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MMORPG combat is very stale
Piechunks
Member Posts: 136
Like 2000-1998ish stale. So fucking stale that you could break your teeth on it and it crumbles in your mouth with a bland aftertaste.
The recent games, like GW2, TSW and friends have combat that is bland and boring if you've been playing MMOs since EQ/UO, or even before (NWN).
The latter games sort of mask that fact by making quests a lot more interesting, adding platforming elements, but ... at the end of the day the activity you engage in most in those games is COMBAT.
It's almost a paradox: Why is the combat, the activity you do the most, the weakest? I know it's not easy to implement something really nifty like Chivalry without putting a lot client-side and leaving it vulnerable to hacks. To keep using that as an excuse and adding all of the bells and whistles that TSW and GW2 boast just doesn't seem to make any sense.. to me at least.
Is it really that much cheaper to just add more things/tools to spice things up than actually innovate, and/or do people simply not care that much about combat?
That is the question on my mind that I wish to discuss. So what is your take on the issue, or is there even an issue in your book?
Comments
Most game combat is "stale" if you've been playing games your entire life. But in regards to MMO combat, minor changes can change the way people perceive combat.
Personally I think DCUO still has the best MMO combat even after all this time, and even with the sometimes faulty targeting and animation cancelling.
I don't disagree.
But there are a couple of ways to improve upon combat:
- go the FPS route .. there are quite a few MMOFPS now.
- go the action RPG route. NWO is trying to do that a bit. Obviously it can be done better. Marvel Heroes goes the full Diablo combat route (but not as polished as D3, or Incredible Adventure of Van Helsing), and you can argue it is not a "real" MMO.
- STO has interesting ship combat. It is still tab targeting, but you have to deal with facing and turning rate ... it is interesting and different compared to other MMO toon based combat (although the ground combat is nothing to write home about).
You are jaded, you should stop playing games altogether.
You will never find another MMO that you enjoy long term EVER. Just like the sandbox nutjobs you will roam these forums for a decade flaming the current market and holding up some fantastical belief that a new game will BLOW YOU AWAY with its awesome combat features.
People who enjoy games play them for the entire package not one particular THEORY on a feature which only encompasses part of the experience. Those of us that are real gamers have played countless games that did not have 100% ideal systems as if we had designed them ourselves, and yet we still had great fun and memorable experiences playing them.
I feel sorry for people like you and many others on this forum. Your standards make it impossible for you to enjoy gaming now or ever, and you are kind of a bore to be around and listen to frankly.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
I don't play MMORPGs for their combat. There are much better genres that do this so much better. I've never really understood why players look to MMORPGs for their combat fixes...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Because combat is 90% of MMO gameplay .. raids, dungeon runs, arena, battleground, and even quests in the world are about combat.
All the non-combat MMOs (tales in the dessert, SIMS online ..) are either very niche or crash-n-burn.
What else can you play MMORPG for? I doubt many play MMORPGs for housing, or slow travel.
Do yourself a favor.
Replay the games like GW2, NWN, Tera, etc. (TSW's combat is actually quite bad in a lot of ways). Then go back and actually play an MMO from 2000/1998. If you can't see the difference you need to turn off the computer and go outside.
I've also been playing MMOs since UO, and there has been quite a big jump between the MMOs today and the ones back then. Combat has gotten MUCH more active (good luck trying to dodge in UO), it's also gotten more complex in many ways. There's been a pretty huge shift away from passives-oriented combat. Furthermore quite a few games nowadays feature more combo-oriented combat. A trend that was start in FFXI with the renkei system.
I had a lot of fun with the games from 2000, but when it comes to MMOs especially I realize that many of those games are just archaic by today's standards. Not only would the combat not hold up at all, but many of the mechanics would just feel bland compared to today's games. It's the nostalgia telling you differently.
Oddly enough I do agree. GW2 and TSW combat is by far the weakest part in either game, going for action based combat but feeling like a slippery mess.
Still, Tera works as a good example of doing action combat right, or at the very least pushing it in the right direction. While I feel it could be improved for sure, it did the core element of combat right, even if other areas are a bit lack luster unfortunately. In the end though, I think Tera shows also that combat can't be the only factor in the game. Combat IS a huge part yes, but it needs other elements as well. Unfortunately as well... people will even protest against systems that might involve more innovation in how its handled. I remember cries and cries about being rooted in Tera which to me is just insane that 'rooting' is a killer, considering it not only makes combat feel more responsive, but it adds an element of skill that when done right can really make combat vastly better. Look at GW2 and how its auto attacks and moving around makes it extremely floating and weakens the combat greatly.
I feel that there are plenty of stale combat mechanics, but there still are some attempting to push the envelop. Neverwinter might of found a good balance to try and lure some more into a different style of combat mixing the two better then GW2 did, but its still has work to go and there needs to be more steps to get casual players into more skill based combat that is more advanced.
MMO gameplay perhaps, not MMORPG gameplay. MMOFPS gameplay, for sure, not MMORPG.
What you say is true, though. 80-90% of MMORPG gameplay is all about combat. I have listed many, many times before why *I* play MMORPGs (I need a stinkin' world!"). They do not coincide with *your* reasons (I don't need no stinkin' world!"). What you find boring, I find fun and interesting. What *you* seek out (combat, combat, combat) *I* try to avoid as much as possible.
