Originally posted by Nanfoodle Still not sure if I will buy a Xbox after all this mess. Makes me wonder what they will try and pull once they sell a few mill units.
^ This. Who is to say that after they sell a set number of units that a system update includes their original planned system/ DRM requirements?
"24 million units of the Kinect sensor had been shipped by February 2013 Having sold 8 million units in its first 60 days on the market, Kinect has claimed the Guinness World Record of being the "fastest selling consumer electronics device". According to Wedbush analyst Michael Pachter, Kinect bundles accounted for about half of all Xbox 360 console sales in December 2010 and for more than two-thirds in February 2011 More than 750,000 Kinect units were sold during the week of Black Friday 2011."
Seems like there was more than a tad interest in the original, and no evidence that has changed.
It' all right and all, but if I want to disconnect Kinect and still use my console for everything that does not physically require camera (like Kinect sport games) then I should be able to do so. Now I can't. It does not really matter for me if I am only person in the world that would want to do that. I can't and I don't like that I can' t - so I am not talking XboX1 into consideration. I want to have control over if camera is connected or not. Simple as that. Simply acting like consumer who don't have his requirements met.
There is a world of difference between kinnect on the 360, and kinnect on the xbone, the fact that its also optional in how its used is also fairly significant. Its also worth bearing in mind that Microsoft didnt back track because they were taking heat on forums or in the press, they backtracked because of pre-orders, the PS4 is massively outselling the Xbone, that was Microsofts reality check. Now they fix things fast, what they have done so far is a start, but now they need to address the issues that still remain, but whatever happens, Microsoft is on the back foot and struggling for balance.
The Ps4 is 100 dollars cheaper. The ps4 is more powerful. I don't have to pay a fee to access online services on the Ps4. Sony didn't try to sell me a crappy drm laden, always on ,always watching box that plays really expensive rental games. I have owned both previous Xbox consoles and never even considered buying a ps3. Due to Microsoft greed and lack of concern about what the players wanted I will now be giving my business to Sony. Don't take Microsoft's reversal on drm policies as a sign that they have mended their ways and now care about the players, they don't give a damn about the players. They saw the bottom line on a downward trajectory and so changed course.
There is a world of difference between kinnect on the 360, and kinnect on the xbone, the fact that its also optional in how its used is also fairly significant. Its also worth bearing in mind that Microsoft didnt back track because they were taking heat on forums or in the press, they backtracked because of pre-orders, the PS4 is massively outselling the Xbone, that was Microsofts reality check. Now they fix things fast, what they have done so far is a start, but now they need to address the issues that still remain, but whatever happens, Microsoft is on the back foot and struggling for balance.
There is a world of difference, to be sure, Kinect 2, for want of a better term is technologically superior in the extreme.
Make no mistake, the original Kinect, whatever one's opinion of its utility in gaming, was revolutionary. It's impact on robotics alone cannot be overstated. But if there's one thing console history teaches us, it's that as far as peripherals are concerned if it doesn't come in the box it doesn't exist in any meaningful sense. That's why the Wii U comes with the pad, it's why the Xbox One will come with Kinect 2, and it's why PS Eye will continue to be an also-ran that goes nowhere so fast it should get a speeding ticket.
MS believes that having Kinect technology be a ubiquitous part of the Xbox experience will allow for possibilities that we probably can barely imagine today. Fact is, they're right. Same can be said of the Wii U's gamepad, but if there's one thing that's clear it's that, at least to date, that hasn't panned out so well. Will that be the fate of Kinect? I tend to doubt it, but we won't know for several more years. Personally I think it'll work out well for MS, but then I also think people who really think they do anything interesting enough in their living rooms to warrant someone spying on them -- especially when it would be so much easier to do with their phone, laptop, iPad, and dozens of other devices they've had for years that have even better spying capabilities and have, in some instances, actually been caught being used to do so, yet somehow aren't worth worrying about whilst the Xbox One somehow is -- are in the minority.
As for this change having been brought about by pre-order numbers and internet rabble rousing? Eh, personally I don't buy it for a second. Frankly we'll likely never really know how it all went down, but it doesn't seem hard to connect the dots.
