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MMORPG combat is very stale

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  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnPosts: 2,474Member Uncommon
    My take on this is following:

    "All things have a measure and everything above that measure is harmful"-paraphrase of Paracelsus' famous words.

    How does this apply to MMOs?

    We have too much combat. It isn't like in TES or like in NWN. It is constant, unremmiting slaughter. And some of us have grown tired of that. I am not a pacifist(lol at pacifist+Warhammer fan combo!), but I do think that there should be other things to do in MMOs besides killing. What could they be? Stories, crafting, House decoration/construction, general mode(like the Commander mode in Natural Selection), various other jobs that don't involve fighting(dancing, singing, playing an instrument,...) and so forth.

    We NEED TO REST FROM all that CARNAGE!

    Simple.
  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    My take on this is following:

    "All things have a measure and everything above that measure is harmful"-paraphrase of Paracelsus' famous words.

    How does this apply to MMOs?

    We have too much combat. It isn't like in TES or like in NWN. It is constant, unremmiting slaughter. And some of us have grown tired of that. I am not a pacifist(lol at pacifist+Warhammer fan combo!), but I do think that there should be other things to do in MMOs besides killing. What could they be? Stories, crafting, House decoration/construction, general mode(like the Commander mode in Natural Selection), various other jobs that don't involve fighting(dancing, singing, playing an instrument,...) and so forth.

    We NEED TO REST FROM all that CARNAGE!

    Simple.

    I agree with you that MMOs are exclusively about combat lately. I for one am not saying make combat the only activity, I am saying if it comes to blows, that should be exciting.

    I would love a game that gives experience for diplomacy or artful dodging as well as fighting.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Gorwe
    My take on this is following:"All things have a measure and everything above that measure is harmful"-paraphrase of Paracelsus' famous words.How does this apply to MMOs?We have too much combat. It isn't like in TES or like in NWN. It is constant, unremmiting slaughter. And some of us have grown tired of that. I am not a pacifist(lol at pacifist+Warhammer fan combo!), but I do think that there should be other things to do in MMOs besides killing. What could they be? Stories, crafting, House decoration/construction, general mode(like the Commander mode in Natural Selection), various other jobs that don't involve fighting(dancing, singing, playing an instrument,...) and so forth.We NEED TO REST FROM all that CARNAGE!Simple.
    Well put.

    I would add that having multiple ways to accomplish tasks (quests, missions, what have you) besides killing would be a nice break.

    Anything over-done becomes stale quickly.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    I agree that having a sea of hot bar abilities has become bland. Mostly IMO due to have too many where you just press random ones until the mob dies. If mobs were harder and/or there weren't too many skills it wouldn't seem so mind numbing.

    There is room for innovation to a point. I'd like to see a combination of proccing, reactionary and state change abilities that are diffrerent depending on what is currently happening in a fight. Most games have proccing abilities but do not go farther than a topical level. Aion is the only game I know of to have staged abilities.

    This is one of the reasons I won't mind if more MMOs go to console. If you set up the combat system as stated above, not only would combat be more engaging but you could also have 20-30+ abilities that are easily navigated by a gamepad.
  • XiaokiXiaoki White Pigeon, MIPosts: 2,607Member Uncommon

    The most impressive game shown at E3 for me was The Division.


    Oh no! A console MMOFPS!


    Tab target style combat really cant evolve anymore. I dont mind playing MMOs with tab target combat but nor can I become excited by tab target combat. But after 10+ years of similar combat from dozens of different MMOs its time to move on.

    The recent trend has been to merge some aspects of action combat into tab target to varying degrees like GW2 and Neverwinter but eventually the tab target roots emerge.


    So, is the future of MMO combat real time action/shooting? Definitely.

    The real question is whether or not "MMO veterans" will embrace that future or still be grumpily reminiscing about Everquest and Ultima Online in 2020.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    I disagree that to evolve the combat system HAD to go to action based. There are far too many variations in between. Combat for an MMO IMO has less to do with reticle/tab and more to do with how abilities are used.

    That said my hope is for a hybrid free motion with button or voice activated abilities. To me that's the epitome of player skill.
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel houston, TXPosts: 7,277Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Aelious
    I agree that having a sea of hot bar abilities has become bland. Mostly IMO due to have too many where you just press random ones until the mob dies. If mobs were harder and/or there weren't too many skills it wouldn't seem so mind numbing.

    There is room for innovation to a point. I'd like to see a combination of proccing, reactionary and state change abilities that are diffrerent depending on what is currently happening in a fight. Most games have proccing abilities but do not go farther than a topical level. Aion is the only game I know of to have staged abilities.

