It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
I love it lol, the F2P crowd up in arms because the game is P2P, and they thought P2P was dead lol.
Pay up or don't play, it's as simple as that, the game will do fine without ya.
Originally posted by drivendawn http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/ Really like this article.
I for one am happy. Tired of people being peasants and expect stuff free.
Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Murugan
Ok then, here is my reasoning behind why I feel that way. I think it's pretty average for a few reasons.
The combat is really slow. I think almost all MMORPGs that have come out in the past 5ish years have better combat. And it's not because I'm into a more action oriented style combat. I actually enjoy tab targeting systems. But the 2.5 second global cooldown mixed with a few instant casts with long cooldowns is just too boring to me. I have too much experience in MMORPGs to be able to put up with such a harsh restriction.
The world feels below average compared to other themepark MMORPGs. Enemies are crammed in every 20 feet from each other and the zones themselves, while more open than they were in FFXIV V1, feel a lot more closed in than many other top MMORPGs. They just feel artificial and the zone lines tend to be more common than other more recent games.
It's very quest hub oriented. And it's a very "kill ten rats" oriented experience. I didn't expect this at all. I'm sure it changes a bit later after you've done all the quests, but I was hoping for a much stronger solo experience. I mean, the quests are worse than WoW quests which actually offer some semblance of variety. Of course you can simply choose not to do them like every other MMORPG and level through dungeons and group content or whatever. As a solo experience, it's just not very compelling.
Up till around level 20, the story was sub par in my opinion. Boring, useless cutscenes that weren't well written or interesting at all to me. I started to become glad you could skip them. This wasn't because I don't like the idea of story quests or because I have a short attention span or don't enjoy some good lore. It was because they just weren't very good. They were VERY cheesy even when compared to the story in FFXIII. This part of the game has gotten way more credit than it deserves in my opinion.
No voiceovers at all. I've read that they are going to add them after they figure out all the contracts or whatever, but it was a bit startling to have ZERO voiceover - especially in a FF game. I'm actually down for text when it comes to 90% of the game, but there were times when it was a bit jarring compared to some of the more recent offerings.
Soloability is really, really easy. Even if you do run out of quests, you can just run around and do fates and leves. They level you extremely quickly. I'm sure this will slow down as I get higher in the beta, but as of right now, god damn that was fast.
There just isn't anything particularly special when I compare it to other MMORPGs. Rifts/DEs are better than fates. Quests are better in other MMORPGs. Leves are just dailies which I also don't like. Rift and EQ2 have great housing systems (I'm actually curious to check this out in FFXIV). Group dynamics in group content is more interesting in other games (limit breaks are over simplified imo). I've read a lot of people talking about how crafting is fairly useless while leveling it which is pretty standard for a themepark MMO. There is nothing that I've seen that makes this game stand up above some of the best F2P and P2P games. Hence my opinion that a lot of other games, be them F2P or P2P, are a better way to spend your time.
Other than a few things that I think you misconstrued, thank you. That explains it perfectly. It will be useful not only to our discussion but to anyone reading it.
I'll just bullet point my responses:
I guess that is why I like it and you don't, but now that you have detailed your criticisms. People can read them and use your experiences to better decide for themselves whether this game might be for them or not. As opposed to trolling with short generalizations and zingers that only accomplishes to piss off people who have different opinions than you.
The internet doesn't have to be such a cesspit all the time if people just take the time to have an actual discussion like you just did. Thank you, I was wrong I now have a much higher opinion of you.
Originally posted by DMKano F2P is creating additional jobs.... P2P is not.
You do realize these F2P conversions are surrounded by layoffs right? Do you honestly believe it takes a bigger team of developers to make the next cash shop fashion trend than it does to make real content?
The only "jobs" f2p is saving is those of the suits who gut their entire development team in order to make it f2p.
Originally posted by Asm0deus Originally posted by Murugan Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Murugan See? He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him. He likes Rift better, I don't. He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it. That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone. Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport. That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it. You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.
Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after it releases.
*SNIP* ........ I think people who advocate for F2P are either freeloaders are cheaters...... *SNIP*
Would you mind explaining the reasoning behind this belief that people that play f2p games are "either freeloaders or cheaters" ?
I am curious as just flat out saying this is making you appear very bigoted and IMHO hurting your defense of p2p.
