Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
Yeah no. PvE isn't the love-fest you are describing. High end content is competitive. Guilds only want the best healers and best DPS. If your class' DPS isn't as good as another class, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your healer class cant heal through spike damage from a certain boss, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your tank class takes too much damage compared to another tank, guess what? You don't have a spot.
Don't pretend that balancing complaints are just from PvP players. They are from everyone. The only way you would get away from those complaints is if you had 3 classes. Tank, heal and DPS. With no overlapping of roles.
If there is no factions or other factors in place to limit it? Probably not.
Free for all pvp games only further emphasize the aspect of griefing . No, I don't roleplay in games but for me I find games where its just having mindless killing being so childish and immature. The sad thing is they don't need to be, players just make it that way.
Have guilds be able to go guild vs guild open war in the world, or factions facing off on each other, or have a in depth crime system in place to punish those and provide incentive against just griefing others, but having just pure open world pvp? No thanks. As fun as it is to 'gank the gankers' so to speak, the grief and annoyance it could bring is far to much to want to give it a chance.
In Short: Unless the player base suddenly vastly increases their Maturity and isn't about griefing others without any good reasoning (or systems in place to punish those who do), the likelihood is slim to none.
What is always interesting in these types of threads is how whereas the general feeling amongst PvE players is that of being generally overwhelmingly for separate PvE and PvP servers, PvP players generally argue against separate servers. So whereas PvE players express a mentality of compromise in that we can have our server and you can have yours, PvP players express one of no you will not have your own server, you will be forced unto our server and fulfill the role of being the involuntary victim of our psychopathic behavior thereby increasing our fun factor. The fact that it is not fun for you is highly irrelevant.
Another reason is, of course, that without the constant pool feed of PvE centric players most MMORPGs that have PvP elements eventually flutter and die. In other words, whereas PvE players can do just fine without PvP players, PvP players know they can not survive without PvE players, and they know it.
This read is always quite entertaining.
Carry on.
Oh please, it should be obvious. Not wanting pve servers could not have anything to do with wanting a game that is designed AROUND pvp itself - right? Kinda like most "pvp only server" games are designed....
Name ONE "pvp only server" MMORPG game ...
Exactly.
Everything else in your post is irrelevant as a result.
Lineage 2, one of, if not the most pvp centered mmos designed. I can name 20 emulated L2 private servers off the top of my head that have thousands++ of players logged on at this very moment - on each server. The large majority of L2 players choose private servers because they prefer earlier versions of the game when it was even more pvp centric than it is now. When accounting private servers, world-wide, L2 is one of the most played mmorpgs out there. - easily. Oh, and its like 10 years old - going strong.
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
That is completely false. Seems like a lot of PvE players like you just want to blame PvP players for everything, including when PvE players whine about balance. There are complaints from PvE players over many things, be it leveling taking to long, or bosses being to hard or too easy, or their class not being viable, or they want more solo content or more group content, or they are not engaged enough, the list goes on. All of this is completely independent from PvP.
A successful game cannot exist with only one element. People want complexity and as time goes on they want more of it. PvE only MMOs will be niche, PvP only MMOs will be niche.
First of all, lets get one thing straight. I am not only a PvE player. I play both and I am quite good at both play styles. I simply enjoy playing both styles separately because they are ... wait for it ... different games! And because I like them both, I understand the strength in both play styles and don't try to push either one on one another. When I want to PvP I play FPS games. FPS games are inherently all about PvP.
Regarding the PvE complaint factor, you do realize that the leveling curbs in MMORPGs where monumental before the PvP crowd brought the element of "grind" into consideration. This is because for PvPers, end game is when the game begins. For the most part, PvPers do not care about lore or the journey toward a destination. Their focus is at end game. If not for the PvP element brought into games, there would be no rush to end game making the grind irrelevant. Because for the fast amount of PvEers the journey IS the game. The solo versus group content is a non-argument and you know it. They can both easily co-exist in an MMORPG and it has been accomplished successfully without difficulty in many MMORPGs
Refute it if you wish, but to argue against the obvious is a losing battle.
What is always interesting in these types of threads is how whereas the general feeling amongst PvE players is that of being generally overwhelmingly for separate PvE and PvP servers, PvP players generally argue against separate servers. So whereas PvE players express a mentality of compromise in that we can have our server and you can have yours, PvP players express one of no you will not have your own server, you will be forced unto our server and fulfill the role of being the involuntary victim of our psychopathic behavior thereby increasing our fun factor. The fact that it is not fun for you is highly irrelevant.
