Even with utility skills having a measured value of DPS can only be a positive thing. Now....if you get into the exclusionary part of it (You suck, DPS is weak, /kick) then you're just talking about an individual who will do that regardless of whether there's something first or third party available to measure DPS.
TL;DR version of thread:
OP doesn't want people to know how badly he's sucking.
There were many negatives mentioned in this thread.
This ignores so many factors that it's almost depressing to read.
Please post something constructive, people. We're just repeating feelings as opposed to writing on things that have been written.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Seems every new MMO has this argument. The thing is some people see meters as a threat to their position in a guild or as a gate to doing content, which it very well may be. It's also false to assume that just because someone is using a damage meter, they are going to Leeroy everything to max them deeps - yet you do zero damage when you're dead. Generally these meters tend to come with recording number of deaths, damage taken, dispels, etc which any smart leader would take into account.
At the end of the day people can debate it (yet again) until their blue in face but I'm going to say that you should expect to see 3rd party parsers very early in game, seeing as the game logs everything. Also it was stated that they do have plans to add Damage and Healing meters in 2.2 or 2.3 ~6 months after release or so using Flash API.
Seems every new MMO has this argument. The thing is some people see meters as a threat to their position in a guild or as a gate to doing content, which it very well may be. It's also false to assume that just because someone is using a damage meter, they are going to Leeroy everything to max them deeps - yet you do zero damage when you're dead. Generally these meters tend to come with recording number of deaths, damage taken, dispels, etc which any smart leader would take into account.
At the end of the day people can debate it (yet again) until their blue in face but I'm going to say that you should expect to see 3rd party parsers very early in game, seeing as the game logs everything. Also it was stated that they do have plans to add Damage and Healing meters in 2.2 or 2.3 ~6 months after release or so using Flash API.
Quite so.
People are thinking either the worst or best case scenarios with this. When talking about WoW, it's easy to always assume the worst due to the community and how there are many, many more who exploit these mod than there are who actually really do benefit from it.
I wrote in a previous discussion when this popped up with Wildstar that I would like it if they added it as an in game feature only for those who are designated Raid Leaders (a feature of being a raid leader and perhaps granting it to raid assistants). Perhaps even in "training" areas with dummies. That way leaders will likely put it to good use, and people can work on it solo without all the "jerks" giving it a bad name.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I don't mind mods really. A lot of them are pretty good, and Blizzard has "copied" a lot of the mods that people made. My guild in WoW actually runs a "no mod" raid on Monday night, it's some of the most fun I've had in awhile hehe
Hopefully this lightens the mood up for this thread.
The funny thing about that is that he was in the original, but not the remake. So they're both right in their own ways, but refuse to acknowledge it or understand which version the other is talking about.
Nope no no no just no there was no remake and there is no terminator 3 or salvation because it ended at 2.
Square normally is against that stuff but of course if too many ask for it ,is possible but i doubt it.
However i would say you can expect people to make their own parsers and add ons.The one that made it's way into FFXI i consider a cheat,it allows more than the game allows and is the platform for other cheats that made it's way into the game.
I think it is pretty much a given in every game genre,there is always people who feel the need to be the best and/or cheat.That is is why i never like pvp in my rpg games,it encourages more of it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
A dps meter would not work in the Final Fantasy realm. Unlike Wow, which has a trinity of tank,dps and healer, FF mmos have tank,dps,healer and support. Jobs like bard add an entirely new element. I very good dps player will not out damage an average dps player who has a bards buffs. Furthermore we have no idea what type of buffs summoner, arcanist and scholar will provide.
Secondly unlike Wow which allows a limited number of gems and enhancements to gear, FFXIV allows futher customization. With the materia system you can continue to improve gear if you have the time and money. So two players with the exact same gear will more than likely have very different stats. There are no +1s in Wow, which further increases the variation in Dps.
Also with abilities like limit breaks how can a dps meter truely be accurate? A monk may out damage a dragoon for most of a dungeon, but one good limit break allowed by party for dragoon could change all of that. Numbers alone wouldnt give the real score.
Lasty there are different buffs that come with the size of party you are in. All of Wows dungeons are 5 man. With most raids being 10. FFXIV has light parties and full parties. So depending on what kind of group you are in your dps will change considerably.
I dont believe meters will ever find there way into FFXIV. This is not a western mmo. Its an mmo that rewards for more than just how much dps a player can do.
In Wow shortly after panda was released my 90 Frost DK was out dps members of my group 70k per sec, to their 40k. Not once did I pull hate from tank. If I did anything near that in FFXIV I would be dead. FFXIV rewards players for being smarter than your average Wow player. Meters would never matter.
A dps meter would not work in the Final Fantasy realm. Unlike Wow, which has a trinity of tank,dps and healer, FF mmos have tank,dps,healer and support. Jobs like bard add an entirely new element. I very good dps player will not out damage an average dps player who has a bards buffs. Furthermore we have no idea what type of buffs summoner, arcanist and scholar will provide.
Secondly unlike Wow which allows a limited number of gems and enhancements to gear, FFXIV allows futher customization. With the materia system you can continue to improve gear if you have the time and money. So two players with the exact same gear will more than likely have very different stats. There are no +1s in Wow, which further increases the variation in Dps.
