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MMORPGs Are Dead -- How to Resurrect the Genre

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Comments

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon

    Great conversation a year ago. However ...

     

     

    We clearly see what direction mmo development is taking with recent Kickstarter drives and the many sandbox games coming out and in development and the endless forum posts, blogs and even MMORPG staff articles about this subject over the last 2 or more years.

     

    This thread is sort of like deciding to debate what happened to the space shuttle Challenger a year or 2 after the accident when it is already well documented. 

    You stay sassy!

  • GrailerGrailer HamiltonPosts: 876Member Uncommon

    Seems like most MMO's these days are a camp of NPC in an area with ! above head,   you basically do the quests they give you then one quest will lead you to another area with another camp of NPC .

     

    Discovery is dead unless you sway away from the linear questing .

     

    Almost all the quests are solo only so other people are really just annoying because they potentially get in the way of your quest.

     

    You could basically level from 1 to Max level without having a single person on your friends list .

     

    EQ1 did it right in a lot of ways but people whined because it was too hard , instead of looking at the problem they dumbed it down to the discraceful MMO's that we have today .

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by colddog04
    Anyway, I doubt I'm going to convince you of anything. I just think it's tough for those people that are looking for a game to fit them instead of looking to fit into a game.
    It is rough, let me tell ya :)

    I buy clothes that fit, not ones I can change my body into fitting. I play games for enjoyment, not to try to find out where that enjoyment may be hidden.

    I can usually find enjoyment in almost anything I do. It comes down to if that enjoyment is worth the trouble of finding and if it will last long enough to warrant that search.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     

    Originally posted by colddog04
    Anyway, I doubt I'm going to convince you of anything. I just think it's tough for those people that are looking for a game to fit them instead of looking to fit into a game.

    It is rough, let me tell ya :)

     

    I buy clothes that fit, not ones I can change my body into fitting. I play games for enjoyment, not to try to find out where that enjoyment may be hidden.

    I can usually find enjoyment in almost anything I do. It comes down to if that enjoyment is worth the trouble of finding and if it will last long enough to warrant that search.

    Yeah, but that's not really a good analogy because you CAN find a shirt that fits and you apparently CAN NOT find an MMORPG that fits. And the reason is, at least in my opinion, because you have created a shape that only a very specifically shaped shirt will fit. And I don't really mean you specifically, but everyone that is looking so hard to scratch that itch they got from whatever earlier game they were playing that they liked so much.

     

    And here is where this all started: 'I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when."' Do you know if this is even possible?

  • firefly2003firefly2003 Los Angeles, CAPosts: 2,555Member
    Originally posted by ColumbiaTrue

    The quest. The journey. The world. The community. The essential ingredients combined to create an enriching, complex, and satisfying---indeed memorable---MMORPG experience. Today's games fall sort of creating lasting, lifelong memories. Instead, they are designed to provide temporary, fleeting contentment. 

     

    An MMORPG should not just be about the game itself. An MMORPG is more than gaming. It is about building genuine, authentic relationships in an environment conducive to building bonds of friendship. 

     

    An MMORPG world has to feel rich, diverse, and dynamic. Most MMORPG worlds are so static and stale that I cannot bear to play them --- even for free.

     

    The journey. An individual, unique, and customized character. Different from but similar to others. A part of the world and a part of a community. However, the opportunity to define one's own destiny, choose a path (create a path).

     

     

    The problem with the genre today is that they are too much like "GAMES" and not simulated worlds which is what the original MMORPGs were, a 2nd existence which includes all those "boring parts" and "downtime" that all the casuals and mainstream complain about but only a small fraction have ever experienced.

    Today we have not MMORPG's but single player games with online components masquerading as MMO's, too much focused on theme park "hand-holding design" and combat and nonexistent "endgame" with the exception of raids that only a segment of the player bases in all MMOs actually want to play still, pretty much leaving out all other options and play styles for other types of players who like crafting, social events-activities, open world pvp, world building, and other features and mechanics that were abandoned years ago in favor of raiding and shoe box instanced pvp and grinding dailies..... where did we go wrong?

