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The Modern MMORPG.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    There are such games .. Eve, DF, Earthrise ...

    The market is just not big enough for more AAA developments.

    Personally i would rather have a large amount of people .. quitting 2 months don't concern me .. i may not stay that long. I don't want to play the same game for years to come. That is boring.

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon

    Phenomenal post, OP, and I agree with everything you say. Also hoping Camelot Unchained and EQN gives us something special.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • NeckzNeckz Norfolk, VAPosts: 3Member
    Originally posted by Mkilbride
     
     

    Personally, I've never been a fan of raids in MMORPGs. Especially the large ones. They are a mess, they end up not being fun, and usually end as a waste of time. To many people to manage, people can play badly, it doesn't matter, they make up for it with quantity.

     

    Define "large raid". If you don't prefer raids, that's a personal decision. You sound like a group-going casual player. And there's nothing wrong with that.

    In my opinion, there's absolutely a place for larger raids. I'm referring less to zergy, walk-on PUG's where there's no player-driven skill or gear check (send /tell for invite) and wipes are frequent. But more so organized, skilled, high-level players working together and communicating to progress through difficult content. If you enjoy small-scale, group-oriented gameplay, that's totally cool. But there are people that seek the opposite: aspiring for a high-end raiding guild, accomplishing the most difficult encounters of the game, and enjoying some phat lewtz and in-game glory on the side.

     

     I've never thought of raiding as "End-game" either, and I'm sad that is what people think it is these days. You do these raids, at max level, to get better gear...to do more raids...for gear...that serves no purposes outside of raids, because it's super powerful and makes anything not a raid a joke really.

     

    You wouldn't because you're coming from the perspective of a casual, group-going gamer that, for whatever reason, avoids raiding. Raiding is absolutely a facet to "endgame", in that it's another fun way to keep players coming back and give them active, difficult, competitive goals to aspire to. While some games have deep crafting and "large, dynamic events" as endgame, there's nothing quite like traditional MMORPG endgame: joining a team of other like-minded players and really spending weeks / months on content, getting better gear (rewards for hard work), and knowing you're associated with other competent players (e.g. the allure of being in a well-respected guild). 

     

     I'm ok with Dungeons. You know, 4-6 people, each player has to play his role perfectly to insure victory. Everyone gets something worth getting for their troubles. Not just one person. That's dumb. 

     

    In a team-oriented environment, when you're playing through the most difficult content (within a high-end raiding guild), it's less about you and more about the team. Your turn will come. There are many factors that determine loot distribution. It's probably a good thing you're not interested in raiding, because you'd be that guy whining non-stop about not getting loot - no offense. :) But, seriously, at that level of competition, you just have to realize that the better you get, the faster you work as a team, the more efficiently you progress through content, opening up the door for more and more gear. You have to be patient.

     

     Expansions come and raise the level cap, making all previous gear worthless and all old content abandoned. I don't get it. Why raise the level cap, just to make it seem like you've added more content than you have? GW1, is a perfect example of a game that never raised it's level cap, it provided multiple expansions and add-ons, featuring new skills, gear, loot, ect, and nothing from the old games was made worthless or not yet doing. All places had people to do content. The world felt very connected. We had none of "This is the largest threat to the world in 10,000 years, but by next expansion this Dungeon can be solo'ed" 

     

    I don't have an issue with this. Expansions are usually few and far-between; years apart. The game must go on, right?

     

    I like the leveling experience with other people. Fighting challenging enemies that aren't just DPS to death. Ones that use skills, tactics, ect, every fight is a challenge, not just another mob to mow down. It makes it feel like you're making progress. I played GW2 and did one of it's "raids", and boy...was that a very unfun, time consuming experience, that netted me no worthwhile rewards. I'd have been OK if the content in itself was fun and interesting. It was not. Ones that make you learn your class, that type of fight is what I want. Most MMOs these days you don't need to learn your class til "End-game" or "Raids", which is dumb. You should be learning your class as you level - yet most MMORPGs do not require that these days.

     

    You're not alone. Everyone likes playing with friends. Those can be the best moments. I agree about GW2, that game was such a let down.

     

     I don't understand the desirability of a gear treadmill. You work hard, get this cool piece of loot, half a level later, you've found a random drop that is better. Or they release an expansion and make all previous gear worthless, even of some was "Legendary" and considered the strongest of the strongest in the lore, it is now weaker than a generic dagger 5 levels above it.