Also with abilities like limit breaks how can a dps meter truely be accurate? A monk may out damage a dragoon for most of a dungeon, but one good limit break allowed by party for dragoon could change all of that. Numbers alone wouldnt give the real score.
Lasty there are different buffs that come with the size of party you are in. All of Wows dungeons are 5 man. With most raids being 10. FFXIV has light parties and full parties. So depending on what kind of group you are in your dps will change considerably.
I dont believe meters will ever find there way into FFXIV. This is not a western mmo. Its an mmo that rewards for more than just how much dps a player can do.
In Wow shortly after panda was released my 90 Frost DK was out dps members of my group 70k per sec, to their 40k. Not once did I pull hate from tank. If I did anything near that in FFXIV I would be dead. FFXIV rewards players for being smarter than your average Wow player. Meters would never matter.
Q: What exactly do you have in mind for community-generated add-ons? Also, how much game data will we be able to utilize?
A: The type of add-on I have in mind are those of the UI persuasion. For example, we can have players customize the UI with a skin of their choice, have enmity displayed graphical, and add windows to view useful information so players will be able to separate information that is otherwise displayed in one large, single window. Add-ons will then become active once they are downloaded and placed in the custom folder. As for the PS3 version, we'll make sure it doesn't trail behind the PC version.
I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and hopefully mods are off the table entirely. A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.
The thought of chat filling up with things like "post deeps bro" or " what class brings the most dps" makes my excitement die a little. I can remember great times in Yuhtunga Jungle way back in the day of camping out with a good group and exping off of mobs. No one cared about dps. The thrill was getting that awesome group that clicked.
Final Fantasy is about the story, the journey, and exploration. Final Fantasy XI captured that excellently and we were able to share it others. It wasn't about dividing and competing against people. I hope this mentality carries over into the ARR. I am concerned that it is going to attract a crowd that it is not aimed for.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with those types of games or gamers; It just doesn't fit the FF world. I am worried people will try to force it in, and Square will listen.
Maybe I just need to get in a good, mature linkshell with people from FFXI.
I agree. What happened to the good old days where you figured out DPS by testing on mobs that you previously benchmarked? Too much hand holding these days, and too much begging for hand holding apparently. Like you I thought FFXI was perfect, and anything implemented from XI to XIV would be welcome.
I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and hopefully mods are off the table entirely. A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.
The thought of chat filling up with things like "post deeps bro" or " what class brings the most dps" makes my excitement die a little. I can remember great times in Yuhtunga Jungle way back in the day of camping out with a good group and exping off of mobs. No one cared about dps. The thrill was getting that awesome group that clicked.
Final Fantasy is about the story, the journey, and exploration. Final Fantasy XI captured that excellently and we were able to share it others. It wasn't about dividing and competing against people. I hope this mentality carries over into the ARR. I am concerned that it is going to attract a crowd that it is not aimed for.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with those types of games or gamers; It just doesn't fit the FF world. I am worried people will try to force it in, and Square will listen.
Maybe I just need to get in a good, mature linkshell with people from FFXI.
I agree. What happened to the good old days where you figured out DPS by testing on mobs that you previously benchmarked? Too much hand holding these days, and too much begging for hand holding apparently. Like you I thought FFXI was perfect, and anything implemented from XI to XIV would be welcome.
I loved XI too guys, but come on once DPS meters became available for XI many people used them. Also many people in XI were elitist assholes, and the endgame communities were hardly holding hands together in fields of flowers singing songs and hugging eachother. It was fun, lots of people were great, some were not, let's not get carried away with the perfect talk though.
You can't prevent damage meters, people make them third party and it is what it is. However, I hardly think the direction this game is going is "divisive" and will pit people against each other in DPS races. From the sound of it they are doing the best they can to make jobs balanced, and they are removing certain stress inducing features like timed dungeons and "speed runs" for special chests. So people should be able to find communities where they can have fun and not worry about such things if they don't want to.
Personally before XI had parsers I still parsed the log by hand to find out if there was something I could do better. Not so I could brag about it or feel superior to anyone, I just wanted to do what I could to help my LS. People can make the choice to analyze their play if they want to without negatively affecting anyone else.
Final Fantasy 11 did not have DPS meters, and its still around. It was about what another person posted "Finding a group that clicked" or being part of a Linkshell,and it was a blast.
I have more fun and memorable moments in FF11 than any other MMO I have played. For the simple fact that people did not worry about all the Add-ons you had or IF you did not do at least 1500 dps you could not come to said instance, some how the group just always pulled threw...for the most part . And thats what a challenge is all about. I even believe there was a log IF you wanted to check in the FF11 files to see your own DPS in a fight.
The community was actually friendly enough back then, people/Linkshells would actually help other players learn their class, and in doing so, later down the road that same person who was taught, would teach. But as some have posted an proven DPS meters can create I want to see if im doing better than you attitude.
People who cant stand to wipe a few time, because people are learning their class or learning the instance/encounter just have lack of patience.
