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The Problem with MMOs- You Always Know It's a Game

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  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by jonrd463

    Bring back that sense of wonder

    How do you add wonder back into a jaded veteran, exactly?

    Answer that, and you're halfway back home (at least for your individual answer).

    with nerdy sound and graphics (old school style) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgEwAGar9wk

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Apraxis
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by jonrd463

    Bring back that sense of wonder

    How do you add wonder back into a jaded veteran, exactly?

    Answer that, and you're halfway back home (at least for your individual answer).

    with nerdy sound and graphics (old school style) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgEwAGar9wk

    By playing different kinds of games? I am not jaded. There are lots of fun, new stuff out there. Dishonored is phenomenal. Bioshock is great. Even D3 has a new angle (paritcular the experimentation of builds) of ARPG. Incredible Adventure of Van Helsing also put a new angle on APRG (steampunk, and quirkly companion).

    There are lots of new exciting stuff. I don't have any complaints as a gamer.

  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    *By playing different kinds of games?*

    Someone upthread say "something new"--what if something new isn't your ancient mmo vision, exactly?

    Here's the part I can never get to fit in my head. Trouble resolving paradoxes, I guess.

    The same people:

    I want new new new, give me back my sense of wonder.

    But don't you dare to change anything about my favorite old old old game. Make it just like that.


    Just another example of things that make your eyes cross.

    P.S. what's up with the editor?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Antiquated
    *By playing different kinds of games?* Someone upthread say "something new"--what if something new isn't your ancient mmo vision, exactly? Here's the part I can never get to fit in my head. Trouble resolving paradoxes, I guess. The same people: I want new new new, give me back my sense of wonder. But don't you dare to change anything about my favorite old old old game. Make it just like that. Just another example of things that make your eyes cross.

    Good point. That is why they may never find their game .. they are looking for something new in old tried and failed ideas.

    Personally, i will look for new types of online games, beyond MMOs. The market is moving. Newer games like LoL and WoT is making a lot of noise. Look at how many MOBAs are being produced.

     

  • actionreactionactionreaction Kalispell, MTPosts: 82Member

    Here, I will give you folks a basic example.

     

    Social interaction (A) and player interaction with enviroment (B)

     

    New game for Masses

    • A) Characters may form and join guilds, allowing characters within the guild access to the guild's chat channel, the guild name and optionally allowing other features, including a guild tabard, guild bank, and dues.
     
    • B) The term "instance" comes from each group or party having a separate copy, or instance, of the dungeon, complete with their own enemies to defeat and their own treasure or rewards.[39] This allows a group to explore areas and complete quests without others interfering. Dungeons are spread over the game world and are designed for characters of varying progression
     
    Old game for Fans
     
    • A).....features a unique allegiance and fealty system that creates formal links between players and rewards cooperative play.  A player of equal or lower level can swear allegiance to a player of the same or higher level, becoming a vassal of a patron. The patron earns a small percentage of bonus experience based on what the vassal makes, while the vassal is motivated to seek a patron exchange for money, items, game knowledge or protection.  
     
    • A) In the words of one reviewer: "At worst, the allegiance system is a multilevel marketing scheme, whereby greedy, uncaring Patrons enlist as many Vassals as possible in order to gain large amounts of bonus experience. But at best, the allegiance system can provide a tightly knit companionship for players genuinely interested in helping others and developing an organized assembly."  Players may also join together in fellowships, temporarily splitting the experience they gain amongst themselves.
     
    • B)  The world itself is large at over 500 square miles (1,300 km2). Unlike many other games in the genre, there are no zones. This means players can cross the world on foot, without loading screens or invisible barriers, and any terrain that can be seen in the distance is a real object in the world. It also has a much longer viewing distance than other games of its vintage, with mountains, bodies of water and other terrain being visible long before it is actually approached.
     
    • B) The world is also dotted with a system of one-way portals which expedite travel. Knowing the location and destination of the portals, as well as lifestones, is of vital strategic importance - especially on the Darktide (PVP) server, where allegiances battle each other constantly for dominance over lucrative hunting zones and trading cities.
     