    The community is nonexistent in MMO's cause there is nothing implemented to help those to foster a community, where bad behavior and trolling is rewarded and no tools to punish those who take advantage of the system, in MMORPG's of the past back when they were 2nd existence, a player who tries to manipulate prices on an exchange or from your shop options were there to ban them from buying your goods or entering your stores or even your town, trolls and ninja looters would be put on blacklists and spread around to well known guilds who to ban from their runs. Now all a troll or just a scumbag in a MMO has to do today is change servers or pay to change their name instead of being stuck with a "bad' reputation.

    Convenience, accessibility, and catering to players who playtime spans 1 hr a week has transformed the "simulated worlds" in a simple, single player lobby game all for the sake of the bottom dollar, and what have we gotten as a reward for that "transformation"? A "GAME" ... that people play for 1-3 months before sailing on to the next "game".

    I think developers have forgotten what a MMORPG is and forgot that you can be successful if you make good "2nd Life" no where does it say you need to make billions of this stuff you can be niche and make money if it spread on the good word that will grow into something more than you think it would, too many people want to make it big right off the bat ... it doesn't work like that allow for things to grow and flesh out. Thats the problem, the current generation of players want it NOW NOW NOW!!! or they threaten to leave.

    The current generation of MMORPGs or MMO's in development are shifting slowly back to that simulated world atmosphere experience, and one in particular is Star Citizen which will be the true definition of what a MMORPG is a "2nd existence".

    image

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,761Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    But they DID have a sense of pacing, just not what you found enjoyable. It was just too slow for your tastes. Does not mean they did not have a sense of pacing.

    I agree that some of the time sinks I did not enjoy. But we differ greatly on what a "time sink" is. Anything one does in a game is a "time sink." It takes time away from the player that they could be doing something else. It keeps them playing. Our "tolerances" differ, neither one being "superior."

    That's exactly what a timesink is.  Our definition of timesink isn't different, only what constitutes an empty or excessive timesink.

    A game is going to occupy players' time, and it's up to that game to decide whether they fill the player's time with interesting decisions or whether they force the player to tolerate empty non-gameplay, or excessive repetition.  And those were the primary failings of early MMORPGs, and the reason early MMORPGs were not more successful than they were.  

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    At first, prostitutes are great. You pay for exactly what you think you want & it's way cheaper than an actual relationship. And if you've never had a real relationship, you would wonder why anyone would be in one if you can either pay a prostitute for exactly what you think you need, or pay nothing and pull a manual, solo mission.

    On the other hand, those of us who have had a real relationships know the beauty & fulfillment of the genuine article & you can't fool us with your one dimensional, unskilled, lifeless romp, that is over as soon as it begins. Zero lasting satisfaction.
     

     

    Well said, perhaps you have given those who never experienced what we are talking about a glimpse of what it was like. Still is to a certain extent if you can find a good guild. But that's not easy these days and those guilds are more putting up with the MMO they are playing than loving it.

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member
    Originally posted by ColumbiaTrue

    The quest. The journey. The world. The community. The essential ingredients combined to create an enriching, complex, and satisfying---indeed memorable---MMORPG experience. Today's games fall sort of creating lasting, lifelong memories. Instead, they are designed to provide temporary, fleeting contentment. 

     

    An MMORPG should not just be about the game itself. An MMORPG is more than gaming. It is about building genuine, authentic relationships in an environment conducive to building bonds of friendship. 

     

    An MMORPG world has to feel rich, diverse, and dynamic. Most MMORPG worlds are so static and stale that I cannot bear to play them --- even for free.

     

    The journey. An individual, unique, and customized character. Different from but similar to others. A part of the world and a part of a community. However, the opportunity to define one's own destiny, choose a path (create a path).