I myself see nothing wrong with DPS and other type of meters as they themselves do nothing but provide accurate information for players to use. Much like nearly anything in MMO gaming there will be elitists that may try to use that information to decide who is good enough to play with them and not. Even if such meters aren't around the same people may decide to use total levels, equipment, experience and anything else in the game that differentiates one person from another. The answer to these people isn't to try and limit the ways they can figure out who makes whatever cut they decide upon as then your just doing nothing but removing elements from the game that can have positive benefits for others. DPS meters wouldn't matter if everyone wore no gear and had 1 spammable dps ability that did exactly the same damage for every class, but it wouldn't exactly be a fun game either. The obvious answer is not to bother with them at all and let them play with their other like minded friends. The only thing you gain by even removing such things is having those same people mixed into your groups and getting upset about things you consider trivial and risking ruining your own fun.
Now about meters not working with FFXIV not having the usual trinity, I think that doesn't make sense. Now if your going for nothing more than 'WHOEVER DOES MOST DAMAGE IS A BETTER PLAYER!' I can see it being an issue but any sane person will realize that the support class probably isn't going to out DPS the pure DPS class. 'Most' cross class comparisons will be rather pointless but what it can do is show people that are skilled at what they are supposed to be doing.
If there was suddenly a new patch releasing a hard new boss and I could only bring along X people. I'm sure I would like to be able to tell that Bard X not only does 20% more DPS than any of the other Bards I've played with but he also does 20% more healing than them as well while having perfect up-time on his buffs, who cares if the dragoons double his DPS every fight as they will be needing the buffs he provides to do that kind of DPS. This is obviously a guy who has learned his class well and someone I'd like to bring along when the group is going to be really pushing themselves. Same thing applies for healing, if I have to run 5 White Mages for a specific boss (I'm just throwing out random numbers of course) and I find that most of them are healing around X HPS all of which are around 10% of each other and then there is a random one doing only like 20% of the healing of any one of the others, I'd like to know. Can give him some possible tips on what he could do to get his numbers up closer to what the other healers are doing and if he just doesn't care and is more into the game for the social aspect then that is fine as well. I wouldn't mind taking him to things that aren't difficult but it'd be a disservice to everyone else if I brought him along on that hard boss Square-Enix just put in.
So in regard to FFXIV I feel that meters could be helpful and the only real downsides stem from specific types of people that will cause problems regardless of the meters themselves. Of course that's not to say 'all' MMO games benefit from such things. GW2 being a rather good example of a game where meters don't actually do anything. Who cares how much damage your doing to the open world dragon encounter. There's no set number of people there to kill it so everyone in the zone can come and help out, it honestly doesn't matter if you suddenly go afk halfway through the fight, you might die but those types of fights are based around the individual, where your not dealing with something you yourself need to rely on others to take care of unless you somehow messed up by not dodging something you should have been able to like everyone else. Even if all but 10 people at the dragon died, the monsters adjust to the number of people around them so those 10 could kill it just as easily as the 100 that started on it.
Now if FFXIV has nothing but mass zerg type group/raid content where you can invite as many people as you want, then sure the meters mean nothing. Grab 50 Bards and you don't need to care about the 5 that wear their hats on their feet and dance through the boss fight as you've got another 35 you could lose before you even need to start worrying. But from what I've heard that doesn't seem to be the case. When you start being forced to make decisions on who you can and can't bring with you, it's nice to have those tools to make choices you feel confident with. Just like I might love that man-thong armor set for it's looks but I probably want to wear the set with 500 armor when I'm fighting something challenging, it's really nice that they actually list the armor on the items for me so I can see which I need to bring along for harder situations. Otherwise I'm just stuck taking my lumps while I try to figure out whats going on.
Final Fantasy 11 did not have DPS meters, and its still around. It was about what another person posted "Finding a group that clicked" or being part of a Linkshell,and it was a blast.
I have more fun and memorable moments in FF11 than any other MMO I have played. For the simple fact that people did not worry about all the Add-ons you had or IF you did not do at least 1500 dps you could not come to said instance, some how the group just always pulled threw...for the most part . And thats what a challenge is all about. I even believe there was a log IF you wanted to check in the FF11 files to see your own DPS in a fight.
The community was actually friendly enough back then, people/Linkshells would actually help other players learn their class, and in doing so, later down the road that same person who was taught, would teach. But as some have posted an proven DPS meters can create I want to see if im doing better than you attitude.
People who cant stand to wipe a few time, because people are learning their class or learning the instance/encounter just have lack of patience.
Kparser, Spyles parser, FFXI log parser, directparse. There were many parsers used by people playing XI, they became popular shortly after they started to pop up everywhere else.
I think you mean that people didn't generally use them when leveling, but many people did actually from 04/05+.
Not to mention the lasting impact of windower on the XI community, a third party program that was truly nefarious. Something that was needed beacuse the game did not support alt+tab, but encouraged all sorts of botting abilities, hacks, auto macros, timers, really a lot of stuff people complain about in WoW but taken to a more cheating-like level in XI.
Third party programs and cheating ruined XI for me, I'm glad you never got to see it. But trust me it was there and it was as bad as it gets.
