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Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by MMORPGRIP Originally posted by Krimzin I dont know what version of EQ some of these people played. The only solo classes were Druids and Wizards.. both AE Kiting Classes. Rest of the classes needed groups to farm XP.
Eh...I played Ranger, Dreadknight and Beastlord and could solo pretty good. Of course though...it took knowing your class and mob aggro ranges, etc too.
Necros were soloer kings. Bards could charm kite/fear kite and of course swarm kite making them IMO the best open area soloers in the game (bards soloing in a dungeon... shudder).
Paly's and clerics could solo undead.
Monks while slow could split mobs, FD and mend making them very effective soloers.
So then we have 10 out of 14 at launch, then 11 (beasts) of 14 could solo well. 16 classes now but with mercs they all solo.
Still a BIG difference in soloing in EQ (Pre- PoP) and in today's MMORPG's.
In EQ...yes, you could solo, and well if you know your class and how to use them, split mobs, and knew aggro ranges. But IMO it was MUCH harder to do than in today's games. More at stake too...because dying happened more then, and was much more painful/scary/exciting. having to do naked corpse runs to get your stuff, xp loss..maybe even a lvl loss if not far into the lvl...
Plus you could take on a couple mobs.....but any more than that could be death (Depending on the mobs and their con to you)
Now?...I can blow through several mobs with little ill effect (And this is nearly all current MMORPG's I have tried) and if I die? Eh...respawn with little loss really. Maybe a few coins to repair (If even) and a debuff for a few minutes. Makes taking risks a thoughtless matter.
Originally posted by ReallyNow10 Originally posted by nariusseldon
I think a little more than that. Some degree of "ouch" just to get hearts to pound. Remember barely making it out alive from a train in Unrest? Thinking that kind of fear/elation, although toned down a bit.
Yeah i remember the trains. That is just frustration as in .. "damn he did that and now i have to replay the game for 3 hours?".
So no thanks.
The largest problem are the levels.
Friend A comes along, wants to play with friend B. Games these days have it to where Friend A needs to do a massive amount of levelling in order to partake in PvP/Quests/Dailies with Friend B.
What is social about that?
I will use UO as an example, too. It could be tough, and most places you went (like a dungeon), you could almost go at any stage of entering the game. Whether you were new or a veteran. If you just started that day, not highly adviasable, but there were people who could go with you to places and teach you what you didn't know, or heal you while you raised certain skills. There was encouraged trade, visiting peoples houses (which had shops stocked by themselves), you were put into a realistic world where you did not rely on a LFG feature that shot you into a group of strangers from four other entirely different servers.
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by MMORPGRIP Originally posted by Krimzin I dont know what version of EQ some of these people played. The only solo classes were Druids and Wizards.. both AE Kiting Classes. Rest of the classes needed groups to farm XP.
Definately. It was harder to solo, you had to be much more carefull. Way way easier to solo today.
But the guy saying that only 2 could do it. Dead wrong.
The reason people don't socialize like they did in UO and EQ is that we've learned the internet is a dick.
When we talked to people in UO and EQ we expected people to behave like they do in face to face encounters. We typically behave civilly even if we don't like the person, and perfect strangers are at least passingly polite to each other. When someone didn't behave that way in-game we thought that person is a dick, and went on thinking he was a aberration and most people are friendly.
What we have learned since is that when people are freed of responsibility for their actions and cloaked in anonymity they are dicks. This isn't the exception its the rule. Finding a nice person on an unmoderated forum now is rare, the dicks are the norm. MMOs are for the most part unmoderated forums. You can say the most racist, murderous, sexist, hateful things on global chat and hardly anything ever comes of it. So much so that the most egregious dicks don't find that therapeutic anymore. They have to make it personal.
So what have the now learned and savvy explorers of the internet done? Shut off chat. Turned off tells. They don't want to talk to the unfriendly mobs roaming the internet. They are there just to play a game, and maybe group with some people they've already vetted through a mutual organization such as a guild, that's it.