This whole DRM thing almost certainly wasn't being driven by MS, it was being driven by the publishers. They wanted to reduce and control used sales and prevent piracy. MS came up with their plan, Sony came up with their, probably very similar, plan. Various deals were made with publishers based on said plans. MS comes out with their plan first, figuring Sony will drop details on theirs not far behind with whatever spin they can manage and in the end it'll be a wash. Sony sees how badly it goes for MS and decides "Screw this!" dumping whatever deals they've made, figuring they can either live off of first-party stuff or that they're too big for a significant number of publishers to dump. MS sees they've been left twisting in the wind and goes into emergency renegotiation mode -- fortunately for them, Sony having bailed changes the game and probably gives MS a little leverage.
They handled it poorly -- though, if you've ever worked in management for a decent sized corporation (let alone one the size of MS) you recognize the signs of a business plan in flux -- to be sure, but if I'm right they were trying to renegotiate the whole DRM issue probably before E3 even hit. It's just not the sort of thing you can do overnight, or even in a week, I don't buy that yesterday's change had anything to do with E3 or gamer reaction. By making the mistake of going first, they set up a situation where Sony was able -- mostly through luck, I don't believe Sony would have done any better, had they gone first -- out fox them.
And, in the end, no, I don't believe MS is off balance or at any long term disadvantage here. It'll be months before reviewers start to see these units in action, and five to six months before we do. By then all of this will be very old news, as will idiot arguments over which machine is more powerful (hint: if you think there's a meaningful difference, you're a fanboi -- no other possible explanation with what little we currently know) or which "exclusive" (a term that seems to mean less and less each console generation) game we've only seen ten seconds of is the best.
In fact I expect the only lasting effect of all of this mess will, in the end, be to confirm to Sony and every other gaming corporation what they already probably knew: That Gamers have the memory span of retarded mice and will forget any and all harm you've done them if you just whisper the right lies at the right time.
I await EA's inevitable redemption -- because, frankly, Sony has done way more to screw over consumers in the past than EA has ever dreamed of -- with no small amount of amusement.
There is a world of difference between kinnect on the 360, and kinnect on the xbone, the fact that its also optional in how its used is also fairly significant. Its also worth bearing in mind that Microsoft didnt back track because they were taking heat on forums or in the press, they backtracked because of pre-orders, the PS4 is massively outselling the Xbone, that was Microsofts reality check. Now they fix things fast, what they have done so far is a start, but now they need to address the issues that still remain, but whatever happens, Microsoft is on the back foot and struggling for balance.
There is a world of difference, to be sure, Kinect 2, for want of a better term is technologically superior in the extreme.
....
As for this change having been brought about by pre-order numbers and internet rabble rousing? Eh, personally I don't buy it for a second. Frankly we'll likely never really know how it all went down, but it doesn't seem hard to connect the dots.
This whole DRM thing almost certainly wasn't being driven by MS, it was being driven by the publishers. They wanted to reduce and control used sales and prevent piracy. MS came up with their plan, Sony came up with their, probably very similar, plan. Various deals were made with publishers based on said plans. MS comes out with their plan first, figuring Sony will drop details on theirs not far behind with whatever spin they can manage and in the end it'll be a wash. Sony sees how badly it goes for MS and decides "Screw this!" dumping whatever deals they've made, figuring they can either live off of first-party stuff or that they're too big for a significant number of publishers to dump. MS sees they've been left twisting in the wind and goes into emergency renegotiation mode -- fortunately for them, Sony having bailed changes the game and probably gives MS a little leverage.
They handled it poorly --
....
In fact I expect the only lasting effect of all of this mess will, in the end, be to confirm to Sony and every other gaming corporation what they already probably knew: That Gamers have the memory span of retarded mice and will forget any and all harm you've done them if you just whisper the right lies at the right time.
I await EA's inevitable redemption -- because, frankly, Sony has done way more to screw over consumers in the past than EA has ever dreamed of -- with no small amount of amusement.
I disagree with your speculation regarding MS's strategy with the XB1. I believe they were (and still are) making a play for being the "Number 1" delivery channel for digital entertainment. Controlling game distribution is just a facet of that grand plan.
MS want the XB1 to be the ultimate (and only) set-top box you'll ever need. You'll use it to play games, but it will also provide your TV channels, movies and internet connectivity. All they need is to strike the right deals with the current providers of those various services, many of which currently provide their own set-top boxes.
