The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.
I know it's not the case for everyone, I know some just get agitated by players who spam DPS meters all day, but then again; if you take a look at the games that do have it, you don't even see it that much anymore anyways. Out of the past 6 or so months since I have been back to WoW, I have seen:
I'm sure a lot of people would love to see some evidence of that. I could quite as easily argue that the majority of people defending having DPS meters are wannabe elitist jerks that would hate to be deprived of a tool to put other players down... it works both ways.
My hating DPS meters has little to do with how much actual DPS anyone is doing and more to do with it encouraging every player to play for themself only and ignore teamwork if it helps them do more damage. I've seen it happen countless times and those players would not be obsessing over their damage so much if there wasn't such an easy way to tally it.
Okay, for starters, if you're going to quote and reply to someone, don't chop off half of their quote which responds directly to your question. I went ahead and fixed that for you, but that's just dumb. Second, you're absolutely 1000000000% accurate, many people who use DPS meters are elitists, what does that have to do with people fearing DPS meters because they aren't great players? That's like saying "I can't eat my dinner because I drew a smiley face on a sticky note." <-- Makes sense, right?
If I am in a group of 25 people, and 5 of those people are preventing us from getting a boss down, I absolutely want to know who needs to be replaced. If your sense of fun is wiping on the same boss day in, day out, never making any progress, then more power to you.
You made a completely unsubstantiated assertion, I made one in return. That was the point.
FYI you could just as easily have 5 people wiping your raid due to tunnel vision on the DPS meter causing them to endanger the group. I've seen it happen enough times to know it's more of an issue; you don't NEED the meter to know who isn't pulling their weight, it's usually blindingly obvious.
I actually made a statement of opinion based on my last 13 years of gaming experience.
Sure, you could absolutely have someone wipe the group by going tunnel vision. That's not what this forum thread is about though, if you want to start a discussion about players who tunnel vision, please go ahead and start a new thread for that and I will gladly contribute. This thread however, is about the damage meters.
The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.
I know it's not the case for everyone, I know some just get agitated by players who spam DPS meters all day, but then again; if you take a look at the games that do have it, you don't even see it that much anymore anyways. Out of the past 6 or so months since I have been back to WoW, I have seen:
I'm sure a lot of people would love to see some evidence of that. I could quite as easily argue that the majority of people defending having DPS meters are wannabe elitist jerks that would hate to be deprived of a tool to put other players down... it works both ways.
My hating DPS meters has little to do with how much actual DPS anyone is doing and more to do with it encouraging every player to play for themself only and ignore teamwork if it helps them do more damage. I've seen it happen countless times and those players would not be obsessing over their damage so much if there wasn't such an easy way to tally it.
Okay, for starters, if you're going to quote and reply to someone, don't chop off half of their quote which responds directly to your question. I went ahead and fixed that for you, but that's just dumb. Second, you're absolutely 1000000000% accurate, many people who use DPS meters are elitists, what does that have to do with people fearing DPS meters because they aren't great players? That's like saying "I can't eat my dinner because I drew a smiley face on a sticky note." <-- Makes sense, right?
If I am in a group of 25 people, and 5 of those people are preventing us from getting a boss down, I absolutely want to know who needs to be replaced. If your sense of fun is wiping on the same boss day in, day out, never making any progress, then more power to you.
You made a completely unsubstantiated assertion, I made one in return. That was the point.
FYI you could just as easily have 5 people wiping your raid due to tunnel vision on the DPS meter causing them to endanger the group. I've seen it happen enough times to know it's more of an issue; you don't NEED the meter to know who isn't pulling their weight, it's usually blindingly obvious.
seems you're just describing a bad player, not necessarily someone obsessed with dps. ive known those types, blown everything in the first 20 seconds, you see their damage skyrocket, then die to the first boss mechanic...usually cry about not getting a heal.
that sort would be dieing with or without a dps meter to 'distract' them. luckily in my gamer life most of the best dpsers ive seen were also good at the game they played, and didnt die unless it was a wipe anyway... and yeah, some of them liked to brag at times.
but the blindingly obvious part at the end, yeah it is sometimes. but how do you broach it, without evidence? you bring it up, someone says 'im doing great'...you have nothing to refute them. of course show them a parser and they probably get huffy about the fact you use a parser.
in the end, if they do allow them, you could always 'ban' them from whatever guild you create.
Originally posted by Carnicide Thanks for posting this, makes me really happy there will be Mods. To me that's what really separated WoW from other MMOs. I love having Mods for games AND DPS meters. I know the sensitive types hate this, but most of us like it, so deal with it. I'm also sick of the said "grown ups" stating they have a life and a job and bills in such that just want to enjoy the game. I work full time go to school full time for engineering, and work out. Oh and I have a girl friend oh my! Yet still I make time for MMOs and I like DPS meters shocking isn't it...... Jesus lay off this "I have a life crap" it's old.
Hi there!
Perhaps you're mistaking the different priorities of the "grown ups" and yourself? Maybe you like to excel at your class, learn the best and most efficient rotations, etc. Others may just want to log in rather than read class guides. It doesn't meant they're better/worse... Just different. That's the beauty of life - everyone's different. People play MMOs for a vast variety of reasons.
