Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

The Price of Immersion

2456789

Comments

  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaPosts: 1,053Member

    I believe a great gaming experience requires balance in all aspects, and that most definitely includes realism. Make the game too arcade-y, and the player does not feel part of the world. He can't experience immersion to a large degree if everything is streamlined, simplified, and made easy. However, make the game too realistic, and the player experiences more frustration than fun and joy from playing a game. After all, playing games is usually done as a form of entertainment, not work. This all demands a great developer to assess how everything happens in their game in order to achieve that happy medium.

    Realism unequivocally has its role within games, but so does convenience. Not only that, real life isn't easy to emulate due to a series of factors, like controls for instance. All in all, developers need to be creative enough to make good use of the tools they have at their disposal to create a believable, yet enjoyable game experience.

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon

    removing "hassles" from games is really detrimental to the game experience in my very personal opinion. These "hassles" are not hassles at all. They are little details that makes any game have more immersion in the virtual world your character lives in.

    Removing weapons and bows ammo so they function without projectiles capacity and even a quiver on the back makes the game look fake. The only mmo where being an archer without arrows and quivers made sense was in Cabal online. And that is because the archer class is a force archer. A magical bow summoned by a crystal that shoots magic bolts instead of wooden arrows.

     

    Other details like from the OP also are important for game immersion. Even little things like casting fire on something flameable and it actually sets on fire. Interacting with chairs like wow did. Picking up objects to use in the world like GW2 did. Running through grass and the grass moves (GW2 also did this). Other things like throwing water at a fire actually puts it off. NPC reaction towards your actions. Idiotic monsters also break immersion. Tera did a good job with the BAM's AI, they are smarter than other mobs but still kind of dumb. Other mmos just have beyond dumb mobs and thats a big immersion breaker to me when i have to fight mobile target dummies.

     

    Fixing the AI and adding all these little things that are not"hassles" at all make any game better and more immersive IMO.

     

    EDIT: make every fire spell sets enemies on fire, each ice magic freeze or slow. You set yourself on fire if you cast an explosion skill and you are within range. cast lightning on water makes an aoe effect and if you are in the water it hits you too. All these things are a huge deal when it comes to strategy and even immersion in every fight.

    image
  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 811Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Just like in the hunger thread, you keep coming up with systems you are forced to engage in. That's not a good idea when the payoff is ambiguous as some people's idea of immersion.

     

    Now, if you're going to include immersion systems that are entirely opt-in, with no detriment to not using them, then that is fine. People looking to find a better life in the internet can use every system you throw at them, while the ones that are only in-game for a while before they go back to enjoying their life can ignore them and enjoy the game.


    That is fine. But does every game have to follow suit?

     

    I suppose it does if it wants big numbers instead of differing gameplay options...

    Actually I thought I was endorsing options over requirements.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Velocinox

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Just like in the hunger thread, you keep coming up with systems you are forced to engage in. That's not a good idea when the payoff is ambiguous as some people's idea of immersion.Now, if you're going to include immersion systems that are entirely opt-in, with no detriment to not using them, then that is fine. People looking to find a better life in the internet can use every system you throw at them, while the ones that are only in-game for a while before they go back to enjoying their life can ignore them and enjoy the game.
    That is fine. But does every game have to follow suit?I suppose it does if it wants big numbers instead of differing gameplay options...
    Actually I thought I was endorsing options over requirements.
    You were, in an "every game" kind of way. The thing with toggle-able options is it de-levels the playing field for players.

    In every MMO that has food and drink, players can "make" their players eat every 4-6 hours. A player can count their arrows/bullets used and keep it at or below a self-imposed number. It really is not the options, but rather keeping all players on an even field. That's why I made the comment I did.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    Things like food and traveling often distract me from the games and brake my immersion. Why? Because carrying 2390 pork buns with you and eating 20 of them whenever you get hungry is not realistic. Hunger meters aren't realistic. Running in heavy armor and with a huge load on your back for ten minutes without getting tired isn't realistic. Carrying 20 swords on your back, but not being able to pick up one more isn't realistic. Building a sword in ten seconds isn't realistic. Mining the ore needed for that sword in a minute isn't realistic.