     

    Have you ever played in a high-end, competitive guild? For most games, the hardest content is max level, so you're not leveling up as you progress through the content for weeks / months. Yes, 6 months to a year later (or more), when expansion hits, your gear will be irrelevant (for the most part), but expansions happen. This isn't new. People are aware; we anticipate it. It's new content, new puzzles, new challenges, new dilemmas. The gear treadmill isn't that big of an issue.

     

     I like a long leveling process that requires the help of others. With interesting enemies. A game without Soulbound loot, so you can sell your old gear, or give it to someone who needs it, there's a sense of attachment to items this way.  It helps breed a friendly, mature community when the game encourages you to help others in such ways.

     

    Yep, like I said, you're a casual gamer who not interested in raiding, and there's nothing wrong with that. You can't understand the allure of "endgame raiding" because you've never done it. I'm actually willing to bet you've been involved in some zergy PUG "raids" that have jaded the hell out of you! :) You seem like you play to be great at your class; aspire to join a larger, top guild for the next MMO you play. Join them and experience a new facet to the game: selflessness, dedication, teamwork and the glory of doing hard stuff that others can't.

     

     Why are MMORPGS larger than ever, yet feel more closed off than ever? It's a conundrum. it irks me to no end. I look back at hte MMORPGs of yesteryear fondly, thinking "It must just be my rose-tinted glasses". Then I go and play them again for a month to see if it was...it wasn't, they are still great games, with wonderful communities and a more interesting and interactive world than almost all the MMORPGs in the last decade. I don't even realize when 3-4 hours have slipped by. While in a modern MMO, I'm looking at the clock constantly.

     

    Because modern day MMO's use that immersion-breaking, garbage trend of instancing EVERYTHING. I'm OK with instanced dungeon runs, but having MULTIPLE instances for a single area / zone? It's horrible.

     

     We have MMORPGs in abundance that leave us in want. The very nature of the MMORPG cries out for the social interaction of all players, and yet we've closed ourselves in. We only come together for Raids or Dungeons, or some kind of World Boss. The very thought of partying outside of these acts is met with "Meh...it'll only make us level slower, and I'll get less loot..."

     

    I agree. The social dynamic is imperative. Alongside immersion, they are both the core foundation of an MMO, in my opinion. Since WoW, when a lot of the traditional MMO "hassles" have been removed in favor of instant gratification elements, we're seeing less people grouping up. Subsequently, less interaction, which leads to not "making friends" (or enemies). A numb feeling, just running around, solo, questing. The game world feels detached. Add instanced servers everywhere, and you feel like you're playing on ghost servers. All because a few people cried about not getting enough loot or experience back in 2004, so they've catered all MMO's for "solo play".

     

    Then the "Level questing" designed to shuffle you from place to place. You learn to just accept these quests, as there are dozens, and usually the dialogue is awful. You go out and kill 5 of these, collect 10 of those, and craft 3 of that. You then turn all your quests in and level up. You don't explore the zones. You don't get lost in the world,. It's a waste of time usually, because questing is designed to show you only the carefully crafted areas that they want you to see. Areas that usually don't involve quests are poorly designed or hell, not even there.  You see other players, but they don't want to talk, or don't respond, they're to busy accepting quests and turning them in to get XP and junk loot that'll be replaced by dropped loot 10 minutes from then.

     

    I was OK with this when WoW was released. I think everyone was. It was new, fresh. It made sense. But, I agree, it's gotten out of hand. Every MMO clone since has done the same and it's become trite.

     

     Why are we more connected than ever, yet MMORPG's have never felt more like a Singleplayer game? Hell, even MUDS felt more like a multiplayer game than most MMOs these days.

     

    You hit the nail on the head. It's because MMO's have slowly evolved to cater to players' wants and desires. The MMO producers and developers have lowered the standards, in a strategic move to get more people to play the game (i.e. for the company to make money). If we give them more of what they want, in less time, it will attract more customers and, possibly, keep them around for longer. It makes sense. But, in the wake of WoW and the current crop of WoW-clones, it's obvious that MANY of us are still longing for "the good old days" when you really had to put in the time and effort to get the gear you wanted. Many people played EverQuest, for YEARS, and couldn't experience the pinnacle of vanilla EQ. What does that tell you about the game!? 

     

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • MMORPGRIPMMORPGRIP Canton, OHPosts: 90Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months

     

  • yangdudeyangdude Gold CoastPosts: 71Member

    Sorry I didn't read the whole post cause I had a thought and didn't want to lose it.

    This thread seems to be loosely looking at two separate issues: Number one is the apparent difference between the 'new generation' and 'old generation' of gamer.  Number two is the end-game of MMO's.