Its going to be abused by most people. They will link it in chat 20 times to show the world how pro they are with dps. Untill the healer get tired of healing the dps who keeps pulling agro of the tank and let him die.
Then you get the WTF NOOB ? i do best dps and you let me die ? WTF NOOB ? heal me retard ?!
Thanks but no thanks, FF is a little more complicated then spamming 1 2 3 and show wich clas has the most dps potantial while other dps classes needs to buff inbetween dps skills or CC or whatever needs to be done. The tank will hate this dps for keep pulling aggro and chasing the mob and dps around. remember this aint wow where the tank cant lose aggro of he just spams 1 buttan.
I have no problem if all people do their job and the dps / healing is shown at the end of the dungeon. But thats never going to happen.
its best to forget addons that will be abused even if it can come in handy to show how high your dps can be in ideal circumstances.
I played WoW for a extremely long time and i was mostly top dps in dungeons and raids, or very close to the top.
FF just doesnt need that shit as its totaly diffrent in agro / support / dps / healing.
A lot of you DPS meter watchers are in for a rude awakening in FFXIV if boss fights are anything like FFXI. Gonna be a lot of dead DDs laying on the ground because they are not paying attention to what the mob is doing. Should be pretty amusing.
While FFXI did have log parsers, they were used more for bragging rights at the end of a fight and a lot less focus on real-time stats. If we wanted raw data on our output most players used spreadsheets made by the community. This will most likely be what you see in FFXIV as well.
I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.
Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about.
If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.
....Is reading comprehension really that bad for folks? Read the OP's post again and try one more time. In fact, read his other posts. mmorpg.com helped you out by making his name all green so you can actually catch it, comprehend and put two and two together. No where did he display the type of individual scared of competition. What he is concerned with is how it effects a community and the environment creates. Which your post illustrates.
And no, you don't NEED the mods. I play FFXI and from what I have seen and played in beta this is a bit similar to that play and I can tell you there is more to damage in this game than those meters will give you. Not to mention you and your party members can tell if you carrying your weight without them. We never had issues understanding that in the past. It was rather obvious who was holding their own and who just tagging along on our coat tails.
With that said, I have no issues with the meters. I don't need them nor care that much like I use to when I raided almost every day. It was more understandable in WoW at that time with 40 people but in FF I wouldn't sweat it much. Nice to have but no necessity for me. I will be looking more for who hits the limit breaks more consistently. That alone tells me the players ability and attention to the fight.
Plus if you are going to be a bard then looking at dps meter is going to prove rather fruitless since you will be buffing more than just doing nothing but dps.
I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and hopefully mods are off the table entirely. A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.
The thought of chat filling up with things like "post deeps bro" or " what class brings the most dps" makes my excitement die a little. I can remember great times in Yuhtunga Jungle way back in the day of camping out with a good group and exping off of mobs. No one cared about dps. The thrill was getting that awesome group that clicked.
Final Fantasy is about the story, the journey, and exploration. Final Fantasy XI captured that excellently and we were able to share it others. It wasn't about dividing and competing against people. I hope this mentality carries over into the ARR. I am concerned that it is going to attract a crowd that it is not aimed for.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with those types of games or gamers; It just doesn't fit the FF world. I am worried people will try to force it in, and Square will listen.
Maybe I just need to get in a good, mature linkshell with people from FFXI.
I really really disagree with this..... DPS meters for me at least help improve myself. I could care less how much I'm beating someone. I like to do the best at what I'm doing. So what if I'm a number cruncher, why should this effect you? Maybe just don't download it? You do have options you realize.
I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and hopefully mods are off the table entirely. A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.
The thought of chat filling up with things like "post deeps bro" or " what class brings the most dps" makes my excitement die a little. I can remember great times in Yuhtunga Jungle way back in the day of camping out with a good group and exping off of mobs. No one cared about dps. The thrill was getting that awesome group that clicked.
Final Fantasy is about the story, the journey, and exploration. Final Fantasy XI captured that excellently and we were able to share it others. It wasn't about dividing and competing against people. I hope this mentality carries over into the ARR. I am concerned that it is going to attract a crowd that it is not aimed for.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with those types of games or gamers; It just doesn't fit the FF world. I am worried people will try to force it in, and Square will listen.
Maybe I just need to get in a good, mature linkshell with people from FFXI.
I really really disagree with this..... DPS meters for me at least help improve myself. I could care less how much I'm beating someone. I like to do the best at what I'm doing. So what if I'm a number cruncher, why should this effect you? Maybe just don't download it? You do have options you realize.
He doesn't have much of an option when it comes to the others that download it, obsess over their DPS and start wiping groups because they're too concerned about their numbers... That's the real issue with DPS meters; they cause people to start thinking that DPS is the most important thing, and maybe in WoW it was considering tanks never lost threat, but in this game if any DPS pumps out 100% of their potential they will pull threat and get killed. They simply serve no purpose in this game and will encourage bad play.
DPS meter is so useless. Just learn your rotations and the results will come. What I can see about the group fights so far in XIV, it isn't all about damage. If you're more concerned about trying to maximize your DPS, you'll end up hindering your groups Limit Break progression.