MS are seeing their traditional "monopoly" in the PC OS market slowly fading away as PC's are replaced by tablets and phones. The Windows OS is no longer the OS of choice in these devices. That exclusivity is (forever ?) lost. What better way to regain that fantastic revenue stream than by making the XB1 the "must-have-box" for EVERY living room in the country ?
If games are bought, stored and accessed entirely across the network, then MS has full control of monetizing every step of the process. They can collect a small fee when you purchase a new game, or every time you play that "bought" game across the network (it's stored in the "cloud", not on your console), or when you eventually decide to sell or trade-in that game. If the publisher decides you cannot sell or trade that game, MS can enforce that decision, because they control how you access the game.
That grand plan is a licence to print money. The game publishers will support MS enthusiastically, because they will benefit massively.
Originally posted by damond5031 The Ps4 is 100 dollars cheaper. The ps4 is more powerful. I don't have to pay a fee to access online services on the Ps4. Sony didn't try to sell me a crappy drm laden, always on ,always watching box that plays really expensive rental games. I have owned both previous Xbox consoles and never even considered buying a ps3. Due to Microsoft greed and lack of concern about what the players wanted I will now be giving my business to Sony. Don't take Microsoft's reversal on drm policies as a sign that they have mended their ways and now care about the players, they don't give a damn about the players. They saw the bottom line on a downward trajectory and so changed course.
Sorry have to call you right there....You DO have to pay for online services on the PS4...unlike before you now NEED a PSN+ account to play any online games with the ps4 (no word if that will extend to the PS3) No PS4 doesnt try to sell you DRM, they just include it when you log in Sure, Microsoft cares nothing about the people...The people saw something they didnt like, they complained, microsoft reversed some. Sure that might be just because they want your money, but cant fault them for that..they are a business, and those things are made to make money.
What I never really understood, was most if not all of my console playing is done online though XBL. Suddenly people are up in arms because now they have to do a 'once a day check'. This shouldn't be a problem for the 'hardcore gamer' Ofcourse if you miss the 24 hour window then what? You cant play the games on the HD until you connect again. OMG it's the end of the world!!! People somehow got the idea in their head that "OMG if I don't log in every day, they are going to take my games away from me forever!!!!" People need to stop the knee-jerk reactions and research before they flip out.
Now, if you want to shoot down anything I've said, please include links with words from official Microsoft posts, not 2nd -5th hand info someone heard while in the bathroom at E3.
Great, entitled teens just ruined a cool cloud feature and digital future just so they can continue stuffing money into Gamestops pockets instead of supporting devs. Fuck second hand and fuck "gamers".
Originally posted by Toferio Great, entitled teens just ruined a cool cloud feature and digital future just so they can continue stuffing money into Gamestops pockets instead of supporting devs. Fuck second hand and fuck "gamers".
Originally posted by damond5031 The Ps4 is 100 dollars cheaper. The ps4 is more powerful. I don't have to pay a fee to access online services on the Ps4. Sony didn't try to sell me a crappy drm laden, always on ,always watching box that plays really expensive rental games. I have owned both previous Xbox consoles and never even considered buying a ps3. Due to Microsoft greed and lack of concern about what the players wanted I will now be giving my business to Sony. Don't take Microsoft's reversal on drm policies as a sign that they have mended their ways and now care about the players, they don't give a damn about the players. They saw the bottom line on a downward trajectory and so changed course.
Sorry have to call you right there....You DO have to pay for online services on the PS4...unlike before you now NEED a PSN+ account to play any online games with the ps4 (no word if that will extend to the PS3) No PS4 doesnt try to sell you DRM, they just include it when you log in Sure, Microsoft cares nothing about the people...The people saw something they didnt like, they complained, microsoft reversed some. Sure that might be just because they want your money, but cant fault them for that..they are a business, and those things are made to make money.
What I never really understood, was most if not all of my console playing is done online though XBL. Suddenly people are up in arms because now they have to do a 'once a day check'. This shouldn't be a problem for the 'hardcore gamer' Ofcourse if you miss the 24 hour window then what? You cant play the games on the HD until you connect again. OMG it's the end of the world!!! People somehow got the idea in their head that "OMG if I don't log in every day, they are going to take my games away from me forever!!!!" People need to stop the knee-jerk reactions and research before they flip out.