     

    1 - I totally disagree that there is one specific group of people who want a quick shallow reward and then move on, while another group will immerse themselves into a game for a long time and work slowly towards the rewards.  What I believe is that a large group of people have ONLY been subjected to the quick shallow game - take Neverwinter for example - the latest thing right and yet its about 10% of what the old Perfect World game was and still is.  There are probably many thousands of people who now think Neverwinter is what an MMO is supposed to be (personally I think its garbage and I uninstalled it yesterday btw)

    Now, this generation of players are also the ones that made Minecraft such a phenomenon.  And what is Minecraft but something you have to constantly work at to get the rewards you want.  The game gives you the raw building blocks but you need to do the work.  So given the right platform, this new generation of gamer WILL knuckle down, focus, stay immersed and work towards a goal.  As I said though many new MMO's don't seem to offer this ideal. 

     

    2 - I've been thinking about this whole end-game question a lot lately, as have many of you all I guess.  What causes longevity?  What will keep you coming back into a game?  

    I like using Perfect World as a measuring stick because it got so many things right and one HUGE thing wrong.  IF Perfect World DIDN'T introduce the last tier of gears (rank 9) that could be bought with real money, then I believe it would be absolutely thriving.  PWI obviously made the choice of quick cash v long term rewards, when they introduced it.  And it really killed the game.  Since they introduced Rank 9 there have been many upgrades.  If those upgrades occurred before hand, and rank 9 was never introduced, then many thousands of people wouldn't have quit. 

    So lets say you get to end game - some months later you have awesome gear.  The big question that devs need to work out, is what do players do now.   Either they need content that is awesome fun, or they need content that still allows players to work towards a goal - but what goal - that's the big question.  By the sounds of it WOW just introduces newer gear periodically.  Perfect World has PVP in Nation Wars and many people actually just sign on, on the days Nation Wars is on, play for the 2hrs it takes and sign off again.  So, to me, that's a fail as nothing keeps people in the game outside of these times.

    I have this idea that to some degree a complex system of housing (boating etc) could be the final frontier.  Imagine if you walked the landscape of an MMO - over there is a small hut - you know they haven't put much time into their house - and over there on the horizon are the flags flying on the parapets of a castle, which you know is player built, by someone at end game making the biggest statement of success they can. 

    This is what I see as end-game anyway.  Something else to do when you have awesome gear - the option to build and create - but where everything you need to build and create CANT be bought in a cash shop - it must be farmed by you, or you buy from players who farm the materials and sell to you - so lower level can benefit from your success as well.  And the system needs to include methods whereby you can lose it all over time if your not careful - just like real life. 

    That's my two cents anyway.  Adios.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • steamtanksteamtank Rochester, NYPosts: 385Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    city of heroes =(

    it had a great community

  • tasingtasing Oregon, ORPosts: 5Member
    Oh,,, thanks for sharing your thoughts, but everyone of us has different perspective and of course there are some features of the game that works for some but in general we have our own perpective and likes about a certain games that we like.
  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member
    Originally posted by steamtank
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    city of heroes =(

    it had a great community

    I always thought LOTRO had a great community as well. At least it did when I played (a while ago truthfully).

  • MMORPGRIPMMORPGRIP Canton, OHPosts: 90Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    Exactly my point. In a MODERN MMORPG, you won't find one, or will have a hard time finding one anyway. Especially since they aren't built around creating one with features that detract from it and make them unnecessary anymore.
     

    Such as the ability to solo to cap, ability to buy mercs (AI team mates), easy game play (No need for others), in game map GPS to everything (No need to ask others questions), etc, etc, etc.

    BTW, MMORPG's I have played with decent communities (Of course not perfect, but WELL above anything now)...

    - EQ1

    - Vanguard

    - AoC

    - Eve Online

    - LotRO

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP

    BTW, MMORPG's I have played with decent communities (Of course not perfect, but WELL above anything now)...

    - EQ1

    - Vanguard

    - AoC

    - Eve Online

    - LotRO

    Four of those five would be considered 'modern era' games, wouldn't they?

    Does the modern era begin in 2003, or 2004?

    (It occurs to me that we're about 'due' to draw another arbitrary line across the timeline and begin a new 'era'. Need a big big target game to love or hate, I guess, and then the WoW players can begin their shift as the curators of the disgruntled veterans mourning shroud).

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • NeckzNeckz Norfolk, VAPosts: 3Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    ...and then the WoW players can begin their shift as the curators of the disgruntled veterans mourning shroud).