I've played nearly every mmorpg out there, including Wow and FFXI. FFXI has remained my favorite of them all because of the great memories I made while playing. The fact is that we live in a different time now. Games have changed and so have the people that play them, not to mention a wider audience of players. I don't think dps meters will effect the community of the game as much as you fear, it will all depend on the people you meet. if you meet people who use a dps meter as a way of proving they are better, those kind of people will just find another way to prove themselves.
Final Fantasy as a genre has also changed. I personally would love to experience the same kind of feeling FFXI gave me, I don't think FF14AAR will deliver. It's a completely different game, and will hopefully be love-able in its own way, with or without DPS meters.
I really hope DPS meters do not find their way in to this game, and hopefully mods are off the table entirely. A part of my excitement just died a little bit because I realized there are going to be people clamoring for meters so they can feel superior to others. I don't want that in the community of this game and I hope square does not give in to the people who try to demand it on their forums.
The thought of chat filling up with things like "post deeps bro" or " what class brings the most dps" makes my excitement die a little. I can remember great times in Yuhtunga Jungle way back in the day of camping out with a good group and exping off of mobs. No one cared about dps. The thrill was getting that awesome group that clicked.
Final Fantasy is about the story, the journey, and exploration. Final Fantasy XI captured that excellently and we were able to share it others. It wasn't about dividing and competing against people. I hope this mentality carries over into the ARR. I am concerned that it is going to attract a crowd that it is not aimed for.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with those types of games or gamers; It just doesn't fit the FF world. I am worried people will try to force it in, and Square will listen.
Maybe I just need to get in a good, mature linkshell with people from FFXI.
I really really disagree with this..... DPS meters for me at least help improve myself. I could care less how much I'm beating someone. I like to do the best at what I'm doing. So what if I'm a number cruncher, why should this effect you? Maybe just don't download it? You do have options you realize.
He doesn't have much of an option when it comes to the others that download it, obsess over their DPS and start wiping groups because they're too concerned about their numbers... That's the real issue with DPS meters; they cause people to start thinking that DPS is the most important thing, and maybe in WoW it was considering tanks never lost threat, but in this game if any DPS pumps out 100% of their potential they will pull threat and get killed. They simply serve no purpose in this game and will encourage bad play.
That all depends on the player. Everyone should understand your dps = 0 when you're dead. So pulling aggro, or dying should be the number one thing you try not to do. So in the end it's up to the player dps meter or not isn't going to fix that.
Q: What exactly do you have in mind for community-generated add-ons? Also, how much game data will we be able to utilize?
A: The type of add-on I have in mind are those of the UI persuasion. For example, we can have players customize the UI with a skin of their choice, have enmity displayed graphical, and add windows to view useful information so players will be able to separate information that is otherwise displayed in one large, single window. Add-ons will then become active once they are downloaded and placed in the custom folder. As for the PS3 version, we'll make sure it doesn't trail behind the PC version.
I wonder if everyone caught that there was a definitive answer to the OP's question and it was posted by Striderbob.
There will be Mods.
And FFXI Players, as much as you'd like to convince everyone that FFXI mobs / raids were so much harder than WoW raids... A lot of us (myself included) have done both. You forget who you guys are talking to, this is the haven of super nerds.
FFXI raiding is not some mythical thing, and its not some how so much harder than every other end game raiding guild. I say this as someone who did Sea as a White Mage and as a Nin tank. As someone who raided in WoW from Karazhan until now as all three specs. They aren't that different mechanically. So lets stop with all the posturing please. Thanks.
I've noticed that all the people replying in favor of meters do so because "it's a competition" or "to better themselves" or "to get that extra 5%".
This is a game. The turning of the game into a competition is ruining MY game. There was a funny comic at the front that said it the best. I want to have fun. I want to relax. Yea I want to work to kill something but I also don't want to have to devote my life to gameplay for me to be involved and have fun.
I'm sorry, I'm a grown up. I don't get a summer vacation and sleeping until 10 every day so I can Raid with my buddies until 4-5 in the morning.
Meters, as previously stated so many times, are a slippery slope that ruin games. They establish a number that is use SPECIFICALLY to group people into wanted/not wanted categories. The IDEA of them is awesome, but the reality of the situation is people aren't grown up enough/mature enough to warrant them. Just like GS. I liked the idea of Gear Score. It gave me a rough idea of what I wanted/needed and where I should take my characters as far as progression went. Then it became a "you can't go unless your GS is xxxxx" nevermind that my GS was xxxxx-2. Or that in order to get BETTER gear you had to participate in Raids.
TLDR: Meters aren't bad, people are bad. Until you fix people, you shouldn't have meters.
Comments
There were many negatives mentioned in this thread.
This ignores so many factors that it's almost depressing to read.
Please post something constructive, people. We're just repeating feelings as opposed to writing on things that have been written.
Seems every new MMO has this argument. The thing is some people see meters as a threat to their position in a guild or as a gate to doing content, which it very well may be. It's also false to assume that just because someone is using a damage meter, they are going to Leeroy everything to max them deeps - yet you do zero damage when you're dead. Generally these meters tend to come with recording number of deaths, damage taken, dispels, etc which any smart leader would take into account.