Now, if you want to shoot down anything I've said, please include links with words from official Microsoft posts, not 2nd -5th hand info someone heard while in the bathroom at E3.
When someone is referencing online services they are specifically referring to things like Netflix which you need Xbl Gold for but can use on the PS4 with no service fees from PS4.
Microsoft cared that it was getting outsold by a large margin and had to switch gears. They didn't care that tons of gamers disliked what they were doing.
While your gaming may mostly be done through XBL many people use these consoles as well, consoles for single player games.
As far as the knee jerk reactions, could you point them out because from what I saw is that many brought up very valid points on why they saw these things as bad.
You want links? Do the research yourself like I did, especially since you just tried to claim everyone that was unhappy didn't do any research and just started wigging out lol.
Originally posted by Toferio Great, entitled teens just ruined a cool cloud feature and digital future just so they can continue stuffing money into Gamestops pockets instead of supporting devs. Fuck second hand and fuck "gamers".
You made the mistake a few others have. It takes money out of publisher hands, not developers. Keep in mind that there are no games on the Xbox One that do not have a Publisher lol... Microsoft is the one taking money out of the developers pockets.
Originally posted by Toferio Great, entitled teens just ruined a cool cloud feature and digital future just so they can continue stuffing money into Gamestops pockets instead of supporting devs. Fuck second hand and fuck "gamers".
Ridonkulous statement..
PM before you report at least or you could just block.
Sorry have to call you right there....You DO have to pay for online services on the PS4...unlike before you now NEED a PSN+ account to play any online games with the ps4 (no word if that will extend to the PS3) No PS4 doesnt try to sell you DRM, they just include it when you log in Sure, Microsoft cares nothing about the people...The people saw something they didnt like, they complained, microsoft reversed some. Sure that might be just because they want your money, but cant fault them for that..they are a business, and those things are made to make money.
What I never really understood, was most if not all of my console playing is done online though XBL. Suddenly people are up in arms because now they have to do a 'once a day check'. This shouldn't be a problem for the 'hardcore gamer' Ofcourse if you miss the 24 hour window then what? You cant play the games on the HD until you connect again. OMG it's the end of the world!!! People somehow got the idea in their head that "OMG if I don't log in every day, they are going to take my games away from me forever!!!!" People need to stop the knee-jerk reactions and research before they flip out.
Now, if you want to shoot down anything I've said, please include links with words from official Microsoft posts, not 2nd -5th hand info someone heard while in the bathroom at E3.
This post is really funny since the Xbox online went offline today.
Originally posted by Toferio Great, entitled teens just ruined a cool cloud feature and digital future just so they can continue stuffing money into Gamestops pockets instead of supporting devs. Fuck second hand and fuck "gamers".
If Microsoft really was all that, and really was forward looking and thinking, they would have made those features optional. If you wanted to install the games to the HDD for better performance or faster switching between entertainment applications, you agree to checking in every 24 hours and to not just passing your discs around. Otherwise, you can pass your discs around with like minded people, you just don't get the "cool cloud feature" and "digital future".
Or, like Sony they could skip the dumb DRM and have cloud features and a digital future anyway.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Microsoft wanted to restrict us in every way, it wasn't in our best interest, and those who think it was in the gamers best interest are freaking ********.
I'll keep my 360 and ofcourse PC, and add a PS4 to the collection.
I don't trust them; they could change their policy back at anytime after sales. Besides, you're still perpetually being monitored via video/audio. Will games shut down with too many people present?
Microsoft : hmm the ps4 is crapping on us in preorders, I thought the consumers would buy us renting them games for $60. Lets just remove DRM? for now for sales,then change the TOS so we can't be sued,and bring the DRM policy back later since we have the right to change at anytime we feel.
Comments
^ This. Who is to say that after they sell a set number of units that a system update includes their original planned system/ DRM requirements?
