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Interview with Yoshida on P2P decision

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  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tkreep

    f2p = Corporatism

    p2p = Communism

    b2p = Socialism

    Fix'd that for ya.

    Our economic system hasn't been truly capitalistic for some time now. And given that f2p controls both the existence of the problem and offers its solution, the parallel is even more apt.

    All die, so die well.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,204Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Biggest piece is that SE publishes its own games.

    SE is a developer, publisher, and distributor.

    So the only expectations they have to live up to and the only sales figures they have to hit are the ones they set themselves for themselves by themselves.

    It's a very, very powerful position to be in.

    I don't know if there are any other MMOs ever released that can make this claim? Maybe Mythic and DAOC? I don't think Mythic was owned by anyone till 2006 and EA?

    Not even Blizzard and WoW have this claim - as Blizzard was owned by Vivendi before the Activision merger.

    There is SoE with EQ2, NCSoft with Lineage, Funcom with AoC, Turbine with LoRO, DDO, AC, and AC2, Trion with Rift and Defiance, and Perfect World with a few of its games.

    If you count wholly owned subsidiary development studios the list gets pretty big quick.  Arena Net (GW2), SoE (EQ), NCSoft (Wildstar), etc.  Does it really matter if ANet is its own company if they're really just a subsidiary that must answer to NCSoft?  That sort of thing is just a tax and liability setup.

    I still think the developing end of the company must answer to the bean counter department so there is a pressure to deliver.

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Biggest piece is that SE publishes its own games.

    SE is a developer, publisher, and distributor.

    So the only expectations they have to live up to and the only sales figures they have to hit are the ones they set themselves for themselves by themselves.

    It's a very, very powerful position to be in.

    I don't know if there are any other MMOs ever released that can make this claim? Maybe Mythic and DAOC? I don't think Mythic was owned by anyone till 2006 and EA?

    Not even Blizzard and WoW have this claim - as Blizzard was owned by Vivendi before the Activision merger.

    There is SoE with EQ2, NCSoft with Lineage, Funcom with AoC, Turbine with LoRO, DDO, AC, and AC2, Trion with Rift and Defiance, and Perfect World with a few of its games.

    If you count wholly owned subsidiary development studios the list gets pretty big quick.  Arena Net (GW2), SoE (EQ), NCSoft (Wildstar), etc.  Does it really matter if ANet is its own company if they're really just a subsidiary that must answer to NCSoft?  That sort of thing is just a tax and liability setup.

    I still think the developing end of the company must answer to the bean counter department so there is a pressure to deliver.

    Most of those companies do not even fund their own MMO's, visit their websites and read about their corporate investors.  That is who they are beholden to. 

     

    In reality most MMO developers are no different from Sigil, they go out and beg for money to make an MMO and can at the drop of a hat fire everyone in a parking lot.

  • WaldoeWaldoe allentown, PAPosts: 624Member
    Originally posted by Ehllfhire

    The game will still be f2p by a year in. Although fun, its an average clone game with nothing unique to it in an mmo setting. And yes I can confirm Im in the beta.

    Game heads always say no f2p all the way up to f2p (looking at TSW for one)

    What makes it average? Sounds like you are not a fan of the MMO genre.  If the game is done well in all aspects it does not need some mind blowing innovation to have lasting appeal.

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member

    Yoshida is awesome. He literally just shit all over every game that has gone/is going F2P 

    We don't really believe it's a problem with the business model. It's how that's handled.

     

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Biggest piece is that SE publishes its own games.

    SE is a developer, publisher, and distributor.

    So the only expectations they have to live up to and the only sales figures they have to hit are the ones they set themselves for themselves by themselves.

    It's a very, very powerful position to be in.

    I don't know if there are any other MMOs ever released that can make this claim? Maybe Mythic and DAOC? I don't think Mythic was owned by anyone till 2006 and EA?

    Not even Blizzard and WoW have this claim - as Blizzard was owned by Vivendi before the Activision merger.

    There is SoE with EQ2, NCSoft with Lineage, Funcom with AoC, Turbine with LoRO, DDO, AC, and AC2, Trion with Rift and Defiance, and Perfect World with a few of its games.

    If you count wholly owned subsidiary development studios the list gets pretty big quick.  Arena Net (GW2), SoE (EQ), NCSoft (Wildstar), etc.  Does it really matter if ANet is its own company if they're really just a subsidiary that must answer to NCSoft?  That sort of thing is just a tax and liability setup.

    I still think the developing end of the company must answer to the bean counter department so there is a pressure to deliver.

    SoE is a subsidiary of Sony and Turbine is a subsidiary of Time Warner but you do make a very good point  with Trion, Funcom, NCSoft and PW.

    All die, so die well.