Also, I put the grown ups tag in quotes. I hate when people play the age card, on either end of the spectrum.
In WoW I found the healing meter to be helpful so I could see when I was overhealing. I am unsure how I'd heal now even in WoW without some of the mods/add ons.
I remember some rogue in vanilla posting the DPS meter after every boss fight. At least it lent to conversation rather than current WoW instances. Last night the only words muttered were "hey dk, u can't stand in shit."
What I infer and gather from the OP is that he doesn't want some douche canoe neglecting his role in the group just to top the DPS meters.
PS. You don't need to explain the happy balance you've struck with RL and WOW to defend your affinity to a damage meter on mods. It's ok that you like them, and would still be ok if you didn't win at RL while watching the DPS meter.
The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.
I know it's not the case for everyone, I know some just get agitated by players who spam DPS meters all day, but then again; if you take a look at the games that do have it, you don't even see it that much anymore anyways. Out of the past 6 or so months since I have been back to WoW, I have seen:
I'm sure a lot of people would love to see some evidence of that. I could quite as easily argue that the majority of people defending having DPS meters are wannabe elitist jerks that would hate to be deprived of a tool to put other players down... it works both ways.
My hating DPS meters has little to do with how much actual DPS anyone is doing and more to do with it encouraging every player to play for themself only and ignore teamwork if it helps them do more damage. I've seen it happen countless times and those players would not be obsessing over their damage so much if there wasn't such an easy way to tally it.
Okay, for starters, if you're going to quote and reply to someone, don't chop off half of their quote which responds directly to your question. I went ahead and fixed that for you, but that's just dumb. Second, you're absolutely 1000000000% accurate, many people who use DPS meters are elitists, what does that have to do with people fearing DPS meters because they aren't great players? That's like saying "I can't eat my dinner because I drew a smiley face on a sticky note." <-- Makes sense, right?
If I am in a group of 25 people, and 5 of those people are preventing us from getting a boss down, I absolutely want to know who needs to be replaced. If your sense of fun is wiping on the same boss day in, day out, never making any progress, then more power to you.
You made a completely unsubstantiated assertion, I made one in return. That was the point.
FYI you could just as easily have 5 people wiping your raid due to tunnel vision on the DPS meter causing them to endanger the group. I've seen it happen enough times to know it's more of an issue; you don't NEED the meter to know who isn't pulling their weight, it's usually blindingly obvious.
I'd say it's usually not obvious who is doing poor damage at all in most games. In the 25 man setting described, where 15 or so players are damage dealers, it can be downright impossible to pinpoint who the weak damage links are without a tool like damage meters. All you would be able to identify would be that your damage, as a group, is lacking.
On the other hand, it's usually significantly easier to identify players who fail to execute some external mechanic, such as failing to move out of an aoe attack area or poison, or failing to pull a lever at the right time.
There are pros and cons to damage meters, for sure. Let's not willingly be oblivious to their pros.
This thread has really derailed from where it started initially and we know meters will be coming in some form or fashion.
I stand by my assertion that a threat meter serves as a much more useful tool comparatively.
But I have little doubt that DPS meters will show themselves as well... And get posted by those poor souls that actually think that a DPS recap on content that isn't timed matters.
At the very least, this thread has highlighted to those fans of it that not everyone cares to see it and why.
Please exercise some consideration in it's use. Perhaps ask if the group is cool with getting the information posted.
I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and hopefully mods are off the table entirely. A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.
...
Agree fully with you. One more reason i love so much Swtor fp and other end game content.
Guns don't kill people and meters don't kill a game.
I honestly cannot see a WoW community transporting itself to FFXIV.
Best statement yet....
You got to be fucking kidding us. The WoW community is the Hallmark of the Internet. If it is on the web it is going to have ass-hats. If you give ass-hats a way to target people they will.
Originally posted by itsTort The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.
LOL! What a load. Ive never once had a problem with DPS yet I absolutely hate the drama that tool brings to PuGs especially. Every now and then you get some douche who starts harassing someone else not for 90% not for 10%, nor for 5%! Worst part? The run was going fine, no deaths, no wipes, until he opened his mouth. Many times by some dbag tank who everyone sides with because its another 20 minutes of queue time if he leaves. Bringing negativity to the entire group, wasting time that could be better spent by STFU and playing through.
So cut the crap. Maybe you only start your whining at -90% but most dont. Most not only do it at a much lower number but they do it in comparison to their own, to what they subjectively think someone elses DPS should be. Unless you'd like to link a developers reveal on what an expected minimum expected DPS is (which they designed the fight to be) on a boss on a class by class break down, there is no objective minimum DPS. The only time that tool is even REALLY necessary (and I say that lightly) is in Raids and personal use. Something that SE can easily limit in game to prevent the harassment that comes with it, at least with PuGs where its most common.
Originally posted by itsTort As a very avid raider of WoW, TERA, AoC, Warhammer, etc, and knowing about AF armors/raids/etc in FF11, I really hope that there will be some type of DPS meter. I mean, I know that there will be a DPS parser, but I would be hoping for an in game add-on, to prevent alt-tabbing. I know many people just flat out don't care about how well they do, but I personally like to watch as I improve. I'm not sure why you would wish away a 100% optional feature, that affects you in no way what so ever, except, to show you if you are doing something wrong or not.
