Originally posted by Betaguy I only deal in absolutes, never what if's. WoW does exist so we can't imagine what it would be like without it or how it changed/ didn't change the market. /shrug
Don't be silly. If you thought only in absolutes, you wouldn't be able to function in society. You certainly wouldn't be able to play video games when they are based almost entirely on conceptual thinking and largely on random probabilities.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Drakynn This question reminds me of the other popular what if "What if Hitler had never been born/died early".The easy knee jerk answer is everything would be different!!!!More thorough examination shows Hitler was a product of his time and the socio-economic situation in Germany at the time.Hitler didn't start the Nazi party or it's ideals he rose up through it via charisma but was not the only charismatic person in the party.Germany was hurting under the punishing economic reprisals of the Treaty of Versailles,the rise of Fascism was in response to skirmishes against communist Soviet forces on it's border,antisemitic feeling was rife in Germany at the time.These amongst other factors would all of been true whether Hitler existed or not.So whilst Hitler not existing of the time may of changed things drastically...it seems more likely that someone else would of just filled his place with only minor differences.So too was WoW a product of it's time so Whilst in it's absence things may of been very different it also seems likely something else would of taken it's place and there would be only minor differences in the long run.This is no way saying WoW is Hitler before anyone jumps on that just that it is a similar what ifs on different categories.
We're on dangerous ground now, with the Hitler reference, but I get what you're saying.
However, even if someone else filled in Hitler's spot, they wouldn't be Hitler, they wouldn't make the same choices Hitler made. Maybe they wouldn't have been nearly as aggressive, or perhaps not as insane. Maybe, instead of Hitler, there would have been a council running things because to have a single leader, they really needed a charismatic guy to do it.
In the same way, just because conditions were nearly perfect for WoW's ascendancy, it doesn't mean that WoW or something WoW like had to come into existence. Even if a developer made something that nearly fit the space that WoW fit when it launched, it doesn't mean the developer would continue to make the same decisions as Blizzard. They might have chosen a more traditional approach to MMOs, or a sandbox approach, or they might have botched the whole thing, tanking the game that could have been WoW.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by Betaguy I only deal in absolutes, never what if's. WoW does exist so we can't imagine what it would be like without it or how it changed/ didn't change the market. /shrug
Don't be silly. If you thought only in absolutes, you wouldn't be able to function in society. You certainly wouldn't be able to play video games when they are based almost entirely on conceptual thinking and largely on random probabilities.
Originally posted by Drakynn This question reminds me of the other popular what if "What if Hitler had never been born/died early".
The easy knee jerk answer is everything would be different!!!!
More thorough examination shows Hitler was a product of his time and the socio-economic situation in Germany at the time.Hitler didn't start the Nazi party or it's ideals he rose up through it via charisma but was not the only charismatic person in the party.
Germany was hurting under the punishing economic reprisals of the Treaty of Versailles,the rise of Fascism was in response to skirmishes against communist Soviet forces on it's border,antisemitic feeling was rife in Germany at the time.These amongst other factors would all of been true whether Hitler existed or not.
So whilst Hitler not existing of the time may of changed things drastically...it seems more likely that someone else would of just filled his place with only minor differences.
So too was WoW a product of it's time so Whilst in it's absence things may of been very different it also seems likely something else would of taken it's place and there would be only minor differences in the long run.
This is no way saying WoW is Hitler before anyone jumps on that just that it is a similar what ifs on different categories.
We're on dangerous ground now, with the Hitler reference, but I get what you're saying.
However, even if someone else filled in Hitler's spot, they wouldn't be Hitler, they wouldn't make the same choices Hitler made. Maybe they wouldn't have been nearly as aggressive, or perhaps not as insane. Maybe, instead of Hitler, there would have been a council running things because to have a single leader, they really needed a charismatic guy to do it.
In the same way, just because conditions were nearly perfect for WoW's ascendancy, it doesn't mean that WoW or something WoW like had to come into existence. Even if a developer made something that nearly fit the space that WoW fit when it launched, it doesn't mean the developer would continue to make the same decisions as Blizzard. They might have chosen a more traditional approach to MMOs, or a sandbox approach, or they might have botched the whole thing, tanking the game that could have been WoW.
