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Interview with Yoshida on P2P decision

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  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,378Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by FlawSGI

     I don't believe a payment model makes a game better or worse TBH. A lot of people appear to have the notion that F2P advocates are cheap and it is the $15 that they complain about, but if you actually stop attacking and listen to the arguments it's really about what they feel their money is worth and not the price of the sub. I don't like subs for the simple fact that few game have really been worth it to me. Then again, I detest the cash grabs that some F2P's use when making their cash shop decisions and limitations on gameplay. I'd rather pay a sub over the alternative.

     

    While I like the article, I don't buy that steady revenue = better planning and more content. It sounds like a great justification for having a sub, but I haven't seen that it equates to a better overall product. WoW, IMO, was an outstanding game for years, yet they have managed to butcher that game and their updates don't come out any faster or any better than other games I have played. I know this is a very subjective example but this is my opinion on why I don't see sub equating to a better product. I will say that FFXI had some of the best bang for their buck when it came to expansions though. 

    I agree with this.  That's what i was thinking when i read that interview.  He's trying to justify that a sub model is going to be a better product.  The problem with this argument though, is that there was a reason these MMOs lost players, and that's because it's not worth the value.

    When they create sub-par MMOs, and just clones in general, they should expect that players aren't going to stick around, which in turn means less money per month... which means a smaller staff... which means less content and few updates.  Swtor is the prime example.  Massive layoffs, and a half-assed "expansion".  It wasn't because of F2P though.  It was because of the game.

     He's not trying to justify a subscription model is going to be a better product, he's just saying with a subscription model, he can better forcast what he wants to do for future updates as well as staff, you can't do that in a BTP or FTP model because you can't predict your revenue easily.

     I can see that and can agree with it if this was what usually happened in the games I payed subs for..... but it hasn't been the case for me. I played FFXI and the content was good and the game seemed to put out content regularly enough, but other than that all of the other games I have subbed to didn't update to often nor did sub revinues guarantee me better quality of content than other games.

    I also wasn't saying he was claiming sub games made a better product, I was just pointing out, to those that latch onto this aspect alone and try to shoot down every other game that isn't a P2P game, that a games payment model in and of itself does not guarantee a better product nor more timely and better updates. It's the people on this site who champion the game due to its payment model that I was speaking to, not the interviewee. My stand is that I don't care for F2P, but I don't instantly bash one game and praise another on it's payment model alone like others have apparently done. I will say that FFXIV was fun from what I have experienced and I plan to support them for as long as I am entertained.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • Tonin109Tonin109 ??, CAPosts: 201Member

    with the next gen consoles and the open world games like the division or watchdog not sure if its a good move

    i still like final fantasy

    image

  • FlawSGIFlawSGI Woodstock, GAPosts: 1,378Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

     

    Did it make you feel better to call him a despicable cheap freeloader because he thinks there are F2P games that offer the a similar experience to FFXIV for free? Read the last sentence. His point was that there isn't enough there for him to sub. That would imply that if they actually offered more than F2P games like Rift, he might be willing to sub. FFXIV just isn't that game.

     Yah these are the people I am speaking to in my posts as well. It's like they stick their fingers in their ears and scream louder than others to make their point without even bothering to read into what others are actually saying. Apparently variations in opinions are not welcomed by some. Makes you wonder why people go to discussion boards if they have not intentions of a discussion.

    RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  • vandal5627vandal5627 Jersey City, NJPosts: 586Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FlawSGI
    Originally posted by vandal5627
    Originally posted by observer
    Originally posted by FlawSGI

     I don't believe a payment model makes a game better or worse TBH. A lot of people appear to have the notion that F2P advocates are cheap and it is the $15 that they complain about, but if you actually stop attacking and listen to the arguments it's really about what they feel their money is worth and not the price of the sub. I don't like subs for the simple fact that few game have really been worth it to me. Then again, I detest the cash grabs that some F2P's use when making their cash shop decisions and limitations on gameplay. I'd rather pay a sub over the alternative.

     

    While I like the article, I don't buy that steady revenue = better planning and more content. It sounds like a great justification for having a sub, but I haven't seen that it equates to a better overall product. WoW, IMO, was an outstanding game for years, yet they have managed to butcher that game and their updates don't come out any faster or any better than other games I have played. I know this is a very subjective example but this is my opinion on why I don't see sub equating to a better product. I will say that FFXI had some of the best bang for their buck when it came to expansions though. 

    I agree with this.  That's what i was thinking when i read that interview.  He's trying to justify that a sub model is going to be a better product.  The problem with this argument though, is that there was a reason these MMOs lost players, and that's because it's not worth the value.

    When they create sub-par MMOs, and just clones in general, they should expect that players aren't going to stick around, which in turn means less money per month... which means a smaller staff... which means less content and few updates.  Swtor is the prime example.  Massive layoffs, and a half-assed "expansion".  It wasn't because of F2P though.  It was because of the game.

     He's not trying to justify a subscription model is going to be a better product, he's just saying with a subscription model, he can better forcast what he wants to do for future updates as well as staff, you can't do that in a BTP or FTP model because you can't predict your revenue easily.

     I can see that and can agree with it if this was what usually happened in the games I payed subs for..... but it hasn't been the case for me. I played FFXI and the content was good and the game seemed to put out content regularly enough, but other than that all of the other games I have subbed to didn't update to often nor did sub revinues guarantee me better quality of content than other games.

    I also wasn't saying he was claiming sub games made a better product, I was just pointing out, to those that latch onto this aspect alone and try to shoot down every other game that isn't a P2P game, that a games payment model in and of itself does not guarantee a better product nor more timely and better updates. It's the people on this site who champion the game due to its payment model that I was speaking to, not the interviewee. My stand is that I don't care for F2P, but I don't instantly bash one game and praise another on it's payment model alone like others have apparently done. I will say that FFXIV was fun from what I have experienced and I plan to support them for as long as I am entertained.

     I was replying to observer not at you, i get what you are saying.

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by FlawSGI
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

     

    Did it make you feel better to call him a despicable cheap freeloader because he thinks there are F2P games that offer the a similar experience to FFXIV for free? Read the last sentence. His point was that there isn't enough there for him to sub. That would imply that if they actually offered more than F2P games like Rift, he might be willing to sub. FFXIV just isn't that game.

     Yah these are the people I am speaking to in my posts as well. It's like they stick their fingers in their ears and scream louder than others to make their point without even bothering to read into what others are actually saying. Apparently variations in opinions are not welcomed by some. Makes you wonder why people go to discussion boards if they have not intentions of a discussion.

    I'll have a discussion with you about the game itself, but not whether or not the game is "worth it".  Products are worth what people are willing to pay for them, and what the producers of those products charge.

     

    It is not up to you to decide the value of someone's work.  This is not a god damn auction.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

    Not sure I'll play FFXIV:ARR when it goes live as a P2P. I just don't think it's "worth" a sub ($12/month since I don't think I have legacy is pretty cheap), but there are already F2P or B2Ps that does exactly what ARR offers (RIFT in particular). Plus FFXIV shut down once because it didn't "deliver". I think they'll swap to the F2P model within a year or two.

    The fact that it has great graphics and is a Final Fantasy MMO are not sufficient reasons for me to sub. Mind you, I've bought the FFXIV CE back when the game first launched, and also subbed for a few months when the game shifted again from F2P to P2P. I just don't feel that the state of the game today is really worth a sub when I look at what the current F2P market has to offer.

    I'm curious are you choosing to play Rift and other F2P titles because you think they do it better than ARR?

     

    Or are you choosing to play them because you are too cheap to pay $12/month for an MMORPG?  Because that is what it sounds like, if you simply like other games more then I apologize.  But it really does sound like you are just a freeloader who doesn't want to pay for his video game if he can get a similar knock off experience elsewhere.  Again if you think those games are better I apologize for making assumptions about you.

     

    You didn't say they were better though so I'm just looking for clarification on your reasoning here.  If it is really simply because other games are free, then I think it is a shame that people like you would throw your time and energy away over a measly $12/month for games that cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make and keep updated.  Being a free rider, and taking advantage of "whales" is pretty despicable if you ask me.  I don't see your value as a "customer".

    Did it make you feel better to call him a despicable cheap freeloader because he thinks there are F2P games that offer the a similar experience to FFXIV for free? Read the last sentence. His point was that there isn't enough there for him to sub. That would imply that if they actually offered more than F2P games like Rift, he might be willing to sub. FFXIV just isn't that game.

    Well that's your opinion, and I did say if he thought those games were better that is one thing, but choosing not to play something because you don't think the game is worth paying money for is pretty despicable I think.  It does make him a freeloader, and it does make him cheap. 

     

    What do you do for a living?  I guarantee you I can find someone cheaper to do it "similarly".  Maybe if you actually offered more (my opinion) I'd support you making your current wage but you don't.  So you deserve to work for whatever the most desperate person on the planet in your industry would be willing to work for and not a penny more.

    Choosing not to buy a game because you don't think it's worth it is despicable? How much deeper will you dig with this nonsense?

  • MadnessRealmMadnessRealm Montreal, QCPosts: 2,716Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

    Not sure I'll play FFXIV:ARR when it goes live as a P2P. I just don't think it's "worth" a sub ($12/month since I don't think I have legacy is pretty cheap), but there are already F2P or B2Ps that does exactly what ARR offers (RIFT in particular). Plus FFXIV shut down once because it didn't "deliver". I think they'll swap to the F2P model within a year or two.