Its funny how with all your super awesome extensive experiences with MMO's and raiding youre still so eager for a tool that only actually shows a fraction of what makes a good player. Not surprising though, as its common knowledge that this over dependence on DPS meters has people thinking that the only thing that matters now is what that "tool" says.
People who want them like to compete and people who dont want them are most likely casual gamers who don't like to compete. It is what it is. But, don't think all mod users only care about having the HIGHEST DPS or HEALS.
Honestly, i think it is more impressive to have high DPS and be alive at the end of the fight, than have the HIGHEST dps and die mid fight. Don't assume that every mod user just facerolls and don't pay attention to surroundings, because that is not true.
Mods can show who can dish out the highest DPS and HEALS and still be able to mind their surroundings are the true ELITE players. IMO.
Originally posted by itsTort The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.
LOL! What a load. Ive never once had a problem with DPS yet I absolutely hate the drama that tool brings to PuGs especially. Every now and then you get some douche who starts harassing someone else not for 90% not for 10%, nor for 5%! Worst part? The run was going fine, no deaths, no wipes, until he opened his mouth. Many times by some dbag tank who everyone sides with because its another 20 minutes of queue time if he leaves. Bringing negativity to the entire group, wasting time that could be better spent by STFU and playing through.
So cut the crap. Maybe you only start your whining at -90% but most dont. Most not only do it at a much lower number but they do it in comparison to their own, to what they subjectively think someone elses DPS should be. Unless you'd like to link a developers reveal on what an expected minimum expected DPS is (which they designed the fight to be) on a boss on a class by class break down, there is no objective minimum DPS. The only time that tool is even REALLY necessary (and I say that lightly) is in Raids and personal use. Something that SE can easily limit in game to prevent the harassment that comes with it, at least with PuGs where its most common.
You're assertion that "most don't" is udder bullshit, or you just play with terrible people (not terrible players, terrible people). In my reasonably long time in playing MMOs, mainly EQ2 since launch, I have been in 3 groups where a person has been kicked based off of his performance on a parser. 1 of them was after wiping 3 times to the first boss of a dungeon, 1 of them was because he was only autoattacking, and 1 of them I kicked because he was ninja afking and fought in less than half of the fights and we were having a rough time because of it.
I'm not sure what game you're describing here (WoW I'm sure) but that is a community issue, not an issue with DPS meters. These people would be assholes in some other way if they didn't have DPS meters.
Originally posted by itsTort As a very avid raider of WoW, TERA, AoC, Warhammer, etc, and knowing about AF armors/raids/etc in FF11, I really hope that there will be some type of DPS meter. I mean, I know that there will be a DPS parser, but I would be hoping for an in game add-on, to prevent alt-tabbing. I know many people just flat out don't care about how well they do, but I personally like to watch as I improve. I'm not sure why you would wish away a 100% optional feature, that affects you in no way what so ever, except, to show you if you are doing something wrong or not.
Its funny how with all your super awesome extensive experiences with MMO's and raiding youre still so eager for a tool that only actually shows a fraction of what makes a good player. Not surprising though, as its common knowledge that this over dependence on DPS meters has people thinking that the only thing that matters now is what that "tool" says.
That's probably because it's a tool that shows the fraction of what makes a good player that is difficult to determine otherwise.
People who top the DPS meter at the expense of dying or pulling aggro are just as bad as those that do less damage than the healer.
There are bad players that are against DPS meters and there are bad players that are for DPS meters. They're bad in different ways (sometimes), but they're bad none-the-less.
There are also people that use DPS meters that are decent people and ones that are assholes. I realize that your experiences in whatever terrible community you were in lean you towards being against DPS meters. However, I ensure you that DPS meters alone do not ruin communities. The People do.
I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.
The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.
I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.
If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.
We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.
Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.
DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.
They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.
That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well.
Maybe allow logging of personal information but not raidwide info. That way dps meters would show you your dps but not everyone elses. Dps meters can be useful to find out what works best, and also sometimes to determine when something isnt working as it should in the game. In vanguard we had a panther illusion mask that was supposed to give 5% melee haste and it was bugged for 2 years without anyone realizing it till I checked it using a dps meter and found it was working in reverse. It got fixed within 1 week.
People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them. I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. But I also don't think that people that don't play that way should be ostracized for their play style. Generally, as long as you're doing something in a group, I don't care, I know that that isn't the case with everyone, but if stuff is dying slower than normal, people are going to be able to tell and will call you out anyway.
Mods like the quest helper, anything with raid timers, etc though are terrible, because it turns into needing them in order to make any sort of progress in raids. Nothing third party should ever be necessary to complete a raid/dungeon.
Its this type of attitude that is responsible for many of us hating dps meters and the dog eat dog attitude that they foster. Contrary to what some people appear to think, to many of us, this isn't some e peen competition, or a second job. Its a source of entertainment, relaxation. If I wanted to be on edge all the damn time, I'd go play some FFA full loot gank fest.