    • B) Apart from the seamless surface world, some of the portals also lead to intricate dungeons. Many of the dungeons are part of quests and contain unique treasures. Dungeons are often much more difficult to navigate than the surface world. They include dizzying labyrinths of passageways in which it is possible to get lost or cut off from your adventuring group, trapped in pits due to missing difficult jumps, stuck behind locked doors, or simply surrounded and overwhelmed by beasts. Some doors require keys. Other dungeons have a series of levers which open otherwise impassable doors, and require group teamwork and timing to run or jump through.

     

     

    These two games are Asheron's Call ( Released on November 2, 1999 ) & World of Warcraft (released on November 23, 2004 ).

     

    AC vs WOW

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ZombieKen

     

    In fact, if you go back to pnp RPG, it is never about being in a big fantasy world with lots of people, it is always about 5 friends going through a dungeon adventure.

     

     

    which is why large scale boss raids are no fun. not because the mechanics can't be fun, but because it makes no sense in terms of fantasy plot, which is why I play... to immerse myself in a fantasy plot through an online world and dungeons.

     

    there is no immersion in standing beside twenty other 'heros' and fighting '1' monster. in fact, i find it the single most ridiculous aspect of MMOs, other than gear progression > character progression. 

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Zairu
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ZombieKen

     

    In fact, if you go back to pnp RPG, it is never about being in a big fantasy world with lots of people, it is always about 5 friends going through a dungeon adventure.

     

     

    which is why large scale boss raids are no fun. not because the mechanics can't be fun, but because it makes no sense in terms of fantasy plot, which is why I play... to immerse myself in a fantasy plot through an online world and dungeons.

     

    there is no immersion in standing beside twenty other 'heros' and fighting '1' monster. in fact, i find it the single most ridiculous aspect of MMOs, other than gear progression > character progression. 

    Being different is not always bad though. There is no reason why the nature of RPG needs to stay the same as the pnp version.

    I don't see a problem with gear progression, or raids if they are fun. Now i do agree that raids are not necessarily fun because you contribution and impact is much smaller in a big raid. However, 10 man raid seems to be fun. A small enough group that you can still matter.

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by actionreaction

    Here, I will give you folks a basic example.

     

    Social interaction (A) and player interaction with enviroment (B)

     

    New game for Masses

    • A) Characters may form and join guilds, allowing characters within the guild access to the guild's chat channel, the guild name and optionally allowing other features, including a guild tabard, guild bank, and dues.
     
    • B) The term "instance" comes from each group or party having a separate copy, or instance, of the dungeon, complete with their own enemies to defeat and their own treasure or rewards.[39] This allows a group to explore areas and complete quests without others interfering. Dungeons are spread over the game world and are designed for characters of varying progression
     
    Old game for Fans
     
    • A).....features a unique allegiance and fealty system that creates formal links between players and rewards cooperative play.  A player of equal or lower level can swear allegiance to a player of the same or higher level, becoming a vassal of a patron. The patron earns a small percentage of bonus experience based on what the vassal makes, while the vassal is motivated to seek a patron exchange for money, items, game knowledge or protection.  
     
    • A) In the words of one reviewer: "At worst, the allegiance system is a multilevel marketing scheme, whereby greedy, uncaring Patrons enlist as many Vassals as possible in order to gain large amounts of bonus experience. But at best, the allegiance system can provide a tightly knit companionship for players genuinely interested in helping others and developing an organized assembly."  Players may also join together in fellowships, temporarily splitting the experience they gain amongst themselves.
     
    • B)  The world itself is large at over 500 square miles (1,300 km2). Unlike many other games in the genre, there are no zones. This means players can cross the world on foot, without loading screens or invisible barriers, and any terrain that can be seen in the distance is a real object in the world. It also has a much longer viewing distance than other games of its vintage, with mountains, bodies of water and other terrain being visible long before it is actually approached.
     
    • B) The world is also dotted with a system of one-way portals which expedite travel. Knowing the location and destination of the portals, as well as lifestones, is of vital strategic importance - especially on the Darktide (PVP) server, where allegiances battle each other constantly for dominance over lucrative hunting zones and trading cities.
     
