Maybe i just have an outdated way of thinking. But for me graphics, like combat are just a bonus. All the mmo's that made an impact in my gamer carreer were mmo's that had nothing to do with combat or graphics.
What mattered is that they had ways to make you need other people, and force you to play with others. You had immersion, and the story of the world, and you'r involvement mattered. And you had shitload of content, and never ran out of stuff to do. The immersion, and charisma of the NPC's story and World and the bonding factor of the game are really what made me play a game like EQ or WOW vanilla for several years, and what made me play Terra, GW2, or NW for 2 weeks each ...
In wow vanilla, we had no PVP battlegrounds, or arena's. Well i can assure you we pvp'd all day in several open world zones none the less and it was freaken awsome. In EQ, combat was dull, and boring, yet people are still playin that game more than a decade after its release.
I feel that all the ''new'' mechanics, and improvements and innovation and revolutions just spoil gamers and take away the fun out of an MMO. Give players a world that they can care about and get involved in, and let them create their own way of having fun. I had fun running past all the karana plains in EQ just for the fun of it. Or trying to find my way around mistmoor castle, or doing corps runs in kitikor forest by night coz i crossed it at dawn. We used to have fun just doing silly stuff. And i see that in this Beta, guilds running naked in zones 10 lvls above them, people grouping to take awsome screenshots at weird locations and groups forming for guildleves and stuff and it's pretty cool. In the 3 last mmo's i played, i never felt the need to group or be part of a guild or anything since they were basicly solo RPG's with a friendlist. And FFXIV isn't, so its pretty much a win as far as i'm concerned.
In FF:XIV they definitly aced the Immersion factor, the world, the grouping dynamic, you need others, you will do guildleves to level faster and have more challenge, the story force you into dungeons and group play, grouping open up so much and while you can solo, you just hinder yourself doing so. The world is beautiful, interesting and the story behind it is engaging and awsome.
I don't have that sickness where i need to bash buttons as fast as possible to enjoy playing a game, an mmo isn't a fighting game such as street fighters or what not, so i'm pretty much satisfied with the combat system and i can aknowledge that it's maybe not to the liking of everbody. But combat itself, isn't what makes an mmo successfull, it is just one mechanic among others, and i spent ages spaming the same spell rotation in EQ and i never got bored 1 bit, and i think it will be the same with FF:XIV ARR.
Providing this was first MMO i ever played. Or second. Maybe I would like it and have suggestions on how to improve it.
But I played every MMO that came past 2004.
So I played this MMO allready 30-40 times in different packages.
For me and people like me, there is no chance for this - hence no suggestion on how to improve it.
If you have so much experience should you not then have the most to offer in the way of suggestions?
The game is still in beta, and unlike most games, they actually are changing quite a lot of it based off user suggestion. I merely was trying to point out that perhaps if you didn't like it you could explain what you would do to improve it.
I myself started playing MMOs with Ultima Online in 1997, I myself really enjoy the combat, and the only thing I might change would be a slightly shorter GCD. (Global Cool Down)
The complexity and interaction of the combat systems of games like WoW/Rift and now FFXIV comes from coordinated party play.
FFXIV reminds me so very much (thus far) of Vanilla/BC WoW.
Time will tell if that is a good thing or not.
The problem I see with all this back and forth is that the arguments against the system are being made in a completely 2-dimensional way. It's all based on "how many skills do you get at the lower levels and over time". And it seems that every other assumption about the system (which is what much of the remarks in this thread have been) has been poorly informed. People are casting judgment and opining on a system they demonstrably know or understand very little about. So, the result is a lot of conjecture and plain wrong information being tossed about.
First of all, every single MMO out there, starts off with the basics. None of them throw you right into the deep end, to fend with yourself against all those who've played a lot longer. They all start you off with a few basic skills and then open up to more as you progress and improve. So the complaint that XIV's combat is very basic at the beginning, as though it's some kind of serious mark against it, is just ridiculous. It's entirely disingenuous. You could say the same for any other MMO that has come out, or will come out.
Yoshi-P has stated as much, very recently in explanations which were copied and pasted here on these forums. They're a long read, so likely many probably didn't even bother. Regardless, he's stated that his ideas for the combat system are:
1. To remember that, while experienced MMO players can jump into a new MMO, need very little training and know what to do off the bat, new players to MMOs are not so familiar. So, those first 15 levels in XIV being simpler and less involved is a deliberate decision to make the game approachable and not overwhelming for people new to MMOs in general. The first 15 levels, he also states, are intended to be soloable, so new players can learn the basics. And make no mistake, there's a few tough fights in there.
At level 15 is when the dungeon content begins and you have to start grouping up and coordinating with other players. But even at that, it's not cranked up to 10. It does certainly become more involved, though.
2. He's stated that the fundamentals of the combat system are "simpler", however, the utilization of those skills - comboing with other players in a group, choosing the best combo for a given enemy or situation, etc.. all those things become more important over time, and increase as you gain more skills.
With Limit Breaks, for example, the entire group fills up that Limit Break bar.. however, how quickly the bar fills up depends on how effectively players are performing. If you cancel a powerful move by an enemy and time it well, you're rewarded by a nice boost to the Limit Break gauge, for example. Figuring out the most effective tactics to use, the most effective combos and such with different creatures takes time, experience, coordination and practice. He's explained this publicly.
There's also a bit of coordination taking place in the execution of Limit Breaks. I'm not sure how much is covered under NDA about those, so I won't say too much. Suffice to say, there's a layer of detail added to fights through that system.
3. Positioning is an important factor. Being in the position to make the most of an attack is a worthwhile effort.
4. Enemies will have body parts that can be broken or crippled in some way, making a fight more manageable, or even possible in the first place.