Some developers have noticed this and thought maybe chat is too hard. It's just too difficult to type when the fighting is at it's highest. So they make local voip channels. No need to group to voip, just talk and people around you will hear you. That will break the ice! And how is it used? To play the most annoying songs a dick can find, on repeat. To fart into the mic, to make themselves so much more annoying than when they were on the chat channel other players turned off.
It has nothing to do with the games. It's us. We know what to expect from the internet now. For many of us that means staying away from the griefers, the gankers, the racists, the shock kiddies, the bad players, the AFKs, and especially the people on the internet that aren't here for entertainment, but for therapy, for mental self-medication.
We are the first generation of the internet society, and we're cavemen.
'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.
When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.
No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.
How to become a millionaire:Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.
Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by aspekx i have never understood why grouping did not give loot or xp bonuses.
It does, a group can go after tougher targets than a solo player so they inherently get extra loot, more xp/hour and higher level weapons than a solo player of the same level.
You're already getting that!
No you don't since all recent games are quest grinds where it does not matter how you killed those X mobs for Y drops. Everyone gets the same experience, solo or in group.
Quest grind focused games are the problem. In GW2 for example, you can just tag along with the people you meet not even trying to kill anything, half asleep at that and you level as fast as everyone else. No one will notice or complain.
Originally posted by Icewhite Originally posted by maccarthur2004 One of the problems with modern mmos, in the vision of the old players, is the reduced or even complete lack of rich social interactions ingame, like in the old generation mmos. The mmos nowadays seens to be lonely experiences, with very little communication between the players, or with fugacious interactions artifficially provided by game tools, without any repercussion to the future or the formation of long-lasting ingame networks or reputations. Well...i played several mmos, like UO, L2, WoW, Tera and some others in little bursts. After stop to think in all them, i came to some personal conclusions about what make a mmo to have a rich social enviroment (like UO and L2) or to be a solo-centric and almost lonely experience (like WoW nowadays, Tera and GW2). The features that social-friendly mmos seens to have in common are: - The activities to get xp or itens aren't so separated by levels or circunstances. As a example: in L2 and UO, players of a wide level range can group together in the same activity by a huge extension of time. A level 50 player can do the same activity of a lv 46 or 55 player, in the same spot, with the same advantages. As a contrast, in the "lonely" mmos, the players are usually separated even when in the same level! In WoW, the players are constantly separated by quest targets, only sometimes the targets can coincide, and hardly this can happen again with the same players. - In the "social" mmos, althought there are solo activities available, to group is almost always advantageous and provide more gains. - In the "social" mmos, there aren't instances. - In the "social" mmos, there aren't fixed factions. - In the "social" mmos, the pvp is open (althought there are harsh penaltys to gank). So, the players are compelled to group to defend yourselves against gankers/enemys, and need to behave well (less rudeness) to avoid becoming targets or being ostracized. - In "social" mmos, the craft provide the better itens and are usually a hard and slow proccess, with specializations. So, that is the points i can remember now. I think these are the "secrets" to make a mmo have a rich social enviroment like formely.
Awful lot of post hoc ergo propter hoc (false cause) happening in those 'secrets'.
Anyone else feel up to tackling them?
Why bother? At best it's just his opinion at worst, well, it's not worth the time to deal with.
Originally posted by taus01 Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by aspekx i have never understood why grouping did not give loot or xp bonuses.