Another reason is, of course, that without the constant pool feed of PvE centric players most MMORPGs that have PvP elements eventually flutter and die. In other words, whereas PvE players can do just fine without PvP players, PvP players know they can not survive without PvE players, and they know it.
This read is always quite entertaining.
Carry on.
Oh please, it should be obvious. Not wanting pve servers could not have anything to do with wanting a game that is designed AROUND pvp itself - right? Kinda like most "pvp only server" games are designed....
Name ONE "pvp only server" MMORPG game ...
Exactly.
Everything else in your post is irrelevant as a result.
Lineage 2, one of, if not the most pvp centered mmos designed. I can name 20 emulated L2 private servers off the top of my head that have thousands++ of players logged on at this very moment - on each server. The large majority of L2 players choose private servers because they prefer earlier versions of the game when it was even more pvp centric than it is now. When accounting private servers, world-wide, L2 is one of the most played mmorpgs out there. - easily. Oh, and its like 10 years old - going strong.
Logic = Irrelevant. Thats a new one for me.
Wushu - Not full loot
EVE - Full loot
that's 3.
And Darkfall obviously.
Whole ArchAge endgame will be based around PvP battles and building, seiging, etc.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others... Currently Playing: GW2
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
That is completely false. Seems like a lot of PvE players like you just want to blame PvP players for everything, including when PvE players whine about balance. There are complaints from PvE players over many things, be it leveling taking to long, or bosses being to hard or too easy, or their class not being viable, or they want more solo content or more group content, or they are not engaged enough, the list goes on. All of this is completely independent from PvP.
A successful MMO cannot exist with only one element. People want complexity and as time goes on they want more of it. PvE only MMOs will be niche, PvP only MMOs will be niche.
I have to agree and disagree... more so I feel its a middle line as both sides hurt the other. Really the complaints brought up can be brought by both sides. I will admit I am leaning on PvE being more 'right' so to speak but then again i feel its an issue of how pvpers typically view the game.
PvE focus gives usually a more unique and interesting class system, making the gameplay itself more unique for the classes. It really enhances the feeling of cooperative play giving everyone a roll to play that can be quite different from one another.
PvP focus gives classes a more simple design system, not promoting unique play though giving more 'balance'. Classes will usually have a smaller gap of difference between one another and are given more tools typically then PvE in which their class can use. More disabling 'tactics' can be added in to create a fight not just about doing damage but also about finding more ways to limit or restrict tjhe enemy.
So PvP DOES negative impact PvE in that it will often restrict creativity with classes, while PvE negative impacts PvP by making classes imbalanced and potentially making some classes better then others in certain situations in pvp that might be far more prevelant then PvE. I always feel both mechanics need to be balanced in a way and kept somewhat 'seperate' from one another though its very difficult to do. The best way I feel is to focus pvp balance on team play which... sadly... a lot of pvpers don't seem to like the idea and want to be a 'solo monster', thus the huge number of ganking classes people typically play in MMos taking advantage of its strength to win with minimal effort.
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
Yeah no. PvE isn't the love-fest you are describing. High end content is competitive. Guilds only want the best healers and best DPS. If your class' DPS isn't as good as another class, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your healer class cant heal through spike damage from a certain boss, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your tank class takes too much damage compared to another tank, guess what? You don't have a spot.
Don't pretend that balancing complaints are just from PvP players. They are from everyone. The only way you would get away from those complaints is if you had 3 classes. Tank, heal and DPS. With no overlapping of roles.
Wrong. The overlapping roles are the hybrid classes of the pure trilogy classes. And it is understood that the other classes are hybrids, so no ... there are generally no complaints, as you describe.
First of all, lets get one thing straight. I am not only a PvE player. I play both and I am quite good at both play styles. I simply enjoy playing both styles separately because they are ... wait for it ... different games! And because I like them both, I understand the strength in both play styles and don't try to push either one on one another. When I want to PvP I play FPS games. FPS games are inherently all about PvP.
Regarding the PvE complaint factor, you do realize that the leveling curbs in MMORPGs where monumental before the PvP crowd brought the element of "grind" into consideration. This is because for PvPers, end game is when the game begins. For the most part, PvPers do not care about lore or the journey toward a destination. Their focus is at end game. If not for the PvP element brought into games, there would be no rush to end game making the grind irrelevant. Because for the fast amount of PvEers the journey IS the game. The solo versus group content is a non-argument and you know it. They can both easily co-exist in an MMORPG and it has been accomplished successfully without difficulty in many MMORPGs
Refute it if you wish, but to argue against the obvious is a losing battle.