Well a free rider is anyone who leeches off of the contributions of others in order to share in the rewards without having to contribute themselves. They don't contribute anything to the game because they are not helping to pay for it. They simply play for free, taking up space and while they don't positively contribute to the game (because they don't pay), they can negatively contribute the game because they often:
So they are freeloaders, they are just taking advantage of the fact that there are actual paying players while giving nothing back. I guess you could say they are giving the gift of themselves, but I tried doing this with my girlfriend one year for Valentine's day and she wasn't very happy with me.
A cheat is anyone who purchases an item in a cash shop that is not a content unlock (like an expansion or something). They are bypassing the game's system to get an advantage using cash. If I'm playing baseball and some guy is paying to get performance enhancing drugs or for the umpire to look the other way it makes me angry. Even if I'm on their team and they can make the argument that it "doesn't negatively effect me" it is still cheating and I'm trying to play a game here and have fun.
Now I know what you will probably say. "All these things happen in P2P MMO's and have for over a decade". I don't disagree, but it is still a problem. I don't want the game or the company behind the game to give in and start being the drug dealer selling the steroids or opening the floodgates to spammers and trolls in a desparate attempt to get some money. I mean there is a limited amount of space on servers and I'm not profit sharing, I just want a fun experience.
I get a better experience in a P2P MMORPG. I played Vanguard (when it was p2p) and I played TERA they both had piss poor development cycles for new content. Business models alone, Vanguard was sooooo much better due to p2p without half of the problems f2p has brought Tera. And I hear TERA is like the "best f2p" model ever. As soon as you log into the game you have to wade through a sea of twelve year olds masturbating while performing emotes in their stripped down female characters. I could go on, but to me that's enough to show you what F2P and more specifically "freeloading" really did for the game.
Originally posted by Murugan Originally posted by Asm0deus Originally posted by Murugan Originally posted by colddog04 Originally posted by Murugan See? He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him. He likes Rift better, I don't. He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it. That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone. Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport. That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it. You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.
Ah do you realize your fundamental error in this belief now that you have expressed it? You give 2 options.
1. People are freeloaders because they refuse to use the cash shop, the reason why doesn't matter as this can be very subjective.
2, if they do use it (so as not to be "freeloaders") they are cheaters.
3. Unless they buy "content". Like say in DDO you can buy adv packs.
What about f2p games that don't sell "content" but rather items like bank/inventory space unique mounts etc etc.
I mean I understand many cash shop are done very badly and offer p2w items but some people use these shops but do not buy the p2w items as they tend to be very costly.
There is often a 3rd faction.
I think you need to realize that not all f2p players are "freeloaders" or "cheaters" , it's very sloppy thinking when you try to lump all people into certain groups based on personal prejudices.
Edit: your baseball game example is flawed because in baseball that would be considered cheating, the equivalent in a f2p mmo would be an exploit. Something the game allows for isn't technically a cheat.
Lets take a boxing example. The non cash shop users is training himself with limited funds where as the cash shop user has a much bigger budget and can afford a personal trainer and equipment for ideal training.
Neither are exploiting or cheating yet the one with more money clearly has an advantage..
That said I am quite happy the game will be p2p as long as they never ever introduce a cash shop.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
case: Coolermaster HAF932PSU: Antec EA 750watt RAM: 4x2g G-SKILL DDR3-1600mhz 9-9-9-24Mb:Gigabyte GA-P55-UD4P CPU: i5-750 @4ghzGPU: gtx msi N760 TF 2GD5/OCcooling: Noctua NH-D14storage: seagate 600 240GB SSD, 500GB x7200rpm HDD
Originally posted by Kayo83 Originally posted by Moodsor Originally posted by Ehllfhire The game will still be f2p by a year in. Although fun, its an average clone game with nothing unique to it in an mmo setting. And yes I can confirm Im in the beta. Game heads always say no f2p all the way up to f2p (looking at TSW for one)
So thats why FFXI is still sub based? Square Enix doesn't believe in the F2P model, but nice try.
Exactly. Never say never but until FFXI goes f2p im not even going to worry. There is very little chance, specially if its just within a year. Even Rift, whose self-published (much like FFXIV and WoW) and doesnt have a strong IP behind it, went 3 years with p2p before switching. Even so they had to go through 2 epic fail releases (EoN and Defiance) before they finally made the switch.
