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Reticule VS Tab target - your thoughts?

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  • kiravelikiraveli Magical city in the sky, CTPosts: 63Member
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    Tab target, if you want any social aspect to the game.

    If you're twitching, you ain't typing, and if you ain't typing, you ain't talking.

     

    There's this wonderful thing called voice chat. You know, actually talking to another human being with your voice. 

    Yeah, and in a dungeon, what you experience is "Player A, your job is to do this, Player B, your job is to do that, Player C, your job is...."  Basically, it's used for calling tactics; calling the shots.

    Twitch play is for teens and tweens and not really good for roleplay.  Leave it to the coop shooters where it belongs (and voice chat with it).

    After reading the caption under your avatar, I'm not going to even bother explaining why you're wrong, but you are. 

     

    Ahh...because only YOU can be right? People are entitled to their opinions, even you.

     

    If a game had voice chat I wouldn't use it anyway since most of the time people just harass each other. I found in GW2 no one cared to talk to anyone or group with anyone. Too busy spamming circles to care other people exist. DPS zerg it down! 

    GW2 to me felt like the game was unsure if it was action or tabtarget. I used a mod to lock my mouse but it felt a bit clunky, but still far smoother than otherwise. I did enjoy Tera though, and had no issues talking to people when I did group stuff. I guess it depends how action combat oriented the game is, such as to the point where you don't have time to ever type. 

     

    As for which is better, reticule to me is just moving your mouse to target the person, I dunno. When you think about it all you're doing is more work to just autoattack with all this hold down button to attack. I'd rather spare my mouse the torture and have an autoattack or something. The games usually don't feel full actiony.

     

    I really miss community in games, though =(

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,854Member Uncommon
    ESO will have aimed combat. Personally I don't care, tab hurts the wrist a little less though lol. If an MMO has a lot of PvP I like aimed for the added difficulty.

    As the title I'm most looking forward to I wonder what EQN will have. For now ESO is really intriguing because if it's aimed combat and faction PvP, among other things.
  • AirwrenAirwren Normal, ILPosts: 646Member
    Originally posted by Scalpless

    As a fan of various real action games, I've always found MMO "action" a bit ridiculous. People say TERA requires skill because of its reticule-based combat, but how much skill do you need to hit a slow-moving monster that covers half of your screen? Quake 3 requires skill. CS requires skill. TERA's aiming? Please. It's so easy you might as well switch to tab targeting. Besides, many action games, including series like Devil May Cry, let you lock on an enemy, which is exactly what tab targeting does. Is anyone here going to claim DMC is less of an action game than TERA?

    I still haven't seen an open-world MMO with what I'd call action combat. Out of instanced games, Vindictus and C9 come pretty close, but unfortunately they aren't great otherwise.

    Lmao, you pretty much typed the response I had in my head for this.  In the end I don't prefer one or the other because most of them are easy.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon

    with the exception of Eve Online, 'targetting' is not an action that the character does. it's an action that the player does. as such it is not relevant to the gameplay how its done.

     

    I find mouse-targetting the easiest and most precise so that's what I prefer.

     

    see the game through the eyes of your character for a second, and you'll realise there is no targetting as far as he is concerned.

     

     

    image

  • DeivosDeivos Mountain View, CAPosts: 1,818Member Uncommon

    In a game that's trying to balance fun and challenge for a large amount of people, along with technical capability, I find soft locking to be functionally a pretty comfortable concept.

    So I'd lean towards reticule style combat, while noting that it's not a shooter style mechanic that is driving how the reticule works. This is more or less how some of the action MMOs out already work, though it sees varying degrees of tolerance and success based on how responsive and how 'tight' it feels. 

     

    An example of it somewhat done 'wrong' might be referenced in Tabula Rasa, where the game presented itself much in th same way as a reticule based combat system, but you could still tab to enemies that were more or less parallel to you and shoot them.

    It caused quite a bit of a response form players feeling the game was a poor system for a game where most people were using guns. I enjoyed it myself, but I did feel that it was a bit 'loose' as far as targeting a foe went.

     

    People have already commented on the matter of challenge, so I'll just note the feel. The thing I like about reticule style combat, even in soft locks, is that it makes the play feel closer to to the character. When I simply tab and watch my character go, there's a much more obvious disconnect for me.

    If we can bridge that gap with a system that can give me an experience that is ever so much closer to a one to one translation of my actions into the game, then I am happier. Reticule combat helps me get a bit closer to that feeling, and for that I prefer it.

    This might not be a universal notion, but that's my opinion at any rate.