Originally posted by svann Maybe allow logging of personal information but not raidwide info. That way dps meters would show you your dps but not everyone elses. Dps meters can be useful to find out what works best, and also sometimes to determine when something isnt working as it should in the game. In vanguard we had a panther illusion mask that was supposed to give 5% melee haste and it was bugged for 2 years without anyone realizing it till I checked it using a dps meter and found it was working in reverse. It got fixed within 1 week.
I didn't now you were the same Svann from vanguard, I remember you. I want to say you were a rogue, but maybe a melee ranger (my condolences if it was the latter I always thought SOE treated them like red headed stepchildren).
Anyways I really hope they don't restrict game logs. Not everyone wants to run parsers, but sometimes in raiding situations people still want to get information from them. I agree that people can use logs to be dicks, but they do that anyways. Limiting information players can gather is an example of restrictive game design.
My hope is that Square Enix has learned its lesson on implementing such restrictive game design in order to "help" the community. It simply doesn't work, it didn't work when Tanaka tried it with EXP "surplus" and fatigue in 1.0. The answer to all problems is to give people options, and to design content that doesn't actively encourage elitism.
The removal of speed run requirements is a huge step in the right direction in that regard (as speed run mechanics dominated 1.x endgame and did not enhance the experience much for most), but it is not restrictive because they can still implement some (not all or most) encounters which involve "burning" so that a player's DPS matters and those who devote time to it can see a reward for their work.
I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.
The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.
I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.
If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.
We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.
Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.
DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.
They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.
That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well.
Yay for baseless generalizations.
So let's get this straight then:
People for DPS meters are elitist assholes that don't care about teamwork and the only thing that they pay attention to is where they are on the DPS meter.
People against DPS meters are terrible players that ride the coattails of everyone else and are afraid of getting kicked from a group, or held to any reasonable amount of standards.
I'm so glad this discussion has devolved into ad hominem arguments. Where's the OP at? He seemed like a reasonable anti-meter person.
People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them. I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. But I also don't think that people that don't play that way should be ostracized for their play style. Generally, as long as you're doing something in a group, I don't care, I know that that isn't the case with everyone, but if stuff is dying slower than normal, people are going to be able to tell and will call you out anyway.
Mods like the quest helper, anything with raid timers, etc though are terrible, because it turns into needing them in order to make any sort of progress in raids. Nothing third party should ever be necessary to complete a raid/dungeon.
Its this type of attitude that is responsible for many of us hating dps meters and the dog eat dog attitude that they foster. Contrary to what some people appear to think, to many of us, this isn't some e peen competition, or a second job. Its a source of entertainment, relaxation. If I wanted to be on edge all the damn time, I'd go play some FFA full loot gank fest.
So, play that way. Nobody is stopping you from playing the way you want. You're trying to stop us from playing the way we want. I'm not sure how "You play your way, I'll play mine" is a "type of attitude" that makes you hate DPS meters.
DPS meters don't ruin the fun, other players ruin the fun. There was elitism before dps meters, and there will always be in mmo's.
Without a dps meter, people would just use gear scores or ilevels or other basis like that. Even before all these meters and add-ons I can still remember in games where people would inspect you first before they let you join a group to see what you were wearing.
But, on the other hand, DPS meters are a great tool to see if you are getting better at your class(if its dps oriented), to see if your choices are really optimal whether its rotation or skills used, and a good way to see if you are ready for harder content. And yes, you can have fun while still optimizing your character and rotation, in fact its more fun to know you are doing everything right and your party is succeeding because of it.
I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.
The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.
I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.
If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.
We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.
Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.
DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.
They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.
That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well.
Yay for baseless generalizations.
So let's get this straight then:
People for DPS meters are elitist assholes that don't care about teamwork and the only thing that they pay attention to is where they are on the DPS meter.
People against DPS meters are terrible players that ride the coattails of everyone else and are afraid of getting kicked from a group, or held to any reasonable amount of standards.
I'm so glad this discussion has devolved into ad hominem arguments. Where's the OP at? He seemed like a reasonable anti-meter person.
I do believe that players who focus with ranking first do not care much for team play yes.
However i did not Judge them at all neither did i Judge ppl who dont want a DPS meter i even offered an idea how everyone cold get what he needs.
I pointed out that the DPS Meter really isnt needed at all to play good since you can archive that without it as well and in my opinion in a better atmosphere.
Your comment was nothing more than a baseless attack towards my post without offering anything.
So tell me than what for do you need a DPS meter what can you not archive if you leave it out?
Tell me do you believe Fighting for top spots in a pointless addon is forming a better community?
Do you believe we should just leave all to a DPS meter and some builds we find somewhere over Google to play the game instead of experimenting with Guild mates and having fun?
I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.
The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.
I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.
If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.
We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.
Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.
DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.
They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.
That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well.
Yay for baseless generalizations.
So let's get this straight then:
People for DPS meters are elitist assholes that don't care about teamwork and the only thing that they pay attention to is where they are on the DPS meter.
People against DPS meters are terrible players that ride the coattails of everyone else and are afraid of getting kicked from a group, or held to any reasonable amount of standards.
I'm so glad this discussion has devolved into ad hominem arguments. Where's the OP at? He seemed like a reasonable anti-meter person.
I do believe that players who focus with ranking first do not care much for team play yes.