Sure, SE had some trouble with Tomb Raider (because they invested too much in it) but the game still sold really well despite profits coming up short.
Good points, but what I think we are all failing to remember is there is only one other company in the mmo market place like Square Enix and its Blizzard.
These two companies have so much money they arent worried about f2p short term profits. SE lost 150 million last year and is still putting money into FFXIV. They spent 3 million on 1.0s eight minute cg movie, ending the game forever. No other company can do that save Blizzard.
FFXI had a sub base o 500k for five straight years. No other game can say that except WoW. Its not crazy to think that FFXIV can do better. WIth a 750k sub base they are looking at more than 8 million a month. Money they dont have to pay back to any investors. To bet on them going f2p within a year is just ignorance. You are forgetting that the FF franchise sells. They have fans around the world. I have played every FF since FF7. I hated FF13, yet its still sold 10 million copies. Thats as many as Skyrim.
Originally posted by Arcticnoon Originally posted by Kayo83 Originally posted by Moodsor Originally posted by Ehllfhire The game will still be f2p by a year in. Although fun, its an average clone game with nothing unique to it in an mmo setting. And yes I can confirm Im in the beta. Game heads always say no f2p all the way up to f2p (looking at TSW for one)
Aye I agree with this, I would like to inject I think for a company like SE it also about not losing face. I think much of the reboot is about that as well.
Originally posted by tkreep Final Fantasy 11 at its highest subs were about 2 million and majority of its years sustained about 500K subs as a p2p. On top of that SE said the game made them more money than any of the other games of the series. I think this game will do just as well or more than Final Fantasy 11 especially because its more casual friendly.
2 millions eh?
Would you mind showing us where is this 2 millions you spoke of?
Originally posted by SnarkRitter Originally posted by tkreep Final Fantasy 11 at its highest subs were about 2 million and majority of its years sustained about 500K subs as a p2p. On top of that SE said the game made them more money than any of the other games of the series. I think this game will do just as well or more than Final Fantasy 11 especially because its more casual friendly.
Keeping subs at 500k for the majority of it's lifetime and it's still going with the PTP model is pretty damn good if you ask me.
Originally posted by vandal5627 Keeping subs at 500k for the majority of it's lifetime and it's still going with the PTP model is pretty damn good if you ask me.
Yes it's actually a great achievement, wonder how did the game took a major nosedive in 2009, Japanese suddenly found out World of Warcraft then?
What's more likely thought, I think that the game's been slowly losing sub since 2004, but the graph stays straight from 2004 to 2009 because of the lack of information regarding the amount of subscribers in that period of time.
Originally posted by SnarkRitter Originally posted by vandal5627 Keeping subs at 500k for the majority of it's lifetime and it's still going with the PTP model is pretty damn good if you ask me.
WOW came out in 2004, i'm sure they weren't in such a bubble that they didnt know it didn't know about wow until 2009. The game aged, of course it's going to take a nose dive. By that time, there were hundreds of MMOs out there people can choose from. Even WOW right now is bleeding subs after 8 to 9 years.
You like to accuse people of assuming stuff but you sure like to make assumptions don't you? Has it occurred to you that they actually made a good game and kept subs that high for that period of time? You posted the graph to discredit someone else, now you're discrediting the same graph because it's not of your opinion? So maybe the other guy was right that FFXI actually did hit 2 million subs at one point?
Originally posted by vandal5627 WOW came out in 2004, i'm sure they weren't in such a bubble that they didnt know it didn't know about wow until 2009. The game aged, of course it's going to take a nose dive. By that time, there were hundreds of MMOs out there people can choose from. Even WOW right now is bleeding subs after 8 to 9 years. No, that was simply a joke, perhaps I should put a smily next time? You like to accuse people of assuming stuff but you sure like to make assumptions don't you? Has it occurred to you that they actually made a good game and kept subs that high for that period of time? You posted the graph to discredit someone else, now you're discrediting the same graph because it's not of your opinion? So maybe the other guy was right that FFXI actually did hit 2 million subs at one point? The difference is when I make assumption, I make it clear that it is my assumption. About the graph it's just a side thing that made me wonder, a game's subscribers base that stayed almost exactly straight for 5 years then suddenly took a major nosedive, doesn't seem natural to me. But in the end, I trust the graphs of this website.