5. Regarding the "limited number of skills per class". Remember that through XIV's Armory system,you can mix and match skills from other classes you've leveled up to a given skill's required level. This gives a player a remarkable amount of flexibility in how they setup and play their character. Not only in solo situations, but groups as well. Even when you switch to a Job, which is a specialized version of a Class, there's a bit of flexibility there.
The basics of the game - the process of selecting targets and using skills - is very basic, because there's no need for it not to be. Why add needless complexity to something that doesn't require it? So some people can feel better about "playing a game with a more complex combat system"?
The complexity of the system comes into play in all the ways those skills can be used and combined and coordinated across the game. Not in how many skills are on your hotbar, or whether it's Tab-Targeting or Action-Based. I played TERA up to about level 58, as a Warrior. Despite being action combat, the combat system itself was never very complicated. I did'n't even use that wide a variety of skills overall. What mattered the most was when and how I used those skills against a given enemy. It's the same thing with XIV.
The point is, there's a lot of criticism being leveled at XIV's combat system by people who have very selective memory when it comes to how MMOs start off new players/characters; and are throwing out opinions about something they demonstrably have either not played far enough, or bothered to look into enough to do so.
The complexity and interaction of the combat systems of games like WoW/Rift and now FFXIV comes from coordinated party play.
FFXIV reminds me so very much (thus far) of Vanilla/BC WoW.
Time will tell if that is a good thing or not.
The problem I see with all this back and forth is that the arguments against the system are being made in a completely 2-dimensional way. It's all based on "how many skills do you get at the lower levels and over time". And it seems that every other assumption about the system (which is what much of the remarks in this thread have been) has been poorly informed. People are casting judgment and opining on a system they demonstrably know or understand very little about. So, the result is a lot of conjecture and plain wrong information being tossed about.
First of all, every single MMO out there, starts off with the basics. None of them throw you right into the deep end, to fend with yourself against all those who've played a lot longer. They all start you off with a few basic skills and then open up to more as you progress and improve. So the complaint that XIV's combat is very basic at the beginning, as though it's some kind of serious mark against it, is just ridiculous. It's entirely disingenuous. You could say the same for any other MMO that has come out, or will come out.
Yoshi-P has stated as much, very recently in explanations which were copied and pasted here on these forums. They're a long read, so likely many probably didn't even bother. Regardless, he's stated that his ideas for the combat system are:
1. To remember that, while experienced MMO players can jump into a new MMO, need very little training and know what to do off the bat, new players to MMOs are not so familiar. So, those first 15 levels in XIV being simpler and less involved is a deliberate decision to make the game approachable and not overwhelming for people new to MMOs in general. The first 15 levels, he also states, are intended to be soloable, so new players can learn the basics. And make no mistake, there's a few tough fights in there.
At level 15 is when the dungeon content begins and you have to start grouping up and coordinating with other players. But even at that, it's not cranked up to 10. It does certainly become more involved, though.
2. He's stated that the fundamentals of the combat system are "simpler", however, the utilization of those skills - comboing with other players in a group, choosing the best combo for a given enemy or situation, etc.. all those things become more important over time, and increase as you gain more skills.
With Limit Breaks, for example, the entire group fills up that Limit Break bar.. however, how quickly the bar fills up depends on how effectively players are performing. If you cancel a powerful move by an enemy and time it well, you're rewarded by a nice boost to the Limit Break gauge, for example. Figuring out the most effective tactics to use, the most effective combos and such with different creatures takes time, experience, coordination and practice. He's explained this publicly.
There's also a bit of coordination taking place in the execution of Limit Breaks. I'm not sure how much is covered under NDA about those, so I won't say too much. Suffice to say, there's a layer of detail added to fights through that system.
3. Positioning is an important factor. Being in the position to make the most of an attack is a worthwhile effort.
4. Enemies will have body parts that can be broken or crippled in some way, making a fight more manageable, or even possible in the first place.
5. Regarding the "limited number of skills per class". Remember that through XIV's Armory system,you can mix and match skills from other classes you've leveled up to a given skill's required level. This gives a player a remarkable amount of flexibility in how they setup and play their character. Not only in solo situations, but groups as well. Even when you switch to a Job, which is a specialized version of a Class, there's a bit of flexibility there.
The basics of the game - the process of selecting targets and using skills - is very basic, because there's no need for it not to be. Why add needless complexity to something that doesn't require it? So some people can feel better about "playing a game with a more complex combat system"?
The complexity of the system comes into play in all the ways those skills can be used and combined and coordinated across the game. Not in how many skills are on your hotbar, or whether it's Tab-Targeting or Action-Based. I played TERA up to about level 58, as a Warrior. Despite being action combat, the combat system itself was never very complicated. I did'n't even use that wide a variety of skills overall. What mattered the most was when and how I used those skills against a given enemy. It's the same thing with XIV.
The point is, there's a lot of criticism being leveled at XIV's combat system by people who have very selective memory when it comes to how MMOs start off new players/characters; and are throwing out opinions about something they demonstrably have either not played far enough, or bothered to look into enough to do so.
I like the sound of the group play dynamics, but as someone who likes to solo play fairly often (sometimes I really don't have the time, nor the desire to group) I'm hoping for similar complexity in the solo game. I don't really know anything about the limit break system yet -- will it be available to solo players as well, or is it strictly a group thing?
What indication is there that the genre is "leaning toward action combat"? Because a few MMOs have come out with it?
Where have you been for the last few years? Every NEW MMORPG has action combat.
Keyword: New.
The old crap from asian territories being localized years after their release are not new games. New games are GW2, RaiderZ, TERA, Dragon's Prophet, Neverwinter, Blade & Soul, Arch A.. oh wait.
Arch Age is the only NEW MMORPG I've seen that still uses the outdated auto-attack hotkey based combat system. Everything else is action combat.