    "The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners."
    - Thomas B. Macaulay

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Zooce
    How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire?  Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.
    Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?

    For me, tab targeting hands down. Like others, I get overly tired in action combat games. I do like the dodge mechanic, though. Tab Targeting handles this as a dice roll (Random Number Generator) if there is a dodge skill, which is fine for me.

    Neither Tab Targeting nor Reticule handle misses, though. How far does that arrow or bullet go after missing the target to the left? Does it hit another monster in another close area? No. It misses and disappears, falling harmlessly to the ground "somewhere." Would reticule targeting be as fun then? Having mobs adding onto a fight when a player misses would cause all kinds of grief.

    The biggest reason I prefer tab targeting is that my character, not me, is doing the combat. My mouse control is not good. Hopefully, my character is much better at aiming than I am :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Zooce
    How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire?  Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.

    Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?

     

    Eve.

     

    it doesn't have any sense of 'friendly'. if you target a ship and hit the 'remote armor repair' module it will 'heal' it. friendly ? hostile ? neutral ? npc ? the module doesn't know the difference. it does as it's told. Same with guns. you tell it to shoot it shoots.

     

    in fact a frindly dreadnaught got doomsdayed yesterday in Dreklein. :)

    image

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member

    Reticule combat far exceeds tab target in every way shape and form. It takes way more skill. Tab target all you have to do is manage your action bar. Reticule you have to manage your action bar, your position constantly and your aim. 

    "Oops I tabbed the wrong target" if that happens in any tab target game you are rollin with some seriously bad players. Especially with assist target commands and target of target etc. 

    Where as in an MMO like TERA. Just the mob moving slightly can cause hell on your party. Attacks don't follow the target like they would in a tab Target if the mob moves a bit. In a game like TERA you have to make sure that Fireblast or Thunderstrike hits only the targets you want it to via positioning and aiming. Or your CC lands and the mob/player doesn't dodge it before it goes off. Not tab and auto hit with every CC/dmging move. 

    You think rotation and dps can be difficult in tab target on bosses... Yeah keep your deeps up on a moving target that your abilities dont track for you. Constantly dodging mob attacks that can one shot you at any moment. Yea... 

     

    TERA has FF to a degree as well. If you are trying to help someone outlawed or a friend that isnt in your party etc can get ugly if you aren't careful. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • AtmaDarkwolfAtmaDarkwolf Edmonton, ABPosts: 353Member

    If the game is TACTICAL, then yes, sure tab mashing, f-key slappin might be the way to go, esp when as time goes by(and u get deeper into end game) the WRONG action can turn the tide in your opponents favor. Eve is an example of this. Eve WORKS as a tab masher(Cuz anyone who has played even knows that mindlessly mashing the tab key and slapping uour guns on is just plain stupid)

     

    But if the game is ACTION, tab mashing, drooling retard facerolling accross the keyboard DOES NOT mean your 'more skilfull' because you have '+10 sword of superdoom' and 'more skills to mash at once' or 'can write better macro's' or 'has right character skill generator to plan out the perfect toon'

     

    no none of that is SKILL. Yes it takes some thought to plan out what to get in what slots, but in most cases, just having 'derp derp da bigger numbars' means you win. Simple as that.

     

    With twitch based games where your LIMITED in your selection of skills, where gear means less, yet STILL means something (As in you have to choose WHAT to slot into which gear space to best fit your abilities), the ability to not only react and 'dodge' when needed, but the ability to also JUDGE when its best to dodge or not.

     

    Old folks who take 15 seconds to react to that dragon rearing up to breath fire, should stick with single player old style turn based 'the dragon rears up and begins to breath fire, what will you do?' -- give you plenty of time to scratch your bed-sore ridden arse from sitting in that chair the last 22 hours, or peel yourself out of said chair to head to the cupboard to get yourself your cheezo's and mountain dew, or type out a 3 paragraph instruction manual to your buddies all raging at you for taking forever to finish your turn... (LOL yea I had fun with this last paragraph)

     

     

    I am nearing 40. I ain't no teeniebopper, I am not a counterstrike kiddie, I value thought, tactics, intelligence, and planning, but when I PLAY a game, I WANT the game to get my blood rolling, i want to test my limits at hand-eye coordination, reaction times, etc(at least somewhat, I don't want to be over-tested lol) - Point is, all tab target, skill-key mashing games I have played, or know of, are SKILLLESS, as in it takes ZERO SKILL, both in tacitcs, planning, reaction times, thought, etc, to play. What makes them worse is the (Seemingly global problem of all games) *GET QUEST HERE* icons or autoroute functions, etc, which just dumb games down so much. -- With games like wow, u can 'bypass' any need of any 'skill' with better gear, skill planners, macro's, etc. The amount of mental thought needed to play is near zero. The amount of hand eue coordination is even less. It all comes down to 'DERP DERP MOB DERP DERP FACEROLL KEYBOARD DERP DERP HJEEEEEAAAL DERP DERP' (Hell, most times u don't even have to worry about facing the mob)

