My personal preference would be to have players create, implement, and sustain any fast travel systems used in the game. This would help tie the systems, which do need to be in the game in some form or another, into the world as a whole, and provide a variety of options to players with different interest levels in that particular aspect. People could choose to largely ignore it outside of accessing it to go from point A to point B, hoping that enough other people were willing to develop and sustain it, while others could potentially build their entire game experience around it as they constantly are working to sustain, improve, and expand such systems.
In any case, an emphasis on slow travel must include an emphasis on the world itself at the same time. Slow travel was interesting in FFXI because the world itself was interesting; same for SWG, or the little bit of EQ I played. The journey truly was as much of the adventure as the goal waiting at the end. Trying to implement slow travel in a modern MMO that relies heavily on phasing and instances would be far more problematic because the world as a whole is often largely ignored by the devs, and what little effort is applied is largely static, never changing, making repeated trips an exercise in tedium, not adventure. Slow travel and an active, changing open world experience must go hand in hand for either to work.
Who is Everquest Next's target audience? The common MMO fan + EQ vets most likely. EQ vets are older now. Probably in their 20+
I must admit, I lolled...
I'm a EQvet, from day 1, March 1999... I'm flattered that you call me 20+... Try 40+ today.
If they target guys like me, I've already said what I want in this thread, I just had to make a comment about this one. hehehe
Lol, is the person you quoted for real, EQ vet's in their 20+, i would say 30+ at the very least.
I think I was 13 when I started playing EverQuest. I'm 25 now. At the time, only Kunark or Velious was out. My mom made me mow the lawn for a month before she bought the game for me. No regrets :P
GW2 was the worst for travel I mean really there was a portal in the middle of your starting zone that takes you to a city of portals that will take you to every other city:(
I don't remember going anywhere fast in EQ1, if you where the wrong level or thought you could just go anywhere you like some mob would put you in your place in a heartbeat! Let alone other factions, remember sneaking into the humans city through the sewers and hoped your invis held up:) Just to take the boat.
This. EQ1 had it right. Until Planes of Power came out. You could pretty much instant travel anywhere.
Fingers are crossed for limited fast travel. I loved that only a couple classes got it. The adventure and feeling of a world is important and EQ is one of the only MMOs to capture that.
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive Fingers are crossed for limited fast travel. I loved that only a couple classes got it. The adventure and feeling of a world is important and EQ is one of the only MMOs to capture that.
I don't think EQ will have classes though, they are saying they want this EQ game to be a "Sandbox" and they even mentioned Ultima Online as inspiration, I hope anyways that it will be more skill based..
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive Fingers are crossed for limited fast travel. I loved that only a couple classes got it. The adventure and feeling of a world is important and EQ is one of the only MMOs to capture that.
I don't think EQ will have classes though, they are saying they want this EQ game to be a "Sandbox" and they even mentioned Ultima Online as inspiration, I hope anyways that it will be more skill based..
They have already mentioned Druids having to look for reagents for there spell and having to pray to certain gods in forest glades. Also Smed has said they are not going for a skill based system, EQN will be very familiar to EQ vets.
I think you guys forget hoe irritating it is to have to fight mob after mob that you don't care about and can't possibly kill you unless you mess up big time. If I had to spend s lot game time doing that just to satisfy abstract and false notion of immersion I simply won't play that game. I have better things to do other than bore myself to death.
If theres one thing EQnext needs to replicate, its the sense of danger from EQ1. That meant being very careful of where you traveled. If I wander into the middle of a bunch of mobs stronger than myself, I should die. There should be no running away (without speed buffs).
Being that they probably will have mounts, there should at least be no riding thru the middle of dangerous areas unless mobs are able to dismount you and kill you. In fact, I think riding a mount should increase your visibility to mobs, and thus, their agro radius.
In today's market you should give your players more options not less. You don't want to use the teleport system? No problem don't use it. Don't punish other people who might only have an hour or so to play and don't want to spend half of that time traveling somewhere to get a goal accomplished.
And this folks, is the kind of thinking that has destroyed MMOs.
I can tell you right now, an hour in a good game where you can only travel halfway to your destination is worth more to me than an hour in a game where you can travel around the world and back in an hour. Think of all the epic adventures that would have been lost in EQ1 going from Qeynos to Freeport if we had stupid f*ck1ng flight paths.