Everything you say may of come to be in both cases I just say it most likely wouldn't of...
Most likely another charismatic leader would of rose through the Nazi Party ranks,steeped in the same doctorine and beliefs that was that movement at the time.
Another game that took where the genre was already moving and polishing them till they shined would of taken WoW's place.
Or maybe not that's the problem with what ifs,there's no actual way to prove either case just reasoned extrapolation which in the end is still just extrapolation not hard fact.
Oh and to jump in before some hothead does I am no way excusing Hitler or anyone else.Hitler deserves his villification and dark spot in History as do the other members of the Nazi party.
That about explains the hate for WoW. People are tired, really tired of seeing games in a similar vein. I don't blame them for being tired, it's been a long time, but in answer to the question of what if WoW never existed?
Well it's simple really, something else would have been the biggest and most popular MMO at some point, a zillion clones would have been made of it and everyone would be sick of that too. WoW is a variable, it's interchangeable with any other MMO that would have happened to get really popular.
If we could observe parallel realities we would see one in which a sandbox MMO became the most popular and 10 years later everyone is complaining about the constant sandbox games being released and kickstarting developers who offer themepark style MMOs.
Another phrase comes to mind, "no matter how hot she is, someone, somewhere is sick of her shit."
It's human nature of people getting tired of the same old and that's really all it boils down to.
Well there weren't be anymore "WoW clone" ignorant talk going on. Chances are I'd say if anything Everquest 2 would be in place of WoW.
Thing is, some other game WOULD of gotten a good chunk of that game's success. WoW itself actually brought nothing new to the table, in that end it was trying to compete with Everquest 1 which had a good hold on the market at that point. Would EQ of been so popular? Perhaps not to that massive degree (blizzard IP gets free players to those not sure of MMOs) but it would I feel of been quite large.
WoW's success wasn't based off anything they did so much as how they showed the game off and then its built in base when more people started on the big MMO kick. Without it, I honestly feel Everquest 2 would of been the one getting "EQ2 clone" spammed by those silly people today if it hadn't existed.
In Short: EQ2 would of likely been the 'running star' of the MMo market and things would of been I feel in ways a bit less 'homogenized' (WoW being one to quickly gobble up ideas other games did before them and use them) though still not at all very far from what we see in most MMos today. The core elements of WoW were taken from EQ, stuff EQ2 had as well which I think would of easily carried through the market.
I think that without WoW, there would be a much smaller playerbase because less people would have tried a MMO. I remember back in the day that paying a monthly fee for just ONE GAME seemed crazy. Why would I pay a monthly fee when I can buy other games and they'd be mine forever?? Crazytalk!! lol
Also, I think the bar for quality would have remained much lower.
it was special set of circumstances that allowed Wow to go from mediocre to stratospheric. it was the angry players from SWG that allowed Wow to rise. I won't go in to a long drawn out story, you had to be there to see this and know why ex SWG fans made sure Wow would be a hit after SOE made SWG into a Wow clone.
"Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor
Originally posted by Olgark There wouldn't be as many mmo's out there, but the ones we would have would of been far better than what has been produced.
Also true.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Originally posted by Drakynn This question reminds me of the other popular what if "What if Hitler had never been born/died early".
The easy knee jerk answer is everything would be different!!!!
More thorough examination shows Hitler was a product of his time and the socio-economic situation in Germany at the time.Hitler didn't start the Nazi party or it's ideals he rose up through it via charisma but was not the only charismatic person in the party.
Germany was hurting under the punishing economic reprisals of the Treaty of Versailles,the rise of Fascism was in response to skirmishes against communist Soviet forces on it's border,antisemitic feeling was rife in Germany at the time.These amongst other factors would all of been true whether Hitler existed or not.
So whilst Hitler not existing of the time may of changed things drastically...it seems more likely that someone else would of just filled his place with only minor differences.
So too was WoW a product of it's time so Whilst in it's absence things may of been very different it also seems likely something else would of taken it's place and there would be only minor differences in the long run.
This is no way saying WoW is Hitler before anyone jumps on that just that it is a similar what ifs on different categories.
We're on dangerous ground now, with the Hitler reference, but I get what you're saying.
However, even if someone else filled in Hitler's spot, they wouldn't be Hitler, they wouldn't make the same choices Hitler made. Maybe they wouldn't have been nearly as aggressive, or perhaps not as insane. Maybe, instead of Hitler, there would have been a council running things because to have a single leader, they really needed a charismatic guy to do it.
In the same way, just because conditions were nearly perfect for WoW's ascendancy, it doesn't mean that WoW or something WoW like had to come into existence. Even if a developer made something that nearly fit the space that WoW fit when it launched, it doesn't mean the developer would continue to make the same decisions as Blizzard. They might have chosen a more traditional approach to MMOs, or a sandbox approach, or they might have botched the whole thing, tanking the game that could have been WoW.
Everything you say may of come to be in both cases I just say it most likely wouldn't of...
Most likely another charismatic leader would of rose through the Nazi Party ranks,steeped in the same doctorine and beliefs that was that movement at the time.
Another game that took where the genre was already moving and polishing them till they shined would of taken WoW's place.
Or maybe not that's the problem with what ifs,there's no actual way to prove either case just reasoned extrapolation which in the end is still just extrapolation not hard fact.
Oh and to jump in before some hothead does I am no way excusing Hitler or anyone else.Hitler deserves his villification and dark spot in History as do the other members of the Nazi party.
An interesting comparison, but not quite accurate in this case. You assume that the charismatic leader would have been the in the Nazi party, and not some other party, which is not entirely a safe assumption; a charismatic leader would eventually have arisen, but not necessarily from the same party or background. WoW became the runaway success for a lot of reasons, and removing any one of them would have changed the trajectory of the game considerably. Had Blizzard not had the reputation for quality games, fewer existing MMO gamers would have bought into the initial release. Had Warcraft not been an established IP in other game genres, gamers from those genres would not have bought into the initial release. Had the experience in the game itself been less satisfactory, fewer people would have stayed long enough for Blizzard to build up any kind of momentum. While the trends that supported both Hitler and WoW are undeniable, both were unique products that resulted from the perfect blend of trends, luck, and timing. Remove any single factor, and you lose the full blown effect, even if you don't remove all of the effect. If WoW had not existed, the genre would be a very different thing right now; it would probably be recognizable in many respects, but it would still be very, very different in a lot of the key aspects. The explosion that WoW had probably would not have been replicated by somebody else, even if the trends that supported that explosion would still be evident.
Originally posted by Drakynn This question reminds me of the other popular what if "What if Hitler had never been born/died early".
The easy knee jerk answer is everything would be different!!!!
More thorough examination shows Hitler was a product of his time and the socio-economic situation in Germany at the time.Hitler didn't start the Nazi party or it's ideals he rose up through it via charisma but was not the only charismatic person in the party.
Germany was hurting under the punishing economic reprisals of the Treaty of Versailles,the rise of Fascism was in response to skirmishes against communist Soviet forces on it's border,antisemitic feeling was rife in Germany at the time.These amongst other factors would all of been true whether Hitler existed or not.
So whilst Hitler not existing of the time may of changed things drastically...it seems more likely that someone else would of just filled his place with only minor differences.
So too was WoW a product of it's time so Whilst in it's absence things may of been very different it also seems likely something else would of taken it's place and there would be only minor differences in the long run.
This is no way saying WoW is Hitler before anyone jumps on that just that it is a similar what ifs on different categories.
We're on dangerous ground now, with the Hitler reference, but I get what you're saying.
However, even if someone else filled in Hitler's spot, they wouldn't be Hitler, they wouldn't make the same choices Hitler made. Maybe they wouldn't have been nearly as aggressive, or perhaps not as insane. Maybe, instead of Hitler, there would have been a council running things because to have a single leader, they really needed a charismatic guy to do it.