Same I love both PvE and PvP. And when I want to PvE I go play single player RPGs.
No one is going to buy that PvP players brought "grind" into consideration. You are making a lot of assumptions which clearly are false even based on common sense. I can say the same for PvE players for them it is the destination not the journey because the real PvE content is at end game.
This is no "winning" or "losing" here. Unless you can bring one fact into your argument. All I see are opinions.
PvE players complain just as much if not more than PvP players.
First of all, lets get one thing straight. I am not only a PvE player. I play both and I am quite good at both play styles. I simply enjoy playing both styles separately because they are ... wait for it ... different games! And because I like them both, I understand the strength in both play styles and don't try to push either one on one another. When I want to PvP I play FPS games. FPS games are inherently all about PvP.
Regarding the PvE complaint factor, you do realize that the leveling curbs in MMORPGs where monumental before the PvP crowd brought the element of "grind" into consideration. This is because for PvPers, end game is when the game begins. For the most part, PvPers do not care about lore or the journey toward a destination. Their focus is at end game. If not for the PvP element brought into games, there would be no rush to end game making the grind irrelevant. Because for the fast amount of PvEers the journey IS the game. The solo versus group content is a non-argument and you know it. They can both easily co-exist in an MMORPG and it has been accomplished successfully without difficulty in many MMORPGs
Refute it if you wish, but to argue against the obvious is a losing battle.
Same I love both PvE and PvP. And when I want to PvE I go play single player RPGs.
No one is going to buy that PvP players brought "grind" into consideration. You are making a lot of assumptions which clearly are false even based on common sense. I can say the same for PvE players for them it is the destination not the journey because the real PvE content is at end game.
This is no "winning" or "losing" here. Unless you can bring one fact into your argument. All I see are opinions.
PvE players complain just as much if not more than PvP players.
I disagree.
One can bring semantics into an argument and make an argument where there is none. Politicians have been doing it forever and have been quite successfully at misleading billions into chaos. Their ability to do so, however, does not make their argument any more valid.
One can bring semantics into an argument and make an argument where there is none. Politicians have been doing it forever and have been quite successfully at misleading billions into chaos. Their ability to do so, however, does not make their argument any more valid.
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
Yeah no. PvE isn't the love-fest you are describing. High end content is competitive. Guilds only want the best healers and best DPS. If your class' DPS isn't as good as another class, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your healer class cant heal through spike damage from a certain boss, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your tank class takes too much damage compared to another tank, guess what? You don't have a spot.
Don't pretend that balancing complaints are just from PvP players. They are from everyone. The only way you would get away from those complaints is if you had 3 classes. Tank, heal and DPS. With no overlapping of roles.
Wrong. The overlapping roles are the hybrid classes of the pure trilogy classes. And it is understood that the other classes are hybrids, so no ... there are generally no complaints, as you describe.
Lol both sides compain.... Obviously pvpers more so. Losing to a person hurts the ego more than it does losing to ai. Pvpers generally produce more butt-hurtness and are a tad more competitive. No need to have experienced it first hand to know how things would naturaly play out. To say pve players dont complain and nerfs/buffs implemented as result is rediculous.
I say "no need to have expereinced it first-hand" because you obviously have not played many pve mmos - if any. Otherwise you would have realized how ignorant your claims were before posting....
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
That is completely false. Seems like a lot of PvE players like you just want to blame PvP players for everything, including when PvE players whine about balance. There are complaints from PvE players over many things, be it leveling taking to long, or bosses being to hard or too easy, or their class not being viable, or they want more solo content or more group content, or they are not engaged enough, the list goes on. All of this is completely independent from PvP.
A successful MMO cannot exist with only one element. People want complexity and as time goes on they want more of it. PvE only MMOs will be niche, PvP only MMOs will be niche.
I have to agree and disagree... more so I feel its a middle line as both sides hurt the other. Really the complaints brought up can be brought by both sides. I will admit I am leaning on PvE being more 'right' so to speak but then again i feel its an issue of how pvpers typically view the game.
PvE focus gives usually a more unique and interesting class system, making the gameplay itself more unique for the classes. It really enhances the feeling of cooperative play giving everyone a roll to play that can be quite different from one another.
PvP focus gives classes a more simple design system, not promoting unique play though giving more 'balance'. Classes will usually have a smaller gap of difference between one another and are given more tools typically then PvE in which their class can use. More disabling 'tactics' can be added in to create a fight not just about doing damage but also about finding more ways to limit or restrict tjhe enemy.