As I said previously: The vanilla release of FFXIV HAD ACTION COMBAT, to a degree. It was basic and rooted you (moreso than Neverwinter does), but it was action oriented.
If you look at my sig, I've played FFXI for over 2 years before quitting. When they changed FFXIV into FFXI-2, I quit. I cannot stand auto-attack based games anymore; they are horribly boring.
??? Ignore other games to prove your point. Look at other games. You convinently forgot forgot TSW, Darkfalls, Rift and of course Final Fantasy. Out of those you mentioned I wouldn't call them "action" anymore than final fantasy 12 was an action based system.
The complexity and interaction of the combat systems of games like WoW/Rift and now FFXIV comes from coordinated party play.
FFXIV reminds me so very much (thus far) of Vanilla/BC WoW.
Time will tell if that is a good thing or not.
The problem I see with all this back and forth is that the arguments against the system are being made in a completely 2-dimensional way. It's all based on "how many skills do you get at the lower levels and over time". And it seems that every other assumption about the system (which is what much of the remarks in this thread have been) has been poorly informed. People are casting judgment and opining on a system they demonstrably know or understand very little about. So, the result is a lot of conjecture and plain wrong information being tossed about.
First of all, every single MMO out there, starts off with the basics. None of them throw you right into the deep end, to fend with yourself against all those who've played a lot longer. They all start you off with a few basic skills and then open up to more as you progress and improve. So the complaint that XIV's combat is very basic at the beginning, as though it's some kind of serious mark against it, is just ridiculous. It's entirely disingenuous. You could say the same for any other MMO that has come out, or will come out.
Yoshi-P has stated as much, very recently in explanations which were copied and pasted here on these forums. They're a long read, so likely many probably didn't even bother. Regardless, he's stated that his ideas for the combat system are:
1. To remember that, while experienced MMO players can jump into a new MMO, need very little training and know what to do off the bat, new players to MMOs are not so familiar. So, those first 15 levels in XIV being simpler and less involved is a deliberate decision to make the game approachable and not overwhelming for people new to MMOs in general. The first 15 levels, he also states, are intended to be soloable, so new players can learn the basics. And make no mistake, there's a few tough fights in there.
At level 15 is when the dungeon content begins and you have to start grouping up and coordinating with other players. But even at that, it's not cranked up to 10. It does certainly become more involved, though.
2. He's stated that the fundamentals of the combat system are "simpler", however, the utilization of those skills - comboing with other players in a group, choosing the best combo for a given enemy or situation, etc.. all those things become more important over time, and increase as you gain more skills.
With Limit Breaks, for example, the entire group fills up that Limit Break bar.. however, how quickly the bar fills up depends on how effectively players are performing. If you cancel a powerful move by an enemy and time it well, you're rewarded by a nice boost to the Limit Break gauge, for example. Figuring out the most effective tactics to use, the most effective combos and such with different creatures takes time, experience, coordination and practice. He's explained this publicly.
There's also a bit of coordination taking place in the execution of Limit Breaks. I'm not sure how much is covered under NDA about those, so I won't say too much. Suffice to say, there's a layer of detail added to fights through that system.
3. Positioning is an important factor. Being in the position to make the most of an attack is a worthwhile effort.
4. Enemies will have body parts that can be broken or crippled in some way, making a fight more manageable, or even possible in the first place.
5. Regarding the "limited number of skills per class". Remember that through XIV's Armory system,you can mix and match skills from other classes you've leveled up to a given skill's required level. This gives a player a remarkable amount of flexibility in how they setup and play their character. Not only in solo situations, but groups as well. Even when you switch to a Job, which is a specialized version of a Class, there's a bit of flexibility there.
The basics of the game - the process of selecting targets and using skills - is very basic, because there's no need for it not to be. Why add needless complexity to something that doesn't require it? So some people can feel better about "playing a game with a more complex combat system"?
The complexity of the system comes into play in all the ways those skills can be used and combined and coordinated across the game. Not in how many skills are on your hotbar, or whether it's Tab-Targeting or Action-Based. I played TERA up to about level 58, as a Warrior. Despite being action combat, the combat system itself was never very complicated. I did'n't even use that wide a variety of skills overall. What mattered the most was when and how I used those skills against a given enemy. It's the same thing with XIV.
The point is, there's a lot of criticism being leveled at XIV's combat system by people who have very selective memory when it comes to how MMOs start off new players/characters; and are throwing out opinions about something they demonstrably have either not played far enough, or bothered to look into enough to do so.
I like the sound of the group play dynamics, but as someone who likes to solo play fairly often (sometimes I really don't have the time, nor the desire to group) I'm hoping for similar complexity in the solo game. I don't really know anything about the limit break system yet -- will it be available to solo players as well, or is it strictly a group thing?
I like a game that isn't afraid to have an identiy. I'm all for someone telling me that if i want to solo there are 12 other final fantasies to choose from
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
What indication is there that the genre is "leaning toward action combat"? Because a few MMOs have come out with it?
Where have you been for the last few years? Every NEW MMORPG has action combat.
Keyword: New.
The old crap from asian territories being localized years after their release are not new games. New games are GW2, RaiderZ, TERA, Dragon's Prophet, Neverwinter, Blade & Soul, Arch A.. oh wait.
Arch Age is the only NEW MMORPG I've seen that still uses the outdated auto-attack hotkey based combat system. Everything else is action combat.
As I said previously: The vanilla release of FFXIV HAD ACTION COMBAT, to a degree. It was basic and rooted you (moreso than Neverwinter does), but it was action oriented.
If you look at my sig, I've played FFXI for over 2 years before quitting. When they changed FFXIV into FFXI-2, I quit. I cannot stand auto-attack based games anymore; they are horribly boring.