    This is one of the reasons I won't mind if more MMOs go to console. If you set up the combat system as stated above, not only would combat be more engaging but you could also have 20-30+ abilities that are easily navigated by a gamepad.

    Vanguard SOH has some classes that have staged abilities.

     

    The problem with abilities in certain circumstances is that you have to be able to plan ahead for these circumstances or then you run into the issue of forcing time constraints in order for abilities to fire, and in those situations, slap a gamepad on it and call it an action game.

     

    Like DCUO, you can string combos together, but in certain situations you need to change your combo on the fly or suffer some consequences.  In Vanguard when completing certain requirements an ability might open up, but if you don't hit it fast enough, you lose the advantage.

     

    I'm all for ability based combat, but if its just firing off abilities in a certain order - that gets into the realm of macro combat, and nothing is more boring than that.

    "Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


    image

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Vanguard does have triggered abilities but like procced ones it's pretty predictable. To have engaging combat you may need to make those tough choices or lose out if too much time goes by. The chains in Aion are a great example of using or skipping abilities depending on your choice.

    IMO the goal is to have some variation between fights. If you can fight a boar (/rimshot), kill it, fight another one and the fight is different that's mission accomplished. Now just do that eight more times :)
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    That is a very limited view.

     

    If FPS just stays FPS, and nothing else, we won't have great hybrid games like Borderlands.

    And there are plenty of MMOFPS (planetside 2, destiny ...) that look like good games.


    I do not care if genres move about a bit. When they forget their roots, and what made them what they are, I get surly.

     

    There are not many MMORPGs anymore. They are all, at best, MMOACG (Action Combat Games). *You* and most new players do not want MMORPGs. They are too slow. Too boring. A waste of time. Not fun.

    Have MMOFPSs, that is a good thing. Have MMOACGs, that is another good thing. Same with MMORTSs and any other conglomeration of MMO letter combos. Just don't forget about MMORPGs.

    You don't care if genres move about .... we do. When they unshackle from their roots, it is where innovations happen. Just like MMOs unshackled the RPG small group root, and change things up.

    Genre, like all things, adapt to survive.

    Text adventures becomes graphical adventures. RPG elements and scripted events were added into FPS. No one argues that DOOM is the pure FPS, and Borderland, a hybrid, should not be produced.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    I agree that having a sea of hot bar abilities has become bland. Mostly IMO due to have too many where you just press random ones until the mob dies. If mobs were harder and/or there weren't too many skills it wouldn't seem so mind numbing.

    There is room for innovation to a point. I'd like to see a combination of proccing, reactionary and state change abilities that are diffrerent depending on what is currently happening in a fight. Most games have proccing abilities but do not go farther than a topical level. Aion is the only game I know of to have staged abilities.

    This is one of the reasons I won't mind if more MMOs go to console. If you set up the combat system as stated above, not only would combat be more engaging but you could also have 20-30+ abilities that are easily navigated by a gamepad.

    To me, it is really not about how many different abilities are there .. it is about whether the abilities are interesting, and whether they have interesting combinations.

    That is combat depth.

    Aside from proc, reactionary, and state change ... i would like to add resource management, which includes CDs. It is interesting to have to decide if i want to use the big ability now, or wait. It is interesting to figure if there is a way to keep regenerating resource and spam certain abilities.

    And i would not forget abilities of the mobs. D3 has good combat not only because there are interesting character abilities, but also mob abilities from CCs, to different type of damages.

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    Narius

    I agree about having global cooldown as well on normal attacks and that having interesting combat is the whole point. I think it's fine to have 20-30 abilities but the way they are delivered could be improved upon.

    Say you're fighting something and get hit from behind. A small bar would appear with a few choices: Aura of Stone, Aura of Rage or Aura of Quickness. I can either buff defense, offense or try to get the heck out of there!

    A player may have 10-12 normal abilities but the other 20 or so abilities would be dependent on what goes on in the fight.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Lol at the you don't like X or want X go play Y is hilarious because its so old.

    I wouldn't mind a Dragon Dogma style system. Where mobs have weakness weak spots and can be scaled.
  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    For me, I want a character who is NOT me. I want random number generators with modifiers deciding my combat, not my own, real life twitch ability. I want my character to be better than I am.For me, that equates to the "overly boring" tab target with auto-attack, where RNGs decide the outcome, not my hand-eye coordination. I want to "play the role" of my character, not vice versa.I understand that this is not "the popular way" anymore, but once, it was...