    The fact that it has great graphics and is a Final Fantasy MMO are not sufficient reasons for me to sub. Mind you, I've bought the FFXIV CE back when the game first launched, and also subbed for a few months when the game shifted again from F2P to P2P. I just don't feel that the state of the game today is really worth a sub when I look at what the current F2P market has to offer.

    I'm curious are you choosing to play Rift and other F2P titles because you think they do it better than ARR?

     

    Or are you choosing to play them because you are too cheap to pay $12/month for an MMORPG?  Because that is what it sounds like, if you simply like other games more then I apologize.  But it really does sound like you are just a freeloader who doesn't want to pay for his video game if he can get a similar knock off experience elsewhere.  Again if you think those games are better I apologize for making assumptions about you.

     

    You didn't say they were better though so I'm just looking for clarification on your reasoning here.  If it is really simply because other games are free, then I think it is a shame that people like you would throw your time and energy away over a measly $12/month for games that cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make and keep updated.  Being a free rider, and taking advantage of "whales" is pretty despicable if you ask me.  I don't see your value as a "customer".

    The price is a non-issue for me. If I like the game, I'll pay whether it's P2P, B2P or F2P. Again, I did sub to FFXIV when it went back to P2P after it was F2P for a year, it's a non-issue for me.

    However, when I look at what ARR currently offers versus what F2Ps currently offers, I find that I can get my money's worth more on F2Ps than I would on ARR. Admittedly, I might not be making such statement if RIFT hadn't recently gone F2P, it just happens that ARR and RIFT shares a few features which I find RIFT to do better to some extent. Like the FATE system, it's a little dull in my experience compared to the Rifts in well...RIFT or even compared to the DEs in GW2.  The classes in ARR, albeit interesting (I quite liked the little gimmick that Thaumaturge have with Astral Fire/Umbral Ice for example) and visually attractive, they get a little dull fast because of the limited abilities (only 1 new skill every 6 levels or so), and if you want more skills you have to level up other classes (admittedly, 1.0 was like that as well). All in all, it just felt like it was missing a bit of variety.

    Plus I'm not really fond of this new direction for ARR. I quite liked FFXIV 1.0 after all the improvement it had gone through under Yoshida's direction. I also liked being able to roll crafter from the very beginning, and being able to change class without having to wait until I hit level 10, which doesn't take that long to reach, but the restriction is a bit of a bummer for me because I spent a long time in 1.0 as a dedicated crafter. I also don't like how quest-centric/quest-hub oriented the game has become. Admittedly, RIFT does that as well, but I've been able to ignore them completely and level up very easily through other activities (Instant Adventures, Dungeons, Rifts, Zone Events, PvP). In ARR, alternate forms of leveling seems less efficient compared to questing (at least in my experience) even with the chain kill EXP bonus and Leves, whereas in 1.0 grinding was rather efficient, and I would only do the story quests that appeared every 5 levels or so (+ GC quests starting LV.20 and up) and it was great, didn't feel like I was missing out on anything either.

    It's just the feeling ARR gives me, I don't quite like it as much in comparison to what I've been able to experience in other MMOs (or FFXIV 1.0). The things that bothers me with ARR are all very minor, but they add up together and just make the experience less enjoyable for me.

    ------
    Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

    Not sure I'll play FFXIV:ARR when it goes live as a P2P. I just don't think it's "worth" a sub ($12/month since I don't think I have legacy is pretty cheap), but there are already F2P or B2Ps that does exactly what ARR offers (RIFT in particular). Plus FFXIV shut down once because it didn't "deliver". I think they'll swap to the F2P model within a year or two.

    The fact that it has great graphics and is a Final Fantasy MMO are not sufficient reasons for me to sub. Mind you, I've bought the FFXIV CE back when the game first launched, and also subbed for a few months when the game shifted again from F2P to P2P. I just don't feel that the state of the game today is really worth a sub when I look at what the current F2P market has to offer.

    I'm curious are you choosing to play Rift and other F2P titles because you think they do it better than ARR?

     

    Or are you choosing to play them because you are too cheap to pay $12/month for an MMORPG?  Because that is what it sounds like, if you simply like other games more then I apologize.  But it really does sound like you are just a freeloader who doesn't want to pay for his video game if he can get a similar knock off experience elsewhere.  Again if you think those games are better I apologize for making assumptions about you.

     

    You didn't say they were better though so I'm just looking for clarification on your reasoning here.  If it is really simply because other games are free, then I think it is a shame that people like you would throw your time and energy away over a measly $12/month for games that cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make and keep updated.  Being a free rider, and taking advantage of "whales" is pretty despicable if you ask me.  I don't see your value as a "customer".

    Did it make you feel better to call him a despicable cheap freeloader because he thinks there are F2P games that offer the a similar experience to FFXIV for free? Read the last sentence. His point was that there isn't enough there for him to sub. That would imply that if they actually offered more than F2P games like Rift, he might be willing to sub. FFXIV just isn't that game.