Just because companies go towards something new doesn't mean it's "better". Take all those games you have mentioned there are crowds that love em and some that hate em. I was a big fan of Neverwinter but frankly the combat is kind of sucky and so is the game imo.
I mean it's great if you like the arcade style crap like from the 80s but not everyone does. I personally like the old traditional non twitch combat. The combat you seem to enjoy isn't a second coming, it's just a newish flavor.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
One way I've seen a lot of people beat it is by leveling conjurer up till you get cure (level 2) and it makes the fight extremely easy.
Edit: Also, if you want to make it so easy you can sit back and play Ninja Gaiden at the same time, you could level Conjurer to 8 and get protect as well. It still pays to bring along a few antidotes.
The complexity and interaction of the combat systems of games like WoW/Rift and now FFXIV comes from coordinated party play.
FFXIV reminds me so very much (thus far) of Vanilla/BC WoW.
Time will tell if that is a good thing or not.
The problem I see with all this back and forth is that the arguments against the system are being made in a completely 2-dimensional way. It's all based on "how many skills do you get at the lower levels and over time". And it seems that every other assumption about the system (which is what much of the remarks in this thread have been) has been poorly informed. People are casting judgment and opining on a system they demonstrably know or understand very little about. So, the result is a lot of conjecture and plain wrong information being tossed about.
First of all, every single MMO out there, starts off with the basics. None of them throw you right into the deep end, to fend with yourself against all those who've played a lot longer. They all start you off with a few basic skills and then open up to more as you progress and improve. So the complaint that XIV's combat is very basic at the beginning, as though it's some kind of serious mark against it, is just ridiculous. It's entirely disingenuous. You could say the same for any other MMO that has come out, or will come out.
Yoshi-P has stated as much, very recently in explanations which were copied and pasted here on these forums. They're a long read, so likely many probably didn't even bother. Regardless, he's stated that his ideas for the combat system are:
1. To remember that, while experienced MMO players can jump into a new MMO, need very little training and know what to do off the bat, new players to MMOs are not so familiar. So, those first 15 levels in XIV being simpler and less involved is a deliberate decision to make the game approachable and not overwhelming for people new to MMOs in general. The first 15 levels, he also states, are intended to be soloable, so new players can learn the basics. And make no mistake, there's a few tough fights in there.
At level 15 is when the dungeon content begins and you have to start grouping up and coordinating with other players. But even at that, it's not cranked up to 10. It does certainly become more involved, though.
2. He's stated that the fundamentals of the combat system are "simpler", however, the utilization of those skills - comboing with other players in a group, choosing the best combo for a given enemy or situation, etc.. all those things become more important over time, and increase as you gain more skills.
With Limit Breaks, for example, the entire group fills up that Limit Break bar.. however, how quickly the bar fills up depends on how effectively players are performing. If you cancel a powerful move by an enemy and time it well, you're rewarded by a nice boost to the Limit Break gauge, for example. Figuring out the most effective tactics to use, the most effective combos and such with different creatures takes time, experience, coordination and practice. He's explained this publicly.
There's also a bit of coordination taking place in the execution of Limit Breaks. I'm not sure how much is covered under NDA about those, so I won't say too much. Suffice to say, there's a layer of detail added to fights through that system.
3. Positioning is an important factor. Being in the position to make the most of an attack is a worthwhile effort.
4. Enemies will have body parts that can be broken or crippled in some way, making a fight more manageable, or even possible in the first place.
5. Regarding the "limited number of skills per class". Remember that through XIV's Armory system,you can mix and match skills from other classes you've leveled up to a given skill's required level. This gives a player a remarkable amount of flexibility in how they setup and play their character. Not only in solo situations, but groups as well. Even when you switch to a Job, which is a specialized version of a Class, there's a bit of flexibility there.
The basics of the game - the process of selecting targets and using skills - is very basic, because there's no need for it not to be. Why add needless complexity to something that doesn't require it? So some people can feel better about "playing a game with a more complex combat system"?
The complexity of the system comes into play in all the ways those skills can be used and combined and coordinated across the game. Not in how many skills are on your hotbar, or whether it's Tab-Targeting or Action-Based. I played TERA up to about level 58, as a Warrior. Despite being action combat, the combat system itself was never very complicated. I did'n't even use that wide a variety of skills overall. What mattered the most was when and how I used those skills against a given enemy. It's the same thing with XIV.
The point is, there's a lot of criticism being leveled at XIV's combat system by people who have very selective memory when it comes to how MMOs start off new players/characters; and are throwing out opinions about something they demonstrably have either not played far enough, or bothered to look into enough to do so.
I like the sound of the group play dynamics, but as someone who likes to solo play fairly often (sometimes I really don't have the time, nor the desire to group) I'm hoping for similar complexity in the solo game. I don't really know anything about the limit break system yet -- will it be available to solo players as well, or is it strictly a group thing?
I like a game that isn't afraid to have an identiy. I'm all for someone telling me that if i want to solo there are 12 other final fantasies to choose from
As if there aren't plenty of other perfectly legitimate reasons to play an mmorpg over a single player, aside from the grouping aspect...
And if you hadn't noticed, the game is already solo friendly, so that strawman is pointless here. Try again.
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
I was able to beat it first time on my marauder
Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing. PS3
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
I was able to beat it first time on my marauder
Why have you put "Playing the FFXIV ARR demo." under your Avatar? it isnt a Demo, though granted it gives you an insight. goes to show how ill informed you are.
So, while everyone is talking about the combat, I decided to look up the the full skill list in FFXIV. What I noticed is that my character in game has like a quarter of the skills available to them that is on the list.
And here is what I am apparently now able to learn as a Thaumaturge List
So... did they just gut the skills incredibly since the last version?