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon

    i like the fact that it's p2p, i think that paying into the game encourages more long term players and less "tourists" who just stop by for a coupla weeks.

     

    good communities are forged around the long term players, as opposed to the tourists.

     

    also it might help a bit with the gil spam issues but we cant be sure until we see it in action at launch

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

    Dwight D Eisenhower

    My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

    Henry Rollins

  • VikingGamerVikingGamer Nowhere, TXPosts: 1,347Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ehllfhire

    The game will still be f2p by a year in. Although fun, its an average clone game with nothing unique to it in an mmo setting. And yes I can confirm Im in the beta.

    Game heads always say no f2p all the way up to f2p (looking at TSW for one)

    Yep, just like how they caved and switched FFXI over to f2p...   or not.

    All die, so die well.

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by VikingGamer
    Originally posted by Ehllfhire

    The game will still be f2p by a year in. Although fun, its an average clone game with nothing unique to it in an mmo setting. And yes I can confirm Im in the beta.

    Game heads always say no f2p all the way up to f2p (looking at TSW for one)

    Yep, just like how they caved and switched FFXI over to f2p...   or not.

    Or that cash shop they opened up in FFXIV 1.0 after they made that F2P, because it failed so that is just what you do right?

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk

     

    While I'm a known B2P advocate, I fully support FFXIV as P2P game.  This genre needed another one of these for those of us (for whatever reason) won't play a game if it doesn't have one.  They have provided ample reason and quality to justify it in my opinion, and most of those calling for F2P at the moment seem to be the type who just want free stuff and not ones who want to support a game.

     

    Hopefully games will evolve the payment model in the future that will intrigue people to come back to the model.  While some may hate it, one reason P2P is failing is because there are either too many options out there that don't have it, or that people feel like they're getting ripped off nowadays (or a mixture of both).

     

    I read a few good ideas such as a token system or only using up time when you're logged in (maybe even P2P servers and B2P servers with P2P being able to guest on B2P ones to play with friends).  As for me, I typically don't play P2P games mainly because I only play once more twice a day, and that's like going to an arcade and paying $7.50 for one play session.  Not to mention that $4,000 total I've spent on WoW, which my girlfriend reminds me of every chance she get that I've paid over for grand for a game that I don't even own and can no longer play.  It's taught me to never rent furniture, at least.  xD

     

    FFXIV is something that I saw a lot of soul in with it's new A Realm Reborn development team.  When they started to ask for a subscription, I gladly paid it to help them out.  Now that I'm able to get a special discount on the monthly fee, I'll likely continue to help them as they make this the best game possible with their ideas and passion.

    Not to mention we have the ability to pay 10.00 a month for just 1 character or 15.00 a month for 8 characters. I purchased the game back in 1.0 and am happy about the cheaper route for the subscription.

     

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
     

    Not to mention we have the ability to pay 10.00 a month for just 1 character or 15.00 a month for 8 characters. I purchased the game back in 1.0 and am happy about the cheaper route for the subscription.

     

    Yes i believe p2p can still be just as much a success as it were in the old days of mmo gaming if the publishers can be more flexible with its subscriptions

  • Spaceweed10Spaceweed10 LondonPosts: 625Member
    Sign me up - keep freeloaders out!
  • bizoux86bizoux86 Bangor, PAPosts: 85Member
    FFXIV being p2p = best decision ever! So happy about this! I am willing to pay a monthly sub for a quality game, heck $15 to enjoy unlimited gaming of a game I really enjoy is a bargain.... A sub based game generally also means it will have a higher degree of up-keep (no gold spammers all over trade chat for example), bugs fixed in a timely manner etc... I am SO excited for this game and seeing that it is going to be a sub game just puts the cherry on the sundae for me! :)
  • ShauneepeakShauneepeak Biddeford, MEPosts: 421Member
    Originally posted by MattTheHG

    Yoshida is the man!

    It's a good move, indeed. You can tell that SE really wants this to be a quality MMO for people to play and enjoy, and for people working behind the scenes to get what they deserve.

    I understand a lot of people don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, and complain about that idea, but the reality of it is.. if you want an MMO to last long and to be something that you actually want to play, then you're going to have to pay for it and invest in it.

    Plus, $15 is not that much compared to other expenses we spend our money on... alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, happy meals... 

    I don't use or buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, or happy meals... and $15 a month for a game is a lot nowadays that's $180 a year essentially 3-4 full priced games or more half than half the price of a game console. I could do $10 a month $120 is fine by me long as a game includes free expansions unlike WoW $15 a month+$ expansions was just stupid.

  • bizoux86bizoux86 Bangor, PAPosts: 85Member
    Originally posted by Shauneepeak
    Originally posted by MattTheHG

    Yoshida is the man!