    Well that's your opinion, and I did say if he thought those games were better that is one thing, but choosing not to play something because you don't think the game is worth paying money for is pretty despicable I think.  It does make him a freeloader, and it does make him cheap. 

     

    What do you do for a living?  I guarantee you I can find someone cheaper to do it "similarly".  Maybe if you actually offered more (my opinion) I'd support you making your current wage but you don't.  So you deserve to work for whatever the most desperate person on the planet in your industry would be willing to work for and not a penny more.

    Choosing not to buy a game because you don't think it's worth it is despicable? How much deeper will you dig with this nonsense?

    You can choose to do whatever you want, no one is forcing you to buy it.  But don't tell people that you DESERVE something for nothing.  Besides those F2P games you play, they aren't free for everyone.   [mod edit]

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by MadnessRealm

    Not sure I'll play FFXIV:ARR when it goes live as a P2P. I just don't think it's "worth" a sub ($12/month since I don't think I have legacy is pretty cheap), but there are already F2P or B2Ps that does exactly what ARR offers (RIFT in particular). Plus FFXIV shut down once because it didn't "deliver". I think they'll swap to the F2P model within a year or two.

    The fact that it has great graphics and is a Final Fantasy MMO are not sufficient reasons for me to sub. Mind you, I've bought the FFXIV CE back when the game first launched, and also subbed for a few months when the game shifted again from F2P to P2P. I just don't feel that the state of the game today is really worth a sub when I look at what the current F2P market has to offer.

    I'm curious are you choosing to play Rift and other F2P titles because you think they do it better than ARR?

     

    Or are you choosing to play them because you are too cheap to pay $12/month for an MMORPG?  Because that is what it sounds like, if you simply like other games more then I apologize.  But it really does sound like you are just a freeloader who doesn't want to pay for his video game if he can get a similar knock off experience elsewhere.  Again if you think those games are better I apologize for making assumptions about you.

     

    You didn't say they were better though so I'm just looking for clarification on your reasoning here.  If it is really simply because other games are free, then I think it is a shame that people like you would throw your time and energy away over a measly $12/month for games that cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make and keep updated.  Being a free rider, and taking advantage of "whales" is pretty despicable if you ask me.  I don't see your value as a "customer".

    The price is a non-issue for me. If I like the game, I'll pay whether it's P2P, B2P or F2P. Again, I did sub to FFXIV when it went back to P2P after it was F2P for a year, it's a non-issue for me.

    However, when I look at what ARR currently offers versus what F2Ps currently offers, I find that I can get my money's worth more on F2Ps than I would on ARR. Admittedly, I might not be making such statement if RIFT hadn't recently gone F2P, it just happens that ARR and RIFT shares a few features which I find RIFT to do better to some extent. Like the FATE system, it's a little dull in my experience compared to the Rifts in well...RIFT or even compared to the DEs in GW2.  The classes in ARR, albeit interesting (I quite liked the little gimmick that Thaumaturge have with Astral Fire/Umbral Ice for example) and visually attractive, they get a little dull fast because of the limited abilities (only 1 new skill every 6 levels or so), and if you want more skills you have to level up other classes (admittedly, 1.0 was like that as well). All in all, it just felt like it was missing a bit of variety.

    Plus I'm not really fond of this new direction for ARR. I quite liked FFXIV 1.0 after all the improvement it had gone through under Yoshida's direction. I also liked being able to roll crafter from the very beginning, and being able to change class without having to wait until I hit level 10, which doesn't take that long to reach, but the restriction is a bit of a bummer for me because I spent a long time in 1.0 as a dedicated crafter. I also don't like how quest-centric/quest-hub oriented the game has become. Admittedly, RIFT does that as well, but I've been able to ignore them completely and level up very easily through other activities (Instant Adventures, Dungeons, Rifts, Zone Events, PvP). In ARR, alternate forms of leveling seems less efficient compared to questing (at least in my experience) even with the chain kill EXP bonus and Leves, whereas in 1.0 grinding was rather efficient, and I would only do the story quests that appeared every 5 levels or so (+ GC quests starting LV.20 and up) and it was great, didn't feel like I was missing out on anything either.

    It's just the feeling ARR gives me, I don't quite like it as much in comparison to what I've been able to experience in other MMOs (or FFXIV 1.0). The things that bothers me with ARR are all very minor, but they add up together and just make the experience less enjoyable for me.

     

     

    See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

     

    Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

     

    You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

  • EtherignisEtherignis philadelphia, PAPosts: 246Member
    I hope this game stay p2p.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Murugan

    See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

     

    Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

     

    You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

    Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after its releases.