Yes they reduced the number but at the same time made the skills you have now much more interactive and you can instantly tell a good THM from a bad THM. Just read the skills and how they combo off each other for free high damage spells and effects plus keeping your refresh with Umbral Ice going while nuking like a maniac.
If you have not played it you don't realize that this is a very complex system and its not mashing 1-2-3. If you do not react off your combo triggers you wasting mana, damage and most likely get killed. I would share a video but right now it's not allowed.
I did some testing with THM and BLM on level 50 elementals and boy is there a difference between people spamming 1-2-3 and people paying attention to their spells and combos.
At lower levels there are not as many combos and it is a little boring, i admit that.
"Give players systems and tools instead of rails and rules"
So, while everyone is talking about the combat, I decided to look up the the full skill list in FFXIV. What I noticed is that my character in game has like a quarter of the skills available to them that is on the list.
And here is what I am apparently now able to learn as a Thaumaturge List
So... did they just gut the skills incredibly since the last version?
Yes they reduced the number but at the same time made the skills you have now much more interactive and you can instantly tell a good THM from a bad THM. Just read the skills and how they combo off each other for free high damage spells and effects plus keeping your refresh with Umbral Ice going while nuking like a maniac.
If you have not played it you don't realize that this is a very complex system and its not mashing 1-2-3. If you do not react off your combo triggers you wasting mana, damage and most likely get killed. I would share a video but right now it's not allowed.
I did some testing with THM and BLM on level 50 elementals and boy is there a difference between people spamming 1-2-3 and people paying attention to their spells and combos.
At lower levels there are not as many combos and it is a little boring, i admit that.
I've played a Thaumaturge to 22. It is so simplistic as to be extremely boring. Drop a thunder dot, spam the fire skill, switch the buff to ice when mana is low and spam blizzard, switch the buff back to fire when your mana is full and spam fire again. Keep up dot if big enemy. Add on to that that I get like 2.5 seconds in between casts and it's one of the simplest experiences I've had dpsing in an MMORPG.
??? Ignore other games to prove your point. Look at other games. You convinently forgot forgot TSW, Darkfalls, Rift and of course Final Fantasy. Out of those you mentioned I wouldn't call them "action" anymore than final fantasy 12 was an action based system.
Forgot about TSW. I originally thought it had action combat, but unfortunately it's target and hotkey based. Completely ruined the game's enjoyment for me. The story wasn't going to carry it.
Darkfall I've never played and have no interest in, so I can't comment.
Rift is NOT new and a complete WoWclone in every aspect.
Final Fantasy what? Look at the new one, 15, it's full on action combat.
And to argue a point, 12 kind of was action based, though it still used the age old ATB system in the action environment, which made it feel like auto attack. But no, that's a single player game and far more action than the traditional single player FF games that came before it.
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Just because companies go towards something new doesn't mean it's "better". Take all those games you have mentioned there are crowds that love em and some that hate em. I was a big fan of Neverwinter but frankly the combat is kind of sucky and so is the game imo.
I mean it's great if you like the arcade style crap like from the 80s but not everyone does. I personally like the old traditional non twitch combat. The combat you seem to enjoy isn't a second coming, it's just a newish flavor.
It's better because it's more fun, it's more involving, it's more reaction, and to a degree, twitch based.
The sole reason I enjoyed Neverwinter was because of the combat. Originally I thought it was going to be trash because it was designed to root you in place when you attacked, but I had fun with it for some reason. The rest of the game was absolute trash though and an insult to D&D; though I guess 4E is an insult to D&D as well..
Arcade style crap from the 80s? What?
What MMORPGs were there that had non auto-attack based combat? Very, very few, and if they did they sacrificed other elements to do so because the technology wasn't there yet.
The action based systems of today are so much better and much more prevalent because the technology has improved to the point where it can be supported on a massive scale. This is the golden era of MMORPGs; things can be done that couldn't be done before (or done far, far better).
FFXIV after sweeping design changes is an exception to this rule. They really did make a wrong decision by moving back to the auto-attack system, though honestly, the amount of lag due to the server hosting location (no regional servers in this day and age is ludicrous) pretty much ruined any hope the game had of supporting an action combat system.. outside of Japan at any rate.
Originally posted by Omgz zones and loading screens everywhere... and porno looking characters. lackluster combat and ez mode transportation everywhere. cant beleive anyone would play this tbh. Happy for those that like though, gratz!
You sure you're not playing TERA and not FFXIV:ARR?
Originally posted by Omgz zones and loading screens everywhere... and porno looking characters. lackluster combat and ez mode transportation everywhere. cant beleive anyone would play this tbh. Happy for those that like though, gratz!
The loading screens are not that bad and the Zones are quite large also I wouldn't say porno but I was a bit shocked when I noticed Yda had a cameltoe lol damn her shorts are tiny.
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
Lol I died twice before I found out about the antipoison also I just ran around the tree in circles while attacking though i was an archer so I could attack on the run which seeing as almost all of the minion's attacks were melee kept me safe now however after you kill the minion the black mage hits like crazy he got me down to 20hp quite quickly even with a Hi-Potion you just have to survive until Yda and the Lalafel guy show up and they will heal you.
What was far more annoying was the level 15 archer quest.... died quite a few times and I had the greatest finish ever I killed the boss as I was about to die. I fired my last arrow at 4Hp as an enemy's mage attack was coming at me I thought I was dead then I saw "Instance Complete", or whatever it says, and I literally yelled out "Hell Yeah!!!" lmao.