However i did not Judge them at all neither did i Judge ppl who dont want a DPS meter i even offered an idea how everyone cold get what he needs.
I pointed out that the DPS Meter really isnt needed at all to play good since you can archive that without it as well and in my opinion in a better atmosphere.
Your comment was nothing more than a baseless attack towards my post without offering anything.
So tell me than what for do you need a DPS meter what can you not archive if you leave it out?
Tell me do you believe Fighting for top spots in a pointless addon is forming a better community?
Do you believe we should just leave all to a DPS meter and some builds we find somewhere over Google to play the game instead of experimenting with Guild mates and having fun?
You said:
"The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay."
How is saying that people that use DPS meters ignore teamplay not a judgement? You may have meant to point out that there are people that care only about the #1 spot and ignore teamplay in order to reach it. But that's not what you implied by saying that the only thing DPS meters are good for is ignoring teamplay.
You're right, a DPS meter is not required to play well. It's also not required in order to be an elitist jerk or asshole to everyone. I'm not sure what you mean by "archive without it". I'd imagine you mean combat logs, and I'm not going to read through a combat log myself to find out what my DPS is whenever a program can do that for me.
Your right, my comment was an attack (not baseless) on the parroting of the same points that have been brought up by several other posters which have been "refuted" or at least argued against by myself and a few others with no responses to those arguments.
Yes, I do believe that fighting for top spots on this "pointless" add-on builds community. It helps build the min/maxer community greatly. Just because it's not a part of the community that you care about, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fostered.
No I don't. But I also don't think that we should ban a tool that helps foster a particular playstyle because of fear of "backlash" from a subsection of that section of the community.
I have frequently played with friends/guildmates that are terrible at MMOs, terrible DPS, terrible at tanking, terrible at healing. But we're friends/guildmates who have a great time together, so we play together. I have had casuals in every raiding guild I've been a part of that weren't good, and we never gave them any shit for it when we were grouping together.
There are other people in the community that feel just as strongly about DPS meters as you. All I am asking is that you go and play with them, so I can go play with my elitist asshole friends with DPS meters in the way that I want to play. I'm asking to be left alone in my playstyle, and you're attacking it and trying to make it so that everyone plays the way you want to play.
I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.
The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.
I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.
If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.
We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.
Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.
DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.
They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.
That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well.
Yay for baseless generalizations.
So let's get this straight then:
People for DPS meters are elitist assholes that don't care about teamwork and the only thing that they pay attention to is where they are on the DPS meter.
People against DPS meters are terrible players that ride the coattails of everyone else and are afraid of getting kicked from a group, or held to any reasonable amount of standards.
I'm so glad this discussion has devolved into ad hominem arguments. Where's the OP at? He seemed like a reasonable anti-meter person.
I do believe that players who focus with ranking first do not care much for team play yes.
However i did not Judge them at all neither did i Judge ppl who dont want a DPS meter i even offered an idea how everyone cold get what he needs.
I pointed out that the DPS Meter really isnt needed at all to play good since you can archive that without it as well and in my opinion in a better atmosphere.
Your comment was nothing more than a baseless attack towards my post without offering anything.
So tell me than what for do you need a DPS meter what can you not archive if you leave it out?
Tell me do you believe Fighting for top spots in a pointless addon is forming a better community?
Do you believe we should just leave all to a DPS meter and some builds we find somewhere over Google to play the game instead of experimenting with Guild mates and having fun?
You said:
"The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay."
How is saying that people that use DPS meters ignore teamplay not a judgement? You may have meant to point out that there are people that care only about the #1 spot and ignore teamplay in order to reach it. But that's not what you implied by saying that the only thing DPS meters are good for is ignoring teamplay.
You're right, a DPS meter is not required to play well. It's also not required in order to be an elitist jerk or asshole to everyone. I'm not sure what you mean by "archive without it". I'd imagine you mean combat logs, and I'm not going to read through a combat log myself to find out what my DPS is whenever a program can do that for me.
Your right, my comment was an attack (not baseless) on the parroting of the same points that have been brought up by several other posters which have been "refuted" or at least argued against by myself and a few others with no responses to those arguments.
Yes, I do believe that fighting for top spots on this "pointless" add-on builds community. It helps build the min/maxer community greatly. Just because it's not a part of the community that you care about, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fostered.
No I don't. But I also don't think that we should ban a tool that helps foster a particular playstyle because of fear of "backlash" from a subsection of that section of the community.
I have frequently played with friends/guildmates that are terrible at MMOs, terrible DPS, terrible at tanking, terrible at healing. But we're friends/guildmates who have a great time together, so we play together. I have had casuals in every raiding guild I've been a part of that weren't good, and we never gave them any shit for it when we were grouping together.
There are other people in the community that feel just as strongly about DPS meters as you. All I am asking is that you go and play with them, so I can go play with my elitist asshole friends with DPS meters in the way that I want to play. I'm asking to be left alone in my playstyle, and you're attacking it and trying to make it so that everyone plays the way you want to play.
I can see how it could have sounded judgmental however i only wanted to point out that you can do everything without the DPS meter so the real only use is to feel good if you have the top spot which you most of the time can only get if you play for it and not for the team.
I also didnt say to ban it completly like i tried to say with the Ranking system used on Dummies.