    • B) Apart from the seamless surface world, some of the portals also lead to intricate dungeons. Many of the dungeons are part of quests and contain unique treasures. Dungeons are often much more difficult to navigate than the surface world. They include dizzying labyrinths of passageways in which it is possible to get lost or cut off from your adventuring group, trapped in pits due to missing difficult jumps, stuck behind locked doors, or simply surrounded and overwhelmed by beasts. Some doors require keys. Other dungeons have a series of levers which open otherwise impassable doors, and require group teamwork and timing to run or jump through.

     

     

    These two games are Asheron's Call ( Released on November 2, 1999 ) & World of Warcraft (released on November 23, 2004 ).

     

    AC vs WOW

     

     

     

     

    there is so much wrong in the way you presented your argument.

     

     

    it's terrible.

     

     

     

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Zairu
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ZombieKen

     

    In fact, if you go back to pnp RPG, it is never about being in a big fantasy world with lots of people, it is always about 5 friends going through a dungeon adventure.

     

     

    which is why large scale boss raids are no fun. not because the mechanics can't be fun, but because it makes no sense in terms of fantasy plot, which is why I play... to immerse myself in a fantasy plot through an online world and dungeons.

     

    there is no immersion in standing beside twenty other 'heros' and fighting '1' monster. in fact, i find it the single most ridiculous aspect of MMOs, other than gear progression > character progression. 

    Being different is not always bad though. There is no reason why the nature of RPG needs to stay the same as the pnp version.

    I don't see a problem with gear progression, or raids if they are fun. Now i do agree that raids are not necessarily fun because you contribution and impact is much smaller in a big raid. However, 10 man raid seems to be fun. A small enough group that you can still matter.

     

     

    i agree with all points.

     

    i was just pointing out the key factors that break my immersion, and sadly, the best encounters are usually the ones with twenty other people running around and screaming humorless drivel in vent.

     

    so yeah, vent is actually my number 1 immersion breaker, but it goes hand and hand with raiding so i'm quicker to just look at the raiding as the problem. more so, it is the vent that is required for raiding and the noise that comes with it.

  • DenambrenDenambren Montreal, QCPosts: 320Member Uncommon

    Take a look at Star Citizen - immersion is a high priority for the game devs.

     

    Once this game releases and reminds (or introduces, depending on gaming experience of player) us all about what game immersion is in an MMO, I suspect we'll see immersion coming back to the genre from MMOs that follow.

  • KrimzinKrimzin Fort Worth, TXPosts: 545Member Uncommon

    Immersion= Being a human Ranger without a torch in the Tunnel to Qeynos Hills.

    Can you say Dark..

    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.


    It's an Orange thing
  • BrianshoBriansho Woodbridge, VAPosts: 4,779Member Uncommon
    MMOs have gone from get gud to get/buy gear. Companies can make more money off people dropping $$$ ever day or so than the classic 15/month.

    Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!

  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Immersion= Being a human Ranger without a torch in the Tunnel to Qeynos Hills.

    Can you say Dark..

     or... being a dark elf and sneaking into the sewers of Qeynos to visit my wood elf's house.

     

    those were fun times.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Krimzin

    Immersion= Being a human Ranger without a torch in the Tunnel to Qeynos Hills.

    Can you say Dark..

    You can emulate that by turning your monitor brightness way down ...

    What i remember EQ is 90% of the time is wasting in waiting for camping, either bosses, or just mobs for xp. If waiting 10 min, a mob appearing, killing it in 10 second, then repeat .. is not immersion breaking, nothing is.

    And don't tell me EQ players don't do that day in and day out.

     

  • crack_foxcrack_fox WellingtonPosts: 402Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    It is about the adventure, not about living in a world. In fact, if you go back to pnp RPG, it is never about being in a big fantasy world with lots of people, it is always about 5 friends going through a dungeon adventure.

    It's been a long time since I played pnp but yes, it was all about  the adventure. When we finished the session we might talk about various events in the game, how our characters reacted, how we narrowly escaped death etc. All of the memorable stuff. What we never talked about was the dice rolls, item stats and so forth because that sh*t was dull. Of course, we understood that such things were necessary to make the whole thing happen, but we played for the adventure and for the camaraderie not for bigger numbers and better gear.