What I dont get is people posting about the combat that has not reach what level 11 maybe 15 and complaining about the combat. Yet they only experienced a fraction of the combat. At level 30 of your first class you start getting interesting abilities. Once you get your second class to level 15 you will get your Job abilities. As you level both classes up to 50 your abilities get stronger and more abilities. At level 11 you have seen nothing just like all MMOs FFXIV starts off slow and builds you up, however people are going to be so critical of FFXIV why? Because maybe they see it as a real threat to other MMOs that are coming out that really they want to do well however have very little content to the game.
What you dont get is that people dislike the combat mechanic, and that wont change no matter what level you are. For some (me included) tab fighting is extremely boring, for others its heaven. I for one agree with the lack of inovation but thats me. Press 1, wait, press 2, wait, press 3, wait. Oh but we can move around and such..... well doesnt matter much now does it, at least for a melee class, since mob will hit you no matter where you are if your in his range, so might as well stand still pressing 1-5 while i watch a movie on the side.
1. you have to position yourself and move around during big fights. Bosses have certain aoe moves that land in a variety of areas and you have to actively run and position yourself pretty much all the time for all major boss fights.
2. it isn't just 1-2-3. you get skills that buff you, and debuff the enemy. you learn skills from other classes. it's more about determining the best way to do things with your combos. "okay this is a boss, so i have time to apply the crit hit bonus attack, then i should use my attack that boosts my damage. but i have to be careful if i use this ability as it leaves me vulnerable for 5 seconds after and unable to use ws's. wait i'm running low on hp, i have to use this ability before i pop the others so i can get more hp back for the damage i'm going to do. let me first stun the enemy so i don't get hit while i charge it up"
- this is going through my mind 90% of the time in boss fights
3. OP according to his post date, posted 6 minutes after beta opened. -_-
4. For people that want it to have a more action feel: you get skill speed and spell speed + to lower the global cooldowns.
- For people that want it to stay more strategic: the gcd's will get lower as you get geared up, but you still have to balance all of this with your TP consumption.
("But blaze... I ALWAYS have full tp! Even in boss fights!... Well little timmy, you're doing it wrong."
5. It's not for everyone. If it's not what you like; there's no need to rush to a website and jump all over a game that people enjoy. If it is what you like; there's no need to engage and argue with people who obviously have a different opinion than you. Part of the reason no "WoW Killer" has come out is due to the divisions within the mmorpg community. Getting pissed off at someone for not liking the same thing as you... imagine all the fights that would cause on a playground:
"YOU NO LIEK CHOCOLATE ICE CREAM!?" "STRAWBERRY!"
"I PLAY IN SANDBOXES" "I LIKE THE SWINGS AND SLIDES"
Comments
Maybe i just have an outdated way of thinking. But for me graphics, like combat are just a bonus. All the mmo's that made an impact in my gamer carreer were mmo's that had nothing to do with combat or graphics.
What mattered is that they had ways to make you need other people, and force you to play with others. You had immersion, and the story of the world, and you'r involvement mattered. And you had shitload of content, and never ran out of stuff to do. The immersion, and charisma of the NPC's story and World and the bonding factor of the game are really what made me play a game like EQ or WOW vanilla for several years, and what made me play Terra, GW2, or NW for 2 weeks each ...
In wow vanilla, we had no PVP battlegrounds, or arena's. Well i can assure you we pvp'd all day in several open world zones none the less and it was freaken awsome. In EQ, combat was dull, and boring, yet people are still playin that game more than a decade after its release.
I feel that all the ''new'' mechanics, and improvements and innovation and revolutions just spoil gamers and take away the fun out of an MMO. Give players a world that they can care about and get involved in, and let them create their own way of having fun. I had fun running past all the karana plains in EQ just for the fun of it. Or trying to find my way around mistmoor castle, or doing corps runs in kitikor forest by night coz i crossed it at dawn. We used to have fun just doing silly stuff. And i see that in this Beta, guilds running naked in zones 10 lvls above them, people grouping to take awsome screenshots at weird locations and groups forming for guildleves and stuff and it's pretty cool. In the 3 last mmo's i played, i never felt the need to group or be part of a guild or anything since they were basicly solo RPG's with a friendlist. And FFXIV isn't, so its pretty much a win as far as i'm concerned.
In FF:XIV they definitly aced the Immersion factor, the world, the grouping dynamic, you need others, you will do guildleves to level faster and have more challenge, the story force you into dungeons and group play, grouping open up so much and while you can solo, you just hinder yourself doing so. The world is beautiful, interesting and the story behind it is engaging and awsome.
I don't have that sickness where i need to bash buttons as fast as possible to enjoy playing a game, an mmo isn't a fighting game such as street fighters or what not, so i'm pretty much satisfied with the combat system and i can aknowledge that it's maybe not to the liking of everbody. But combat itself, isn't what makes an mmo successfull, it is just one mechanic among others, and i spent ages spaming the same spell rotation in EQ and i never got bored 1 bit, and i think it will be the same with FF:XIV ARR.
Well said Anfere
If you have so much experience should you not then have the most to offer in the way of suggestions?
The game is still in beta, and unlike most games, they actually are changing quite a lot of it based off user suggestion. I merely was trying to point out that perhaps if you didn't like it you could explain what you would do to improve it.
I myself started playing MMOs with Ultima Online in 1997, I myself really enjoy the combat, and the only thing I might change would be a slightly shorter GCD. (Global Cool Down)
Thanks for reading.
The problem I see with all this back and forth is that the arguments against the system are being made in a completely 2-dimensional way. It's all based on "how many skills do you get at the lower levels and over time". And it seems that every other assumption about the system (which is what much of the remarks in this thread have been) has been poorly informed. People are casting judgment and opining on a system they demonstrably know or understand very little about. So, the result is a lot of conjecture and plain wrong information being tossed about.