This game needs to establish itself as a niche, and appeal to THAT crowd that loved EQ and the mechanics that made it great. Appealing to the whiners who want another instant gratification themepark will put EQ Next on the fast track to our recycling bins.
Originally posted by JayFiveAlive Fingers are crossed for limited fast travel. I loved that only a couple classes got it. The adventure and feeling of a world is important and EQ is one of the only MMOs to capture that.
I don't think EQ will have classes though, they are saying they want this EQ game to be a "Sandbox" and they even mentioned Ultima Online as inspiration, I hope anyways that it will be more skill based..
Yeah I am most certain they will have classes. Sandbox can mean a lot of things, but I don't think they will remove the classes that helped make EQ the iconic game it became. Perhaps they will have more flexibility or something, but I think Smed means sandbox as in the world and what you can do in it. Majority of MMOs are on rails these days and hold your hand. We need something different, even if its an older style of less handholding. Anything out of the norm would be nice
Sandbox MMO simply means options. Ideally, it means theres dozens of ways to play the game and make an impact on the world without having to even pick up a sword (or wand), for example.
I would rather have a slow travel system with mounts. I love collecting mounts and its one of the big negatives I have with GW2. Dont take our mounts from us Sony!
Instant travelling to all parts of the game is, imho, a horrible game design. Why even have a vast world when every location is a click away?
The "you can always run if you want, but don't ruin fast travel for others" argument does not hold (at least to some degree). One reason why you don't want to be able to teleport around is that it will make far-away places feel much less interesting, less desolate and less unique. You will simply feel less for the game world.
As others mention, there are other pro-slow-travel arguments such as community building and the general concept that having to work for something will make you feel more accomplished.
BUT, we all know EQN must be able to retain gamers with various amount of patience, so there probably have to be compromises. Based on what is in the game as game mechanics (is PvP in? are there "arenas" you need to port to? will there be zone based quest hubs? etc), ports to these places probably have to exist in some fashion.
I'd say go halfway and "be nice" with teleports for low level, close range distances, and also with certain chosen mainstream activity game locations. Make fast travel very rare at high level, and also make fast travel exist in various degrees across the land. Starter/Main zones can have more fast travel while remote places have none.
I want to have to ride boats between continents if I don't have a port class available. If they choose to compromise on fast travel, I simply won't play. Fast travel especially ruins open world pvp. Nothing worse than surprise attacking someone just to have 100 people instantly teleport on top of you.
I think fast travel needs to be under control. I hate how it works in GW2, everyone warpping everywhere and not seeing many people in the open world other then at events. I like how EQ1 did it with 2 classes being a taxi and a few major cities having port stones to take you all over the place. I dont like the portals in players houses as it takes people away from the persistent world.
I notice people complaining that they only have a short amount of time to play and therefor should be able to fast travel to their location.
I look at it like this, travelling is part of the game. If you only have a short amount of time, that time should be spent travelling to your destination, and it should be fun. Not everything has to be about gear progression or skill progression, it should be about the experience. If you spend our only hour travelling from Freeport to Riverdale, it should be a fun hour and it should be rewarding. Perhaps on your travel you run into an NPC caravan being raided by Orcs in the East Commonlands, or you run into a dungeon you have never seen before and instead decide to explore it.
I remember the first time travelling from Freeport to Qeynos, I was running through West Commons and discovered a dungeon, Befallen. While exploring the dungeon I was completely unfamiliar with, I stupidly jumped down a well and was immediately swarmed. I panicked like the child I was, and died. I ended up asking some high levels in East Commons to help me get my corpse and made some good friends in the process. It was insanely fun. While I ended my night without reaching Qeynos, none of this would have happened if I had just fast-traveled there.
If EQN can replicate this multiple times over, there is no reason to include fast-travel. The game should not be about gear or skill progression, or travelling across the map in seconds, but exploration, fun, and community.
The only type of fast travel should be extremely limited and mostly available only via other players. Otherwise you need to travel by mount or foot to wherever you want to get to. The journey should be just as important as the destination. If you can warp everywhere, what's the point of even having a large world?