    Agreed. I think one reason some feel combat is so boring these days is the that there is no real community or comraderie accompanying it. Game mechanics were only half the fun of MMORPGs for me; the people were the other half.



    Originally posted by maplestone
    I can't help but feel that many of the people here saying things are stale are just advocating a different game rather than actually looking for something that doesn't already exist.

    Yep OP is clearly advocating action combat.


    Originally posted by ignore_me
    ...Post on my thread if you agree. If you don't agree then you are a bad person probably with mental problems...


    ROFL that describes this thread pretty well. OP is being a typical IDB to those who disagree.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Aelious
    Narius

    I agree about having global cooldown as well on normal attacks and that having interesting combat is the whole point. I think it's fine to have 20-30 abilities but the way they are delivered could be improved upon.

    Say you're fighting something and get hit from behind. A small bar would appear with a few choices: Aura of Stone, Aura of Rage or Aura of Quickness. I can either buff defense, offense or try to get the heck out of there!

    A player may have 10-12 normal abilities but the other 20 or so abilities would be dependent on what goes on in the fight.

     

    I agree. It is not about the actual number of abilities, but whether a person can cognitively manage the set effectively. D3 is a good example. You can MANY abilities (if you count runes, the list is more than 100). So they split the game into two parts. In the actual combat gameplay, you have only 6 abilities, which most can handle. And you have the meta-game to decide which 6 to use.

    That is one solution. Another is what you mention ... the set changes depending on the situation (actually D3 uses a small version of this too .. if you turn on archon, your ability set changes).

    I think a combination of all those ideas can make interesting combat.

    - a large set to choose from, and you can bring a smaller set into combat

    - the set can change depending on the circumstances (like hit from behind example as you mention)

    - the set can change depending on your state (like if i turn on a "berserk" mode, suddenly i can only use two different abilities).

    I think these variations can make combat deep and adds a lot to the fun.

     

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    My take on this is following:

    "All things have a measure and everything above that measure is harmful"-paraphrase of Paracelsus' famous words.

    How does this apply to MMOs?

    We have too much combat. It isn't like in TES or like in NWN. It is constant, unremmiting slaughter. And some of us have grown tired of that. I am not a pacifist(lol at pacifist+Warhammer fan combo!), but I do think that there should be other things to do in MMOs besides killing. What could they be? Stories, crafting, House decoration/construction, general mode(like the Commander mode in Natural Selection), various other jobs that don't involve fighting(dancing, singing, playing an instrument,...) and so forth.

    We NEED TO REST FROM all that CARNAGE!

    Simple.

    Thank you Gorwe. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Combat has had the opportunity to evolve for 10+ years now while the achievers, explorers and socializers of the big four have been left in the dark. Time to bring some of the other mmoRPG systems up to speed and give combat/killers time to huddle while devs dream up the next step in the evolution.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
     

    Thank you Gorwe. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Combat has had the opportunity to evolve for 10+ years now while the achievers, explorers and socializers of the big four have been left in the dark. Time to bring some of the other mmoRPG systems up to speed and give combat/killers time to huddle while devs dream up the next step in the evolution.

    Combat is the main gameplay focus for a majority of games since the first Ultima and Wizardry. It is not 10+ years .. it is more like 30+ years. Given the industry, it is not going to defocus from combat any time soon.

    Achievers ... they haven't been left in the dark. There is so much progression in MMORPGs. Look at all the progress tracking sites like wowprogress, and wow-heroes. I would say it is the opposite. The achievers are having a field day. Now they can brag from hard mode raid achievements, to gear, to collecting pets.

    Explorers and socializers are getting the short end of the stick. So you are right on that count.

     

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    I find shooter combat stale.  I find point and spastic click of diablo style combat stale.  I never get tired of slower paced, even turn based combat with tab targeting.  Instead of trying to force the genre to change, why not just play a MMOFPS or MMORTS and leave the RPG part of it the hell alone.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    I find shooter combat stale.  I find point and spastic click of diablo style combat stale.  I never get tired of slower paced, even turn based combat with tab targeting.  Instead of trying to force the genre to change, why not just play a MMOFPS or MMORTS and leave the RPG part of it the hell alone.

    Because combat has nothing to do with RPG progression elements.

    You can do a RPG with shooter mechanics (borderland).

    You can do a RPG with RTS mechancis (LoL).

    You can do a RPG with isometric combat (Diablo).

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
     

    Because combat has nothing to do with RPG progression elements.