So PvP DOES negative impact PvE in that it will often restrict creativity with classes, while PvE negative impacts PvP by making classes imbalanced and potentially making some classes better then others in certain situations in pvp that might be far more prevelant then PvE. I always feel both mechanics need to be balanced in a way and kept somewhat 'seperate' from one another though its very difficult to do. The best way I feel is to focus pvp balance on team play which... sadly... a lot of pvpers don't seem to like the idea and want to be a 'solo monster', thus the huge number of ganking classes people typically play in MMos taking advantage of its strength to win with minimal effort.
This only becomes an issue when you try to incorporate both play styles in game. PvE would obviously not negatively impact PvP if PvP where not a factor in the game. So we have come a full circle. Again, PvE players are generally happy with their own exclusively PvE server and requesting separate servers, one PvE and one PvP. PvPers, howver, do not want to have separate servers and as a matter of fact, are arguing vehemently against it.
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
Yeah no. PvE isn't the love-fest you are describing. High end content is competitive. Guilds only want the best healers and best DPS. If your class' DPS isn't as good as another class, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your healer class cant heal through spike damage from a certain boss, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your tank class takes too much damage compared to another tank, guess what? You don't have a spot.
Don't pretend that balancing complaints are just from PvP players. They are from everyone. The only way you would get away from those complaints is if you had 3 classes. Tank, heal and DPS. With no overlapping of roles.
Wrong. The overlapping roles are the hybrid classes of the pure trilogy classes. And it is understood that the other classes are hybrids, so no ... there are generally no complaints, as you describe.
Lol both sides compain.... Obviously pvpers more so. Losing to a person hurts the ego more than it does losing to ai. Pvpers generally produce more butt-hurtness and are a tad more competitive. No need to have experienced it first hand to know how things would naturaly play out. To say pve players dont complain and nerfs/buffs implemented as result is rediculous.
You explained it yourself. The reason PvPers complain is because they are competing with each other so that complaints of OPness and nerfs are of course expected. PvEers form a cooperative to compete against NPCs. The game usually revolves around the trilogy that is a tank, healer, and pure DPS classes that are usually composed of range and melee. It is universally understood that the higher DPS class is a ranged mage or wizard who instill more damage because they are glass cannons and melee classes who do not have as much DPs but have more survivability, and then you might have a ranger who has a pet in is usually a more solor friendly class.
Your claims that PvE communities whine about class balance rings hollow to anyone who has even the vaguest familiarity with MMORPGs.
PvE players that never complain about class balance are super casuals. Super casual PvP players don't complain about balance either. Having been part of a competitive PvE guild at one time I know that people complain about their class and balance all the time. Be in healing, tanks or DPS.
I still remember how many tanking complains there were in WoW from non-Warrior tanks. It was a major QQ till Blizzard gave in and balance the tanks, and it had zero to do with PvP.
PvPers, howver, do not want to have separate servers and as a matter of fact, are arguing vehemently against it.
That is a complete blanket statement, which again is an opinion. Is there a poll somewhere that states that PvPs don't want there to be PvE servers?
Then let's have separate servers.
Problem solved.
/close thread
We don't know what the game is about anyway, so it is all speculation. For all we know it could be one server and follow the ESO/DAoC model with soft factions. Or it could be like Eve with "one" server with different rule sets per area. We are still thinking in old terms. We will know in August hopefully.
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
Yeah no. PvE isn't the love-fest you are describing. High end content is competitive. Guilds only want the best healers and best DPS. If your class' DPS isn't as good as another class, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your healer class cant heal through spike damage from a certain boss, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your tank class takes too much damage compared to another tank, guess what? You don't have a spot.
Don't pretend that balancing complaints are just from PvP players. They are from everyone. The only way you would get away from those complaints is if you had 3 classes. Tank, heal and DPS. With no overlapping of roles.
Wrong. The overlapping roles are the hybrid classes of the pure trilogy classes. And it is understood that the other classes are hybrids, so no ... there are generally no complaints, as you describe.
Lol both sides compain.... Obviously pvpers more so. Losing to a person hurts the ego more than it does losing to ai. Pvpers generally produce more butt-hurtness and are a tad more competitive. No need to have experienced it first hand to know how things would naturaly play out. To say pve players dont complain and nerfs/buffs implemented as result is rediculous.