    Brilliant! LOL

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    I don't really need to find a single good community because i can always bring my friends to a game. Few play only one game anyway.

     

  • MuruganMurugan D, COPosts: 1,494Member

    OP complains about "multiplayer interactivity" in MMO's today, then goes on to bash raiders and raiding for wanting to enjoy content TOGETHER in larger groups.

     

    "I don't want to live on this planet anymore"

     

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by steamtank
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    city of heroes =(

    it had a great community

    Played it.  Didn't really think so.  Sorry.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    Exactly my point. In a MODERN MMORPG, you won't find one, or will have a hard time finding one anyway. Especially since they aren't built around creating one with features that detract from it and make them unnecessary anymore.
     

    Such as the ability to solo to cap, ability to buy mercs (AI team mates), easy game play (No need for others), in game map GPS to everything (No need to ask others questions), etc, etc, etc.

    BTW, MMORPG's I have played with decent communities (Of course not perfect, but WELL above anything now)...

    - EQ1

    - Vanguard

    - AoC

    - Eve Online

    - LotRO

    But that's the whole problem, the game doesn't make the community, the community makes the game and the community that so many people say that they want simply does not exist anywhere and never will again.  The features of the game have no bearing whatsoever on the community.  Old school games have the same crappy community that new ones do.

    I've played most of the games you've listed and, without exception, I thought they all had rotten communities.  I fundamentally dislike the modern-day player who races to endgame, who uses anyone they can to get ahead and who would rather stab you in the back than help a fellow player.  It wasn't the  gameplay that made people that way, it was the people who demanded gameplay change to cater to them.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    I don't really need to find a single good community because i can always bring my friends to a game. Few play only one game anyway.

     

    I have exactly 3 friends who play MMOs anymore and they all play WoW exclusively.  Everyone else has given up.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months


    And the population grows from word-of-mouth. Eve is a perfect example. Plus, EQ's subs continually grew through Planes of Power. By then its viral growth was stiffled by major changes to the game, primarily, as well as other factors.


    WoW did have 4x the north american sub numbers of EQ1, but the big difference is that SOE stupidly relied on word-of-mouth, whereas Blizzard smartly advertised everywhere and constantly.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    Right - we are better than them. No, old school gamers are not better - different. Old school gamers are not loyal especially when bored. You feel you have to play if paying a sub, I know I did.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • MMORPGRIPMMORPGRIP Canton, OHPosts: 90Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by c0exist
    What these developers also do not realize is that those of us for lack of a better term, "old school gamers" are the best type of consumers.  Yes appealing to a mass market is great, but in this case its foolish not to at least have one game that is somewhat similar to a classic style mmoprg.  I cant speak for everyone, but I am quite loyal when I find a game I like and will pay upward of up to $40/month for a great game.  So would you rather have a large amount of people that will quit within 2 months or have a much smaller steady group that will call your game home for years to come.  You build a better community this way.  Just my opinion.   

    You don't make money building communities, you make money appealing to large numbers of consumers.  MMOs, whether you like it or not, are a business and businesses exist to make money.  They always have and they always will.  If you can get a million people to play your game for 2-3 months, that's a better financial position than if you can get 200,000 people to play for 5-6 months.  You might be willing to pay a lot for a game, but you are in a tiny minority.  Find a couple million people like you and I'm sure the developers will listen, but not until.

    When you have a good community (And game play), people tend to stay for YEARS.....not mere months

     

    You be sure to let us all know when you find a single good community because I don't think such a thing exists in any modern game on the planet.

    Exactly my point. In a MODERN MMORPG, you won't find one, or will have a hard time finding one anyway. Especially since they aren't built around creating one with features that detract from it and make them unnecessary anymore.
     

    Such as the ability to solo to cap, ability to buy mercs (AI team mates), easy game play (No need for others), in game map GPS to everything (No need to ask others questions), etc, etc, etc.

    BTW, MMORPG's I have played with decent communities (Of course not perfect, but WELL above anything now)...

    - EQ1

    - Vanguard

    - AoC

    - Eve Online

    - LotRO

    But that's the whole problem, the game doesn't make the community, the community makes the game and the community that so many people say that they want simply does not exist anywhere and never will again.  The features of the game have no bearing whatsoever on the community.  Old school games have the same crappy community that new ones do.

    I've played most of the games you've listed and, without exception, I thought they all had rotten communities.  I fundamentally dislike the modern-day player who races to endgame, who uses anyone they can to get ahead and who would rather stab you in the back than help a fellow player.  It wasn't the  gameplay that made people that way, it was the people who demanded gameplay change to cater to them.