At the end of the day people can debate it (yet again) until their blue in face but I'm going to say that you should expect to see 3rd party parsers very early in game, seeing as the game logs everything. Also it was stated that they do have plans to add Damage and Healing meters in 2.2 or 2.3 ~6 months after release or so using Flash API.
Quite so.
People are thinking either the worst or best case scenarios with this. When talking about WoW, it's easy to always assume the worst due to the community and how there are many, many more who exploit these mod than there are who actually really do benefit from it.
I wrote in a previous discussion when this popped up with Wildstar that I would like it if they added it as an in game feature only for those who are designated Raid Leaders (a feature of being a raid leader and perhaps granting it to raid assistants). Perhaps even in "training" areas with dummies. That way leaders will likely put it to good use, and people can work on it solo without all the "jerks" giving it a bad name.
Nope no no no just no there was no remake and there is no terminator 3 or salvation because it ended at 2.
Square normally is against that stuff but of course if too many ask for it ,is possible but i doubt it.
However i would say you can expect people to make their own parsers and add ons.The one that made it's way into FFXI i consider a cheat,it allows more than the game allows and is the platform for other cheats that made it's way into the game.
I think it is pretty much a given in every game genre,there is always people who feel the need to be the best and/or cheat.That is is why i never like pvp in my rpg games,it encourages more of it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
A dps meter would not work in the Final Fantasy realm. Unlike Wow, which has a trinity of tank,dps and healer, FF mmos have tank,dps,healer and support. Jobs like bard add an entirely new element. I very good dps player will not out damage an average dps player who has a bards buffs. Furthermore we have no idea what type of buffs summoner, arcanist and scholar will provide.
Secondly unlike Wow which allows a limited number of gems and enhancements to gear, FFXIV allows futher customization. With the materia system you can continue to improve gear if you have the time and money. So two players with the exact same gear will more than likely have very different stats. There are no +1s in Wow, which further increases the variation in Dps.
Also with abilities like limit breaks how can a dps meter truely be accurate? A monk may out damage a dragoon for most of a dungeon, but one good limit break allowed by party for dragoon could change all of that. Numbers alone wouldnt give the real score.
Lasty there are different buffs that come with the size of party you are in. All of Wows dungeons are 5 man. With most raids being 10. FFXIV has light parties and full parties. So depending on what kind of group you are in your dps will change considerably.
I dont believe meters will ever find there way into FFXIV. This is not a western mmo. Its an mmo that rewards for more than just how much dps a player can do.
In Wow shortly after panda was released my 90 Frost DK was out dps members of my group 70k per sec, to their 40k. Not once did I pull hate from tank. If I did anything near that in FFXIV I would be dead. FFXIV rewards players for being smarter than your average Wow player. Meters would never matter.
+1
There will be mods.
Q: What exactly do you have in mind for community-generated add-ons? Also, how much game data will we be able to utilize?
A: The type of add-on I have in mind are those of the UI persuasion. For example, we can have players customize the UI with a skin of their choice, have enmity displayed graphical, and add windows to view useful information so players will be able to separate information that is otherwise displayed in one large, single window. Add-ons will then become active once they are downloaded and placed in the custom folder. As for the PS3 version, we'll make sure it doesn't trail behind the PC version.
source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/30508-The-Letter-from-the-Producer-LIVE-Part-II-Video-Q-A-Summary-Released%21
im healer i don't care about DPS meter :P
I agree. What happened to the good old days where you figured out DPS by testing on mobs that you previously benchmarked? Too much hand holding these days, and too much begging for hand holding apparently. Like you I thought FFXI was perfect, and anything implemented from XI to XIV would be welcome.
I loved XI too guys, but come on once DPS meters became available for XI many people used them. Also many people in XI were elitist assholes, and the endgame communities were hardly holding hands together in fields of flowers singing songs and hugging eachother. It was fun, lots of people were great, some were not, let's not get carried away with the perfect talk though.
You can't prevent damage meters, people make them third party and it is what it is. However, I hardly think the direction this game is going is "divisive" and will pit people against each other in DPS races. From the sound of it they are doing the best they can to make jobs balanced, and they are removing certain stress inducing features like timed dungeons and "speed runs" for special chests. So people should be able to find communities where they can have fun and not worry about such things if they don't want to.
Personally before XI had parsers I still parsed the log by hand to find out if there was something I could do better. Not so I could brag about it or feel superior to anyone, I just wanted to do what I could to help my LS. People can make the choice to analyze their play if they want to without negatively affecting anyone else.
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Final Fantasy 11 did not have DPS meters, and its still around. It was about what another person posted "Finding a group that clicked" or being part of a Linkshell,and it was a blast.
I have more fun and memorable moments in FF11 than any other MMO I have played. For the simple fact that people did not worry about all the Add-ons you had or IF you did not do at least 1500 dps you could not come to said instance, some how the group just always pulled threw...for the most part
. And thats what a challenge is all about. I even believe there was a log IF you wanted to check in the FF11 files to see your own DPS in a fight.
The community was actually friendly enough back then, people/Linkshells would actually help other players learn their class, and in doing so, later down the road that same person who was taught, would teach. But as some have posted an proven DPS meters can create I want to see if im doing better than you attitude.