    It's a good move, indeed. You can tell that SE really wants this to be a quality MMO for people to play and enjoy, and for people working behind the scenes to get what they deserve.

    I understand a lot of people don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, and complain about that idea, but the reality of it is.. if you want an MMO to last long and to be something that you actually want to play, then you're going to have to pay for it and invest in it.

    Plus, $15 is not that much compared to other expenses we spend our money on... alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, happy meals... 

    I don't use or buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, or happy meals... and $15 a month for a game is a lot nowadays that's $180 a year essentially 3-4 full priced games or more half than half the price of a game console. I could do $10 a month $120 is fine by me long as a game includes free expansions unlike WoW $15 a month+$ expansions was just stupid.

    That is what I liked about Aion before it went F2P, the expansions were free for account holders.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FlawSGI

     I don't believe a payment model makes a game better or worse TBH. A lot of people appear to have the notion that F2P advocates are cheap and it is the $15 that they complain about, but if you actually stop attacking and listen to the arguments it's really about what they feel their money is worth and not the price of the sub. I don't like subs for the simple fact that few game have really been worth it to me. Then again, I detest the cash grabs that some F2P's use when making their cash shop decisions and limitations on gameplay. I'd rather pay a sub over the alternative.

     

    While I like the article, I don't buy that steady revenue = better planning and more content. It sounds like a great justification for having a sub, but I haven't seen that it equates to a better overall product. WoW, IMO, was an outstanding game for years, yet they have managed to butcher that game and their updates don't come out any faster or any better than other games I have played. I know this is a very subjective example but this is my opinion on why I don't see sub equating to a better product. I will say that FFXI had some of the best bang for their buck when it came to expansions though. 

    This ^

    It's refreshing to see people who don't have their head in the sand.

    There is literally no evidence to support the popular assumption that business model determines game quality. None. There have been great games in every business model, though p2p has a much larger pool to pull examples from. There's also been some crappy games in each business model.

    Regardless of how the article tries to spin this business decision, the truth is that SE doesn't have much of a choice. They took a massive financial risk in rebooting FFXIV. So far it looks like it might pay off, but they literally cannot afford another massive gamble by making it free2play. The best they can do in that regard is to have public betas (like they are doing now), and use that as a method to have people experience the new game. However, once it's actually launched, they'll need to start recooping expenses ASAP.

    If anything, the game might actually be more at risk to making lackluster / unfavorable changes, because Sony will be looking to make up the money it's lost. If it doesn't, things could go very badly for this game.

  • PostcardsPostcards Springfield, VAPosts: 105Member
    I don't care if it's F2P or P2P as long as the game is good.
  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by aesperus
    Originally posted by FlawSGI

     I don't believe a payment model makes a game better or worse TBH. A lot of people appear to have the notion that F2P advocates are cheap and it is the $15 that they complain about, but if you actually stop attacking and listen to the arguments it's really about what they feel their money is worth and not the price of the sub. I don't like subs for the simple fact that few game have really been worth it to me. Then again, I detest the cash grabs that some F2P's use when making their cash shop decisions and limitations on gameplay. I'd rather pay a sub over the alternative.

     

    While I like the article, I don't buy that steady revenue = better planning and more content. It sounds like a great justification for having a sub, but I haven't seen that it equates to a better overall product. WoW, IMO, was an outstanding game for years, yet they have managed to butcher that game and their updates don't come out any faster or any better than other games I have played. I know this is a very subjective example but this is my opinion on why I don't see sub equating to a better product. I will say that FFXI had some of the best bang for their buck when it came to expansions though. 

    This ^

    It's refreshing to see people who don't have their head in the sand.

    There is literally no evidence to support the popular assumption that business model determines game quality. None. There have been great games in every business model, though p2p has a much larger pool to pull examples from. There's also been some crappy games in each business model.

    Regardless of how the article tries to spin this business decision, the truth is that SE doesn't have much of a choice. They took a massive financial risk in rebooting FFXIV. So far it looks like it might pay off, but they literally cannot afford another massive gamble by making it free2play. The best they can do in that regard is to have public betas (like they are doing now), and use that as a method to have people experience the new game. However, once it's actually launched, they'll need to start recooping expenses ASAP.

    If anything, the game might actually be more at risk to making lackluster / unfavorable changes, because Sony will be looking to make up the money it's lost. If it doesn't, things could go very badly for this game.

    I'm not trolling you, but can you give me an example of a F2P or B2P that has launched quality long term content updates, say equal to games like WoW or FFXI's updates?  I realize that is subjective, but I'll admit I only have followed the F2P conversions after they dropped the subscriptions and it seemed to me like all of them had a huge drop in content updates (but plenty of cash shop stuff was added).  I won't belittle your opinion if I disagree.