You're in the majority. Gratz.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
+1
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
RPG's come from table-top, dice-rolling games. Your character's success depends largely on dice-rolls, not on how well you handle the mouse/keyboard/controller. I loved EQ combat, and had fun mashing buttons, watching results in the text window; and also had time to talk to the group, guild, or even in the chat channel. If you find these activities boring, don't blame the genre.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Don't take this the wrong way, but by your own reasoning, you should stop reading the forums.
No offense, but I'll continue to do what I want independent of the opinions and desires of people on the internet who I frankly don't care about.
TSW was quite bad, I don't disagree with that. GW2 had something going on but was ultimately rather "meh". it is fairly hard to find a game you really, really enjoy these days (although MMO combat has always sucked).
There are few nuggets of gold here and there tho. Don't lose hope. You're not alone.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Well ditto and yet here you are with your thread, in your authoritative voice, talking about how "stagnant" the industry is. You then ask what others think the issue is, I responded. You are jaded.
Of course you can continue posting here for the next decade about how much everything is SH*T ARRRGH WHY WON"T THEY LISTEN TO ME!!!! I don't happen to see the point of all that, but you'll get people agreeing with you that life is a black empty void with nothing but disappointment and sorrow, and that is what you likely wanted anyways.
I'll leave you to it, have "fun".
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. Have a nice day.
+1, If I want a FPS, I will play it, I do not want my mmo to be more FPS, than mmorpg. IF people have their way, mmorpgs will be gone, for the sake of bam bam boom boom.
Well OK, but what exactly do you want from an MMO then in the combat department?
its interesting, coming from a tabletop old school background i was not terribly excited by the idea of 'action combat' in games like TERA and the like. i have always kept my fps's in a separate container than my rpg's.
however, lately that has begun to change. bouncing between Defiance and Rift the past couple of weeks i have found that in Rift i miss being able to do something as simple as take cover behind a tree or rock. and in Defiance i miss the rpg abilities to really hide, as in a skill set, from the enemy.
at this point, i would have to say that my tastes have changed.
but, this is important: rpg's make up for exactly what action combat requires, real ability. i play rpg's b/c i am most certainly not a skilled opponent in combat with lightning reflexes, i am not a magical hero with the ability to calculate the jump fall ratio needed in order to leap roof top to vehicle seat. i am not a hero, nor do i bear any resemblance to one.
so how do we include both action combat which allows for far more strategic thinking in combat scenarios and yet make up for the lack of heroic dexterity and decision making that the majority of us lack, but which rpg's make up for with skills, levels, and the like?
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse
So do you have an opinion on the matter (MMORPG combat), or did you just come here to complain about my dissatisfaction (like some others have)?
What..... who asked for that specifically? Since you are complaining about people afflicted with ADHD, I must ask: why did you lack effort/willingness to read my initial post?
Thank you. Finally a post offering some insight and not just an opinion! I agree with the aspect/tradeoff of skill vs. planning (skillset required for most RPGs traditionally).
Perhaps as an alternative, combat could be made more to appeal to people who aren't skilled and add some more strategic options; a skill tree unlocked by performing a move, or a long sequence of moves you had to plan ahead of time with the only skill component being when to unlock them.
... or better yet include viable options for both types of players: include a class or two that involves FPS targeting, while one requires strategy.
Some games like AoC and to a far lesser degree (e.g. archer/necro/mage), Tera did something to this extent by making casters somewhat tab-target friendly.. at least compared to the other classes.
You are free to feel dissatisfied and voice it.I was merely pointing out a factor that may prevent MMORPG combat from changing.
I personally still find traditional MMORPG combat fine but have no objection to other combat systems as long as the game is fun.
This is all relative. There really aren't very many combat systems that are "new". The closest you'll get are hybridized combat systems. Everyone touted how great TERA's combat was, but the truth is, I was playing TERA's combat way back in early 2000 on the Dreamcast with Phantasy Star Online.
The point is, if you deviate too much from what is familiar, you end up with a niche style of RPG combat. As stated previously, DCUO has quite possibly the most interesting combat for an Action-MMO-RPG ( and it is an MMORPG with raids, open world PvP, guilds, Crafting, and Housing). But one of the issues with the major upgrade in mobility and combat was that so many traditional RPG players couldn't keep up.
Go back to when Tabula Rasa was released and you see another hybridized combat model, resembling a more open FPS style of combat with a fixed skill system. That game had dynamic PvE events that people didn't appreciate until GW2 made it their crowning achievement. The combat was pretty enjoyable, though it had its share of problems -- yet it didn't bring a large following.
In that sense you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. There are games out right now with different combat. You just have to look for them, and then, of course, play them.
now that's an interesting thought because it actually brings up an older form of rpg combat like skill chains. you had to have the reaction time to use them, but if you got that right the skills would fill in the rest rewarding you with the dramatic jump, fly, slam, aoe combos that we all love to watch.
i would certainly be open to a game that could somehow not gimp me for my lack of manual dexterity, but that still allowed for that action combat strategy needed in order to survive.
you mentioned AoC and while it was a small learning curve i think they were on to something there: reactions + rpg skills.
also, which class did you think would be the best example of this in TERA (i think is what you meant). i have it installed and would like to mess around with that a bit to see more of what you're suggesting.
"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse