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When did being a "Normal MMO Gamer" become "Hardcore Gamer"??

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  • deamiandeamian Sandy, UTPosts: 65Member

    Using the term "Hardcore" to describe pushing keys and playing a video game is about as stupid as saying you are a hardcore dishwasher.. Unless you are saving lives via brain surgery, military, fighting fires or any other people putting their life on the line...get over yourself.

     

    General statement, not aimed at anyone :) thanks enjoy your games.

  • AIMonsterAIMonster Apopka, FLPosts: 2,059Member

    I wonder what these people consider players who actually played those old school MMOs "hardcore".  I still consider the following:

    Casual  - Less than 10hrs a week

    Semi-Hardcore - 10-40 hrs a week

    Hardcore - 40+ hours a week

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  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon

    I've always been a gamer for as long a I can remember (back when the only games were found on boards) but I've never been considered "normal."

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • RossbossRossboss Runes of Magic, TXPosts: 240Member

    Normal and Hardcore are relative terms. They are also topical as to how extreme or not they actually are.

    For instance, normal things to order at hamburgers joints are a hamburger and french fries. The hardcore option could be a double burger or supersized fries, depending on how big the burgers are and how hungry the person is.

     

    Just keep in mind when you use those terms. They have no real static definition as they are based on rules that are dynamic to how we perceive norms from our individual point of view.

    I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
    I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
    I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.

  • k11keeperk11keeper Kalama, WAPosts: 1,056Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rossboss

    Normal and Hardcore are relative terms. They are also topical as to how extreme or not they actually are.

    For instance, normal things to order at hamburgers joints are a hamburger and french fries. The hardcore option could be a double burger or supersized fries, depending on how big the burgers are and how hungry the person is.

     

    Just keep in mind when you use those terms. They have no real static definition as they are based on rules that are dynamic to how we perceive norms from our individual point of view.

    So true because when games required a minimum of 6 hours a day and pretty much all day saturday and sunday just to keep up with lvling was I normal for my accomplishment or hardcore for my time? Now even though I accomplish more less time (mainly because of game design) am I casual because of time or hardcore because of my accomplishments?

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,936Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BearKnight
     

     

    I've thought about it, and it makes sense over the past couple of years that being a NORMAL gamer has shifted to becoming "Hardcore", and now "Super Casual" is the new norm perhaps.

     

     

    First off, congrats on the comp-sci education, and best of luck.  Two of my high school computer buddies went that route.  One with a Masters, the other with a Doctorate.  Both ended up doing quite well for themselves (Apple and Oracle).

     

    As far as the new norm, I think you nailed it.  Conversion to mass-appeal gaming changed the playerbase, which in turn changed the genre.

     

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by rockin_ufo
    Why can't I just be an MMO player who enjoys the game I play?

    As long as you don't care what some stranger thinks you can.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BearKnight

    I recently was having a discussion with some self proclaimed "Avid Gamers" from the college I'm going back to for my BA in Computer Science. In this discussion I mentioned the normal stuff you'd do in Everquest, DAOC, and SWG. The response I got was fairly shocking.

    Mostly along the lines of "Wow, you're a pretty hardcore gamer. I'd have dropped that game in the first couple days".

    REALLY?? I never even mentioned raiding, epic questing, or any of that stuff. I was ONLY talking about normal grouping for a couple hours, what would normally occur (aggro control, healer responsibilities, etc), and character/equipment development (ie: nothing was handed to me for free from a "quest").

    I've thought about it, and it makes sense over the past couple of years that being a NORMAL gamer has shifted to becoming "Hardcore", and now "Super Casual" is the new norm perhaps.

    However, my question is what happened to being a Normal MMO Gamer??? When did the bracket get changed :(? Apparently spending more than a couple hours in one play session is now considered excessive by both developers and "Normal" gamers alike.

    What happened D:

    What happened is time passed you by. People do things in shorter intervals and interact differently now. And by 'now' I mean the past 10 or so years. The change in how they play games is part of the greater change - how they live their life.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by rockin_ufo
    Why can't I just be an MMO player who enjoys the game I play?

    As long as you don't care what some stranger thinks you can.

    Yup. Assumption of superiority requires a target(s) to be your inferior.

    Evaluating worth through game achievement requires that you agree to some sort of value in the ranking system.

     

    But wait, that's only using a single definition of 'hardcore'. Being (usually) a self-selected label, there are many.

     

    Originally posted by _redruM_

    Can we come to some kind of a consensus as to what "hardcore" means?

    Not any time in the previous 15 years, why start now?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,281Member Uncommon

    Awesome question.

     

    I first noticed it at the end of the WoW's burning Crusade. Some will go directly to WoW's existence,  but I would have to disagree with them.

     

    Until that point even WoW players worked to progress. If they did not work, build there toon, and skills the didn't get the rewards. At the end of BC Blizzard allowed players to skip progress, by nerfing the high end content so that everyone could try it  (the reward) despite progression.

     

    This continued in later expansions. Dungeons that allowed the skipping of earlier progress by giving near equal gear.  In this community of 12 million gamers, an attitude of "give me now began."  

     

    Since then copy cat developers have been giving players their reward faster and faster, with less effort. Jump to 2012, and you get developers selling their game on being "all fun, with no progression" 

     

    Today if progression requires effort it's labled as grind, where as pre BC it was the progression that was fun.

     

     

     

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,619Member Uncommon
    I would classify myself as casual hardcore because although I don't play as much as I used to when I do play I no life it. But a real hardcore gamer is somoene who does that everyday and treats it more like an interactive spreadsheet because if you play it for long enough it turns into a second job + numbers game.

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,579Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by rockin_ufo
    Why can't I just be an MMO player who enjoys the game I play?

    As long as you don't care what some stranger thinks you can.

    Yup. Assumption of superiority requires a target(s) to be your inferior.

    Evaluating worth through game achievement requires that you agree to some sort of value in the ranking system.

     

    But wait, that's only using a single definition of 'hardcore'. Being (usually) a self-selected label, there are many.

     

    Originally posted by _redruM_

    Can we come to some kind of a consensus as to what "hardcore" means?

    Not any time in the previous 15 years, why start now?

    Exactly.

     

    My personal definition of 'Hardcore' within gaming has nothing to do with skill/talent, it's hours put in.

    Hardcore for me is someone putting in 8+ hours a day in gaming.

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  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by immodium
    Exactly.

     

    My personal definition of 'Hardcore' within gaming has nothing to do with skill/talent, it's hours put in.

    Hardcore for me is someone putting in 8+ hours a day in gaming.

    And I once put in a steady 30 hours a week raiding.

    But some of our readers would surely gasp in horror if I were to suggest I was, ever, 'hardcore'. Doesn't match what they want to believe I am. Or what they believe 'hardcore' is (the PVP guys, for example, hold a completely other POV).

    That one player does the same thing, all the time, for his entire gaming career is an implicit assumption, that a lot of people never even realize that they hold. And one of the enormous flaws with 'hardcore' and 'casual', as labels.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • BTrayaLBTrayaL BucharestPosts: 595Member Uncommon

    I remember the days (weeks in fact) in which I was farming with my clanmates for some A grade recipe in Lineage 2 (in the Beastfarm, for anyone that knows it)... day after day, for long hours, pretty much the same assigned party members (the ones that knew the area well), farming for about 10 rare recipes to craft bows for the clan's archers... nowadays, we would be called insane, but then, then we were just helping equip our clanmates.

    P.S. For anyone that doesn't know it, L2 is open-world PvP, anyone can kill you anywhere, so we had to keep eyes out for PK parties or war-tags (clan wars) too :). It was fun, I'll tell you that much.

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  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Anyone who calls themselves a hardcore gamer is a giant douche.
  • tordurbartordurbar Alexandria, VAPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nephelai
    Originally posted by BearKnight

    I recently was having a discussion with some self proclaimed "Avid Gamers" from the college I'm going back to for my BA in Computer Science. In this discussion I mentioned the normal stuff you'd do in Everquest, DAOC, and SWG. The response I got was fairly shocking.

     

    Mostly along the lines of "Wow, you're a pretty hardcore gamer. I'd have dropped that game in the first couple days".

     

    REALLY?? I never even mentioned raiding, epic questing, or any of that stuff. I was ONLY talking about normal grouping for a couple hours, what would normally occur (aggro control, healer responsibilities, etc), and character/equipment development (ie: nothing was handed to me for free from a "quest").

     

    I've thought about it, and it makes sense over the past couple of years that being a NORMAL gamer has shifted to becoming "Hardcore", and now "Super Casual" is the new norm perhaps.

     

    However, my question is what happened to being a Normal MMO Gamer??? When did the bracket get changed :(? Apparently spending more than a couple hours in one play session is now considered excessive by both developers and "Normal" gamers alike.

     

    What happened D:


    People confusing time with the term hardcore is what happened.

     

    To me, a hardcore gamer is someone that is a great player who defeats the highest levels possible not someone who syncs their life into something they are mediocre at. If you look at the world first Guilds in WoW for example those guys raid pretty much every night on the release of each xpac and then unsub or drastically cut back  as soon as they kill the final boss.

     

    On the other hand, some mediocre person that spends 5 nights a week running LFR or knocking his/her head against normal modes for a year is hardly hardcore - they are people that have there aspirations confused with their ability.

     

     I am that person. I play 2 hours a work night and 6-8 hours on the weekends but I don't raid and don't pvp. I am also not that good with action MMOs. Yup, despite the time, I am a casual. A casual, care bear and noob. Put me at the bottom of the heap!

     

     

     

  • EladiEladi ArnhemPosts: 1,100Member Uncommon

    2 hours max = casual gamer

    2-4 hours = core gamer 

    4-6 hours = hardcore gamer  

    6+ = addicted gamer 

    to the casual gamer anything above them is extreme 

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,462Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by BearKnight
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Perhaps it isn't them.

    I would submit that it is yours and often the people who visit forums whose idea of "normal" is out of line.

    Normal is defined by the majority action/attitude.

    The majority is casual, therefore anything more than that is by definition more hardcore.  MMO gamers in the past were not normal gamers.

    I beg to differ. We are the ones that defined the genre pre-2006, and we actually care about the genre beyond a simple pickup & drop attitude. We don't spend 30minutes just to veg and then go off to do whatever mindless task.

     

    The majority is almost never right sadly enough. I don't go into the FPS genre demanding people conform to my ways simply because suddenly more people have my mindset. I conform to their mindset out of respec or I leave that genre completely as it doesn't fit my mindset.

     

    Simply demanding we allow MMOs, and even the term MMO, to become nothing more that hogwash is insulting. That's my opinion though.

    We may have defined the MMO genre, but I'm saying MMO gamers were never normal gamers.  They were always the exception. 

    pretty much this.

    Sorry OP, but at the start of the mmo genre most "normal" people (read: not better than, just people who didn't connect to games in such a passionate and intense way) thought the many hours people were spending was insane.

    For me "normal gamer" was someone who played a bit of atari between homework and going out with friends. Or playing a bit of Myst.

    the hours that early mmo players put in were pretty amazing and no average person would do that. You were essentially the trailblazers who created the path for the "other" gamers to follow.

    you weren't normal. you were the Vanguard.

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member
    Originally posted by Eladi

    6+ = addicted gamer 

    Uh oh.

    Ah well, as of today I'm actually a non-gamer for a little while.

  • atomtanatomtan Pella, IAPosts: 106Member

    I'm wondering if this is an age/generational thing.  When I think back to my formative gaming years, saving your game was a rarity, and sometimes involved writing down a bunch of characters to input later.  Because of this we would just play the game until we finished it or got the "Game Over" screen.  When my brother and I got an NES, it was an event to sit down and play Super Mario Bros. and Contra.  Don't make any other plans for the night.  With a lot of the sports games you had to play through an entire season in one sitting.

    On the computer side, we had to write code found in magazines to a tape drive to play.  When you stopped playing you lost the code, so you had to play the hell out of the game to justify the time put in.  I also had a Tetris game for the Commodore that took about 30 to 45 minutes to load.  Pool of Radiance was also a beast to get started.

    Nowadays, with portable gaming becoming the norm, it does seem that putting in 30 minutes of uninterrupted gameplay for a single game is a feat.  A person can turn on a device and find themselves elbow-deep into a game in less than a minute, making it easier to play in just a few bite-sized chunks a day.

    In the end, I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, but like the OP, it's just something that's being observed.

    *gets up from his rocking chair and grabs his glass of lemonade*

    GET OFF MY LAWN!!

    *END whippersnapper rant*

    Currently Playing: Nothing...I'm developing.
    Looking Forward To:

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by atomtan

    Nowadays, with portable gaming becoming the norm, it does seem that putting in 30 minutes of uninterrupted gameplay for a single game is a feat.  A person can turn on a device and find themselves elbow-deep into a game in less than a minute, making it easier to play in just a few bite-sized chunks a day.

    My son's spent maybe 40 hours this week on a single phone game.