     

     

    Plenty of good mmorpg's out there but community ruined it for me thats problem not games it self.

     

    A mmorpg for me can only be fun and last long if community is nice and social and becouse this is not the case anymore i realy dont see how we can ressurect mmorpg genre if community not first change and become as it was 10+  years ago.

    I realy dont see this happen so for me nomatter how good a mmoprg is if its occupide by many rotten apples it becomes rotten from inside like a C......

    I'll stick to co-op and solo and leave mmo for what it is unless drastic changes in behavior and social skills of community suddely change(i very doub that) i prolly won't play mmo's anymore.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by colddog04
    And here is where this all started: 'I just want ONE MMORPG that *I* can enjoy like I did "way back when."' Do you know if this is even possible?
    Is it possible? Of course it is. Will it be done? I highly doubt it.

    Because of the numbers that play these MMOs now for a couple of months and then leave, I do not see a developer/publisher setting their sights lower (number-wise or a more specific audience) for longevity. It is hard for a business to look away from easy money.

    That is big question and wherein lies my "hope." As things look right now, I do not think it will happen.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    At first, prostitutes are great. You pay for exactly what you think you want & it's way cheaper than an actual relationship. And if you've never had a real relationship, you would wonder why anyone would be in one if you can either pay a prostitute for exactly what you think you need, or pay nothing and pull a manual, solo mission.

    On the other hand, those of us who have had a real relationships know the beauty & fulfillment of the genuine article & you can't fool us with your one dimensional, unskilled, lifeless romp, that is over as soon as it begins. Zero lasting satisfaction.
     

     

    Well said, perhaps you have given those who never experienced what we are talking about a glimpse of what it was like. Still is to a certain extent if you can find a good guild. But that's not easy these days and those guilds are more putting up with the MMO they are playing than loving it.

    nah .. sub MMOs charge you for your fun. The better analogy is that you can pay for one mistress until she is old and unappealing, or go for many prostittutes. If you are going to pay for it ... more variety with no commitment is better.

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
     

    Please don't be shy to show me where i insulted people in this topic or generalized them? if anything i am against it and i even used sarcasm in earlier reply to make my point.

     

    "I want every MMO to cater to just my wishes and needs. Because obviously i am 50 years old and the whole world revolves around me."

     

    "It is that time of the week again i guess...

    *MMORPG's are dead and i am the only expert who knows how to bring it back*"

     

    You don't have to apologize to me or anyone for doing it. These are game forums & that is what happens in them. We should all be aware of that. However, you should at least be aware that you're doing it. And if you are aware, pay the other posters the respect of not insulting their intelligence by pretending you're not.

    Using sarcasm to bring forward obvious bias and attacks on a 'group' of individual is not same as actually attacking them. 

    And yes this topic has been recycled many many many times on weekly basis that is why i said 'it is that time of the week again'.

    I know you are trying to get one up on me by trying to make it look as if i am in same category as you but sorry my agenda behind posting in this topic has nothing to do with showing my deep rooted hatred against a particular group..in your case which is 'casuals'.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • SnarlingWolfSnarlingWolf Thereiam, ARPosts: 2,697Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Some MMOs are doing some of the things you're asking for.

    The main issue is you (and others as well) are expecting the game to do all the work for you. You talk about things like the journey, lasting memories & experiences, community, etc. These are things that a game can't just hand you. The most a game can ever do (and has ever done) is to provide a stage, and environment for which such things are possible. It's up to the players to create such things for themselves.

    I can't say I agree with this.

     

    Even though this genre is called mmoRPGs, most people aren't into role playing.

     

    Basically what you've described is instead of taking someone to an amazing movie that takes you on a wonderful and entertaining journey, you're handing them a stack of blank paper and a pencil and telling them to create their own journey.

     

    That is fine for some people, but many others want to experience an amazing journey and games are supposed to create that. This isn't to be confused with theme park vs sandbox either. A sandbox world can have immense story built into it as well.