In the same way, just because conditions were nearly perfect for WoW's ascendancy, it doesn't mean that WoW or something WoW like had to come into existence. Even if a developer made something that nearly fit the space that WoW fit when it launched, it doesn't mean the developer would continue to make the same decisions as Blizzard. They might have chosen a more traditional approach to MMOs, or a sandbox approach, or they might have botched the whole thing, tanking the game that could have been WoW.
Everything you say may of come to be in both cases I just say it most likely wouldn't of...
Most likely another charismatic leader would of rose through the Nazi Party ranks,steeped in the same doctorine and beliefs that was that movement at the time.
Another game that took where the genre was already moving and polishing them till they shined would of taken WoW's place.
Or maybe not that's the problem with what ifs,there's no actual way to prove either case just reasoned extrapolation which in the end is still just extrapolation not hard fact.
Oh and to jump in before some hothead does I am no way excusing Hitler or anyone else.Hitler deserves his villification and dark spot in History as do the other members of the Nazi party.
An interesting comparison, but not quite accurate in this case. You assume that the charismatic leader would have been the in the Nazi party, and not some other party, which is not entirely a safe assumption; a charismatic leader would eventually have arisen, but not necessarily from the same party or background. WoW became the runaway success for a lot of reasons, and removing any one of them would have changed the trajectory of the game considerably. Had Blizzard not had the reputation for quality games, fewer existing MMO gamers would have bought into the initial release. Had Warcraft not been an established IP in other game genres, gamers from those genres would not have bought into the initial release. Had the experience in the game itself been less satisfactory, fewer people would have stayed long enough for Blizzard to build up any kind of momentum. While the trends that supported both Hitler and WoW are undeniable, both were unique products that resulted from the perfect blend of trends, luck, and timing. Remove any single factor, and you lose the full blown effect, even if you don't remove all of the effect. If WoW had not existed, the genre would be a very different thing right now; it would probably be recognizable in many respects, but it would still be very, very different in a lot of the key aspects. The explosion that WoW had probably would not have been replicated by somebody else, even if the trends that supported that explosion would still be evident.
Again all possible but the nazi party was the most popular at the time but yes not the only one.Who know maybe there could of been an even worse monster than Hitler that rose,hard to imagine but the circumstances were right for someone to rise and lead Germany out of it's hardships but since most of those hardships were caused externally War seems the inevitable outcome,but maybe the holocaust may of been avoided though like I said antisemitic sentiment was rampant at the time as it tends to be in Europe during hard times,they made an easy target.
All things are possible in what ifs I suppose but what more interesting is how personal bias plays a role in all these posts including mine.People are pretty much saying if this certain thing didn't happen then everything would be how I want it.
Comments
Don't be silly. If you thought only in absolutes, you wouldn't be able to function in society. You certainly wouldn't be able to play video games when they are based almost entirely on conceptual thinking and largely on random probabilities.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
We're on dangerous ground now, with the Hitler reference, but I get what you're saying.
However, even if someone else filled in Hitler's spot, they wouldn't be Hitler, they wouldn't make the same choices Hitler made. Maybe they wouldn't have been nearly as aggressive, or perhaps not as insane. Maybe, instead of Hitler, there would have been a council running things because to have a single leader, they really needed a charismatic guy to do it.
In the same way, just because conditions were nearly perfect for WoW's ascendancy, it doesn't mean that WoW or something WoW like had to come into existence. Even if a developer made something that nearly fit the space that WoW fit when it launched, it doesn't mean the developer would continue to make the same decisions as Blizzard. They might have chosen a more traditional approach to MMOs, or a sandbox approach, or they might have botched the whole thing, tanking the game that could have been WoW.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Fox News and it's viewers prove you wrong!!!!
*ducks for cover*
F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used to
Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.
Everything you say may of come to be in both cases I just say it most likely wouldn't of...
Most likely another charismatic leader would of rose through the Nazi Party ranks,steeped in the same doctorine and beliefs that was that movement at the time.
Another game that took where the genre was already moving and polishing them till they shined would of taken WoW's place.
Or maybe not that's the problem with what ifs,there's no actual way to prove either case just reasoned extrapolation which in the end is still just extrapolation not hard fact.
Oh and to jump in before some hothead does I am no way excusing Hitler or anyone else.Hitler deserves his villification and dark spot in History as do the other members of the Nazi party.