    See what I'm getting at? Realism has its place in certain genres, but most MMOs don't belong to those genres. When my character is essentially a superhero, having to take care of her "hunger bar" doesn't add immersion. It just feels dumb and reminds me how goofy this MMO universe is. Maybe, if someone made a truly realistic MMO with complex wound modeling, great physics and the inability to take on a 100m long dragon and live, I'd welcome those annoying little things you're talking about.

    What is the difference between relying on food and relying on potions? Many games rely on potions for buffs, that are necessary to be competitive.

    You can see food as another "potion".

    UO had a system, where you would become hungrier and hungrier ("extremely hungry" was the lowest level), but you would never die. You would fizzle more spells and miss more hits, but it was not anything really bad. Just a slight lowering of general effectiveness, but enough for people to care about being fed.

    Food can easily be done so it does not become a dominating and focus-stealing factor. But still an interesting factor.

  • RasputinRasputin gnaf, AKPosts: 604Member Uncommon

    More or less in all the definitions of "game", that I have read, obstacles (which "hassles" are) is part of it.

    But the hassles have to be meaningful - meaning they have to allow for meaningful choices - or they will not add to the game, but instead steal focus for irrelevant micromanagement.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    I just made a new MMO:

     

    PRESS HERE TO WIN! ---> [   ]

     

    Pretty boring huh?

     

     

    "Hassle" is need to give a feeling of progression and achievement. But it is about balance, MMO's should not feel like a hardcore raid from day one.

    Immersion is a incredibly complex and subjective issue. For example, I don't like shadows on NPC's, but can put up with them, but I really hate a shadow on my own toon. That's not about game lore but it does distract me now and then. Shadows are of course realistic and what you would expect to see. No two players are ever going to agree on immersion.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Rasputin
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    Things like food and traveling often distract me from the games and brake my immersion. Why? Because carrying 2390 pork buns with you and eating 20 of them whenever you get hungry is not realistic. Hunger meters aren't realistic. Running in heavy armor and with a huge load on your back for ten minutes without getting tired isn't realistic. Carrying 20 swords on your back, but not being able to pick up one more isn't realistic. Building a sword in ten seconds isn't realistic. Mining the ore needed for that sword in a minute isn't realistic.

    See what I'm getting at? Realism has its place in certain genres, but most MMOs don't belong to those genres. When my character is essentially a superhero, having to take care of her "hunger bar" doesn't add immersion. It just feels dumb and reminds me how goofy this MMO universe is. Maybe, if someone made a truly realistic MMO with complex wound modeling, great physics and the inability to take on a 100m long dragon and live, I'd welcome those annoying little things you're talking about.

    What is the difference between relying on food and relying on potions? Many games rely on potions for buffs, that are necessary to be competitive.

    You can see food as another "potion".

    UO had a system, where you would become hungrier and hungrier ("extremely hungry" was the lowest level), but you would never die. You would fizzle more spells and miss more hits, but it was not anything really bad. Just a slight lowering of general effectiveness, but enough for people to care about being fed.

    Food can easily be done so it does not become a dominating and focus-stealing factor. But still an interesting factor.

    Its not interesting if it doesn't produce any interesting decisions to the player. Food in such case is just a hoop to jump through. You are encouraged to jump through it so you jump through it. Similarly how Age of Conan had these long term buffs one had to recast whenever he/she died or arrived in a new zone. Its a chore, but you do it anyway because it makes you stronger.

    There was hardly any alternative buffs either. You just stacked 'em as high as you could to give you the best possible advantage. Mobs didn't remove them at any point. Those buffs could might as well be passive and automatically on. There's no interesting choice there.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • TorikTorik London, ONPosts: 2,343Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    I just made a new MMO:

     

    PRESS HERE TO WIN! ---> [   ]

     

    Pretty boring huh?

     

     

    "Hassle" is need to give a feeling of progression and achievement. But it is about balance, MMO's should not feel like a hardcore raid from day one.

    Immersion is a incredibly complex and subjective issue. For example, I don't like shadows on NPC's, but can put up with them, but I really hate a shadow on my own toon. That's not about game lore but it does distract me now and then. Shadows are of course realistic and what you would expect to see. No two players are ever going to agree on immersion.

    The problem with the way many of the 'old school' games implement 'hassles' is that they essentially add a "Press to remove hassle" button that you have to press periodically or your character becomes weaker.   It becomes just another item on a checklist that you have to check off and you start thinking of ways to automate that action.

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Scot

    ....

    The problem with the way many of the 'old school' games implement 'hassles' is that they essentially add a "Press to remove hassle" button that you have to press periodically or your character becomes weaker.   It becomes just another item on a checklist that you have to check off and you start thinking of ways to automate that action.

    If that is the way you think about game, maybe You should ask yourself the question, why Am I playing games ? And in particular Why am I playing roleplaying games ?

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I can do without the hassle. Games are for entertainment. Either invent a lore reason to get rid of the hassle, or just get rid of it.

    So what if we lose some immersion, fun is more important.

    Look at long travel ... in a fantasy world, it is trivial to invent some mumbo-jumbo to have teleportation. That beats running the same route again and again (the first time may be fun, the 10th time is a chore).

    And many people don't even care about that dressing up part .. just have a LFD teleport to the dungeon ... do you see any player not using it because it breaks immersion?

    This is why their are different types of games and entertainment within them. If it isn't something you find fun, then don't play it. But don't campaign to take it away from those who enjoy such features. Yep...those features other find fun in believe it or not.

     

    You always seem to be telling everyone items and features don't belong because you don't find them fun. It's not all about you.

    Sure it is.  His posts can be all about him, your posts can be all about you.  The only thing that  really matters is the collective opinions of the larger gaming community because those are the opinions that are going to get translated into actual gameplay by developers trying to appeal to a wide audience.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • Cephus404Cephus404 Redlands, CAPosts: 3,675Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Just like in the hunger thread, you keep coming up with systems you are forced to engage in. That's not a good idea when the payoff is ambiguous as some people's idea of immersion.

     

    Now, if you're going to include immersion systems that are entirely opt-in, with no detriment to not using them, then that is fine. People looking to find a better life in the internet can use every system you throw at them, while the ones that are only in-game for a while before they go back to enjoying their life can ignore them and enjoy the game.


    That is fine. But does every game have to follow suit?

     

    I suppose it does if it wants big numbers instead of differing gameplay options...

    Because every individual developer wants big numbers, of course.  You might have a point if it was all a single developer who could afford to take one or two games and make them niche titles, but when you're talking about different games by different developers who are all competing for the biggest possible audience to pay back their investors, you're not going to find *ANYONE* who is willing to knowingly limit their audience, just to make a tiny minority happy.

    Welcome to reality.

    Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
    Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
    Now Playing: None
    Hope: None

  • BTrayaLBTrayaL BucharestPosts: 595Member Uncommon

    IMO, what the OP is saying about food/crap/ammo, describes realism, NOT immersion.

    For me immersion is all about a smartly designed interface, good sounds and music, atmosphere. For example, I can get immersed in a game like Doom 3 with its dark spaces, freaky sounds, without feeling the need to grab a bite and take a dump around the next corner.

    image
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by kjempff
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Scot

    ....

    The problem with the way many of the 'old school' games implement 'hassles' is that they essentially add a "Press to remove hassle" button that you have to press periodically or your character becomes weaker.   It becomes just another item on a checklist that you have to check off and you start thinking of ways to automate that action.

    If that is the way you think about game, maybe You should ask yourself the question, why Am I playing games ? And in particular Why am I playing roleplaying games ?

    If you have this view about games, particularly roleplaying games, then you need to play better games. Only bad games are whack-a-moles similar to what kjempff describes.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BTrayaL

    IMO, what the OP is saying about food/crap/ammo, describes realism, NOT immersion.

    For me immersion is all about a smartly designed interface, good sounds and music, atmosphere. For example, I can get immersed in a game like Doom 3 with its dark spaces, freaky sounds, without feeling the need to grab a bite and take a dump around the next corner.