You explained it yourself. The reason PvPers complain is because they are competing with each other so that complaints of OPness and nerfs are of course expected. PvEers form a cooperative to compete against NPCs. The game usually revolves around the trilogy that is a tank, healer, and pure DPS classes that are usually composed of range and melee. It is universally understood that the higher DPS class is a ranged mage or wizard who instill more damage because they are glass cannons and melee classes who do not have as much DPs but have more survivability, and then you might have a ranger who has a pet in is usually a more solor friendly class.
Your claims that PvE communities whine about class balance rings hollow to anyone who has even the vaguest familiarity with MMORPGs.
I know lots of pve roleplayers on several mmo forums that complain about class balance all the time - just saying??
PvE players that never complain about class balance are super casuals. Super casual PvP players don't complain about balance either. Having been part of a competitive PvE guild at one time I know that people complain about their class and balance all the time. Be in healing, tanks or DPS.
I still remember how many tanking complains there were in WoW from non-Warrior tanks. It was a major QQ till Blizzard gave in and balance the tanks, and it had zero to do with PvP.
WoW?
/quickly brings out my cross and flashes it against the skies valiantly as I fall to my knees bracing myself against the ground steadily ...
Originally posted by Onomas So if all of you people are being ganked as 99.9% of you claim, who is doing the ganking? Many of you have no idea what gank, ganked, and ganking actually means from many posts I have read here.I am a hardcore crafter, usualy always got my head in the crafting and selling aspect of many mmorpg's. But as a crafter I need a break and pvp is that break, along with exploration and social aspects. But pvp is a great get away from the norm. And in the 10+ years I have been playing mmorpg's I rarely get ganked. Im observant and pay attention to my surroundings, and often roll with a group.Its funny how you guys are always ganked and farmed, kinda tells me you are doing something wrong. PVP can be fun if there is meaning, and you can not get meaningful pvp and territory control in a damn instance or arena.Yes even as a crafter I play heavy pvp games, because its fun. To see if I can survive and out-wit another player and get away. The challenge is fighting against other humans not the AI. I play mmorpg's for the challenge and to pit my wisdom and skill versus another great player.
OK it's fun for you...Good!...And I swear I mean that sincerely...We have a saying in our Guild..."It's your game!" Meaning play it the way you want to play it...Have fun the way YOU like to have fun...And we have plenty of folks who LOVE PvP...
But PvP is not fun for everybody...And the typical "you're not doing it right" is a perfect example of what I'll never understand about some of you who love PvP so much...Why can't you simply understand some people don't like it, don't want to do it, and have no interest in it? It's not about what PvE players can do to change their PvP experience, because if they prefer a PvE ruleset, and they don't want to PvP, it's their game...Why is it I feel like some of you want to cram PvP down the throats of anyone who dare say they just would rather not? I really don't get it...Every game is going to have some PvP...Every game is going to have PvP servers...Why insist on more from folks who don't want any in the the name of what is meaningful and what is not?...If you don't want to PvP it matters not if it's meaningful or completely meaningless...If you don't want to do something, or if some aspect like their definition of getting ganked makes it a deal-breaker for them...So be it...What do you care?
All I'm saying is you can't convert someone who does not want to be converted...Nor should you even want to...To each his own...It's cool that you like PvP, and it's totally cool that you express that...But as soon as you cross over into the "kinda tells me your doing something wrong" area...Well...It's just the same old, same old...I've been MMO-ing for well over a decade now and these arguments never change...It's the exact same thing it's always been...And the simplest solution has always been different rulesets and different servers...Choice...To each his own...
That goes both ways! If you don't like pvp, good for you. Really that's cool. But why should the game be designed just for you and obmit things many others like. Crafting, exploration, pvp, grouping, and tons more are always dumbed down or removed for you pve crowd. Just because you don't like it? Kind of hypocritical.
Also as I said I'm a crafter at heart, but you pve only people ruin mmorpgs because you want a console RPG game and not a true mmorpg.
PvE players that never complain about class balance are super casuals. Super casual PvP players don't complain about balance either. Having been part of a competitive PvE guild at one time I know that people complain about their class and balance all the time. Be in healing, tanks or DPS.
I still remember how many tanking complains there were in WoW from non-Warrior tanks. It was a major QQ till Blizzard gave in and balance the tanks, and it had zero to do with PvP.
WoW?
/quickly brings out my cross and flashes it against the skies valiantly as I fall to my knees bracing myself against the ground steadily ...
It was more than just WoW PvE players sadly, there were multiple top-tier PvE only balance issues in Everquest... so yeah, everyone complains.
