend having a look at ArcheAge, recently gone F2P in Korea and most likely will also be F2P in the West. Yes I know it's sandbox but it offers many things that is similar to FF XIV and much more. And general reception so far has been nothing less than acclaim.
Oh btw admit it, many of you are here mainly because it's Final Fantasy and not because this game offers more than others,you Murugan for example, you've been here fanboying this game since the game's still 1.0, when it was completely garbage and quite different from what it is today.
I agreed with you, any type of combat can achieve a high level of strategy play. I never argued about what it takes to be good at a game or cooldown timers though so I don't really know what you are talking about after the first sentence.
I think we are all arguing opinions here. So mine has everything to do with it just as yours. We are all explaining why we like or dislike certain features of these games. The only facts in our arguments is in the mentioning of these features and systems. I happen to think that management of things like cooldowns and resources is one of the things that makes combat more strategic, and so I enjoy it more than a more action oriented combat like TERA's for instance. But me saying it is doesn't make it a fact, nor does you saying it isn't. Its just tastes and preferences, and our perspective on things.
This IS one thing I found annoying is the loading screens. I have a HDD and am guessing a ssd would fix that though, be nice to hear some feedback from someone with a ssd.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Oh, well, when you said, "FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat," I thought that slower was referring to the 2.5 second cooldown which makes it slower than your typical tab target game. And personally I don't really care whether a game is more actiony or tab target as long as I find it enjoyable. I only intended to talk about how we often see the same argument that slow = strategic while fast = not strategic. It's just not true at all.
When I said "FF14's vision is different in this regard, hence the slower paced tab targeting strategic combat," I was referring to that the game's vision is different in that it is subscription based, long term play, tab targeting instead of not. And I argue that this type of combat (tab targeting) favors the long term goals of this game, especially when you compare it to its opposite (free to play, short term, action combat). This is, in turn, is how producer Yoshi-P explains the decision to go with this type of combat.
If interested at all in the game, or just curious (and if you haven't already), I invite you or anyone to read this post http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/446/view/forums/thread/388196/yoshida-explanations.html.
Yoshi-P explains his thought process and decision making and vision for the game rather well. It's refreshing to see this openness from a developer and instills faith in the product.
You forgot to add in the cash shop and the PTW items form those other "free" MMOs.
On a different note. After playing GW2 just under a year I welcome the change that FFXIV brings. I did not realize how much I even missed the trinity until I played a few dungeons in ARR. I think this game will be a great addition to my library of MMOs and it's easily worth a sub as long as they push out new content.
I probably still spend more per month playing GW2 than the 14.95 sub that FFXIV has (mainly because I think GW2 is great and want to support it).
This is a problem for letting players like you into a beta test. They don't know the difference.