Is having a flight path, similar to WoW, that you unlock after physically visiting them via slow travel considered "Fast Travel"? Or are we talking instant portals, etc.?
i didn't read the entire thread so forgive me if i am repeating anyone else with these suggestions.
place limited mass transit points in game that have a high cost (1 wizard spire/druid ring per continent, requires you have a special skill to use it that takes a lot of time/effort to achieve). everybody has access but it won't be easy to get. also costs a good amount of in-game currency.
give wizard / druid the ability to mark locations using a spell (limit marked locations to 1 or 2 places) and give them the ability to eventually teleport there with a party.
have an item (made by a crafting profession) that allows the wizard / druid to mark a location and save it on the item. double clicking consumes the item and transports the user to the location.
no taxis
no free easy transportation
communal transport takes the form of ships / wagons. want to get across land but dont want to auto run the whole way? jump on a wagon from freeport to qeynos. the journey still takes just as long but you don't have to be 100% attentive. same deal with ships. travel should never be 100% safe either, so players using these modes of transport need to be exposed to the elements. have bandit groups roaming the roads or pirates / sea monsters in the ocean. if we are lucky maybe even other players will be able to fill these roles (pvp).
people should have a home in game. travel should take thought and planning. i want to be able to ask people where they are from, or have them ask me "what's your home city?" i really hope sony is creating a world and not just a speedbump "experience" like so many mmo's over the last 10-12 years.
Those in favor of no fast travel are not required to USE fast travel. If you want to run all the way from Qeynos to Freeport for the 1000th time, be my guest. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. If you don't have the self control to not use fast travel yet think fast travel is bad... then I think you need to rethink "fast travel is bad".
And I played a druid in EQ1... I played Taxi for quite a few people over the years. I made some money (I never required payment)... helped some people out.... and they probably paid and played longer because of it. Running around without jboots or as a newbie could be a very, very annoying experience. People stopped playing/paying because of it. It's why most games these days added fast travel. They like paying customers.
Those in favor of no fast travel are not required to USE fast travel. If you want to run all the way from Qeynos to Freeport for the 1000th time, be my guest. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. If you don't have the self control to not use fast travel yet think fast travel is bad... then I think you need to rethink "fast travel is bad".
And I played a druid in EQ1... I played Taxi for quite a few people over the years. I made some money (I never required payment)... helped some people out.... and they probably paid and played longer because of it. Running around without jboots or as a newbie could be a very, very annoying experience. People stopped playing/paying because of it. It's why most games these days added fast travel. They like paying customers.
there's a difference between fast travel and travel enhancements. fast travel = the nexus. teleports to everywhere and all you have to do is click, be on the opposite side of the world in the time it takes to sneeze.
travel enhancements = mounts, run speed buffs, regional teleports that require player investment (time/money - leveling a wizard to 50 for group teleport), rare quick travel items (runes from UO as an example), boats / ferries, etc.
there's so much they can do to enhance travel but still make it a timesink. travel NEEDS to be a forced timesink. you can't put widely available fast travel options and then tell people "just dont use them if you dont like it," because everybody would use it anyway. there's no way anybody would party with you if they had to wait for you to run from halfway across norrath and they all just clicked "enter dungeon." on the other side, if everybody had to run everywhere but there were limited options for quick travel it would be expected that you may have to wait on somebody if you invite them to party with you in cabilis and they are in freeport, unless of course you planned ahead enough to have a wizard / druid / whatever to get them to you quickly.
it comes down to this; worlds that allow quick travel as the main mode of transport are no longer worlds, they are lobbies or snapshots. everything in between the hotspots is missed and widely overlooked. allowing quick travel in a large game is akin to creating instances for each little area, you might as well be playing diablo 2 or some 15 minutes of fun xbox game. EQ 1 was about immersion in the game world and you can't have immersion when you don't spend time in the world because you can just get everywhere instantly.
Comments
My personal preference would be to have players create, implement, and sustain any fast travel systems used in the game. This would help tie the systems, which do need to be in the game in some form or another, into the world as a whole, and provide a variety of options to players with different interest levels in that particular aspect. People could choose to largely ignore it outside of accessing it to go from point A to point B, hoping that enough other people were willing to develop and sustain it, while others could potentially build their entire game experience around it as they constantly are working to sustain, improve, and expand such systems.