  • PulsarManPulsarMan Tampa, FLPosts: 289Member
    I enjoy both. I'm entirely okay with the two existing together from game to game. 
  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member

    I prefer TAB for fantasy mmos (which I often click on stuff anyway, unless I am in a group assisting), action is fine for a FPS.  I do not like the mouse being locked though, seems to take away a great PC tool when it is.

     

  • Vunak23Vunak23 In your house eatin'' your cookies, FLPosts: 635Member

    Start it at 11:50 for the better part of the video. 

     

    Note: These fights are on the easiest setting and the instance itself isn't very hard in itself compared to some of the other Raids/instances. 

    "In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  • NamelessCNamelessC New York, NYPosts: 26Member Uncommon
    Turn-based game seems to be the answer for you.
  • MkilbrideMkilbride Hooksett, NHPosts: 637Member Uncommon

    I played Tera. Hardly skill based. That game was so easy I fell asleep during it. Want an actually hard game? Try The Secret World. In terms of difficulty it is miles ahead of Tera.

     

    Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.

     

    Then the game just got kind of boring.

     

    I love my action based combat, but this is skill based(video I am putting in the post)

     

    Tera is not.

     

    As I said in my first one, both have their own requirements. I am pretty disappointed rather than form actual debates, people are just going "NO MINE REQUIRES MORE SKILL", instead of, ya know...telling us why.

     

    Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"

    Help get Camelot Unchained made, a old-school MMORPG, with no hand holding!

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,916Member Uncommon

    Both, as different systems work better for different styles of play.

    TAB targeting for RPG purposes (easier to communicate, less immersion breaking form of communication).

    Voice chat/Twitch for PVP gaming. More fun as far as game-play goes, though it doesn't make a game better by itself. I've actually had the most fun in old school tab targeting games that focused on community.

     

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    There genuinely is a difference in how tightly different players want to be pulling the strings, between players who want to micromanage the character's every twitch as if a spirit possessing the body and players who simply want to whisper in the character's ear and watch what unfolds as an aloof observer.  Different targeting systems appeal to different points along that curve of control: point the weapon vs choose the target.

     

  • DrekorDrekor Griffith, ONPosts: 22Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by ReallyNow10
    Tab target, if you want any social aspect to the game.

    If you're twitching, you ain't typing, and if you ain't typing, you ain't talking.


    If you're talking in the middle of a fight it's rather clear the content is pretty weak for a challenge perspective. The primary reason most people in guilds use voice comms is to avoid having to type as it's a liability under ANY system. While public voice is craziness it's pretty standard in guilds that have any inclination to face a challenge.

    Using reticules and "action" style combat creates a lot of small nuances of very simple things like movement, timing and precision that make a BIG deal. Once you get into tab targeting I have to ask the question why do you need the game to do something so basic yet integral in combat such as targeting? It's usually because they've added excessive complexity to skills. For example if you look at something like WoW or Rift where you have many hotbars worth of skills most of which you don't even use regularly. I ask you what takes more skill from the player? Memorizing a rotation of 15 different abilities or having to actively adjust your reticule against a moving target to land even the most basic attacks? Considering you could just get even get addons to tell you what the rotation you need to use is I'd rather go with the reticule and ensure player skill is properly rewarded.

    As an aside if the game is supposed to be played more strategically or tactically(something like EVE) a tab targeting system is ok since the actual combat is less of an issue than the end result.

    Drekor Silverfang
    The Shipwrecked Pirates

  • thinktank001thinktank001 oasisPosts: 2,028Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mkilbride
     
      

    What are your thoughts?

     

     

    Action combat doesn't have a place in MMORPGs at this point in time.   We just don't have the technology, or the infrastructure to offer a quality gaming experience.         

  • phumbabaphumbaba kuopioPosts: 138Member
    Originally posted by Mkilbride

    Enemies in Tera were big and slow, and solo-able if you weren't an idiot. I hit LV.18 and Solo'd my first BAM, a Basalisk, it took me about 10-12 minutes...was very exciting.

    .

    .

    .

    Is it to much to ask? I thought it might be...just for people to list both sides of the argument. Why you think one is more skill based than the other, and why the other isn't skill based, other than the "That's dinosaur stuff!"

    tera bams n bosses get a bit faster towards the end, but ultimately i agree with you (solo content in tera is...)