People who cant stand to wipe a few time, because people are learning their class or learning the instance/encounter just have lack of patience.
I myself see nothing wrong with DPS and other type of meters as they themselves do nothing but provide accurate information for players to use. Much like nearly anything in MMO gaming there will be elitists that may try to use that information to decide who is good enough to play with them and not. Even if such meters aren't around the same people may decide to use total levels, equipment, experience and anything else in the game that differentiates one person from another. The answer to these people isn't to try and limit the ways they can figure out who makes whatever cut they decide upon as then your just doing nothing but removing elements from the game that can have positive benefits for others. DPS meters wouldn't matter if everyone wore no gear and had 1 spammable dps ability that did exactly the same damage for every class, but it wouldn't exactly be a fun game either. The obvious answer is not to bother with them at all and let them play with their other like minded friends. The only thing you gain by even removing such things is having those same people mixed into your groups and getting upset about things you consider trivial and risking ruining your own fun.
Now about meters not working with FFXIV not having the usual trinity, I think that doesn't make sense. Now if your going for nothing more than 'WHOEVER DOES MOST DAMAGE IS A BETTER PLAYER!' I can see it being an issue but any sane person will realize that the support class probably isn't going to out DPS the pure DPS class. 'Most' cross class comparisons will be rather pointless but what it can do is show people that are skilled at what they are supposed to be doing.
If there was suddenly a new patch releasing a hard new boss and I could only bring along X people. I'm sure I would like to be able to tell that Bard X not only does 20% more DPS than any of the other Bards I've played with but he also does 20% more healing than them as well while having perfect up-time on his buffs, who cares if the dragoons double his DPS every fight as they will be needing the buffs he provides to do that kind of DPS. This is obviously a guy who has learned his class well and someone I'd like to bring along when the group is going to be really pushing themselves. Same thing applies for healing, if I have to run 5 White Mages for a specific boss (I'm just throwing out random numbers of course) and I find that most of them are healing around X HPS all of which are around 10% of each other and then there is a random one doing only like 20% of the healing of any one of the others, I'd like to know. Can give him some possible tips on what he could do to get his numbers up closer to what the other healers are doing and if he just doesn't care and is more into the game for the social aspect then that is fine as well. I wouldn't mind taking him to things that aren't difficult but it'd be a disservice to everyone else if I brought him along on that hard boss Square-Enix just put in.
So in regard to FFXIV I feel that meters could be helpful and the only real downsides stem from specific types of people that will cause problems regardless of the meters themselves. Of course that's not to say 'all' MMO games benefit from such things. GW2 being a rather good example of a game where meters don't actually do anything. Who cares how much damage your doing to the open world dragon encounter. There's no set number of people there to kill it so everyone in the zone can come and help out, it honestly doesn't matter if you suddenly go afk halfway through the fight, you might die but those types of fights are based around the individual, where your not dealing with something you yourself need to rely on others to take care of unless you somehow messed up by not dodging something you should have been able to like everyone else. Even if all but 10 people at the dragon died, the monsters adjust to the number of people around them so those 10 could kill it just as easily as the 100 that started on it.
Now if FFXIV has nothing but mass zerg type group/raid content where you can invite as many people as you want, then sure the meters mean nothing. Grab 50 Bards and you don't need to care about the 5 that wear their hats on their feet and dance through the boss fight as you've got another 35 you could lose before you even need to start worrying. But from what I've heard that doesn't seem to be the case. When you start being forced to make decisions on who you can and can't bring with you, it's nice to have those tools to make choices you feel confident with. Just like I might love that man-thong armor set for it's looks but I probably want to wear the set with 500 armor when I'm fighting something challenging, it's really nice that they actually list the armor on the items for me so I can see which I need to bring along for harder situations. Otherwise I'm just stuck taking my lumps while I try to figure out whats going on.
Kparser, Spyles parser, FFXI log parser, directparse. There were many parsers used by people playing XI, they became popular shortly after they started to pop up everywhere else.
I think you mean that people didn't generally use them when leveling, but many people did actually from 04/05+.
Not to mention the lasting impact of windower on the XI community, a third party program that was truly nefarious. Something that was needed beacuse the game did not support alt+tab, but encouraged all sorts of botting abilities, hacks, auto macros, timers, really a lot of stuff people complain about in WoW but taken to a more cheating-like level in XI.
Third party programs and cheating ruined XI for me, I'm glad you never got to see it. But trust me it was there and it was as bad as it gets.
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Its going to be abused by most people.
They will link it in chat 20 times to show the world how pro they are with dps.
Untill the healer get tired of healing the dps who keeps pulling agro of the tank and let him die.
Then you get the WTF NOOB ? i do best dps and you let me die ? WTF NOOB ? heal me retard ?!
Thanks but no thanks, FF is a little more complicated then spamming 1 2 3 and show wich clas has the most dps potantial while other dps classes needs to buff inbetween dps skills or CC or whatever needs to be done.
The tank will hate this dps for keep pulling aggro and chasing the mob and dps around.
remember this aint wow where the tank cant lose aggro of he just spams 1 buttan.