     

     

    The big problem is most newer MMOs seem to be approaching it from "Here are the same rehashed mechanics that the game needs. Here is the latest art to get peoples attention and make for cool trailers. Hey, do we have time to make this an interesting alive deep world that people will have amazing experiences in? Do we have time to create quests/content that is truly engaging and not kill 10 rats or go in dungeon, kill bad guy, bring back item? If not just ship it with the rehashed mechanics and new art. The rest doesn't matter."

     

    Overall that seems to be the biggest problem for most people. The mechanics are enough to get by if you're new to the genre. If you've played a couple of MMOs, the immersion and depth becomes important. Very rarely does an MMO have that level of depth and immersion. You can see this in all of the other threads on here on topics like "How to revitalize MMO quests" and etc. It all points to the content not being engaging and interesting.

     

    It is like wanting something as interesting and deep as Inception, and instead getting another uncreative flashy Fast and Furious movie. The flash will draw in people and make Fast and Furious a profit so it will keep getting made, but after people have seen it they move on and don't give it another thought where as people are talking about Inception for weeks after.

     

    This is why you see every MMO that is released spike up in users at launch and then by the end of the first month they're already down to 2/3rds of that number and by the end of the second month they're down to under half. That is how quickly people get bored and move on. This isn't some small niche group of old gamers, this is often times millions of users that give up on all these games that quickly. That screams volumes about the genre.

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Antiquated

    Sure one sentence up: These people make it sound as if (etc.)  All properties of an individual are shared by an entire (a bit nebulous) 'these people' group.

    Jim likes fried chicken. All members of (group, label, race, class) must like fried chicken.

    Now you are just reaching and trying too hard. By 'these' people i obviously meant the individuals who are as usual trying to make back handed insults against the 'casual' crowd..in this very topic. Nowhere i tried to give you an impression that i am talking about a larger group outside of this very topic.

    When i am talking about posters in this topic it is not generalization because what i said was based on their own posts about the casuals and those who refuse to agree with their idea of what is a 'quality' MMO.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • UnleadedRevUnleadedRev Boston, MAPosts: 387Member Uncommon

    As much as I HATE to say it...but its all in the hands of Richard Garriot, who created the first MMO, i.e. Ultima Online, and then got rich and blasted off into space or something and got all caught up in that stuff and abandoned all things PC Games...until recently.

    Hopefully, with all the criticism he recently leveled at existing MMOs, he can provide a new and fresh approach...something innovative that breaks the WoW trend.

    I do not count on Chris Roberts or Mark Jacobs to do that.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Grailer

     

     

    Discovery is dead unless you sway away from the linear questing .

    And the solution is to make linear questing fun like in SP games such as Bioshock.

     

    Almost all the quests are solo only so other people are really just annoying because they potentially get in the way of your quest.

    Definitely. Put the quests into solo/group instances so you won't be interfered with. It has the added advantage of having the "world" changing around you like a SP game.

     

    You could basically level from 1 to Max level without having a single person on your friends list .

    A good feature for those who want to play a game, and does not want to socialize.

     

    EQ1 did it right in a lot of ways but people whined because it was too hard , instead of looking at the problem they dumbed it down to the discraceful MMO's that we have today .

    Nope. EQ1 is too boring. Staring at spell books. Line up in a camp site waiting for spawn. If those problems weren't fixed, i won't be playing MMOs today.

     

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Antiquated

    Sure one sentence up: These people make it sound as if (etc.)  All properties of an individual are shared by an entire (a bit nebulous) 'these people' group.

    Jim likes fried chicken. All members of (group, label, race, class) must like fried chicken.

    Now you are just reaching and trying too hard. By 'these' people i obviously meant the individuals who are as usual trying to make back handed insults against the 'casual' crowd..in this very topic. Nowhere i tried to give you an impression that i am talking about a larger group outside of this very topic.