    As to the topic itself, neither breaks the game for me, but here are some aspects to them.

    Tab-targetting: requires generally a bit less concentration and the screen can seem a bit stagnant if compared directly. Easier to track aoe's and other stuff during fights. Less problems with lag.

    Reticule: constant moving of the screen can get tiresome. Soft-targeting helps this but greatly diminishes the skill involved. Having to actually follow the target might increase immersion for some, but the constant movement might decrease it for some. More vulnerable to lag.

    Ultimately the tactics aren't affected and both combats can be effectively fast enough. I tend to think both have their demands.

    Personally I think tab-targetting allows for faster combat without the fight getting too chaotic. For some of us, too much chaos => head aches / stress => not fun:D E.g. tera endgame bosses fast movement with oneshot mechanisms that you just  need to learn through repetition.. well.. of course many find that fun too as it can be considered challenging:)

  • ReesRacerReesRacer Dallas, TXPosts: 155Member Uncommon

    say what you like about STO's ground combat, but the option to do either tab-targeting or reticule-aiming is still fairly progressive as far as options are concerned. rightly maligned from the start, that aspect of STO has, in fact, improved dramatically in the last three years.

    perfect?---no. but as far as having the choice for whatever my mood or requirements are at the time?---yes.

  • DivonaDivona WellingtonPosts: 175Member

    I prefer tab-targeting over action based because I'm not looking for challenge in MMORPG, but more of the social aspect like the good old Dungeons and Dragons tabletop gaming with friends in the basement. If I want action, I would just go play sport.

    With tab-targeting, I can control character with one hand while having drinks and snacks on the other. It's a much relaxing gaming environment.

    It is a complete different game design aspect target different type of audience, and both has it place in the world.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Robokapp

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

    Originally posted by Zooce
    How does a tab-target game incorporate friendly-fire?  Anyone with minimal fps experience knows FF requires more skill.
    Are there MMOs that handle friendly fire?
    Eve.

    it doesn't have any sense of 'friendly'. if you target a ship and hit the 'remote armor repair' module it will 'heal' it. friendly ? hostile ? neutral ? npc ? the module doesn't know the difference. it does as it's told. Same with guns. you tell it to shoot it shoots.

    in fact a frindly dreadnaught got doomsdayed yesterday in Dreklein. :)


    That is awesome! One thing I miss from my D&D days is that our DM was big on friendly fire. It added so much to the combat and decisions to be made by the group.

    [EDIT]
    GRATZ! Mkilbride, on the Spotlight post!

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AtmaDarkwolfAtmaDarkwolf Edmonton, ABPosts: 353Member
    Originally posted by tank017

    The Secret World has both options.They both come in handy imo.Reticule helps mix things up a bit and keeps things fresh.For my play style it also lets me pick a target faster.

     

    I think MMO's would benefit by following Funcom's lead by incorporating both options.That way people can choose whatever style they want.

     

     

    a win win

    er... ya... no.

     

    TSW's 'action reticule' option is ... trash. Its a quick cut n' paste some random code into game to make it LOOK like action, but it is in fact NOT at all 'reticule based combat'

     

    For most things you still have to drop to free mouse to manage. And aside from all that, its clunky as hell, and the camera is forced off to the right of your character(which imo, is shitty 'mouse look' and I wish devs would STOP giving that over-the-sholder as our only option.)

     

     

    What TSW delivers on is a very decent story, a unique 'world' and atmosphere, and some really neat options when getting skills. What it does NOT deliver on is any real 'skill' based combat. During the beta(and the very, very recent 'trial' i just did this morning) 99% of people can get by with the ol' 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1,3 and to spice it up now and then, a 4, 5 or maybe a 6.  I mean its great if u want to wear out only the first few keys on your keyboard, but other than that...

     

     

    *But even saying that, and even with how much I detest tab facemash keyboard games, I would suggest anyone give TSW a run, at least for the trial, the game DOES deserve to be played*

  • keenberkeenber galwayPosts: 438Member
    Reticule aiming should be left to single player and ffps games. The biggest problem with reticule is it kills the healer class which in turn makes the game too easy to solo with any class and that is not what a mmorpg should be.
  • RoxtarrRoxtarr Freeland, MI, MIPosts: 1,122Member
    I'm not a fan of losing control of my camera just to attack something. I also disable 'smart camera' in games as well, since often strategic play involves watching your back while performing an action with your character. Camera targeting isn't more difficult, it's just annoying.

    If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
    image

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