First of all, every single MMO out there, starts off with the basics. None of them throw you right into the deep end, to fend with yourself against all those who've played a lot longer. They all start you off with a few basic skills and then open up to more as you progress and improve. So the complaint that XIV's combat is very basic at the beginning, as though it's some kind of serious mark against it, is just ridiculous. It's entirely disingenuous. You could say the same for any other MMO that has come out, or will come out.
Yoshi-P has stated as much, very recently in explanations which were copied and pasted here on these forums. They're a long read, so likely many probably didn't even bother. Regardless, he's stated that his ideas for the combat system are:
1. To remember that, while experienced MMO players can jump into a new MMO, need very little training and know what to do off the bat, new players to MMOs are not so familiar. So, those first 15 levels in XIV being simpler and less involved is a deliberate decision to make the game approachable and not overwhelming for people new to MMOs in general. The first 15 levels, he also states, are intended to be soloable, so new players can learn the basics. And make no mistake, there's a few tough fights in there.
At level 15 is when the dungeon content begins and you have to start grouping up and coordinating with other players. But even at that, it's not cranked up to 10. It does certainly become more involved, though.
2. He's stated that the fundamentals of the combat system are "simpler", however, the utilization of those skills - comboing with other players in a group, choosing the best combo for a given enemy or situation, etc.. all those things become more important over time, and increase as you gain more skills.
With Limit Breaks, for example, the entire group fills up that Limit Break bar.. however, how quickly the bar fills up depends on how effectively players are performing. If you cancel a powerful move by an enemy and time it well, you're rewarded by a nice boost to the Limit Break gauge, for example. Figuring out the most effective tactics to use, the most effective combos and such with different creatures takes time, experience, coordination and practice. He's explained this publicly.
There's also a bit of coordination taking place in the execution of Limit Breaks. I'm not sure how much is covered under NDA about those, so I won't say too much. Suffice to say, there's a layer of detail added to fights through that system.
3. Positioning is an important factor. Being in the position to make the most of an attack is a worthwhile effort.
4. Enemies will have body parts that can be broken or crippled in some way, making a fight more manageable, or even possible in the first place.
5. Regarding the "limited number of skills per class". Remember that through XIV's Armory system,you can mix and match skills from other classes you've leveled up to a given skill's required level. This gives a player a remarkable amount of flexibility in how they setup and play their character. Not only in solo situations, but groups as well. Even when you switch to a Job, which is a specialized version of a Class, there's a bit of flexibility there.
The basics of the game - the process of selecting targets and using skills - is very basic, because there's no need for it not to be. Why add needless complexity to something that doesn't require it? So some people can feel better about "playing a game with a more complex combat system"?
The complexity of the system comes into play in all the ways those skills can be used and combined and coordinated across the game. Not in how many skills are on your hotbar, or whether it's Tab-Targeting or Action-Based. I played TERA up to about level 58, as a Warrior. Despite being action combat, the combat system itself was never very complicated. I did'n't even use that wide a variety of skills overall. What mattered the most was when and how I used those skills against a given enemy. It's the same thing with XIV.
The point is, there's a lot of criticism being leveled at XIV's combat system by people who have very selective memory when it comes to how MMOs start off new players/characters; and are throwing out opinions about something they demonstrably have either not played far enough, or bothered to look into enough to do so.
I like the sound of the group play dynamics, but as someone who likes to solo play fairly often (sometimes I really don't have the time, nor the desire to group) I'm hoping for similar complexity in the solo game. I don't really know anything about the limit break system yet -- will it be available to solo players as well, or is it strictly a group thing?
??? Ignore other games to prove your point. Look at other games. You convinently forgot forgot TSW, Darkfalls, Rift and of course Final Fantasy. Out of those you mentioned I wouldn't call them "action" anymore than final fantasy 12 was an action based system.
I like a game that isn't afraid to have an identiy. I'm all for someone telling me that if i want to solo there are 12 other final fantasies to choose from
People saying the combat doesn't involve tactics, clearly haven't gotten to the harder missions or dungeons. Some of the quests I've had to repeat 5+6 times before I figure out what to do. For one quest I needed to use antidote to not die from poison, and as Thaumaturge I could only use sleep 3 times on the black mages minion before the minion adapted and it became completely useless on him. That's when I had to hope using thunder for damage over time and then blizzard for a heavy effect on the minion would work well enough so I could run and use skills while it ran after me until the NPC showed up to help me when enough of it's health was gone. It was no easy fight that's for sure and I was swearing quite a bit.
So yeah, some of the fights are not easy at all and require quite a bit of tactical thinking so people saying the opposite have no clue what they're talking about.
Smile
Just because companies go towards something new doesn't mean it's "better". Take all those games you have mentioned there are crowds that love em and some that hate em. I was a big fan of Neverwinter but frankly the combat is kind of sucky and so is the game imo.
I mean it's great if you like the arcade style crap like from the 80s but not everyone does. I personally like the old traditional non twitch combat. The combat you seem to enjoy isn't a second coming, it's just a newish flavor.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Also, I still have not been able to beat this. Like, I've had to give up on it after 2 & a half hours due to complete frustration.
Smile
One way I've seen a lot of people beat it is by leveling conjurer up till you get cure (level 2) and it makes the fight extremely easy.
Edit: Also, if you want to make it so easy you can sit back and play Ninja Gaiden at the same time, you could level Conjurer to 8 and get protect as well. It still pays to bring along a few antidotes.
As if there aren't plenty of other perfectly legitimate reasons to play an mmorpg over a single player, aside from the grouping aspect...
And if you hadn't noticed, the game is already solo friendly, so that strawman is pointless here. Try again.
I was able to beat it first time on my marauder
Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
PS3
Why have you put "Playing the FFXIV ARR demo." under your Avatar? it isnt a Demo, though granted it gives you an insight. goes to show how ill informed you are.