    When i am talking about posters in this topic it is not generalization

    No, you asked someone to show where you were generalizing.

    We all generalize,  it's a pretty standard part of human conversations. Labeling is another standard.

    When you speak to a group instead of in individual, and discuss properties shared by members of that group, what criteria your using to pigeonhole people into easy groups...then yes, by definition, you're generalizing.

    You people, those people, them, themepark fanz, sandbox fanz..."casual crowd", "hardcore crowd"...or even just "you people in this thread".

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • kjempffkjempff AarhusPosts: 883Member Uncommon
    You buy a scroll of resurrection in the item shop.
  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Antiquated

    Sure one sentence up: These people make it sound as if (etc.)  All properties of an individual are shared by an entire (a bit nebulous) 'these people' group.

    Jim likes fried chicken. All members of (group, label, race, class) must like fried chicken.

    Now you are just reaching and trying too hard. By 'these' people i obviously meant the individuals who are as usual trying to make back handed insults against the 'casual' crowd..in this very topic. Nowhere i tried to give you an impression that i am talking about a larger group outside of this very topic.

    When i am talking about posters in this topic it is not generalization

    No, you asked someone to show where you were generalizing.

    We all generalize,  it's a pretty standard part of human conversations. Labeling is another standard.

    When you speak to a group instead of in individual, and discuss properties shared by members of that group, what criteria your using to pigeonhole people into easy groups...then yes, by definition, you're generalizing.

    You people, those people, them, themepark fanz, sandbox fanz..."casual crowd", "hardcore crowd"...or even just "you people in this thread".

    Ok then maybe instead of saying 'these' people i should have just named these 4 or 5 individuals from this topic who were as usual trying to patronize those who disagree with them  as people with lesser tastes and 'clueless younger generation' who know nothing about quality MMOS?

    And we know how well that goes around here. Once again i wasn't talking about any group...or was trying to generalize people but specifically talking about those who made the above comments in this topic.

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by UnleadedRev

    As much as I HATE to say it...but its all in the hands of Richard Garriot, who created the first MMO, i.e. Ultima Online, and then got rich and blasted off into space or something and got all caught up in that stuff and abandoned all things PC Games...until recently.

    Hopefully, with all the criticism he recently leveled at existing MMOs, he can provide a new and fresh approach...something innovative that breaks the WoW trend.

    I do not count on Chris Roberts or Mark Jacobs to do that.

    lol .. RG is a has-been, and have not made a good game for more than a decade. His new game is not even a full MMO. I have zero faith in this man.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by Antiquated

    Sure one sentence up: These people make it sound as if (etc.)  All properties of an individual are shared by an entire (a bit nebulous) 'these people' group.

    Jim likes fried chicken. All members of (group, label, race, class) must like fried chicken.

    Now you are just reaching and trying too hard. By 'these' people i obviously meant the individuals who are as usual trying to make back handed insults against the 'casual' crowd..in this very topic. Nowhere i tried to give you an impression that i am talking about a larger group outside of this very topic.

    When i am talking about posters in this topic it is not generalization

    No, you asked someone to show where you were generalizing.

    We all generalize,  it's a pretty standard part of human conversations. Labeling is another standard.

    When you speak to a group instead of in individual, and discuss properties shared by members of that group, what criteria your using to pigeonhole people into easy groups...then yes, by definition, you're generalizing.

    You people, those people, them, themepark fanz, sandbox fanz..."casual crowd", "hardcore crowd"...or even just "you people in this thread".

    Ok then maybe instead of saying 'these' people i should have just named these 4 or 5 individuals from this topic who were as usual trying to patronize those who disagree with them  as people with lesser tastes and 'clueless younger generation' who know nothing about quality MMOS?

    And we know how well that goes around here. Once again i wasn't talking about any group...or was trying to generalize people but specifically talking about those who made the above comments in this topic.

    You young varmints! If you get up to too much shannanigans we will beat you with our zimmer frames! :)

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