I would agree with your sentiment that you want to be left alone to play as you want and the other should play as they want IF that would be possible.
As soon as you have such a tool its hard to not be forced to submit to it wanna join a random group first thing you are asked is your DPS/HPS.
Its not possible to not be part of it unless you find a Guild and only play with them.
I also explained how we managed to max out our classes just by playing with others and why would you not use the combat log if you really only want to know if you became better? If its really only for you the few minutes it would take can not be too much can it?
I totally agree with you that not everyone who wants a DPS meter is an asshole and that not everyone who doesnt want one is a bad player, however if you would not have a dps meter you would not have any assholes because of it but you still would be able to filter out the bad players and help them improve.
So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it. Thats all there is to it if adding the system would add something to the game that could not be archieved otherwise and therefore even out the negative things it adds it would be different but thats not the case for DPS meters.
Maybe improve it have it tell you how often you pulled hate how much healing had to be wasted cause of your top spot in dps how many support abilities did you use over the fight record all that and give a score for that and than Join pts based on Group Value rather than pure dps. Sure it will have drawbacks like a pure DPS meter but it would be a start at least.
Final Fantasy 11 did not have DPS meters, and its still around. It was about what another person posted "Finding a group that clicked" or being part of a Linkshell,and it was a blast.
I have more fun and memorable moments in FF11 than any other MMO I have played. For the simple fact that people did not worry about all the Add-ons you had or IF you did not do at least 1500 dps you could not come to said instance, some how the group just always pulled threw...for the most part . And thats what a challenge is all about. I even believe there was a log IF you wanted to check in the FF11 files to see your own DPS in a fight.
The community was actually friendly enough back then, people/Linkshells would actually help other players learn their class, and in doing so, later down the road that same person who was taught, would teach. But as some have posted an proven DPS meters can create I want to see if im doing better than you attitude.
People who cant stand to wipe a few time, because people are learning their class or learning the instance/encounter just have lack of patience.
Comments
I actually made a statement of opinion based on my last 13 years of gaming experience.
Sure, you could absolutely have someone wipe the group by going tunnel vision. That's not what this forum thread is about though, if you want to start a discussion about players who tunnel vision, please go ahead and start a new thread for that and I will gladly contribute. This thread however, is about the damage meters.
seems you're just describing a bad player, not necessarily someone obsessed with dps. ive known those types, blown everything in the first 20 seconds, you see their damage skyrocket, then die to the first boss mechanic...usually cry about not getting a heal.
that sort would be dieing with or without a dps meter to 'distract' them. luckily in my gamer life most of the best dpsers ive seen were also good at the game they played, and didnt die unless it was a wipe anyway... and yeah, some of them liked to brag at times.
but the blindingly obvious part at the end, yeah it is sometimes. but how do you broach it, without evidence? you bring it up, someone says 'im doing great'...you have nothing to refute them. of course show them a parser and they probably get huffy about the fact you use a parser.
in the end, if they do allow them, you could always 'ban' them from whatever guild you create.
Hi there!
Perhaps you're mistaking the different priorities of the "grown ups" and yourself? Maybe you like to excel at your class, learn the best and most efficient rotations, etc. Others may just want to log in rather than read class guides. It doesn't meant they're better/worse... Just different. That's the beauty of life - everyone's different. People play MMOs for a vast variety of reasons.
Also, I put the grown ups tag in quotes. I hate when people play the age card, on either end of the spectrum.
In WoW I found the healing meter to be helpful so I could see when I was overhealing. I am unsure how I'd heal now even in WoW without some of the mods/add ons.
I remember some rogue in vanilla posting the DPS meter after every boss fight. At least it lent to conversation rather than current WoW instances. Last night the only words muttered were "hey dk, u can't stand in shit."
What I infer and gather from the OP is that he doesn't want some douche canoe neglecting his role in the group just to top the DPS meters.
PS. You don't need to explain the happy balance you've struck with RL and WOW to defend your affinity to a damage meter on mods. It's ok that you like them, and would still be ok if you didn't win at RL while watching the DPS meter.
Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -
I'd say it's usually not obvious who is doing poor damage at all in most games. In the 25 man setting described, where 15 or so players are damage dealers, it can be downright impossible to pinpoint who the weak damage links are without a tool like damage meters. All you would be able to identify would be that your damage, as a group, is lacking.
On the other hand, it's usually significantly easier to identify players who fail to execute some external mechanic, such as failing to move out of an aoe attack area or poison, or failing to pull a lever at the right time.
There are pros and cons to damage meters, for sure. Let's not willingly be oblivious to their pros.
This thread has really derailed from where it started initially and we know meters will be coming in some form or fashion.
I stand by my assertion that a threat meter serves as a much more useful tool comparatively.
But I have little doubt that DPS meters will show themselves as well... And get posted by those poor souls that actually think that a DPS recap on content that isn't timed matters.
At the very least, this thread has highlighted to those fans of it that not everyone cares to see it and why.
Please exercise some consideration in it's use. Perhaps ask if the group is cool with getting the information posted.
http://ffxiv-app.com/
A parser and auto-translator is apparently available. That was even faster than I expected!
Agree fully with you. One more reason i love so much Swtor fp and other end game content.