    ^Agreed.

     

    Some realism aspects can help with Immersion, but it is not what defines Immersion. Lack of realism is just the easiest to spot.  Everyone has their idea of what breaks Immersion for them, so It is more about the amount of Immersion breakers than any single feature.

    But I agree with OPs general view, developers should start to think more about what a feature cost in Immersion loss, and decide from that.. maybe they already do.

  • VorchVorch Somewhere, FLPosts: 800Member

    It's the little things that leave the biggest impressions.

    For instance, I would say that the perfect composition of the World 1-1 theme song from Mario has as much to do with Mario's success as the gameplay does.

    In mmos, those little extra interactions with the environment are what you are going to stay for.

    "As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days— those are now the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by kjempff
    Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by Scot ....
    The problem with the way many of the 'old school' games implement 'hassles' is that they essentially add a "Press to remove hassle" button that you have to press periodically or your character becomes weaker.   It becomes just another item on a checklist that you have to check off and you start thinking of ways to automate that action.
    If that is the way you think about game, maybe You should ask yourself the question, why Am I playing games ? And in particular Why am I playing roleplaying games ?


    Because there are role playing games that implement those features without turning it into a whack-a-mole game or into a mindless, repetitive process.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,455Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    Things like food and traveling often distract me from the games and brake my immersion. Why? Because carrying 2390 pork buns with you and eating 20 of them whenever you get hungry is not realistic. Hunger meters aren't realistic. Running in heavy armor and with a huge load on your back for ten minutes without getting tired isn't realistic. Carrying 20 swords on your back, but not being able to pick up one more isn't realistic. Building a sword in ten seconds isn't realistic. Mining the ore needed for that sword in a minute isn't realistic.

    See what I'm getting at? Realism has its place in certain genres, but most MMOs don't belong to those genres. When my character is essentially a superhero, having to take care of her "hunger bar" doesn't add immersion. It just feels dumb and reminds me how goofy this MMO universe is. Maybe, if someone made a truly realistic MMO with complex wound modeling, great physics and the inability to take on a 100m long dragon and live, I'd welcome those annoying little things you're talking about.

    well, we can address some of what you said.

     

    Things like food and traveling often distract me from the games and brake my immersion. Why? Because carrying 2390 pork buns with you and eating 20 of them whenever you get hungry is not realistic.

    So this issue can be solved by really not allowing you to carry 2390 pork buns and requiring you to eat 20 of them.

    Carrying 20 swords on your back, but not being able to pick up one more isn't realistic.

    So this is issue can be solved by really not allowing you to carry 20 swords.

    The rest of what you say is "yadda yadda yadda". A sort of "representation" of what happened. Which, over the years I have realized that most game players have huge problems with as many seem very "literal". An example wold be LOTRO's hunters and their ability to "travel quickly using fast hidden roads and paths" which manifests itself as a port to an area. Well, the first time I read a player complaining that Hunters had "magic" to travel so why couldn't everyone else and while he was at it why couldn't there being flying mounts" I nearly did a spit take. I saw that complaint quite a lot.

    That's why making a sword doesn't take a long time. Now, I think making a sword should take a long time but requiring a player to sit their for hours (and I think crafting should be mini games anyway) isnt' what these games are about.

    Running in Armor? I agree but you find that in movies as well. Part of it is you have to recognize the spirit of the game.

    And "immersion" isn't just relegated to certain gamers.

    My roommate is not a gamer. His only guilty pleasure are the elder scrolls games which he will play when they come out and then subsequently remove from his hard drive when he is done. And during each one he will turn to me and say "they should make it so that you have to sleep" and "they should make it so that you have to hunt your own food, cook it and eat it".

    Or, in his latest bout with skyrim, if he came upon a town where a dragon struck and killed one of the inhabitants he would accept their fate. Once he was in dragon reach and he came across some character lying on the ground. He excaimed "oh, tom!" (or whatever the name was) and I said I could just resurrect him on the spot to which he replied "nope, that's what happened, he died..."