    It seems to me that for the majority of MMO gamers, this has become reversed; the 'adventure' has become something to be rushed through as quickly as possible in order to get bigger numbers and better gear. It may seem natural for gamers brought up on high scores and  league tables to develop such a narrow focus, but to me it rather misses the point. Obsessing over numbers and trying to exploit game mechanics for competitive advantage leads to the sort of endless griping over class balance, ninja-looting and pay-to-win items that infest game forums. I find it difficult to understand how such players can genuinely have fun when so much of their energy seems to be dedicated to complaining. Perhaps this is just a different kind of immersion for a different kind of player? If so, it seems a more harmful form of immersion than that associated with the kind of gamer who simply seeks to escape into a fantasy world for a few hours.  

    That said, while I empathise strongly with the OP, it was our approach to those old pnp games that provided that immersion not the games themselves. They were just rule-sets that supplied a foundation for our collective imagining. You can't passively wait for a game to come along that will fulfill your requirements because that bus is never going to arrive. The keys to immersion in any kind of multi-player rpg are imagination and like-minded players, not the presence or absence of specific game mechanics. 

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    No matter how immersive an mmorpg is i'll never forget that it's just a game.
  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,171Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jonrd463

     

    Bring back that sense of wonder, where a group gathers and says "Hey, let's check out what's over that horizon.", rather than "Hey, let's go do X dungeon, which lies in a series of other dungeons along the singular path that all must walk, and when we get good enough, we can walk the same path, only doing the Super-duper hardmode version of X dungeon along the way!"

    Then you're talking mostly about sandboxes these days.

    Themepark a.k.a. instance lobby MMOs are mostly about instant gratification, players do not want to waste prescious "raiding" time by actually travelling etc, they want instant zoning into a dungeon, get the job done asap and sit in a hotspot for hours jumping around and wondering why the game is so boring.

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Could this be said of any game?

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,171Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by worldalpha
    Could this be said of any game?

    Some developers stay true to their cause, most however want more and more $ to compete with bigger names and sell out.

    Also MMOs that are on the decline need to give their players more and more to keep them active; so they get insta gratification which dumbs down the 'exploring a virtual world' experience.

    Tbh, I can't think of a MMO -alive- today that is a virtual world without insta gratification, the sandboxes that I used to play or am playing today have done it as well somewhere along the path.

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Muke

    Themepark a.k.a. instance lobby MMOs are mostly about instant gratification, players do not want to waste prescious "raiding" time by actually travelling etc, they want instant zoning into a dungeon, get the job done asap and sit in a hotspot for hours jumping around and wondering why the game is so boring.

     

    What boring is camping all day and only get to fight the boss every 2 hours.

    And what game is "so boring"? None of the LFD games i am playing is boring. If it is, i won't be playing it.

    What i wonder is .. why it takes so many years for devs to figure out how to make games fun. They should have done it back in 99.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,441Member Uncommon

    It is oh so true and i personally try to forget it or i really get bored.

    There is absolutely no progression in gaming,your player moves along at the same pace as the content,so level 60 feels exactly like level 1 did,with just more options.What actually happens is your player feels less powerful and less skilled as you level.

    Look at crafting,it gets harder,slower and less viable.At level 1 you 2 hit kills,then at level 60 you need 10 hits and several actions/spells so you seem to be a weaker version of yourself than when you were level 1.The way games should work is you struggle a lot more as a level 1,after all you are suppose to be a noob,weak and have no skills in your arsenal.

    The best we can do is make a really solid AI,without it the npc's look really bad and makes the game feel a lot worse.

    I have no problem  with games all being geared base,however just like the rest of the design,it feels meaningless.Example at level ,i am a noob,i get hit for 2-10,at level 60 i am suppose to be wearing this super elite gear have all these abilities and buffs but i am taking 150 damage.

    So that super RARE drop is treating you worse than the level 1 noob gear you entered the game with.How your player and gear works on NON relevant content is of course non relevant.SO just because that new gear works great versus level 1 mobs,it is meaningless to your character and the game's content that is relevant to your level.

    My biggest pet peeve is when i spend 60/70/80 levels gaining all those great spells and abilities ,then the game makes the Boss immune to all of them.So they basically take all that hard work and time you spent building your player and reverse him back to ....yep you guessed it level 1 status.