I have no problem if all people do their job and the dps / healing is shown at the end of the dungeon.
But thats never going to happen.
its best to forget addons that will be abused even if it can come in handy to show how high your dps can be in ideal circumstances.
I played WoW for a extremely long time and i was mostly top dps in dungeons and raids, or very close to the top.
FF just doesnt need that shit as its totaly diffrent in agro / support / dps / healing.
A lot of you DPS meter watchers are in for a rude awakening in FFXIV if boss fights are anything like FFXI. Gonna be a lot of dead DDs laying on the ground because they are not paying attention to what the mob is doing. Should be pretty amusing.
While FFXI did have log parsers, they were used more for bragging rights at the end of a fight and a lot less focus on real-time stats. If we wanted raw data on our output most players used spreadsheets made by the community. This will most likely be what you see in FFXIV as well.
....Is reading comprehension really that bad for folks? Read the OP's post again and try one more time. In fact, read his other posts. mmorpg.com helped you out by making his name all green so you can actually catch it, comprehend and put two and two together. No where did he display the type of individual scared of competition. What he is concerned with is how it effects a community and the environment creates. Which your post illustrates.
And no, you don't NEED the mods. I play FFXI and from what I have seen and played in beta this is a bit similar to that play and I can tell you there is more to damage in this game than those meters will give you. Not to mention you and your party members can tell if you carrying your weight without them. We never had issues understanding that in the past. It was rather obvious who was holding their own and who just tagging along on our coat tails.
With that said, I have no issues with the meters. I don't need them nor care that much like I use to when I raided almost every day. It was more understandable in WoW at that time with 40 people but in FF I wouldn't sweat it much. Nice to have but no necessity for me. I will be looking more for who hits the limit breaks more consistently. That alone tells me the players ability and attention to the fight.
Plus if you are going to be a bard then looking at dps meter is going to prove rather fruitless since you will be buffing more than just doing nothing but dps.
I really really disagree with this..... DPS meters for me at least help improve myself. I could care less how much I'm beating someone. I like to do the best at what I'm doing. So what if I'm a number cruncher, why should this effect you? Maybe just don't download it? You do have options you realize.
He doesn't have much of an option when it comes to the others that download it, obsess over their DPS and start wiping groups because they're too concerned about their numbers... That's the real issue with DPS meters; they cause people to start thinking that DPS is the most important thing, and maybe in WoW it was considering tanks never lost threat, but in this game if any DPS pumps out 100% of their potential they will pull threat and get killed. They simply serve no purpose in this game and will encourage bad play.
I've played nearly every mmorpg out there, including Wow and FFXI. FFXI has remained my favorite of them all because of the great memories I made while playing. The fact is that we live in a different time now. Games have changed and so have the people that play them, not to mention a wider audience of players. I don't think dps meters will effect the community of the game as much as you fear, it will all depend on the people you meet. if you meet people who use a dps meter as a way of proving they are better, those kind of people will just find another way to prove themselves.
Final Fantasy as a genre has also changed. I personally would love to experience the same kind of feeling FFXI gave me, I don't think FF14AAR will deliver. It's a completely different game, and will hopefully be love-able in its own way, with or without DPS meters.
That all depends on the player. Everyone should understand your dps = 0 when you're dead. So pulling aggro, or dying should be the number one thing you try not to do. So in the end it's up to the player dps meter or not isn't going to fix that.
I wonder if everyone caught that there was a definitive answer to the OP's question and it was posted by Striderbob.
There will be Mods.
And FFXI Players, as much as you'd like to convince everyone that FFXI mobs / raids were so much harder than WoW raids... A lot of us (myself included) have done both. You forget who you guys are talking to, this is the haven of super nerds.
FFXI raiding is not some mythical thing, and its not some how so much harder than every other end game raiding guild. I say this as someone who did Sea as a White Mage and as a Nin tank. As someone who raided in WoW from Karazhan until now as all three specs. They aren't that different mechanically. So lets stop with all the posturing please. Thanks.
I've noticed that all the people replying in favor of meters do so because "it's a competition" or "to better themselves" or "to get that extra 5%".
This is a game. The turning of the game into a competition is ruining MY game. There was a funny comic at the front that said it the best. I want to have fun. I want to relax. Yea I want to work to kill something but I also don't want to have to devote my life to gameplay for me to be involved and have fun.
I'm sorry, I'm a grown up. I don't get a summer vacation and sleeping until 10 every day so I can Raid with my buddies until 4-5 in the morning.
Meters, as previously stated so many times, are a slippery slope that ruin games. They establish a number that is use SPECIFICALLY to group people into wanted/not wanted categories. The IDEA of them is awesome, but the reality of the situation is people aren't grown up enough/mature enough to warrant them. Just like GS. I liked the idea of Gear Score. It gave me a rough idea of what I wanted/needed and where I should take my characters as far as progression went. Then it became a "you can't go unless your GS is xxxxx" nevermind that my GS was xxxxx-2. Or that in order to get BETTER gear you had to participate in Raids.
TLDR: Meters aren't bad, people are bad. Until you fix people, you shouldn't have meters.