    Immersion can actually give meaning to the game and to the players but only if done "right" and only to those players who can appreciate that type of detail.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I can do without the hassle. Games are for entertainment. Either invent a lore reason to get rid of the hassle, or just get rid of it.

    So what if we lose some immersion, fun is more important.

    Look at long travel ... in a fantasy world, it is trivial to invent some mumbo-jumbo to have teleportation. That beats running the same route again and again (the first time may be fun, the 10th time is a chore).

    And many people don't even care about that dressing up part .. just have a LFD teleport to the dungeon ... do you see any player not using it because it breaks immersion?

    This is why their are different types of games and entertainment within them. If it isn't something you find fun, then don't play it. But don't campaign to take it away from those who enjoy such features. Yep...those features other find fun in believe it or not.

     

    You always seem to be telling everyone items and features don't belong because you don't find them fun. It's not all about you.

    Sure it is.  His posts can be all about him, your posts can be all about you.  The only thing that  really matters is the collective opinions of the larger gaming community because those are the opinions that are going to get translated into actual gameplay by developers trying to appeal to a wide audience.

    Yeah .. Of course my posts are about my opinion. And you are right, let's all vote with our wallets (or time) and see what happens.

    Heck, the whales vote for me :)

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I can do without the hassle. Games are for entertainment. Either invent a lore reason to get rid of the hassle, or just get rid of it.

    So what if we lose some immersion, fun is more important.

    Look at long travel ... in a fantasy world, it is trivial to invent some mumbo-jumbo to have teleportation. That beats running the same route again and again (the first time may be fun, the 10th time is a chore).

    And many people don't even care about that dressing up part .. just have a LFD teleport to the dungeon ... do you see any player not using it because it breaks immersion?

    This is why their are different types of games and entertainment within them. If it isn't something you find fun, then don't play it. But don't campaign to take it away from those who enjoy such features. Yep...those features other find fun in believe it or not.

     

    You always seem to be telling everyone items and features don't belong because you don't find them fun. It's not all about you.

     

     

    Your fallacy is that long travel is not a feature. Fast travel is one on top of slow travel. LFD is a feature on top on .. you guess it ... talk in a city until you get a group.

    No one is taking that away from anyone. You *can* travel slowly in ANY MMO if you want to. No one forces you to take the portal, or the flight point in WOW. No one forces you to use the LFD.

    The beauty is that these are choices.

    Now you complain that no one wants to take those slow choices with you . well .. that is just too bad if you can't find people agree with you. No one is obligated to play your way. Plus, while it takes 2 to talk (you are out of luck there), it takes only one to travel slowly.

    You can run around in WOW (or any game) as slow as you want and admire the scenary. No one is stopping you.

    So nope .. nothing is taking away from you. Good stuff is added for others .. which you don't appreciate.

  • BoneserinoBoneserino London, ONPosts: 1,623Member Uncommon

    OMFG!!  

    The only thing I can truly ascertain from this thread is that MMO's truly are dead!

    Incredible,the number of posters whining that, Ohh I have to feed my self and find food.  Oh I have to travel long distances! Oh my stuff wears out and I have to replace it!

    And yet everyone here that complains MMO's are dead, states that   "We need a virtual world!!"  Our life won't be complete without the ability to make our own world and create our own content!!

    LMFAO!!  You peeps wouldn't last 10 mins in such a game and it is no wonder devs and investors aren't going to touch it with a ten foot pole!! 

    I just weep for humanity. 

    Go back to your Iphone games.

    FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 811Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    LMFAO!!  You peeps wouldn't last 10 mins in such a game and it is no wonder devs and investors aren't going to touch it with a ten foot pole!! 

    I just weep for humanity. 

    What's funnier is you think playing a difficult game is a life's achievement. Not a great job, not an education, not a family, or anything else that is real. You are shocked nobody thinks a game is a worthy lifelong commitment.

    Weeping? I do it for your generation.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Boneserino

    OMFG!!  

    The only thing I can truly ascertain from this thread is that MMO's truly are dead!

    Incredible,the number of posters whining that, Ohh I have to feed my self and find food.  Oh I have to travel long distances! Oh my stuff wears out and I have to replace it!