    You can do a RPG with shooter mechanics (borderland).

    You can do a RPG with RTS mechancis (LoL).  Total War series, Kingdom Under Fire series, Spellforce series, Jagged Alliance series, Fallout Tactics...

    You can do a RPG with isometric combat (Diablo).

    League of Legends is a poor example of an RPG/RTS because they only thing RTS it has is the engine and controls - nothing more. Public is best served by calling it a MOBA. Those listed are better examples of RTS games with RPG elements (or vice versa).

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • Attend4455Attend4455 BirminghamPosts: 161Member
    Originally posted by Murugan
    Originally posted by Piechunks

    Like 2000-1998ish stale. So fucking stale that you could break your teeth on it and it crumbles in your mouth with a bland aftertaste. 

    The recent games, like GW2, TSW and friends have combat that is bland and boring if you've been playing MMOs since EQ/UO, or even before (NWN).

    The latter games sort of mask that fact by making quests a lot more interesting, adding platforming elements, but ... at the end of the day the activity you engage in most in those games is COMBAT.

     

    It's almost a paradox: Why is the combat, the activity you do the most, the weakest? I know it's not easy to implement something really nifty like Chivalry without putting a lot client-side and leaving it vulnerable to hacks. To keep using that as an excuse and adding all of the bells and whistles that TSW and GW2 boast just doesn't seem to make any sense.. to me at least. 

    Is it really that much cheaper to just add more things/tools to spice things up than actually innovate, and/or do people simply not care that much about combat?

    That is the question on my mind that I wish to discuss. So what is your take on the issue, or is there even an issue in your book?

     

     

     

    You are jaded, you should stop playing games altogether.

     

    You will never find another MMO that you enjoy long term EVER.  Just like the sandbox nutjobs you will roam these forums for a decade flaming the current market and holding up some fantastical belief that a new game will BLOW YOU AWAY with its awesome combat features.

     

    People who enjoy games play them for the entire package not one particular THEORY on a feature which only encompasses part of the experience.  Those of us that are real gamers have played countless games that did not have 100% ideal systems as if we had designed them ourselves, and yet we still had great fun and memorable experiences playing them.

     

    I feel sorry for people like you and many others on this forum.  Your standards make it impossible for you to enjoy gaming now or ever, and you are kind of a bore to be around and listen to frankly.

    As a card carrying sandbox nutjob I would like to agree with Murugan.

    Small changes in game mechanics can make a big difference.

    If you are just jaded or burnt out then it's possible you won't find what you are looking for because the problem is you not the game.

    Don't look for the ideal game, you won't find it. Look at the games that are here now and play what you like. If you don't like anything go an read a book, it won't kill you.

     

    I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone

  • Yyrkoon_PoMYyrkoon_PoM Reseda, CAPosts: 150Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    I find shooter combat stale.  I find point and spastic click of diablo style combat stale.  I never get tired of slower paced, even turn based combat with tab targeting.  Instead of trying to force the genre to change, why not just play a MMOFPS or MMORTS and leave the RPG part of it the hell alone.

    Because combat has nothing to do with RPG progression elements.

    You can do a RPG with shooter mechanics (borderland).

    You can do a RPG with RTS mechancis (LoL).

    You can do a RPG with isometric combat (Diablo).

     

    Well in some ways the combat is very much tied to progression in MMORPGs due to the greatest amount of exp being gained by defeating enemies in combat, in a lot of games.  As long as the overall defining character level is tied to exp gained through combat then progression is tied to that system. Until the industry makes games where non-combat character advancement equals combat based advancement then your first point is not actually true.

     

    I am also not an advocate of one fighting mechanic over another, they each have their pros and cons.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Ramonski7
     

    Thank you Gorwe. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Combat has had the opportunity to evolve for 10+ years now while the achievers, explorers and socializers of the big four have been left in the dark. Time to bring some of the other mmoRPG systems up to speed and give combat/killers time to huddle while devs dream up the next step in the evolution.

    Combat is the main gameplay focus for a majority of games since the first Ultima and Wizardry. It is not 10+ years .. it is more like 30+ years. Given the industry, it is not going to defocus from combat any time soon.

    Achievers ... they haven't been left in the dark. There is so much progression in MMORPGs. Look at all the progress tracking sites like wowprogress, and wow-heroes. I would say it is the opposite. The achievers are having a field day. Now they can brag from hard mode raid achievements, to gear, to collecting pets.

    Explorers and socializers are getting the short end of the stick. So you are right on that count.