  • RaxeonRaxeon cedar falls, IAPosts: 2,088Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan

    See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

     

    Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

     

    You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

    Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after its releases.

    realm reborn is a much ebtter game than rift rift bores me to tears the combat is ugh if you know what i mean plus i realyl dislike the gfx in it i dont like the art style. ANd realm reborn will be offering more than rift ever will

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan

    See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

     

    Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

     

    You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

    Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after it releases.

    [mod edit] I'm not going to retreat from that until someone can argue otherwise (I realize some people pay subscriptions, and some games offer content packages instead of in-game advantages or unique cash shop items, but that isn't really F2P is it?).

     

    [mod edit]

     

    I pay a subscription for content that I enjoy, when a game stops delivering that I quit.  I suppose I would play a B2P game if they offered content packages that I thought were fairly priced, but I don't see any games even attempting that model.  All I see are scams and subscription MMO's.

     

    I have no respect for f2p players or MMO's, what I can respect is that people have differences of opinion and I don't try to force my choice of game on others.[mod edit]

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Raxeon
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan

    See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

     

    Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

     

    You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

    Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after its releases.

    realm reborn is a much ebtter game than rift rift bores me to tears the combat is ugh if you know what i mean plus i realyl dislike the gfx in it i dont like the art style. ANd realm reborn will be offering more than rift ever will

    Rift is a much better game than Realm Reborn. Realm Reborn bores me to tears. The combat is just... ugh if you know what I mean. Plus I really dislike the cutesy childish, rainbow happy place, ostrich riding art style. And Rift already offers more than Realm Reborn ever will.

  • SnarkRitterSnarkRitter TPHCMPosts: 316Member
    Originally posted by danwest58

    Sorry but no FFXIV is different in many aspects than other MMOs.  First its not a Single Player Online game like many MMOs are right now.  Yes you can solo to 50 however its the most inefficient way of leveling grouping being the more efficient way.  Second SE did not take investors money to rebuild FFXIV nor did the game stay F2P the first time around.  The game SHUT DOWN and SE rebuild the game from the ground up using its own money so they have NO ONE to pay back besides themselves.  Sorry but SE has already said 300K to 1 Million users is all it needs, if they make the money back on the game in a year they are good with that, they will never be forced to pay someone else back so their hand gets forced to go F2P.  O yea and SE is not trying to be the next WoW its trying to replace FFXI with just a newer up to date FF game.  

    You want to do a little Math here.  I am willing to bet the game revamp cost about 64 Million most likely less.

    at 300K subs at 12.99 a month you get 3,897,000 per month

    If you divide 64 Million by 3,897,000 is 16.422 so thats 17 months and the game is paid off.  Now It is likely the game rebuild cost much less, and there will be more than 300K players.  The game has 700K beta apps and growing each day.  If they hold 500K to 700K players consistently at the lower per month rate that is still a lot of money per month.  Not having to pay off stakeholders or investors will keep them from going F2P.  

    Your optimism put a smile on my face, a sarcastic smile, unfortunately. 

    You think that leveling through grouping is a great way to bolster the community feeling thereby keeping people subscribed? Believe it or not, that's actually not that great of a way to keep subscribers,have your ever looked at FF XI subscriber chart? Did you see a nose dive when WoW got released almost never got back up to it's peak again? Believe it or not, people like to solo and prefer solo leveling over group leveling (case example: GW2,  group leveling is far more efficient than solo leveling, not to mention that the whole game is tailored for group play, yet people still prefer to solo) for multiple reasons. And frankly the vast majority of people will quit if they don't find the game fun or the subscription fee isn't worth it, else you wouldn't see guilds disbanding in MMORPGs because their members all quit the game .I know, because i've been to multiple guilds in different games, we were all great friends to each other, but when we don't find the game fun anymore we just quit this game and move to other game.

    In FF XIV if solo leveling is inefficient it will feel too much of a grind and many will just leave because, well, they can't be **** to form a group. This problem will become far worse 6 months after launch (or re-launch, if you want to call it), when most people will be at max level and there'll be far fewer leveling players, and it will only get worse.

    The part about subscribers number only show how naive and inexperience about MMORPGs you are. First you naively assumed that they'll retain 500k-700k numbers. MMORPGs are extremely lucky if they retain 50% of their subscribers after 3 months, and they're also extremely lucky if half the people who applied for beta tests actually buy the game at launch. IIRC, Blizzard said that 1 out of 20 people who try WoW trial buy the game EVE the only growing major P2P MMORPG, that number is 1 out of 25. So realistically, I believe we're looking at 200k active subscribers for FF XIV, probably less after a year.

    And finally, you also didn't factor in ongoing development and maintainance cost.

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan

    See?  He answered my question, and guess what I'm not going to insult him.  He likes Rift better, I don't.  He doesn't like ARR enough to buy it.  That is completely fair, I hardly want people to play a game they don't like that ruins the experience for everyone.