    And yet everyone here that complains MMO's are dead, states that   "We need a virtual world!!"  Our life won't be complete without the ability to make our own world and create our own content!!

    LMFAO!!  You peeps wouldn't last 10 mins in such a game and it is no wonder devs and investors aren't going to touch it with a ten foot pole!! 

    I just weep for humanity. 

    Go back to your Iphone games.

    Is there some reason why I should play those games?  They aren't as entertaining to me, don't give me any sense of achievement, don't enhance my life.

     We played those games.  They weren't as fun.  Why would I do it again?

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Yyrkoon_PoMYyrkoon_PoM Reseda, CAPosts: 150Member

    One of the reasons these immersive features were added to games was as an artificial way to control the economy.  As long as players had to buy food, arrows, or other small items it ensured that money was coming out of circulation.   Even if players could craft these items there was always one or more purchased component that would be required before the items could be made.  As a game designer you always have to look for ways to remove money from the game, some do it through crafting, while others do it with mounts, or finally through making players pay for fast travel or other little things.

    I think things like food, walking from place to place, or arrows/bullets should be in games, but not at the expense of fast travel or unlimited ammo. Allow the players to play the way they want to play, and build in other mechanisms that reward people that do things the old fashion way.  An example would be all unlimited arrows have their stats based on the characters level,  where as manufactured arrows (which need to be carried around) have a variety of stats that can be set at the time of creation (longer distance, more damage, knockback, short stun ....) You can balance it out so that the arrows may not be any better than the standard unlimited arrow, but make it so that choice to use made/bought arrows add diversity.  GW2 had fast travel, but it had a cost associated with it based on the level of the character using it. Food being used as buffs is a good start, but I just wish some games would improve the way the food buffs are managed/applied/maintained.

  • MMORPGRIPMMORPGRIP Canton, OHPosts: 90Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by MMORPGRIP
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I can do without the hassle. Games are for entertainment. Either invent a lore reason to get rid of the hassle, or just get rid of it.

    So what if we lose some immersion, fun is more important.

    Look at long travel ... in a fantasy world, it is trivial to invent some mumbo-jumbo to have teleportation. That beats running the same route again and again (the first time may be fun, the 10th time is a chore).

    And many people don't even care about that dressing up part .. just have a LFD teleport to the dungeon ... do you see any player not using it because it breaks immersion?

    This is why their are different types of games and entertainment within them. If it isn't something you find fun, then don't play it. But don't campaign to take it away from those who enjoy such features. Yep...those features other find fun in believe it or not.

     

    You always seem to be telling everyone items and features don't belong because you don't find them fun. It's not all about you.

     

     

    Your fallacy is that long travel is not a feature. Fast travel is one on top of slow travel. LFD is a feature on top on .. you guess it ... talk in a city until you get a group.

    No one is taking that away from anyone. You *can* travel slowly in ANY MMO if you want to. No one forces you to take the portal, or the flight point in WOW. No one forces you to use the LFD.

    The beauty is that these are choices.

    Now you complain that no one wants to take those slow choices with you . well .. that is just too bad if you can't find people agree with you. No one is obligated to play your way. Plus, while it takes 2 to talk (you are out of luck there), it takes only one to travel slowly.

    You can run around in WOW (or any game) as slow as you want and admire the scenary. No one is stopping you.

    So nope .. nothing is taking away from you. Good stuff is added for others .. which you don't appreciate.

    I like how you try to turn it around.

    I'm not complaining no one takes those ways of travel with me. I could care less if others do or don't. I'm not saying people are obligated to play my way either. Find a post where I say any of those things in my history. They are just your assumptions.

    You have absolutely no idea what makes MMORPG's unique from console gaming...or just don't care. (Awaiting MMORPG's aren't suppose to be anything reply).

     

    What I AM saying however...is anyone could go through your post history and find many many examples of you campaigning to make MMORPG's console games, and referencing non-MMORPG's as examples to concrete this fact. I can appreciate things that truly make MMORPG's better, but not ones that detract from what made them stand out from other genres of games in the first place.

Sign In or Register to comment.