Yes they reduced the number but at the same time made the skills you have now much more interactive and you can instantly tell a good THM from a bad THM. Just read the skills and how they combo off each other for free high damage spells and effects plus keeping your refresh with Umbral Ice going while nuking like a maniac.
If you have not played it you don't realize that this is a very complex system and its not mashing 1-2-3. If you do not react off your combo triggers you wasting mana, damage and most likely get killed. I would share a video but right now it's not allowed.
I did some testing with THM and BLM on level 50 elementals and boy is there a difference between people spamming 1-2-3 and people paying attention to their spells and combos.
At lower levels there are not as many combos and it is a little boring, i admit that.
I've played a Thaumaturge to 22. It is so simplistic as to be extremely boring. Drop a thunder dot, spam the fire skill, switch the buff to ice when mana is low and spam blizzard, switch the buff back to fire when your mana is full and spam fire again. Keep up dot if big enemy. Add on to that that I get like 2.5 seconds in between casts and it's one of the simplest experiences I've had dpsing in an MMORPG.
Forgot about TSW. I originally thought it had action combat, but unfortunately it's target and hotkey based. Completely ruined the game's enjoyment for me. The story wasn't going to carry it.
Darkfall I've never played and have no interest in, so I can't comment.
Rift is NOT new and a complete WoWclone in every aspect.
Final Fantasy what? Look at the new one, 15, it's full on action combat.
And to argue a point, 12 kind of was action based, though it still used the age old ATB system in the action environment, which made it feel like auto attack. But no, that's a single player game and far more action than the traditional single player FF games that came before it.
It's better because it's more fun, it's more involving, it's more reaction, and to a degree, twitch based.
The sole reason I enjoyed Neverwinter was because of the combat. Originally I thought it was going to be trash because it was designed to root you in place when you attacked, but I had fun with it for some reason. The rest of the game was absolute trash though and an insult to D&D; though I guess 4E is an insult to D&D as well..
Arcade style crap from the 80s? What?
What MMORPGs were there that had non auto-attack based combat? Very, very few, and if they did they sacrificed other elements to do so because the technology wasn't there yet.
The action based systems of today are so much better and much more prevalent because the technology has improved to the point where it can be supported on a massive scale. This is the golden era of MMORPGs; things can be done that couldn't be done before (or done far, far better).
FFXIV after sweeping design changes is an exception to this rule. They really did make a wrong decision by moving back to the auto-attack system, though honestly, the amount of lag due to the server hosting location (no regional servers in this day and age is ludicrous) pretty much ruined any hope the game had of supporting an action combat system.. outside of Japan at any rate.
You sure you're not playing TERA and not FFXIV:ARR?
and that can't be tactical??? Explain..... because it sure can......
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
+1
becouse smashing skills that went from cooldown is soo tactical
The loading screens are not that bad and the Zones are quite large also I wouldn't say porno but I was a bit shocked when I noticed Yda had a cameltoe lol damn her shorts are tiny.
Lol I died twice before I found out about the antipoison also I just ran around the tree in circles while attacking though i was an archer so I could attack on the run which seeing as almost all of the minion's attacks were melee kept me safe now however after you kill the minion the black mage hits like crazy he got me down to 20hp quite quickly even with a Hi-Potion you just have to survive until Yda and the Lalafel guy show up and they will heal you.
What was far more annoying was the level 15 archer quest.... died quite a few times and I had the greatest finish ever I killed the boss as I was about to die. I fired my last arrow at 4Hp as an enemy's mage attack was coming at me I thought I was dead then I saw "Instance Complete", or whatever it says, and I literally yelled out "Hell Yeah!!!" lmao.
What you dont get is that people dislike the combat mechanic, and that wont change no matter what level you are. For some (me included) tab fighting is extremely boring, for others its heaven. I for one agree with the lack of inovation but thats me. Press 1, wait, press 2, wait, press 3, wait. Oh but we can move around and such..... well doesnt matter much now does it, at least for a melee class, since mob will hit you no matter where you are if your in his range, so might as well stand still pressing 1-5 while i watch a movie on the side.
It's not just tab targeting...
1. you have to position yourself and move around during big fights. Bosses have certain aoe moves that land in a variety of areas and you have to actively run and position yourself pretty much all the time for all major boss fights.
2. it isn't just 1-2-3. you get skills that buff you, and debuff the enemy. you learn skills from other classes. it's more about determining the best way to do things with your combos. "okay this is a boss, so i have time to apply the crit hit bonus attack, then i should use my attack that boosts my damage. but i have to be careful if i use this ability as it leaves me vulnerable for 5 seconds after and unable to use ws's. wait i'm running low on hp, i have to use this ability before i pop the others so i can get more hp back for the damage i'm going to do. let me first stun the enemy so i don't get hit while i charge it up"
- this is going through my mind 90% of the time in boss fights
3. OP according to his post date, posted 6 minutes after beta opened. -_-
4. For people that want it to have a more action feel: you get skill speed and spell speed + to lower the global cooldowns.
- For people that want it to stay more strategic: the gcd's will get lower as you get geared up, but you still have to balance all of this with your TP consumption.
("But blaze... I ALWAYS have full tp! Even in boss fights!... Well little timmy, you're doing it wrong."
5. It's not for everyone. If it's not what you like; there's no need to rush to a website and jump all over a game that people enjoy. If it is what you like; there's no need to engage and argue with people who obviously have a different opinion than you. Part of the reason no "WoW Killer" has come out is due to the divisions within the mmorpg community. Getting pissed off at someone for not liking the same thing as you... imagine all the fights that would cause on a playground:
"YOU NO LIEK CHOCOLATE ICE CREAM!?" "STRAWBERRY!"
"I PLAY IN SANDBOXES" "I LIKE THE SWINGS AND SLIDES"