     

    Of course in F2P games (like GW2, Tera, well any F2P game I've played at least) people play them even though they dislike them and then they trash the game in chat all day long like it is a sport.  That is bad for everyone, so I'm glad that people who don't think this game is worth paying for won't be playing it.

     

    You are not despicable sir for your opinions on a game I enjoy, and thank you very much for explaining your reasoning further than "$12/month" isn't worth it anymore in this day and age.

    Wow, look at that retreat. I agree with that poster. I think that FFXIV doesn't offer anything better than Rift and therefor the sub is asking too much for what you get. The only reason I'd even consider the game is because of my nostalgia for the series, but there is just too much on the market that is more worth my time than this game. EVE is a great example of a game that is worth paying for in my opinion. FFXIV is not. I'll be interested to see what people are saying about it 3 months after it releases.

    What retreat, I think people who advocate for F2P are either freeloaders are cheaters, I'm not going to retreat from that until someone can argue otherwise (I realize some people pay subscriptions, and some games offer content packages instead of in-game advantages or unique cash shop items, but that isn't really F2P is it?).

     

    I don't really care what other people do, I just want this game going f2p because if it does I will be forced to quit as I am not A. a cheater, B. a Freeloader, or C. a Dupe who pays a subscription for other people to play with him.

     

    I pay a subscription for content that I enjoy, when a game stops delivering that I quit.  I suppose I would play a B2P game if they offered content packages that I thought were fairly priced, but I don't see any games even attempting that model.  All I see are scams and subscription MMO's.

     

    I have no respect for f2p players or MMO's, what I can respect is that people have differences of opinion and I don't try to force my choice of game on others.  That just doesn't stop you F2P people from coming to my games and trying to ruin them because you people can't respect others.

    Entitlement. This isn't your game.

    Sure it is, it is a game I play and I pay for.  You don't want to do either, so how about you leave this discussion and I won't come to the garbage you play and ask the developers to start making you pay for your entertainment instead of freeloading off of others.

  • Effin_RabbitEffin_Rabbit Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 772Member Uncommon

    I think this game is primarily made for the FF crowd and not necessarily the mmorpg crowd. I played it for a couple hours and just couldnt see the allure but at the same time could recognize that if I were a FF fan id probably feel a lot differently about the whole experience.

    To me it plays identically to 99% of the rest of the themeparks out there just dressed like FF. It reminds me of what SWTOR is to KOTOR with a few sprinkles on top (FATES=public quests/rifts, mix-up class system). I cant see it staying P2P for long and it wouldnt be surprised if they already had a B2P or F2P plan ready for when that change comes.

  • SyrusSyiSyrusSyi Asheville, NCPosts: 366Member
    This was a really enjoyable article to read. I really like how they are taking their time to finish the game rather then rushing to get it out the doors again.

    Playing: Single player games |


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    Played: Guild Wars | Diablo 3 |The War Z | Runescape |World of Warcraft |Combat Arms |Perfect World | Rift | Fiesta | DC universe online | Aion | Age of Conan |Allods | Vindictus | The Secret World | Forge | Battle of the Immortals | Global Agenda| Cabal Online | Tera |

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member
    Originally posted by Dzone

    Just think how much content will end up getting if the dev's do have a steady income. That is endless hours of stuff to do ingame. Plus if you really get into it and do nothing else, look how much money you would save on gas, going to clubs, alot of stuff irl cost alot more than 15$ a month. With sub base mmo isn't really that expensive of a hobby.

     

    Now ingame since everyone is paying equally, that means everyone has 100% access to the game. Everyone will be on the same page as everyone else. Lets say you play a game like lotro and your group wants to go to a higher level map, but wait your ftp, you havta suck it up and tell them that you dont have access to that map and can't go. That's just one example of how the ftp modul limit's peaple from paying ones.

     

    There could be restrictions ingame though, like say you need to do part 1 of a quest, to beable to continue onto part 2, or maybe need to get an item to access an area. That could be posible, but at least all of that is achieved ingame. There will be no cash shop in ffxiv arr, everything you get will be earned ingame. No cash shop to break immersion in this game.

     

    That is why ffxi was for suceesfull for so long, because over the years SE added so much content to do that you always had something to do. Everyone was completly immersed in that game, because there was no real life distraction, aka cash shops.

     

    That's why i can see myself playing ffxiv arr for a very long time to come, because over time with the steady money for them, all that content will continue and no cash shop distration, is a huge plus for me.

     

    Purely based on assumption.  I've heard the P2P equates to more rich content and say BS on.  Content will be based on the company itself and not it's payment model.  ANet regulary provides good content while numerous P2P MMOs provide pretty stagnant content or how it took so long for so little.  WoW's Crusader Pavilion for one.  I have yet to see an MMO company that justifies a continuous sub based on content.

    But anyways everyone should have known that the P2P model was a given, I mean they charged you based on how many characters you have (3 bucks a month addition for each char past the 1st).