    Samoan Diamond

  • DauntisDauntis Kansas City, MOPosts: 548Member Uncommon
    I think one thing that certainly contributes to a lack of immersion is that too many people play for end game instead of enjoying the journey. I enjoy exploring, bucking the quest chains and moving around on my own taking my time... you will find if you do this that there is often a whole world of other stuff happening in most MMOs. Racing to endgame is hardly immersive, that is like a 3 year-old who complains they can't wait to reach retirement.

    I would like to give an opinion on this post, but if I agree I will offend people who disagree. While if I disagree my comment will be seen as inflammatory. Either way I will get banned by this site full of the most delicate flowers in online gaming. Ban people for giving honest opinions... beautiful. Unfortunately I still like the articles.

  • WATSKIWATSKI Franklin Square, NYPosts: 37Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite

    Like most things in life, there's a scale of grey involved, not a lightswitch that turns on or off.

    Yep, absolutely this. You're only as immersed as you allow yourself to be. Sure a game can help or can't help, but ultimately if you constantly think you're staring at a monitor trying to get the best formula, then that's all it's going to be.

     

    Alternatively, have you tried Roleplaying as a Mathematician who is trying to find the best formula?

    Aim Small, Miss Small.

  • ApraxisApraxis RegensburgPosts: 1,515Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    It is oh so true and i personally try to forget it or i really get bored.

    There is absolutely no progression in gaming,your player moves along at the same pace as the content,so level 60 feels exactly like level 1 did,with just more options.What actually happens is your player feels less powerful and less skilled as you level.

    Look at crafting,it gets harder,slower and less viable.At level 1 you 2 hit kills,then at level 60 you need 10 hits and several actions/spells so you seem to be a weaker version of yourself than when you were level 1.The way games should work is you struggle a lot more as a level 1,after all you are suppose to be a noob,weak and have no skills in your arsenal.

    The best we can do is make a really solid AI,without it the npc's look really bad and makes the game feel a lot worse.

    I have no problem  with games all being geared base,however just like the rest of the design,it feels meaningless.Example at level ,i am a noob,i get hit for 2-10,at level 60 i am suppose to be wearing this super elite gear have all these abilities and buffs but i am taking 150 damage.

    So that super RARE drop is treating you worse than the level 1 noob gear you entered the game with.How your player and gear works on NON relevant content is of course non relevant.SO just because that new gear works great versus level 1 mobs,it is meaningless to your character and the game's content that is relevant to your level.

    My biggest pet peeve is when i spend 60/70/80 levels gaining all those great spells and abilities ,then the game makes the Boss immune to all of them.So they basically take all that hard work and time you spent building your player and reverse him back to ....yep you guessed it level 1 status.

    Yeap. That is really something which bothers me too. In UO it was somewhat right.

    In the beginning your spells fizzled a lot, after some skill level not so often, or not at all(as with any other skill). That was a feeling of progression.

    But the power gap between max level and noob was also not that huge, and all content was more or less available for all from the very beginning. With the difference that you could do a lot more with high skill levels, you felt more powerful, and you were enable to help out low level ones.. another kind of feeling the progression.

    Therefore i am a advocate of a system with less vertical progression and more horizontal progression and no, or very less gated content. With a small power gap, but the feeling of progression, and to be able to play together with all players.

    And for me this would work the best in a open sandbox world with more dynamic content. So that all content is available from the very beginning, but will dynamicly change over time, so that it will at least feel fresh evey time you encounter it.

     

  • AsariashaAsariasha Somewhere inPosts: 218Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by jonrd463

    Bring back that sense of wonder

    How do you add wonder back into a jaded veteran, exactly?

    Answer that, and you're halfway back home (at least for your individual answer).

     

    The jaded veteran is only experienced in a certain field. Confront the veteran with something new and the newbie gazes to the new lands to explore.

    Explanation: Some years ago I joined an officially accepted DAoC freeshard (NPO). Due to my long experience in playing MMOs and the gathered experience when developing an expansion, I lost something that I refer to as "magic of a game". When you know how something works it reaches a status of normality. When confronted with the same mechanics over and over again, the game becomes some sort of work due to repetitive game flow.

     

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