     

    I am however aware that there can be bad P2P games, I have played SOE MMO's more than that of any other publisher, and they notoriously did not provide adequate updates for their games.  Both EQ2 when I played, and really hideously Vanguard which they left to rot and die while all of the playerbase paid every single month a full price subscription.  Despicable businesses exist in every business model.  SOE is no better now as a F2P publisher than they were when they drove many fans away with their greedy stagnation of properties they controlled.

  • EhllfhireEhllfhire Sacramento, CAPosts: 597Member
    The game will go f2p, not because its bad, but because its average. There is nothing that isnt a direct clone of wow or other games like GW2. The game while tons of fun, is super easy mode. I plan on subbing, but it will go f2p as I cant see it selling over 150k copies.

    Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
    PS3

  • F2PlagueF2Plague Toronto, ONPosts: 57Member
    A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.
  • EhllfhireEhllfhire Sacramento, CAPosts: 597Member
    Originally posted by F2Plague
    A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.

    So we can count on you leaving when it goes f2p?

    Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
    PS3

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member
    Originally posted by Ehllfhire
    Originally posted by F2Plague
    A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.

    So we can count on you leaving when it goes f2p?

    I will can we count on you to stop trolling now that you have made your prediction of the game only selling 150k copies and going f2p in under a year.  I'll see you in a year, and we'll see who is right.

     

    I'm feeling pretty good coming from the past two years playing this game without it going f2p, but I'm sure you know something I don't.  That is why you are my #1  source for rectally recovered online message board predictions.

  • F2PlagueF2Plague Toronto, ONPosts: 57Member
    Indeed. Let me ask you a question though. Who are you? Do you analyze market data for a living? Do you work for square enix? What makes you the great all knowing f2p guru? You don't know shit, you like to pretend you do. But you're just playing silly guessing games trying to upset the people who are genuinely looking forward to this game.. Sad.
  • EhllfhireEhllfhire Sacramento, CAPosts: 597Member
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by Ehllfhire
    Originally posted by F2Plague
    A bunch of ridiculous responses to a great article. I will be playing this game simply because its  a p2p, I am tired of all the f2p trash that's on the market right now. Troll away.

    So we can count on you leaving when it goes f2p?

    I will can we count on you to stop trolling now that you have made your prediction of the game only selling 150k copies and going f2p in under a year.  I'll see you in a year, and we'll see who is right.

     

    I'm feeling pretty good coming from the past two years playing this game without it going f2p, but I'm sure you know something I don't.  That is why you are my #1  source for rectally recovered online message board predictions.

    LOL you do realize that FFXIV was f2p for over a year, and then shut down after having subs for a year. Plus, I never said anything bad about the game. Lets be realistic though, while fun, its wow clone #1079 and thats why it will end up f2p eventually

    Any graphical, audio, or gameplay restrictions not seen in other mmos but found in FFXIV can be blamed on one thing.
    PS3

  • Kayo83Kayo83 Hollywood, FLPosts: 146Member
    Originally posted by Shauneepeak
    Originally posted by MattTheHG

    Yoshida is the man!

    It's a good move, indeed. You can tell that SE really wants this to be a quality MMO for people to play and enjoy, and for people working behind the scenes to get what they deserve.

    I understand a lot of people don't like the idea of paying a monthly subscription, and complain about that idea, but the reality of it is.. if you want an MMO to last long and to be something that you actually want to play, then you're going to have to pay for it and invest in it.

    Plus, $15 is not that much compared to other expenses we spend our money on... alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, happy meals... 

    I don't use or buy alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, or happy meals... and $15 a month for a game is a lot nowadays that's $180 a year essentially 3-4 full priced games or more half than half the price of a game console. I could do $10 a month $120 is fine by me long as a game includes free expansions unlike WoW $15 a month+$ expansions was just stupid.

    So you dont go to the movies either? Eat out more than 2-3 times a month? Hope not ... Also I dont know how long you can go playing the same game over and over but 3-4 full priced games can easily be beaten and completed in  2 months tops. Only game Ive gotten a better deal than an MMO so far has been an Elder Scrolls game. How much does the usual DLC go for now-a-days? $10-$20? Thats 1/3 price of a full game for maybe 4-5 more hours of content? 45 minutes if we're talking an EA game. You have Xbox Live Gold?

    Yeah if I played other games nearly as much as ive played MMO's id be buying a new game every month.

    P.S: $7 an hour paycheck is a lot nowadays. Thats over half a million dollars before I retire! Thats like 2 brand new Ferrari's! See what I did there? You can make any minuscule amount seem like a lot when you multiply it enough.

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