In any case, an emphasis on slow travel must include an emphasis on the world itself at the same time. Slow travel was interesting in FFXI because the world itself was interesting; same for SWG, or the little bit of EQ I played. The journey truly was as much of the adventure as the goal waiting at the end. Trying to implement slow travel in a modern MMO that relies heavily on phasing and instances would be far more problematic because the world as a whole is often largely ignored by the devs, and what little effort is applied is largely static, never changing, making repeated trips an exercise in tedium, not adventure. Slow travel and an active, changing open world experience must go hand in hand for either to work.
I think I was 13 when I started playing EverQuest. I'm 25 now. At the time, only Kunark or Velious was out. My mom made me mow the lawn for a month before she bought the game for me. No regrets :P
This. EQ1 had it right. Until Planes of Power came out. You could pretty much instant travel anywhere.
I don't think EQ will have classes though, they are saying they want this EQ game to be a "Sandbox" and they even mentioned Ultima Online as inspiration, I hope anyways that it will be more skill based..
Just make eq 1999 . with 100x the items. still dropping as rarely as 1999 eq's items.
20x more dungeons. Keep the no level reqs etc. pre-nerfed . nerfed items. left in game etc etc.
eq 1999 with x100 more items x20 more dungeons .... booom done.. best game ever it would be.!
They have already mentioned Druids having to look for reagents for there spell and having to pray to certain gods in forest glades. Also Smed has said they are not going for a skill based system, EQN will be very familiar to EQ vets.
It's how the world works that is key.
NO Fast Travel Hopefully.
Make it even harder to travel than EQ1, a bit like Ryzom.
It add to immersion on every levels, it tightens the (racial) communities, makes exploring Exciting.
MAKE TRAVELING ONCE AGAIN A PART OF THE ADVENTURE !
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Playing : Uncharted Waters Online
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I would also like fast travel kept to a minimum..
Limit it to a skill that casters can take up and I will be happy with that
I'd be happy if they didn't even have mounts.
If theres one thing EQnext needs to replicate, its the sense of danger from EQ1. That meant being very careful of where you traveled. If I wander into the middle of a bunch of mobs stronger than myself, I should die. There should be no running away (without speed buffs).
Being that they probably will have mounts, there should at least be no riding thru the middle of dangerous areas unless mobs are able to dismount you and kill you. In fact, I think riding a mount should increase your visibility to mobs, and thus, their agro radius.
And this folks, is the kind of thinking that has destroyed MMOs.
I can tell you right now, an hour in a good game where you can only travel halfway to your destination is worth more to me than an hour in a game where you can travel around the world and back in an hour. Think of all the epic adventures that would have been lost in EQ1 going from Qeynos to Freeport if we had stupid f*ck1ng flight paths.
This game needs to establish itself as a niche, and appeal to THAT crowd that loved EQ and the mechanics that made it great. Appealing to the whiners who want another instant gratification themepark will put EQ Next on the fast track to our recycling bins.
Yeah I am most certain they will have classes. Sandbox can mean a lot of things, but I don't think they will remove the classes that helped make EQ the iconic game it became. Perhaps they will have more flexibility or something, but I think Smed means sandbox as in the world and what you can do in it. Majority of MMOs are on rails these days and hold your hand. We need something different, even if its an older style of less handholding. Anything out of the norm would be nice
The less fast travel there is, the better. Unless/until they invent fast travel for real life. In which case, I'd want it in my virtual world also.
Instant travelling to all parts of the game is, imho, a horrible game design. Why even have a vast world when every location is a click away?
The "you can always run if you want, but don't ruin fast travel for others" argument does not hold (at least to some degree). One reason why you don't want to be able to teleport around is that it will make far-away places feel much less interesting, less desolate and less unique. You will simply feel less for the game world.
As others mention, there are other pro-slow-travel arguments such as community building and the general concept that having to work for something will make you feel more accomplished.
BUT, we all know EQN must be able to retain gamers with various amount of patience, so there probably have to be compromises. Based on what is in the game as game mechanics (is PvP in? are there "arenas" you need to port to? will there be zone based quest hubs? etc), ports to these places probably have to exist in some fashion.
I'd say go halfway and "be nice" with teleports for low level, close range distances, and also with certain chosen mainstream activity game locations. Make fast travel very rare at high level, and also make fast travel exist in various degrees across the land. Starter/Main zones can have more fast travel while remote places have none.
I notice people complaining that they only have a short amount of time to play and therefor should be able to fast travel to their location.