Best statement yet....
You got to be fucking kidding us. The WoW community is the Hallmark of the Internet. If it is on the web it is going to have ass-hats. If you give ass-hats a way to target people they will.
Mrputts
Ea is like a poo fingered midas ~ShakyMo
So cut the crap. Maybe you only start your whining at -90% but most dont. Most not only do it at a much lower number but they do it in comparison to their own, to what they subjectively think someone elses DPS should be. Unless you'd like to link a developers reveal on what an expected minimum expected DPS is (which they designed the fight to be) on a boss on a class by class break down, there is no objective minimum DPS. The only time that tool is even REALLY necessary (and I say that lightly) is in Raids and personal use. Something that SE can easily limit in game to prevent the harassment that comes with it, at least with PuGs where its most common.
Its funny how with all your super awesome extensive experiences with MMO's and raiding youre still so eager for a tool that only actually shows a fraction of what makes a good player. Not surprising though, as its common knowledge that this over dependence on DPS meters has people thinking that the only thing that matters now is what that "tool" says.
There is nothing wrong with having dps meters.
People who want them like to compete and people who dont want them are most likely casual gamers who don't like to compete. It is what it is. But, don't think all mod users only care about having the HIGHEST DPS or HEALS.
Honestly, i think it is more impressive to have high DPS and be alive at the end of the fight, than have the HIGHEST dps and die mid fight. Don't assume that every mod user just facerolls and don't pay attention to surroundings, because that is not true.
Mods can show who can dish out the highest DPS and HEALS and still be able to mind their surroundings are the true ELITE players. IMO.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
You're assertion that "most don't" is udder bullshit, or you just play with terrible people (not terrible players, terrible people). In my reasonably long time in playing MMOs, mainly EQ2 since launch, I have been in 3 groups where a person has been kicked based off of his performance on a parser. 1 of them was after wiping 3 times to the first boss of a dungeon, 1 of them was because he was only autoattacking, and 1 of them I kicked because he was ninja afking and fought in less than half of the fights and we were having a rough time because of it.
I'm not sure what game you're describing here (WoW I'm sure) but that is a community issue, not an issue with DPS meters. These people would be assholes in some other way if they didn't have DPS meters.
That's probably because it's a tool that shows the fraction of what makes a good player that is difficult to determine otherwise.
People who top the DPS meter at the expense of dying or pulling aggro are just as bad as those that do less damage than the healer.
There are bad players that are against DPS meters and there are bad players that are for DPS meters. They're bad in different ways (sometimes), but they're bad none-the-less.
There are also people that use DPS meters that are decent people and ones that are assholes. I realize that your experiences in whatever terrible community you were in lean you towards being against DPS meters. However, I ensure you that DPS meters alone do not ruin communities. The People do.
Yes!
Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -
I never liked DPS meters and i think they are pointless.
The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay.
I often read that its usefull to have so that you can see who is bad or who doesnt try but lets be honest here you do not need a DPS meter to see that.
If i was in a pt as (for example) Sam i would compare my dmg done with the other Sams if i noticed i would be pulling way less dmg each swing i would compare the equip to find out why and maybe ask for advice, if i would pull way more dmg i would do the same and offer some advice.
We would also talk about it the the LS with the other members and we would compare our sets help each other with improvements and such.
Never needed a DPS meter (or any other similiar tool) to get the best out of the job all it took was some fun while experimenting and help from other players comparing notes it was a healthy community were everyone would help each other and have fun.
DPS meter and such make you not pay attention to other players you only check there numbers not there playstyle its not helping to build a good community if all you are for your raid members is Number 7 on the dps meter.
They should just add a Beat the Dummy kind of system in the games that gives you a set amount of time to deal dmg/heal or generate threat to a dummy(or group of dummies) and than have a ranking list.
That way the ppl who need the satisfaction of having the number 1 spot can be happy the ppl just waning to test a new build can be happy and the ppl who just wanna play a game with some likeminded players and archieve the best possible together could be happy as well.
Its this type of attitude that is responsible for many of us hating dps meters and the dog eat dog attitude that they foster. Contrary to what some people appear to think, to many of us, this isn't some e peen competition, or a second job. Its a source of entertainment, relaxation. If I wanted to be on edge all the damn time, I'd go play some FFA full loot gank fest.
I didn't now you were the same Svann from vanguard, I remember you. I want to say you were a rogue, but maybe a melee ranger (my condolences if it was the latter I always thought SOE treated them like red headed stepchildren).
Anyways I really hope they don't restrict game logs. Not everyone wants to run parsers, but sometimes in raiding situations people still want to get information from them. I agree that people can use logs to be dicks, but they do that anyways. Limiting information players can gather is an example of restrictive game design.
My hope is that Square Enix has learned its lesson on implementing such restrictive game design in order to "help" the community. It simply doesn't work, it didn't work when Tanaka tried it with EXP "surplus" and fatigue in 1.0. The answer to all problems is to give people options, and to design content that doesn't actively encourage elitism.
The removal of speed run requirements is a huge step in the right direction in that regard (as speed run mechanics dominated 1.x endgame and did not enhance the experience much for most), but it is not restrictive because they can still implement some (not all or most) encounters which involve "burning" so that a player's DPS matters and those who devote time to it can see a reward for their work.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Yay for baseless generalizations.