As far as gw 2 goes "If i can auto-target a huge dragon, and buy/sell stuff at the AH at the same time, untill it dies then something wrong"
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 As a contrast, in the "lonely" mmos, the players are usually separated even when in the same level! In WoW, the players are constantly separated by quest targets, only sometimes the targets can coincide, and hardly this can happen again with the same players. When you say social you mean meeting new players, not play with people you already know. Because then you'd play a co-op game instead, right? So that you'll build up a social circle in this game by those people? - In the "social" mmos, althought there are solo activities available, to group is almost always advantageous and provide more gains. See, that's the problem. If you only do it for the advantage of minmaxing you won't bother to get to know the person. You will just silently go through the whole questline and be done with it. Secret is to make a lot of things so hard that you just simply cannot do it solo unless you are over leveled for that area. And making some stuff so boring that you want people with you to talk to meanwhile you are doing mundane tasks such as gathering crafting materials. - In the "social" mmos, there aren't instances. Instances are good. But not where you can queue up and sit in town until something pops up. Would you really want to run a dungeon and in the last minute five more people runs in and kills the last boss whilst your team is recovering their HP? - In the "social" mmos, there aren't fixed factions. This is just... silly. Factions can both be a reason to form social bands such as protecting yourself from an opponent faction's players in open PvP. Like you mentioned below. Wouldn't it be strange if all your sworn enemy races could just join your faction? It's hard to work around that in the lore unless your only race is Human. - In the "social" mmos, the pvp is open (althought there are harsh penaltys to gank). So, the players are compelled to group to defend yourselves against gankers/enemys, and need to behave well (less rudeness) to avoid becoming targets or being ostracized. You can't give a penalty to gank. If there is open world PvP the system cannot differ from whom started it. If one fellow is attacked by the enemy and his friend helps him the system would punish the two of them for "Ganking" when they just protected themselves. And maybe two people are already fighting and a new guy comes in for the fun when passing by. This is just bad. - In "social" mmos, the craft provide the better itens and are usually a hard and slow proccess, with specializations. Crafting is mostly a singleplayer experience. So not until you max it out you'd be able to make any actual trade from it. So, that is the points i can remember now. I think these are the "secrets" to make a mmo have a rich social enviroment like formely.
There are plenty of games where that's not true. Take STO for example. You can take your ship out and do deep space encounters, where you really need a bunch of other players to take down hard targets. These are not things you can do yourself at relatively low level, yet you get 3-4 other ships in the same instance and you can all take down some of the heavy hitters and get lots more experience faster than you ever could on your own. Even on encounters where you can kill all the enemy ships, it might take you 15-20 minutes to clear the system, but with a group of ships, you can clear it in 2-3 minutes, wait the usual 3-4 minutes for respawn and do it again and again, gaining much more XP and drops than you could ever do on your own.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots moreRelatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots moreNow Playing: NoneHope: None
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by MMORPGRIP Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by MMORPGRIP Originally posted by Krimzin I dont know what version of EQ some of these people played. The only solo classes were Druids and Wizards.. both AE Kiting Classes. Rest of the classes needed groups to farm XP.
Oh yes. Definitely did not play EQ very much, if at all...or only played those 2 classes.
But social interaction is not only about chatting while waiting for something. I agree to a point that excessive standing still and waiting is not a good thing, but it is necessary to some degree. It is not good for social interactions if there is constantly something to be done, a daily to farm, a queue that pops up; Everything that paces you forward relentlessly either forced or because you wan't to finish this or that you don't want to miss out on anything.
Back to the point, there are many other ways for "force" socializing than to put in pauses to chat, pauses are just one of these things. Examples:
If you need to talk to others to trade, barter, and meet them physically (in game) instead of the anonymous auction system.
Having to form groups yourself instead of queueing, it doesn't have to be an annoying chore with the right (lfg) tools.
Needing the help of others to to something, and those others needing you. It could be oldschool, rogue needed to pick lock, tracker needed to find the elusive white wolf, or less class focused stuff.
Advantages of grouping over soloing, not only for stuff where a group is needed, but also for stuff that can be soloed. More xp, better loot, whatever.
Etc... the keyword here is ROLES, we need to return ROLES to mmoRpg - (it doesn't have to be classes, it doesn't have to be holy trinity).
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Having a game with a rich social environment requires players that WANT to be social.
Anyone know Bartle test statistics on how common Socializers are?
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
Originally posted by ZombieKen Having a game with a rich social environment requires players that WANT to be social. Anyone know Bartle test statistics on how common Socializers are?
Hmm well I think that depends on how narrow you want to define Socializing. Group mechanics is a form of socializing, raiding is, trading an item is, enchanting someones item is, saying "hey how do you solve the blahdiblah riddle?" is, buffing someone while you run by is (slightly, well atleast two players recognized eachother), putting a lfg message up is, saying "the Awesomenater of War just spawned" is.
Also people go with what the game gives them, if you are "forced" into some form of socializing but aren't that social but like the game otherwise, you will use these features and it will become natural suddenly.