    Grant you, it is the "save it and answer the text from the girlfriend" type of title, to all appearances.

    Frankly, I wouldn't want to try to make any of our labels fit that kind of play. Doesn't have many MMO parallels, and even SP games...sure I could save and come back, but I wasn't doing it (sometimes) twice a minute.

    But maybe we've been trying to whang square pegs into round holes with these insufficient (inadequate?) labels for just too long, anyway.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • atomtanatomtan Pella, IAPosts: 106Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by atomtan

    Nowadays, with portable gaming becoming the norm, it does seem that putting in 30 minutes of uninterrupted gameplay for a single game is a feat.  A person can turn on a device and find themselves elbow-deep into a game in less than a minute, making it easier to play in just a few bite-sized chunks a day.

    My son's spent maybe 40 hours this week on a single phone game.

    Grant you, it is the "save it and answer the text from the girlfriend" type of title, to all appearances.

    Frankly, I wouldn't want to try to make any of our labels fit that kind of play. Doesn't have many MMO parallels, and even SP games...sure I could save and come back, but I wasn't doing it (sometimes) twice a minute.

    But maybe we've been trying to whang square pegs into round holes with these insufficient (inadequate?) labels for just too long, anyway.

    I agree with your stance on the labels.  Since I first heard these terms being associated with time commitments I found myself out of the loop.  There are some games that I can lose myself in from the moment I wake up to the point I pass out and my head hits the spacebar (I did this a lot with Earth and Beyond).  Then there are others where I can play for maybe an hour and feel that that's all the fun I'm going to get out of the game that day (currently doing this with Neverwinter).

    Currently Playing: Nothing...I'm developing.
    Looking Forward To:

  • MarzAttakzMarzAttakz MontaguPosts: 17Member

    Quite frankly I abhor both terms and find them derogatory. Having led a guild of mixed individuals through multiple games I'll admit you have some players who exhibit a deeper understanding and better reflexes. But to label someone who isn't "the best" as casual despite their best efforts and investment in time is plain stupid. Sure they make harder content harder but that's life.

    So to address the original question, for me personally, as an individual who has spent two thirds of my life as a gamer the question has become "when did players stop wanting to earn the reward and instead want everything handed to them on a silver platter?".

    We can label the newer generation as the "instant gr4t1f1c4t10n" crowd, which saddens me, since teen culture has become a far too powerful driving force in our world, real or virtual, today.

    Gone are the days where hard work, perseverence and "We're going to get this done no matter what" attitude were the norm.

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,665Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by _redruM_
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Dibdabs
    MMO nerds use the term "hard core" in an attempt to impress other MMO nerds.  There's nothing hard core about sitting on your ass playing a computer game, but it makes them feel better to imagine there is.   :D

    No, some of them play the game, get done with it after a hour or so and log off and do something else RL; the hardcore player defines him/herself by overstepping that with devoting MUCH more time to the game then is socially accepted.

     

    Can we come to some kind of a consensus as to what "hardcore" means?

    I only have an hour or two to play each day, and I'm usually too busy on the weekends. Does that mean I'm casual?

    On the other hand, I enjoy games with deep and complex systems for character progression, open world pvp, sandbox elements, and dislike having my hand held while being railroaded into theme park quest grinds. Does that mean I'm hardcore?

    People need to figure out if the two are distinguished by time invested, or by the type of game preferred.

    It means you are casual. Casual isn't used to describe someone who doesn't like challenging or difficult content or a game which has depth. Casual simply means that you play a game casually by devoting only about 10 hours or so a week. People just seem to use the term casual to INSULT other people because they don't devote all their time playing video games.

    Hardcore players are the people who play 6-10 hours a day, almost everyday. Playing a game 40 hours a week is NOT the norm and is considered hardcore.

    @People talking about how they can still have a full-time job and clock in 40 hours, yes this is possible but do you do anything BESIDES playing video games and working? So you don't go out, socialise, no other hobbies etc.?

     

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    It is not a question of hardcore, normal or anything. There never was many mmorpg gamers and there still aren't, and those of us who are have always been considered hardcore. Then there are the 95-98% MMOG gamers who got introduced with WoW and similar games, those are for the most part interested in playing a game that doesn't require so much of them. Those are "its a game, not work" crowd, and they will view a mmorpg gamer as hardcore just because of that. The bracket changed the instant mmorpgs turned into MMOGs that embraced the mainstream player - 2003-04-05-06? shrug.
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