There is a world of difference between kinnect on the 360, and kinnect on the xbone, the fact that its also optional in how its used is also fairly significant. Its also worth bearing in mind that Microsoft didnt back track because they were taking heat on forums or in the press, they backtracked because of pre-orders, the PS4 is massively outselling the Xbone, that was Microsofts reality check. Now they fix things fast, what they have done so far is a start, but now they need to address the issues that still remain, but whatever happens, Microsoft is on the back foot and struggling for balance.
There is a world of difference, to be sure, Kinect 2, for want of a better term is technologically superior in the extreme.
Make no mistake, the original Kinect, whatever one's opinion of its utility in gaming, was revolutionary. It's impact on robotics alone cannot be overstated. But if there's one thing console history teaches us, it's that as far as peripherals are concerned if it doesn't come in the box it doesn't exist in any meaningful sense. That's why the Wii U comes with the pad, it's why the Xbox One will come with Kinect 2, and it's why PS Eye will continue to be an also-ran that goes nowhere so fast it should get a speeding ticket.
MS believes that having Kinect technology be a ubiquitous part of the Xbox experience will allow for possibilities that we probably can barely imagine today. Fact is, they're right. Same can be said of the Wii U's gamepad, but if there's one thing that's clear it's that, at least to date, that hasn't panned out so well. Will that be the fate of Kinect? I tend to doubt it, but we won't know for several more years. Personally I think it'll work out well for MS, but then I also think people who really think they do anything interesting enough in their living rooms to warrant someone spying on them -- especially when it would be so much easier to do with their phone, laptop, iPad, and dozens of other devices they've had for years that have even better spying capabilities and have, in some instances, actually been caught being used to do so, yet somehow aren't worth worrying about whilst the Xbox One somehow is -- are in the minority.
As for this change having been brought about by pre-order numbers and internet rabble rousing? Eh, personally I don't buy it for a second. Frankly we'll likely never really know how it all went down, but it doesn't seem hard to connect the dots.
This whole DRM thing almost certainly wasn't being driven by MS, it was being driven by the publishers. They wanted to reduce and control used sales and prevent piracy. MS came up with their plan, Sony came up with their, probably very similar, plan. Various deals were made with publishers based on said plans. MS comes out with their plan first, figuring Sony will drop details on theirs not far behind with whatever spin they can manage and in the end it'll be a wash. Sony sees how badly it goes for MS and decides "Screw this!" dumping whatever deals they've made, figuring they can either live off of first-party stuff or that they're too big for a significant number of publishers to dump. MS sees they've been left twisting in the wind and goes into emergency renegotiation mode -- fortunately for them, Sony having bailed changes the game and probably gives MS a little leverage.
They handled it poorly -- though, if you've ever worked in management for a decent sized corporation (let alone one the size of MS) you recognize the signs of a business plan in flux -- to be sure, but if I'm right they were trying to renegotiate the whole DRM issue probably before E3 even hit. It's just not the sort of thing you can do overnight, or even in a week, I don't buy that yesterday's change had anything to do with E3 or gamer reaction. By making the mistake of going first, they set up a situation where Sony was able -- mostly through luck, I don't believe Sony would have done any better, had they gone first -- out fox them.
And, in the end, no, I don't believe MS is off balance or at any long term disadvantage here. It'll be months before reviewers start to see these units in action, and five to six months before we do. By then all of this will be very old news, as will idiot arguments over which machine is more powerful (hint: if you think there's a meaningful difference, you're a fanboi -- no other possible explanation with what little we currently know) or which "exclusive" (a term that seems to mean less and less each console generation) game we've only seen ten seconds of is the best.
In fact I expect the only lasting effect of all of this mess will, in the end, be to confirm to Sony and every other gaming corporation what they already probably knew: That Gamers have the memory span of retarded mice and will forget any and all harm you've done them if you just whisper the right lies at the right time.
I await EA's inevitable redemption -- because, frankly, Sony has done way more to screw over consumers in the past than EA has ever dreamed of -- with no small amount of amusement.
I disagree with your speculation regarding MS's strategy with the XB1. I believe they were (and still are) making a play for being the "Number 1" delivery channel for digital entertainment. Controlling game distribution is just a facet of that grand plan.
MS want the XB1 to be the ultimate (and only) set-top box you'll ever need. You'll use it to play games, but it will also provide your TV channels, movies and internet connectivity. All they need is to strike the right deals with the current providers of those various services, many of which currently provide their own set-top boxes.