"Familiarity breeds contempt."
That about explains the hate for WoW. People are tired, really tired of seeing games in a similar vein. I don't blame them for being tired, it's been a long time, but in answer to the question of what if WoW never existed?
Well it's simple really, something else would have been the biggest and most popular MMO at some point, a zillion clones would have been made of it and everyone would be sick of that too. WoW is a variable, it's interchangeable with any other MMO that would have happened to get really popular.
If we could observe parallel realities we would see one in which a sandbox MMO became the most popular and 10 years later everyone is complaining about the constant sandbox games being released and kickstarting developers who offer themepark style MMOs.
Another phrase comes to mind, "no matter how hot she is, someone, somewhere is sick of her shit."
It's human nature of people getting tired of the same old and that's really all it boils down to.
If WoW never existed, we probably would have gotten UO:2 and I'd probably still be playing it now.
Well there weren't be anymore "WoW clone" ignorant talk going on. Chances are I'd say if anything Everquest 2 would be in place of WoW.
Thing is, some other game WOULD of gotten a good chunk of that game's success. WoW itself actually brought nothing new to the table, in that end it was trying to compete with Everquest 1 which had a good hold on the market at that point. Would EQ of been so popular? Perhaps not to that massive degree (blizzard IP gets free players to those not sure of MMOs) but it would I feel of been quite large.
WoW's success wasn't based off anything they did so much as how they showed the game off and then its built in base when more people started on the big MMO kick. Without it, I honestly feel Everquest 2 would of been the one getting "EQ2 clone" spammed by those silly people today if it hadn't existed.
In Short: EQ2 would of likely been the 'running star' of the MMo market and things would of been I feel in ways a bit less 'homogenized' (WoW being one to quickly gobble up ideas other games did before them and use them) though still not at all very far from what we see in most MMos today. The core elements of WoW were taken from EQ, stuff EQ2 had as well which I think would of easily carried through the market.
I think that without WoW, there would be a much smaller playerbase because less people would have tried a MMO. I remember back in the day that paying a monthly fee for just ONE GAME seemed crazy. Why would I pay a monthly fee when I can buy other games and they'd be mine forever?? Crazytalk!! lol
Also, I think the bar for quality would have remained much lower.
"Not even a cray super computer can make this game run well. Thats what happens when you code an MMO in pascal. " - miglor
Also true.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
An interesting comparison, but not quite accurate in this case. You assume that the charismatic leader would have been the in the Nazi party, and not some other party, which is not entirely a safe assumption; a charismatic leader would eventually have arisen, but not necessarily from the same party or background. WoW became the runaway success for a lot of reasons, and removing any one of them would have changed the trajectory of the game considerably. Had Blizzard not had the reputation for quality games, fewer existing MMO gamers would have bought into the initial release. Had Warcraft not been an established IP in other game genres, gamers from those genres would not have bought into the initial release. Had the experience in the game itself been less satisfactory, fewer people would have stayed long enough for Blizzard to build up any kind of momentum. While the trends that supported both Hitler and WoW are undeniable, both were unique products that resulted from the perfect blend of trends, luck, and timing. Remove any single factor, and you lose the full blown effect, even if you don't remove all of the effect. If WoW had not existed, the genre would be a very different thing right now; it would probably be recognizable in many respects, but it would still be very, very different in a lot of the key aspects. The explosion that WoW had probably would not have been replicated by somebody else, even if the trends that supported that explosion would still be evident.
Again all possible but the nazi party was the most popular at the time but yes not the only one.Who know maybe there could of been an even worse monster than Hitler that rose,hard to imagine but the circumstances were right for someone to rise and lead Germany out of it's hardships but since most of those hardships were caused externally War seems the inevitable outcome,but maybe the holocaust may of been avoided though like I said antisemitic sentiment was rampant at the time as it tends to be in Europe during hard times,they made an easy target.
All things are possible in what ifs I suppose but what more interesting is how personal bias plays a role in all these posts including mine.People are pretty much saying if this certain thing didn't happen then everything would be how I want it.