PvE players that never complain about class balance are super casuals. Super casual PvP players don't complain about balance either. Having been part of a competitive PvE guild at one time I know that people complain about their class and balance all the time. Be in healing, tanks or DPS.
I still remember how many tanking complains there were in WoW from non-Warrior tanks. It was a major QQ till Blizzard gave in and balance the tanks, and it had zero to do with PvP.
WoW?
/quickly brings out my cross and flashes it against the skies valiantly as I fall to my knees bracing myself against the ground steadily ...
Yet the reason for the PvE complaints are as a result of changes made to classes in an effort to balance classes and appease the PvP crowd. There would, otherwise, be no reason for PvEers to complain about class functionality because the basis for PvE play is a cooperative amongst players to combat PvE objectives. There is no doubt that if the PvP component were eliminated from the picture, many of the issues plaguing MMORPG's would cease to exist. The futile attempt to incorporate both game styles is what is ailing the MMORPG genre at this time. And it is one that is driven purely by greed.
Yeah no. PvE isn't the love-fest you are describing. High end content is competitive. Guilds only want the best healers and best DPS. If your class' DPS isn't as good as another class, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your healer class cant heal through spike damage from a certain boss, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your tank class takes too much damage compared to another tank, guess what? You don't have a spot.
Don't pretend that balancing complaints are just from PvP players. They are from everyone. The only way you would get away from those complaints is if you had 3 classes. Tank, heal and DPS. With no overlapping of roles.
Wrong. The overlapping roles are the hybrid classes of the pure trilogy classes. And it is understood that the other classes are hybrids, so no ... there are generally no complaints, as you describe.
Lol both sides compain.... Obviously pvpers more so. Losing to a person hurts the ego more than it does losing to ai. Pvpers generally produce more butt-hurtness and are a tad more competitive. No need to have experienced it first hand to know how things would naturaly play out. To say pve players dont complain and nerfs/buffs implemented as result is rediculous.
You explained it yourself. The reason PvPers complain is because they are competing with each other so that complaints of OPness and nerfs are of course expected. PvEers form a cooperative to compete against NPCs. The game usually revolves around the trilogy that is a tank, healer, and pure DPS classes that are usually composed of range and melee. It is universally understood that the higher DPS class is a ranged mage or wizard who instill more damage because they are glass cannons and melee classes who do not have as much DPs but have more survivability, and then you might have a ranger who has a pet in is usually a more solor friendly class.
Your claims that PvE communities whine about class balance rings hollow to anyone who has even the vaguest familiarity with MMORPGs.
I know lots of pve roleplayers on several mmo forums that complain about class balance all the time - just saying??
I understand what youre saying ... but it is usually not regarding nerfing and OPness. it is usually about preference in skills, or skill variety, or perhaps an animation glitch that delays skill activation, or particle clarity. Odd things of that sort. I would call those more along the lines of suggestions, requests, and bugs and not necessarily whines about class balance. Again, we can debate semantics till kingdom come but it was not the point I was trying to make.
PvE players that never complain about class balance are super casuals. Super casual PvP players don't complain about balance either. Having been part of a competitive PvE guild at one time I know that people complain about their class and balance all the time. Be in healing, tanks or DPS.
I still remember how many tanking complains there were in WoW from non-Warrior tanks. It was a major QQ till Blizzard gave in and balance the tanks, and it had zero to do with PvP.
WoW?
/quickly brings out my cross and flashes it against the skies valiantly as I fall to my knees bracing myself against the ground steadily ...
Yeah it is just the largest MMO ever made.
True. Which is exactly the problem inasmuch as it invited a deluge of WoW clones with anything daring to venture from its glorious image to be cast aside like a soiled rag. Not to mention the WoW culture and mentality borne from it. but I digress ...
Comments
Yeah no. PvE isn't the love-fest you are describing. High end content is competitive. Guilds only want the best healers and best DPS. If your class' DPS isn't as good as another class, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your healer class cant heal through spike damage from a certain boss, guess what? You don't have a spot.
If your tank class takes too much damage compared to another tank, guess what? You don't have a spot.
Don't pretend that balancing complaints are just from PvP players. They are from everyone. The only way you would get away from those complaints is if you had 3 classes. Tank, heal and DPS. With no overlapping of roles.
If there is no factions or other factors in place to limit it? Probably not.
Free for all pvp games only further emphasize the aspect of griefing . No, I don't roleplay in games but for me I find games where its just having mindless killing being so childish and immature. The sad thing is they don't need to be, players just make it that way.