Originally posted by kjempff Originally posted by ZombieKen Having a game with a rich social environment requires players that WANT to be social. Anyone know Bartle test statistics on how common Socializers are?
Or they quit altogether and go play something else. Times are different and people will not stick to doing things they don't want to do...and I for one, don't blame them.
Originally posted by Bossalinie Originally posted by kjempff Originally posted by ZombieKen Having a game with a rich social environment requires players that WANT to be social. Anyone know Bartle test statistics on how common Socializers are?
Yeh. I play games the way i want to. If a game forces me to do anything i deem not fun .. i am out of there and move on. There are tons of other games to play.
If i want to social, i stop a min and go to a chat channel. I don't want a game to limit my choices. If i want to kill stuff, don't add a 10 min break just because.
Originally posted by Icewhite
In my post is written "The features that social-friendly mmos SEENS to have in common", and i stated that is just my opinion/observation. May very well be just a coincidence UO and L2 to have these features and be the most social-friendly from the games cited in the post.
Originally posted by Icewhite Proposition: Games were more social before factions. Demonstrate.
The mmos without premade and fixed factions SEENS to be more social-friendly. A possible logical explanation to this is that premade and fixed factions separate "forever" half the server players from you (in some mmos the oposite factions cant even intercommunicate) and take away from the players the control over who is allied or foe, which for itself reduces the socialization need and importance to the player progression (half of the players are enemies dont matter how good you behave and half of the players are allied dont matter how bad you behave).
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by Icewhite Proposition: Games were more social before factions. Demonstrate.
I've played a few games without factions that are the friendliest games I've played.
I've stated it before and I'll say it again.
All those feature you mention may help... a bit. But IMO the biggest and by far the most significant issue for developing a social environment is the size of the game.
A small playerbase is more like minded and you get to know them better. The bigger the playerbase the more fragmented the community becomes, or rather there are multiple communities now.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Do we really need "rich social interaction" in game? Personally i don't care for it.
In a single player game? no.
Also the thread is directed only to the people that like the social aspect of mmos, so the "must" of rich social interaction is already presupossed here.
Originally posted by RizelStar Rich social environment comes from social people, that is all. Oh and for MMOs, [social people] don't have issues being social or having social moments in MMOs. Takecare. Edited: Mind you it isn't easy, but I guess it's why I and many who I socialize with random and known in a video game end up not having these issues.
I am a very very very social mmo player (i got 115% "killer" and 100% "socializer" in the Bartle Test). Being very interested in the social aspect of mmos, i could see in these mmos i've played that in some (like L2 and UO) the socializing proccess happens almost automatically, while in others (like WoW) seens to have a wrench in the socializing gearing that slows the proccess.
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 Originally posted by nariusseldon Do we really need "rich social interaction" in game? Personally i don't care for it.
At the same time, some of the "fixes" like boring waiting time impact others who just want to play a game.
Plus, it is an open question of how popular "socialization" is .. in a game .. which impacts how likely you see see social heavy games.
Lastly, there are socializing cross-game, and cross-servers. If people like to have a "rich social enviroment", they need to look at that, since a social environment encompassing more than 1 game is certainly more "rich" than a single game.
Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by ReallyNow10 Originally posted by nariusseldon
I don't disagree in general .. but what is "somewhat"? A few golds which is more expensive than a teleport? Is that enough?
I prefer the "chance of a penalty" over an actual determined penalty. Say, if your character dies, there is a 10% chance of an EQ1 penalty. Odds are it will only hit you every 10th death or so, but every single time you're going to sweat.
There is no sensible punishment a game can exact to cause any effect on me. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.
So the actions of gankers cant have any effect in you too. An annoyance isn't better or worse than the other.
Originally posted by maccarthur2004 One of the problems with modern mmos, in the vision of the old players, is the reduced or even complete lack of rich social interactions ingame, like in the old generation mmos. The mmos nowadays seens to be lonely ...
Khm.... are you looking in games replacement for your REAL LIFE social environment? I pitty any1 that does. This should never be all about gaming. Need to socialise? Fine, leave keyboard and go to socialize.