    LOTRO is a horrid comparison.  While I never played LOTRO seriously but I have played DDO extensively and rarely if ever do I ever come across someone who joins and doesn't have access to the area (the LFM is very good in regards that it will highlight which groups content you can't play).

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by furbans
    Originally posted by Dzone

    Just think how much content will end up getting if the dev's do have a steady income. That is endless hours of stuff to do ingame. Plus if you really get into it and do nothing else, look how much money you would save on gas, going to clubs, alot of stuff irl cost alot more than 15$ a month. With sub base mmo isn't really that expensive of a hobby.

     

    Now ingame since everyone is paying equally, that means everyone has 100% access to the game. Everyone will be on the same page as everyone else. Lets say you play a game like lotro and your group wants to go to a higher level map, but wait your ftp, you havta suck it up and tell them that you dont have access to that map and can't go. That's just one example of how the ftp modul limit's peaple from paying ones.

     

    There could be restrictions ingame though, like say you need to do part 1 of a quest, to beable to continue onto part 2, or maybe need to get an item to access an area. That could be posible, but at least all of that is achieved ingame. There will be no cash shop in ffxiv arr, everything you get will be earned ingame. No cash shop to break immersion in this game.

     

    That is why ffxi was for suceesfull for so long, because over the years SE added so much content to do that you always had something to do. Everyone was completly immersed in that game, because there was no real life distraction, aka cash shops.

     

    That's why i can see myself playing ffxiv arr for a very long time to come, because over time with the steady money for them, all that content will continue and no cash shop distration, is a huge plus for me.

     

    Purely based on assumption.  I've heard the P2P equates to more rich content and say BS on.  Content will be based on the company itself and not it's payment model.  ANet regulary provides good content while numerous P2P MMOs provide pretty stagnant content or how it took so long for so little.  WoW's Crusader Pavilion for one.  I have yet to see an MMO company that justifies a continuous sub based on content.

    But anyways everyone should have known that the P2P model was a given, I mean they charged you based on how many characters you have (3 bucks a month addition for each char past the 1st).

    LOTRO is a horrid comparison.  While I never played LOTRO seriously but I have played DDO extensively and rarely if ever do I ever come across someone who joins and doesn't have access to the area (the LFM is very good in regards that it will highlight which groups content you can't play).

    Are you talking about LFM in LOTRO?  I didn't know it had a duty finder, FFXIV won't be F2P so it having a duty finder is irrelevant.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by colddog04

    Entitlement. This isn't your game.

    Sure it is, it is a game I play and I pay for.  You don't want to do either, so how about you leave this discussion and I won't come to the garbage you play and ask the developers to start making you pay for your entertainment instead of freeloading off of others.

    What are you even talking about? I'm subbed to two games right now.

     

    I like that you're doubling down on your entitlement though. I'm sorry to be the one to have to let you know, but no matter how much you pay sqeenix, you will never have control over which direction they decide to take the game. This is also not your forum and you do not own this thread and do not have rights on the discussion. If someone says something that you don't like about your precious, it is usually frowned upon to personally attack them. However, in the case that you can't help yourself, be aware that people can recognize when you are getting extremely emotional. For instance, without actually knowing what I play, how could you form an opinion about whether or not it was garbage? 

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SnarkRitter
    Originally posted by danwest58

    Sorry but no FFXIV is different in many aspects than other MMOs.  First its not a Single Player Online game like many MMOs are right now.  Yes you can solo to 50 however its the most inefficient way of leveling grouping being the more efficient way.  Second SE did not take investors money to rebuild FFXIV nor did the game stay F2P the first time around.  The game SHUT DOWN and SE rebuild the game from the ground up using its own money so they have NO ONE to pay back besides themselves.  Sorry but SE has already said 300K to 1 Million users is all it needs, if they make the money back on the game in a year they are good with that, they will never be forced to pay someone else back so their hand gets forced to go F2P.  O yea and SE is not trying to be the next WoW its trying to replace FFXI with just a newer up to date FF game.  

    You want to do a little Math here.  I am willing to bet the game revamp cost about 64 Million most likely less.

    at 300K subs at 12.99 a month you get 3,897,000 per month

    If you divide 64 Million by 3,897,000 is 16.422 so thats 17 months and the game is paid off.  Now It is likely the game rebuild cost much less, and there will be more than 300K players.  The game has 700K beta apps and growing each day.  If they hold 500K to 700K players consistently at the lower per month rate that is still a lot of money per month.  Not having to pay off stakeholders or investors will keep them from going F2P.  

    Your optimism put a smile on my face, a sarcastic smile, unfortunately. 