Have guilds be able to go guild vs guild open war in the world, or factions facing off on each other, or have a in depth crime system in place to punish those and provide incentive against just griefing others, but having just pure open world pvp? No thanks. As fun as it is to 'gank the gankers' so to speak, the grief and annoyance it could bring is far to much to want to give it a chance.
In Short: Unless the player base suddenly vastly increases their Maturity and isn't about griefing others without any good reasoning (or systems in place to punish those who do), the likelihood is slim to none.
And Darkfall obviously.
First of all, lets get one thing straight. I am not only a PvE player. I play both and I am quite good at both play styles. I simply enjoy playing both styles separately because they are ... wait for it ... different games! And because I like them both, I understand the strength in both play styles and don't try to push either one on one another. When I want to PvP I play FPS games. FPS games are inherently all about PvP.
Regarding the PvE complaint factor, you do realize that the leveling curbs in MMORPGs where monumental before the PvP crowd brought the element of "grind" into consideration. This is because for PvPers, end game is when the game begins. For the most part, PvPers do not care about lore or the journey toward a destination. Their focus is at end game. If not for the PvP element brought into games, there would be no rush to end game making the grind irrelevant. Because for the fast amount of PvEers the journey IS the game. The solo versus group content is a non-argument and you know it. They can both easily co-exist in an MMORPG and it has been accomplished successfully without difficulty in many MMORPGs
Refute it if you wish, but to argue against the obvious is a losing battle.
Whole ArchAge endgame will be based around PvP battles and building, seiging, etc.
Played: EQ1 (10 Years), Guild Wars, Rift, TERA
Tried: EQ2, Vanguard, Lord of the Rings Online, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Runes of Magic and countless others...
Currently Playing: GW2
Nytlok Sylas
80 Sylvari Ranger
I have to agree and disagree... more so I feel its a middle line as both sides hurt the other. Really the complaints brought up can be brought by both sides. I will admit I am leaning on PvE being more 'right' so to speak but then again i feel its an issue of how pvpers typically view the game.
PvE focus gives usually a more unique and interesting class system, making the gameplay itself more unique for the classes. It really enhances the feeling of cooperative play giving everyone a roll to play that can be quite different from one another.
PvP focus gives classes a more simple design system, not promoting unique play though giving more 'balance'. Classes will usually have a smaller gap of difference between one another and are given more tools typically then PvE in which their class can use. More disabling 'tactics' can be added in to create a fight not just about doing damage but also about finding more ways to limit or restrict tjhe enemy.
So PvP DOES negative impact PvE in that it will often restrict creativity with classes, while PvE negative impacts PvP by making classes imbalanced and potentially making some classes better then others in certain situations in pvp that might be far more prevelant then PvE. I always feel both mechanics need to be balanced in a way and kept somewhat 'seperate' from one another though its very difficult to do. The best way I feel is to focus pvp balance on team play which... sadly... a lot of pvpers don't seem to like the idea and want to be a 'solo monster', thus the huge number of ganking classes people typically play in MMos taking advantage of its strength to win with minimal effort.
Wrong. The overlapping roles are the hybrid classes of the pure trilogy classes. And it is understood that the other classes are hybrids, so no ... there are generally no complaints, as you describe.
Same I love both PvE and PvP. And when I want to PvE I go play single player RPGs.
No one is going to buy that PvP players brought "grind" into consideration. You are making a lot of assumptions which clearly are false even based on common sense. I can say the same for PvE players for them it is the destination not the journey because the real PvE content is at end game.
This is no "winning" or "losing" here. Unless you can bring one fact into your argument. All I see are opinions.
PvE players complain just as much if not more than PvP players.
I disagree.
One can bring semantics into an argument and make an argument where there is none. Politicians have been doing it forever and have been quite successfully at misleading billions into chaos. Their ability to do so, however, does not make their argument any more valid.
I agree.
Lol both sides compain.... Obviously pvpers more so. Losing to a person hurts the ego more than it does losing to ai. Pvpers generally produce more butt-hurtness and are a tad more competitive. No need to have experienced it first hand to know how things would naturaly play out. To say pve players dont complain and nerfs/buffs implemented as result is rediculous.
I say "no need to have expereinced it first-hand" because you obviously have not played many pve mmos - if any. Otherwise you would have realized how ignorant your claims were before posting....