MS are seeing their traditional "monopoly" in the PC OS market slowly fading away as PC's are replaced by tablets and phones. The Windows OS is no longer the OS of choice in these devices. That exclusivity is (forever ?) lost. What better way to regain that fantastic revenue stream than by making the XB1 the "must-have-box" for EVERY living room in the country ?
If games are bought, stored and accessed entirely across the network, then MS has full control of monetizing every step of the process. They can collect a small fee when you purchase a new game, or every time you play that "bought" game across the network (it's stored in the "cloud", not on your console), or when you eventually decide to sell or trade-in that game. If the publisher decides you cannot sell or trade that game, MS can enforce that decision, because they control how you access the game.
That grand plan is a licence to print money. The game publishers will support MS enthusiastically, because they will benefit massively.
Sorry have to call you right there....You DO have to pay for online services on the PS4...unlike before you now NEED a PSN+ account to play any online games with the ps4 (no word if that will extend to the PS3) No PS4 doesnt try to sell you DRM, they just include it when you log in
Sure, Microsoft cares nothing about the people...The people saw something they didnt like, they complained, microsoft reversed some. Sure that might be just because they want your money, but cant fault them for that..they are a business, and those things are made to make money.
What I never really understood, was most if not all of my console playing is done online though XBL. Suddenly people are up in arms because now they have to do a 'once a day check'. This shouldn't be a problem for the 'hardcore gamer' Ofcourse if you miss the 24 hour window then what? You cant play the games on the HD until you connect again. OMG it's the end of the world!!! People somehow got the idea in their head that "OMG if I don't log in every day, they are going to take my games away from me forever!!!!" People need to stop the knee-jerk reactions and research before they flip out.
Now, if you want to shoot down anything I've said, please include links with words from official Microsoft posts, not 2nd -5th hand info someone heard while in the bathroom at E3.
1) Cloud isn't going anywhere.
2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcXdWRJ-xb4
My theme song.
When someone is referencing online services they are specifically referring to things like Netflix which you need Xbl Gold for but can use on the PS4 with no service fees from PS4.
Microsoft cared that it was getting outsold by a large margin and had to switch gears. They didn't care that tons of gamers disliked what they were doing.
While your gaming may mostly be done through XBL many people use these consoles as well, consoles for single player games.
As far as the knee jerk reactions, could you point them out because from what I saw is that many brought up very valid points on why they saw these things as bad.
You want links? Do the research yourself like I did, especially since you just tried to claim everyone that was unhappy didn't do any research and just started wigging out lol.
You made the mistake a few others have. It takes money out of publisher hands, not developers. Keep in mind that there are no games on the Xbox One that do not have a Publisher
lol... Microsoft is the one taking money out of the developers pockets.
Ridonkulous statement..
PM before you report at least or you could just block.
This post is really funny since the Xbox online went offline today.
Milander 'What's wrong with 24 hour checks?' ROFL!!
Even Microsoft insiders like Paul Thurrot is calling for the 'paywall' to be removed for online services like Netflix on Xbox.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
If Microsoft really was all that, and really was forward looking and thinking, they would have made those features optional. If you wanted to install the games to the HDD for better performance or faster switching between entertainment applications, you agree to checking in every 24 hours and to not just passing your discs around. Otherwise, you can pass your discs around with like minded people, you just don't get the "cool cloud feature" and "digital future".
Or, like Sony they could skip the dumb DRM and have cloud features and a digital future anyway.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I'm still getting PS4..
Microsoft wanted to restrict us in every way, it wasn't in our best interest, and those who think it was in the gamers best interest are freaking ********.
I'll keep my 360 and ofcourse PC, and add a PS4 to the collection.
Haha, people are so paranoid in this thread. But MS didn't do this for us, the gamers waaaaghh,...But they may change it later on waaaghh....
Facepalm...
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Microsoft : hmm the ps4 is crapping on us in preorders, I thought the consumers would buy us renting them games for $60. Lets just remove DRM? for now for sales,then change the TOS so we can't be sued,and bring the DRM policy back later since we have the right to change at anytime we feel.
Que!! Admiral Ackbar(.mp3)