Originally posted by Kayo83 Originally posted by Shauneepeak Originally posted by MattTheHG Originally posted by drivendawn http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/final-fantasy-online-director-defends-monthly-subscriptions-in-the-golden-age-of-free-to-play-exclusive/ Really like this article.
Yoshida is the man!
It's a good move, indeed. You can tell that SE really wants this to be a quality MMO for people to play and enjoy, and for people working behind the scenes to get what they deserve.
I understand a lot of people don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, and complain about that idea, but the reality of it is.. if you want an MMO to last long and to be something that you actually want to play, then you're going to have to pay for it and invest in it.
Plus, $15 is not that much compared to other expenses we spend our money on... alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, happy meals...
I don't use or buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, or happy meals... and $15 a month for a game is a lot nowadays that's $180 a year essentially 3-4 full priced games or more half than half the price of a game console. I could do $10 a month $120 is fine by me long as a game includes free expansions unlike WoW $15 a month+$ expansions was just stupid.
So you dont go to the movies either? Eat out more than 2-3 times a month? Hope not ... Also I dont know how long you can go playing the same game over and over but 3-4 full priced games can easily be beaten and completed in 2 months tops. Only game Ive gotten a better deal than an MMO so far has been an Elder Scrolls game. How much does the usual DLC go for now-a-days? $10-$20? Thats 1/3 price of a full game for maybe 4-5 more hours of content? 45 minutes if we're talking an EA game. You have Xbox Live Gold?
Yeah if I played other games nearly as much as ive played MMO's id be buying a new game every month.
P.S: $7 an hour paycheck is a lot nowadays. Thats over half a million dollars before I retire! Thats like 2 brand new Ferrari's! See what I did there? You can make any minuscule amount seem like a lot when you multiply it enough.
I also don't go out to the movies or out to eat because I feel both of those things are overpriced and a waist of money I can easily wait for the movie to come out and then my states library system allows you to rent almost any movie for free also with the crap they put in food nowadays why would I spend $25 on a meal and organic restaurants are just a rip off most of the time I can run to whole food and probably make or buy something nearly as good for half the price. I also tend not to buy DLC for most games I own, the only DLC I have ever bought was Dawnguard if you don't include paying extra for a game of the year edition as DLC. I also don't have an Xbox so don't pay for online. I spent years in poverty growing up and I think most people don't realize how much that $5 jump in price can mean maybe once I graduate college and can get a real job I might change my mind but being a college student is quite similar to still living in poverty.
$15 is a lot of money to many people it may not seem like that to some and that is great I am happy for you. I just don't see why $15 has always seemed to be the MMO standard.
$10 a month for 12 months for 10 years=$1200
$15 a month for 12 months for 10 years=$2160
That is an extra $1040 dollars or 13 months of electric bills, 30 months of internet, 231 gallons of gasoline, or close to a years worth of car insurance. See what I did there?
I understand what you are saying but please don't be a jerk about things. Many people live different kinds of lives what might be cheap to you might be the difference of paying the light bill this month. In reality I should probably drop gaming it would save me a lot of money but it is one of the few things I enjoy and I really enjoy Final Fantasy XIV but I can not reason with myself that $15 a month is not too much I could barely make $10 a month seem fine.
Also just an example for non MMO games I own picked up Fallout 3 used for $9 I have over 100hrs into it picked up Fallout New Vegas for $10 over 120hrs of game time put into it, Red Dead Redemption GOTY for $25 over 40hrs put into it, Battlefield 3 pre-ordered for free DLC payed $60 8hrs of campaign over 100hrs online no DLC purchased, Sykrim payed full $60 plus received Dawn Guard for half off so that is $70 and I have put Hundreds of hours into that.
Probably the least game time I have gotten out of a game this gen was Uncharted 1+2 but I payed $15 for the uncharted bundle through a special GameStop email offer so that is $15 for 2 games which in total probably have 30-40hrs of gameplay.
It's a common mistake I see people make.
SE announced a few years ago that they'd hit the 2 million *characters* in Vana'diel. They never hit 2 million active players. People see the 2 million and then don't differentiate between players and characters. Quite different.