This only becomes an issue when you try to incorporate both play styles in game. PvE would obviously not negatively impact PvP if PvP where not a factor in the game. So we have come a full circle. Again, PvE players are generally happy with their own exclusively PvE server and requesting separate servers, one PvE and one PvP. PvPers, howver, do not want to have separate servers and as a matter of fact, are arguing vehemently against it.
Why is that?
That is a complete blanket statement, which again is an opinion. Is there a poll somewhere that states that PvPs don't want there to be PvE servers?
You explained it yourself. The reason PvPers complain is because they are competing with each other so that complaints of OPness and nerfs are of course expected. PvEers form a cooperative to compete against NPCs. The game usually revolves around the trilogy that is a tank, healer, and pure DPS classes that are usually composed of range and melee. It is universally understood that the higher DPS class is a ranged mage or wizard who instill more damage because they are glass cannons and melee classes who do not have as much DPs but have more survivability, and then you might have a ranger who has a pet in is usually a more solor friendly class.
Your claims that PvE communities whine about class balance rings hollow to anyone who has even the vaguest familiarity with MMORPGs.
Then let's have separate servers.
Problem solved.
/close thread
PvE players that never complain about class balance are super casuals. Super casual PvP players don't complain about balance either. Having been part of a competitive PvE guild at one time I know that people complain about their class and balance all the time. Be in healing, tanks or DPS.
I still remember how many tanking complains there were in WoW from non-Warrior tanks. It was a major QQ till Blizzard gave in and balance the tanks, and it had zero to do with PvP.
We don't know what the game is about anyway, so it is all speculation. For all we know it could be one server and follow the ESO/DAoC model with soft factions. Or it could be like Eve with "one" server with different rule sets per area. We are still thinking in old terms. We will know in August hopefully.
I know lots of pve roleplayers on several mmo forums that complain about class balance all the time - just saying??
WoW?
/quickly brings out my cross and flashes it against the skies valiantly as I fall to my knees bracing myself against the ground steadily ...
OK it's fun for you...Good!...And I swear I mean that sincerely...We have a saying in our Guild..."It's your game!" Meaning play it the way you want to play it...Have fun the way YOU like to have fun...And we have plenty of folks who LOVE PvP...
But PvP is not fun for everybody...And the typical "you're not doing it right" is a perfect example of what I'll never understand about some of you who love PvP so much...Why can't you simply understand some people don't like it, don't want to do it, and have no interest in it? It's not about what PvE players can do to change their PvP experience, because if they prefer a PvE ruleset, and they don't want to PvP, it's their game...Why is it I feel like some of you want to cram PvP down the throats of anyone who dare say they just would rather not? I really don't get it...Every game is going to have some PvP...Every game is going to have PvP servers...Why insist on more from folks who don't want any in the the name of what is meaningful and what is not?...If you don't want to PvP it matters not if it's meaningful or completely meaningless...If you don't want to do something, or if some aspect like their definition of getting ganked makes it a deal-breaker for them...So be it...What do you care?
All I'm saying is you can't convert someone who does not want to be converted...Nor should you even want to...To each his own...It's cool that you like PvP, and it's totally cool that you express that...But as soon as you cross over into the "kinda tells me your doing something wrong" area...Well...It's just the same old, same old...I've been MMO-ing for well over a decade now and these arguments never change...It's the exact same thing it's always been...And the simplest solution has always been different rulesets and different servers...Choice...To each his own...
That goes both ways!If you don't like pvp, good for you. Really that's cool.
But why should the game be designed just for you and obmit things many others like. Crafting, exploration, pvp, grouping, and tons more are always dumbed down or removed for you pve crowd. Just because you don't like it? Kind of hypocritical.
Also as I said I'm a crafter at heart, but you pve only people ruin mmorpgs because you want a console RPG game and not a true mmorpg.
It was more than just WoW PvE players sadly, there were multiple top-tier PvE only balance issues in Everquest... so yeah, everyone complains.
Yeah it is just the largest MMO ever made.
I understand what youre saying ... but it is usually not regarding nerfing and OPness. it is usually about preference in skills, or skill variety, or perhaps an animation glitch that delays skill activation, or particle clarity. Odd things of that sort. I would call those more along the lines of suggestions, requests, and bugs and not necessarily whines about class balance. Again, we can debate semantics till kingdom come but it was not the point I was trying to make.
True. Which is exactly the problem inasmuch as it invited a deluge of WoW clones with anything daring to venture from its glorious image to be cast aside like a soiled rag. Not to mention the WoW culture and mentality borne from it. but I digress ...