    You think that leveling through grouping is a great way to bolster the community feeling thereby keeping people subscribed? Believe it or not, that's actually not that great of a way to keep subscribers,have your ever looked at FF XI subscriber chart? Did you see a nose dive when WoW got released almost never got back up to it's peak again? Believe it or not, people like to solo and prefer solo leveling over group leveling (case example: GW2,  group leveling is far more efficient than solo leveling, not to mention that the whole game is tailored for group play, yet people still prefer to solo) for multiple reasons. And frankly the vast majority of people will quit if they don't find the game fun or the subscription fee isn't worth it, else you wouldn't see guilds disbanding in MMORPGs because their members all quit the game .I know, because i've been to multiple guilds in different games, we were all great friends to each other, but when we don't find the game fun anymore we just quit this game and move to other game.

    In FF XIV if solo leveling is inefficient it will feel too much of a grind and many will just leave because, well, they can't be **** to form a group. This problem will become far worse 6 months after launch (or re-launch, if you want to call it), when most people will be at max level and there'll be far fewer leveling players, and it will only get worse.

    The part about subscribers number only show how naive and inexperience about MMORPGs you are. First you naively assumed that they'll retain 500k-700k numbers. MMORPGs are extremely lucky if they retain 50% of their subscribers after 3 months, and they're also extremely lucky if half the people who applied for beta tests actually buy the game at launch. IIRC, Blizzard said that 1 out of 20 people who try WoW trial buy the game EVE the only growing major P2P MMORPG, that number is 1 out of 25. So realistically, I believe we're looking at 200k active subscribers for FF XIV, probably less after a year.

    And finally, you also didn't factor in ongoing development and maintainance cost.

    I am done talking to people like you because you just want to sit here and force your will onto other people in a forum.  Guess what you have your opinion I have mine.  This game is and will be one of the better MMOs in the past 7 years.  Yeas BECAUSE the game is Group Friendly VS SOLO 100% of the time.  Why do you think SWTOR, RIFT, TERA, and countless other games failed.  BECAUSE they were nothing but gloried Single Player Games.  This Game will last now I am done talking to someone who just wants to ramble on negatively just to ramble negatively.  

    image

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by colddog04

    Entitlement. This isn't your game.

    Sure it is, it is a game I play and I pay for.  You don't want to do either, so how about you leave this discussion and I won't come to the garbage you play and ask the developers to start making you pay for your entertainment instead of freeloading off of others.

    What are you even talking about? I'm subbed to two games right now.

     

    I like that you're doubling down on your entitlement though. I'm sorry to be the one to have to let you know, but no matter how much you pay sqeenix, you will never have control over which direction they decide to take the game. This is also not your forum and you do not own this thread and do not have rights on the discussion. If someone says something that you don't like about your precious, it is usually frowned upon to personally attack them. However, in the case that you can't help yourself, be aware that people can recognize when you are getting extremely emotional. For instance, without actually knowing what I play, how could you form an opinion about whether or not it was garbage? 

    I don't care what you do, you came here trolling the game about how it wasn't worth a sub and blah blah blah f2p is great.  If you think you are being misrepresented that is your problem.  You never said "I pay 2 subs" or "I support the P2P model" you just posted in defense of f2p and I responded to you.

     

    As for my entitlement you are right, this is what I will do if the game goes f2p.  I will quit, and I won't play another title from SE until they win back my trust that they aren't going to pull another bait and switch on me again.  I already said this though, so you saying I'm "entitled" is really just water off of my back.  I'm not entitled at all, I actually believe people should charge what they want for their work, and don't think I deserve anything because of my "entitlement".

     

    So how am I entitled?  Because I would be upset if it turns out that Yoshida and Square Enix were downright lying to me to get my money while planning to go F2P like Trion did with Rift (they knew it was going to go F2P and still sold an expansion to their subscribing players and encouraged others to come back)?  Unless the entitlement you are referring to is not wishing to be lied to and purposefully misled for profit.  But luckily my bank doesn't agree that this is "baseless entitltement" and will allow me to pursue a charge back if SE ever tries something like that without first refunding my subscription.  Fraud is Fraud.

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 981Member Uncommon

    colddog04

    If you dont like the game you dont need to buy it or pay for a subscription.  Sitting here and talking shit about a game just to do it and hope it goes F2P so you can play is disrespectful of the developers, and disrespectful of the community that does not want it F2P.  Just the same as the people on the beta forums going from 2 F2P post to 6 in a matter of a few minutes to shove it down peoples throats that the game NEEDS TO BE F2P FOR THEM.  Well Sorry Yoshi-P said its P2P, you have two choices pay to play or play something else.  Stop disrespecting other people.  

    image

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus BaatorPosts: 1,112Member Uncommon

    I have played many f2p games and have enjoyed b2p but I would very much like for once to play a p2p game with NO CASH SHOP.

     

    I have seen too many f2p game with cash shop really gouge their clients recently and offer too  many p2w items. Will be nice to try a game with none of that poop.

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