     

    In the context of the discussion, the focus is on mmorpgs and how combat relates to this genre, not rpgs in general. Actually switching focus off combat may very well be what this genre needs. But I never suggested that they abandon all development on combat systems, just refocus more effort on fleshing out systems for other types of mmorpg players. And from the responses from this very thread, it seems like combat junkies are growing either bored, irritated or downright tired of all the gimmicky features devs cook up to try to spice things up for mmorpg combat.

     

    So don't get me wrong, I understand combat is one of the main systems that make up a mmorpg, just like I understand a smart phone's main feature is talking, but it's not the only feature, nor is it always the feature that holds the most appeal to every smart phone user.

     

    And if you think for one second that achievers are that one dimensional (and under the same breathe defend killers by championing multiple combat systems), then you don't know jack about achieving. Everything you mention in your achiever spiel up there covers achievers who are content with combat related achievements. What about builders, crafters, artist and authors? While combat gets more and more focus, these other systems get thrown to the wayside without any thought. Like all mmorpgs players like combat, combat, combat.

     

    Until fans of this genre recognize that all players deserve equal respect from the devs in this field, you can count on more and more "fans" growing disoriented with what's happening and not being able to put a finger on what seems to be missing from the equation. I can tell you right now...it's that itch coming from their Achiever, Socializer and Explorer sides.

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnPosts: 2,474Member Uncommon

    Combat actually has got a LOT to do with RP:

    Does my character like brawn, brains or speed(Might, Magic and stealth{?})?
    Let's say he likes Magic(now I'll use, hmmm, DnD{I'd use Warhammer example but 90% of you wouldn't understand that :P}example):
    Does he like Evocation/Invocation, Conjuration/Summoning or Transmutation?
    Let's say he likes E/I:
    Does he use it for offense or defense?
    Let's say offense:
    Which element(classical four)?
    ...

    See that it does :P.

    Anyhow, this is directed to all those that quoted me. Thank you is in order. Now, yes I am mostly explorer and socialiser{ESa_ to be exact-Moon in Saggitarius and all that :D} and I feel pointless in today's MMOs. There is nothing(well mostly) to be explored and the socialising is brought down to its knees before the LF Almighty. I don't play games to Beat other people(in any conceivable game), nor do I play them to basically commit ethnical purging(lol). Should those elements be present in MMOs? They better be! But so should joint projects(stuff you can do only with a close group of friends-not talking about dungeons here. They are not a S thing a long time now{they are more like A/K kind of thing now}) AND untamable wildernesses be present. When I say untamable wildernesses-I mean that they should incite that wanderlust in explorer types(the question: "What's beyond the horizon/next door?" applies here).

    You get the idea. Today's MMOs(they should be AEKS): a_K_

    Just sad.

    edit: in conclussion to Ramonski:

    An MMO is never going to be an MMORPG until the devs learn the wisdom behind four Bartle letters(here's a free hint: they all have to be represented, as I said AEKS ideally. But aEKs or AeKs would wotk as well-different focuses really. a_K_ is just a sign of a sick genre). Not a nanosecond before that!

  • VorthanionVorthanion Laguna Vista, TXPosts: 2,119Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    I find shooter combat stale.  I find point and spastic click of diablo style combat stale.  I never get tired of slower paced, even turn based combat with tab targeting.  Instead of trying to force the genre to change, why not just play a MMOFPS or MMORTS and leave the RPG part of it the hell alone.

    Because combat has nothing to do with RPG progression elements.

    You can do a RPG with shooter mechanics (borderland).

    You can do a RPG with RTS mechancis (LoL).

    You can do a RPG with isometric combat (Diablo).

     

    The problem you seem to ignore is the fact that character progression is directly tied to combat by means of stats.  Instead of using twitch skills, RPG's have traditionally tied character stats and skills into the combat system.  Remove that element and it completely changes the gameplay that many of us prefer.

    image
  • VincerKadenVincerKaden Edison, NJPosts: 457Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    I don't find the combat stale, and enjoy the action combat mmos. What I find gets stale is the reason you're fighting at all.

    Exactly this, for me.

    "Oh, hello Quest Giver. You say skeletons are invading the village? And if I go kill 10, you say that the village is saved? Okay!"

    *10 skeletons die*

    "Hmm... doesn't look like anything's changed. There's just as many skeletons. But look... no one in the village is dying either. So we're good here? I'll see you around. Well... no... I'll never be back to this hub actually. But thanks for this amazing magic sword and +2 Earring of Agility."

    image

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