I look at it like this, travelling is part of the game. If you only have a short amount of time, that time should be spent travelling to your destination, and it should be fun. Not everything has to be about gear progression or skill progression, it should be about the experience. If you spend our only hour travelling from Freeport to Riverdale, it should be a fun hour and it should be rewarding. Perhaps on your travel you run into an NPC caravan being raided by Orcs in the East Commonlands, or you run into a dungeon you have never seen before and instead decide to explore it.
I remember the first time travelling from Freeport to Qeynos, I was running through West Commons and discovered a dungeon, Befallen. While exploring the dungeon I was completely unfamiliar with, I stupidly jumped down a well and was immediately swarmed. I panicked like the child I was, and died. I ended up asking some high levels in East Commons to help me get my corpse and made some good friends in the process. It was insanely fun. While I ended my night without reaching Qeynos, none of this would have happened if I had just fast-traveled there.
If EQN can replicate this multiple times over, there is no reason to include fast-travel. The game should not be about gear or skill progression, or travelling across the map in seconds, but exploration, fun, and community.
Is having a flight path, similar to WoW, that you unlock after physically visiting them via slow travel considered "Fast Travel"? Or are we talking instant portals, etc.?
i didn't read the entire thread so forgive me if i am repeating anyone else with these suggestions.
place limited mass transit points in game that have a high cost (1 wizard spire/druid ring per continent, requires you have a special skill to use it that takes a lot of time/effort to achieve). everybody has access but it won't be easy to get. also costs a good amount of in-game currency.
give wizard / druid the ability to mark locations using a spell (limit marked locations to 1 or 2 places) and give them the ability to eventually teleport there with a party.
have an item (made by a crafting profession) that allows the wizard / druid to mark a location and save it on the item. double clicking consumes the item and transports the user to the location.
no taxis
no free easy transportation
communal transport takes the form of ships / wagons. want to get across land but dont want to auto run the whole way? jump on a wagon from freeport to qeynos. the journey still takes just as long but you don't have to be 100% attentive. same deal with ships. travel should never be 100% safe either, so players using these modes of transport need to be exposed to the elements. have bandit groups roaming the roads or pirates / sea monsters in the ocean. if we are lucky maybe even other players will be able to fill these roles (pvp).
people should have a home in game. travel should take thought and planning. i want to be able to ask people where they are from, or have them ask me "what's your home city?" i really hope sony is creating a world and not just a speedbump "experience" like so many mmo's over the last 10-12 years.
Those in favor of no fast travel are not required to USE fast travel. If you want to run all the way from Qeynos to Freeport for the 1000th time, be my guest. Nothing is stopping you from doing so. If you don't have the self control to not use fast travel yet think fast travel is bad... then I think you need to rethink "fast travel is bad".
And I played a druid in EQ1... I played Taxi for quite a few people over the years. I made some money (I never required payment)... helped some people out.... and they probably paid and played longer because of it. Running around without jboots or as a newbie could be a very, very annoying experience. People stopped playing/paying because of it. It's why most games these days added fast travel. They like paying customers.
there's a difference between fast travel and travel enhancements. fast travel = the nexus. teleports to everywhere and all you have to do is click, be on the opposite side of the world in the time it takes to sneeze.
travel enhancements = mounts, run speed buffs, regional teleports that require player investment (time/money - leveling a wizard to 50 for group teleport), rare quick travel items (runes from UO as an example), boats / ferries, etc.
there's so much they can do to enhance travel but still make it a timesink. travel NEEDS to be a forced timesink. you can't put widely available fast travel options and then tell people "just dont use them if you dont like it," because everybody would use it anyway. there's no way anybody would party with you if they had to wait for you to run from halfway across norrath and they all just clicked "enter dungeon." on the other side, if everybody had to run everywhere but there were limited options for quick travel it would be expected that you may have to wait on somebody if you invite them to party with you in cabilis and they are in freeport, unless of course you planned ahead enough to have a wizard / druid / whatever to get them to you quickly.
it comes down to this; worlds that allow quick travel as the main mode of transport are no longer worlds, they are lobbies or snapshots. everything in between the hotspots is missed and widely overlooked. allowing quick travel in a large game is akin to creating instances for each little area, you might as well be playing diablo 2 or some 15 minutes of fun xbox game. EQ 1 was about immersion in the game world and you can't have immersion when you don't spend time in the world because you can just get everywhere instantly.