So let's get this straight then:
People for DPS meters are elitist assholes that don't care about teamwork and the only thing that they pay attention to is where they are on the DPS meter.
People against DPS meters are terrible players that ride the coattails of everyone else and are afraid of getting kicked from a group, or held to any reasonable amount of standards.
I'm so glad this discussion has devolved into ad hominem arguments. Where's the OP at? He seemed like a reasonable anti-meter person.
So, play that way. Nobody is stopping you from playing the way you want. You're trying to stop us from playing the way we want. I'm not sure how "You play your way, I'll play mine" is a "type of attitude" that makes you hate DPS meters.
DPS meters don't ruin the fun, other players ruin the fun. There was elitism before dps meters, and there will always be in mmo's.
Without a dps meter, people would just use gear scores or ilevels or other basis like that. Even before all these meters and add-ons I can still remember in games where people would inspect you first before they let you join a group to see what you were wearing.
But, on the other hand, DPS meters are a great tool to see if you are getting better at your class(if its dps oriented), to see if your choices are really optimal whether its rotation or skills used, and a good way to see if you are ready for harder content. And yes, you can have fun while still optimizing your character and rotation, in fact its more fun to know you are doing everything right and your party is succeeding because of it.
I do believe that players who focus with ranking first do not care much for team play yes.
However i did not Judge them at all neither did i Judge ppl who dont want a DPS meter i even offered an idea how everyone cold get what he needs.
I pointed out that the DPS Meter really isnt needed at all to play good since you can archive that without it as well and in my opinion in a better atmosphere.
Your comment was nothing more than a baseless attack towards my post without offering anything.
So tell me than what for do you need a DPS meter what can you not archive if you leave it out?
Tell me do you believe Fighting for top spots in a pointless addon is forming a better community?
Do you believe we should just leave all to a DPS meter and some builds we find somewhere over Google to play the game instead of experimenting with Guild mates and having fun?
You said:
"The only thing they do is give some ppl a means to feel good about themselves because they managed to hit 1st in the dps race while totally ignoring the teamplay."
How is saying that people that use DPS meters ignore teamplay not a judgement? You may have meant to point out that there are people that care only about the #1 spot and ignore teamplay in order to reach it. But that's not what you implied by saying that the only thing DPS meters are good for is ignoring teamplay.
You're right, a DPS meter is not required to play well. It's also not required in order to be an elitist jerk or asshole to everyone. I'm not sure what you mean by "archive without it". I'd imagine you mean combat logs, and I'm not going to read through a combat log myself to find out what my DPS is whenever a program can do that for me.
Your right, my comment was an attack (not baseless) on the parroting of the same points that have been brought up by several other posters which have been "refuted" or at least argued against by myself and a few others with no responses to those arguments.
Yes, I do believe that fighting for top spots on this "pointless" add-on builds community. It helps build the min/maxer community greatly. Just because it's not a part of the community that you care about, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be fostered.
No I don't. But I also don't think that we should ban a tool that helps foster a particular playstyle because of fear of "backlash" from a subsection of that section of the community.
I have frequently played with friends/guildmates that are terrible at MMOs, terrible DPS, terrible at tanking, terrible at healing. But we're friends/guildmates who have a great time together, so we play together. I have had casuals in every raiding guild I've been a part of that weren't good, and we never gave them any shit for it when we were grouping together.
There are other people in the community that feel just as strongly about DPS meters as you. All I am asking is that you go and play with them, so I can go play with my elitist asshole friends with DPS meters in the way that I want to play. I'm asking to be left alone in my playstyle, and you're attacking it and trying to make it so that everyone plays the way you want to play.
I can see how it could have sounded judgmental however i only wanted to point out that you can do everything without the DPS meter so the real only use is to feel good if you have the top spot which you most of the time can only get if you play for it and not for the team.
I also didnt say to ban it completly like i tried to say with the Ranking system used on Dummies.
I would agree with your sentiment that you want to be left alone to play as you want and the other should play as they want IF that would be possible.
As soon as you have such a tool its hard to not be forced to submit to it wanna join a random group first thing you are asked is your DPS/HPS.
Its not possible to not be part of it unless you find a Guild and only play with them.
I also explained how we managed to max out our classes just by playing with others and why would you not use the combat log if you really only want to know if you became better? If its really only for you the few minutes it would take can not be too much can it?
I totally agree with you that not everyone who wants a DPS meter is an asshole and that not everyone who doesnt want one is a bad player, however if you would not have a dps meter you would not have any assholes because of it but you still would be able to filter out the bad players and help them improve.
So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it. Thats all there is to it if adding the system would add something to the game that could not be archieved otherwise and therefore even out the negative things it adds it would be different but thats not the case for DPS meters.
Maybe improve it have it tell you how often you pulled hate how much healing had to be wasted cause of your top spot in dps how many support abilities did you use over the fight record all that and give a score for that and than Join pts based on Group Value rather than pure dps. Sure it will have drawbacks like a pure DPS meter but it would be a start at least.
Like any game, it had a damage parser and many people used it. ( http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=11289867942628770&h=50) there is one of them.