Everything else tkreep says, however, is true. It did hold strong at 500k players for most of its service, and it has gone on to be SE's most profitable game, and is still going pretty strong, esp. for a 11 year old game.
Originally posted by Shauneepeak $15 is a lot of money to many people it may not seem like that to some and that is great I am happy for you. I just don't see why $15 has always seemed to be the MMO standard
You honestly believe SE, or Blizzard, are getting their entire $15/active subscription straight into their coffers? Please. The giant credit companies like VISA and Mastercard may give incentives and discounts to larger companies, but by the time it trickles down to them, it's not $15.
Like other business, they thought long and hard about their subscription model. They're not just throwing darts at a board. Taking into consideration the transaction fees, operating costs, future development, taxes, etc... the amount they're charging for subscriptions in terms of value, is still bar none one of the best in the entertainment industry.
My families run a small chain of corner stores for decades now. When I first saw the books, I was like holy shit, we bring in how much every month?! Then they showed me the deductions and I was like HOLY SHIT.
$15 isn't an MMO standard. It's a standard that's forced by the companies that handle their transactions for them if they want to see any kind of profit. Most people I've seen whine about subscription costs I know personally have never run their own business before. They honestly have no clue.
Originally posted by Bahamut231 Ive played enough F2p now to know that all the time and investments are spent into the cash shop instead of the games content, even B2P are the same way as the initial burst of sales income doesnt cover future content updates P2P is really the only way to go for the bigger and better MMO's, if you want a game that is going to last VERY long and will always have support and updates from the developers you cant beat P2P Developers need the constant and steady income or they cant afford to work on new content, with F2P you just simply never know if people are going to spend loads on your cash shop or not in a month, with P2P you always know what you are going to make
Well the only B2P out there (to my understanding) is GW2 and they have proven thus far the exact opposite of your assumption here. They have churned out quite a bit of content and updates since release on a B2P model. While I don't care for it all being temporary, it is still content. People discredit it as fluff, but that is mostly because of their game design having horizontal rather than vertical progression making everything seem like only fluff. But be that as it may, they have given the community extra content just like any sub based game and more content than I have experienced in a games first year than any sub game I have been a part of. Sure some of it was holiday but not all, yet it is proof that the devs are busy and there hasn't been any stories of layoffs so the company seems to be doing fine. Maybe it's a little too early to claim the model can't survive unless the game is designed around it's cashop which GW2 clearly is not.
I'd also like to add you don't always know what you are going to make in a sub either. Look at WoW, sure it has a huge fanbase, but look at their numbers 2 months after every expansion and notice declines....... Subs fluctuate too, just not on the same level as F2P games but you can imagine that the 2 years between expansions is a long time for development cycles and that subs numbers are not steady the whole time. Also WoW is a good example that sub money doesn't guarantee better product but that's just my opinion
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
Originally posted by Shauneepeak $15 is a lot of money to many people it may not seem like that to some and that is great I am happy for you. I just don't see why $15 has always seemed to be the MMO standard. $10 a month for 12 months for 10 years=$1200 $15 a month for 12 months for 10 years=$2160 That is an extra $1040 dollars or 13 months of electric bills, 30 months of internet, 231 gallons of gasoline, or close to a years worth of car insurance. See what I did there?
Youre doing the whole overpricing thing again. Youre not even likely to be playing FFXIV in the next 10 years and I would hope you'd at least be out of college by then. I was in the same situation with the whole college thing, even the Ramen Noodle Diet cliche, and the WoW release was a godsend. For $15 a month I got most of my gaming and socializing out of the way. I cant spend that much time on those Bethesda games, they get incredibly easy once you get a fair amount of levels in and the monotonous "cave#345 for guild#4" quests, by my self, it gets boring and repetitive after a while. Sure, the same can be said with MMO's but the socializing and community aspects help out a ton. FPS shooters are fun too but after doing the same exact map 100 times, I kinda dont care anymore.
BTW, you originally said $180 = 3-4 games now youre talking 3-18 games. Maybe you dont play MMO's enough to make $15 worth your time, or maybe you just need more variety so you scrape what you can out of the used/old $10 dollar bin ... thats one thing, but saying its not worth it because it costs $2160 over 10 years is a bit dishonest. The fact remains, for most, its a hell of a deal compared to 90% of the other social/entertainment products and activities out there.