    Partially agree and disagree.

     

    Agree with players can make a community true.

    But disagree that the game's mechanics/features do not make up a large portion of why MMORPG's can or cannot have a good community. Again...look at what I listed in the last post. When there is no need to communicate or require other player's help...almost no one will go out of their way (Modern MMORPG players and/or games) to make one or try and be sociable.

     

    Player these days are lazy and greedy. Most will only communicate or are willing to help if there is something in it for them. Sorry...call it biased and me an old school grouch...but it's not...it's what I have seen having tried almost all of these modern MMORPG's. It's a pattern from personal observation.

     

    I still practice the same courtesy and helpfulness I did when I played EQ. But sadly...it's rarely returned.

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP

    Agree with players can make a community true.

    But disagree that the game's mechanics/features do not make up a large portion of why MMORPG's can or cannot have a good community. Again...look at what I listed in the last post. When there is no need to communicate or require other player's help...almost no one will go out of their way (Modern MMORPG players and/or games) to make one or try and be sociable.

     

    Player these days are lazy and greedy. Most will only communicate or are willing to help if there is something in it for them. Sorry...call it biased and me an old school grouch...but it's not...it's what I have seen having tried almost all of these modern MMORPG's. It's a pattern from personal observation.

     

    I still practice the same courtesy and helpfulness I did when I played EQ. But sadly...it's rarely returned.

    The problem is, it isn't the mechanics that change the people.  I don't have the slightest interest in communicating with most people in an MMO because, except for running around in a fantasy world, I have absolutely nothing in common with them, nor they with me.   That's what made for good communities back in the UO/EQ days, just about everyone who played was a geek and we all had things in common.  You could count on getting into almost any PUG and everyone would have something to talk about.  Everyone could quote Monty Python.  Everyone could talk about D&D.  Everyone could talk about Star Wars.  Now, that's not the case.  When MMOs went mainstream, the community was fragmented from a  generally homogeneous group to thousand of little sub-cultures that had little or nothing in common.  That's why nobody talks in a game, they have nothing to talk about.  That's why people want to solo, because it's better than dealing with the uncomfortable silences in a PUG.  the mechanics have adapted to the players, not the other way around.

    And I agree, I'm a courteous guy in a game but I'm usually the only one.  I remember sitting around as a fixer in AO crafting for people for free.  If you bring me the components, I'll make you anything I can.  However, people started getting rude, expecting me to drop whatever I was doing to buff them or craft for them.  I had people cussing at me because I was too busy to do what they wanted.  We have a society today that is entitlement-happy, they think they should get things just because they bothered  to wake up in the morning.  You cannot fix this with game mechanics, you have to fundamentally change the society that these gamers come from.

    That's the problem and why no game that comes out is ever going to be significantly better than what we see today.  The games are fine.  The people are assholes.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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  • Skeeter50Skeeter50 summerville, GAPosts: 147Member Uncommon

    Sorry, these excuses you make for playing these new B2p/F2p shallow worthless boring carebear cash shop cross-platform ported rip off junk is not jiving.

     

  • Grey950Grey950 New City, NYPosts: 57Member
    Guess i'm late to the party on this one but to the OP -- I don't think you like today's mass market mmorpgs. It may seem like a hurdle but at this point it might be prudent to try something outside your comfort zone. Now I'm not gonna make any specific suggestions for fear of potentially ruining your life (I kid... kind of) but if you haven't tried any action-based games, try that. If that doesn't work, switch gears to another online game genre. The reason so many games are the same is there just isn't anyone willing to take a big leap of faith to try something completely outside of the box. It's also plausible they just haven't invested "that" mmo yet or even come up with the idea yet.

    image
    A multi-game MMORPG community
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  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by Grey950
    Guess i'm late to the party on this one but to the OP -- I don't think you like today's mass market mmorpgs. It may seem like a hurdle but at this point it might be prudent to try something outside your comfort zone. Now I'm not gonna make any specific suggestions for fear of potentially ruining your life (I kid... kind of) but if you haven't tried any action-based games, try that. If that doesn't work, switch gears to another online game genre. The reason so many games are the same is there just isn't anyone willing to take a big leap of faith to try something completely outside of the box. It's also plausible they just haven't invested "that" mmo yet or even come up with the idea yet.

    The problem is, so many people only want to play this one particular genre and they don't really like what this one particular genre has become.   They want it to magically go back to the way it was 15 years ago, which is horribly unrealistic, and they're not going to try anything else because it's not the way MMOs were 15 years ago.

    They just like to complain.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

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