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Reticule VS Tab target - your thoughts?
Mkilbride
Member UncommonPosts: 643
I see alot of threads about how reticule is the future of MMORPGs, that action combat requires more skill and somehow has more depth. That all MMORPG's should adopt such a system.
I personally don't believe this. I thought it was so, years ago when Vindictus game out, I was super amazed, and Reticule can be very fun. However MMORPG's really are meant for the long-haul and I find it can become tiring after awhile, being constantly vigilant. You got a scratch? You can't or you die. You wanna eat a snack while grouping? Can't. Wanna mindlessly grind some task? Can't.
Then there is also the debate about how it's more "skill based." one could make this argument, but I disagree again. I am a lover of games like Jedi Academy, Devil May Cry, Chivalry, Mount & Blade. But really it becomes almost the same after awhile. Press keys 1-4 for your attacks, or RMB / LMB top perform a combo. It ends up just being as monotone as Tab target can be - except you've got to put alot energy into it.
Tab target on the other hand, allows for better animations, more interesting skills, and depth that you can't have with action based combat. They both have their ups and downs, but after years of believing how action combat such as Vindictus was going to revolutionize the MMORPG, and how it must be more skill based, I've played alot of new MMOs since then and changed my opinion on the matter.
Both require skill. That's why I dislike fans of reticule who say they won't play a MMO without "action combat", because it's not skill based. I also dislike fans of tab target who won't do action combat because they say they don't want twitch based skill in a game. One requires dexterity, the other theoretical thinking. Both require their own type of skill, neither is more skill based in the end, I find.
What are your thoughts?
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Comments
I like both but I do like the mechanics of aiming my skills because it does take more skill. Having to aim a skill is and will always be much harder then auto lock. Its like playing a shooter with autotarget and manual target. One is just easier.
But I do agree it does tend to get tedious after awhile aiming all the time.
I like both but I think most players now are just tired of the same ol garbage so they like having to aim now.
Aiming isn't hard or very skillful in my opinion. One could make a game where you had to hop on one leg to use abilities. That would require skill as well, but after some time it would just make me tired.
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Tab targeting is old, tedious, slow and boring.
Its like the old saying, when you once go black, you never..... Same for reticule/action combat.
It also about the combat being fun, engaging you and making you pay attention. IMO action combat does this better.
You heard of voice chat? Try it out.
I think the problem used to be that hardware and internet speeds weren't fast enough for Action MMOs. Now, since the problem has mostly gone away, the path is clear.
There is literally NO doubt in my mind that Reticule combat requires far more skill, as it adds 1 particularly important element: dodging. The single simple idea that u can (and need to) dodge some attacks is pretty much the most interesting part about modern MMOs.
Note that any MMO with soft-targeting (e.g. GW 2) is, in my eyes, a "reticule" combat game, as it allows for any swings to hit multiple opponents, projectiles to get blocked by solid objects, etc. + dodging. And people in these games cry a lot due to stuff being "omg impossible" because they're used to simply getting top-gear and face-rolling everything in the game.
Heck, go into Neverwinter (Online) right now, group up, u'll notice that 80% of all players are mindless retards who can't dodge, can't aim a skill, nothing (but most have virtually the best gear available due to the cash-shop). Which is probably why Tab-targeting is more enjoyable in MMOs...skill there is far less important; you have the gear, you can do the content...don't have the gear, probably can't do it. And for others, anyone can simply inspect you to see how likely u are to be decent, and won't risk wasting hours in a dungeon trying to explain the concept of "dodge big bad attacks".
Lool yea okay, if that is the bar, sure, tab targetting takes skills as well "rolls eyes"
Laugh all you want, I have seen many wipes cause some idiot tabs the wrong mob and brings a train onto the group. I would in fact argue that tab targeting, especially in a dungeon full of mobs can require more skill than reticule targeting. Not all mmos make tab target the next closest mob which can cause lots of problems if you are not good at it.
If tab targeting weren't so boringly similar to everything else with tab targeting I might still like it. The only great advantage with it is you can hit targets that don't make sense because of LoS. A massive attack goes through your team leader and an enemy to land a devastating hit to some guy's face 30m away. If aiming, something like that would take some navigating before your shot lines up without obsticals(which could be fun). Aiming and attacking has always felt more active. Even more so in FPV. Ok, so maybe you can't eat a sandwhich, chat with your friends, while on a murderous rampage. Not all of them need to be that casual anyway.
I guess it depends on what the player considers "skills". As you mentioned, they take different types of skill. While tab-targeting has it's decisions to be made (spell choices/ combos, where to stand, who to target, and so on), it just seems to me that active targeting has all of them; plus aiming and moving too. If you can eat a sandwich while in combat in one and not in the other it would seem like the latter would require more "combat" type skills. Eating a sandwich should be more of a crafting time kind of thing. Just my opinion.
As a fan of various real action games, I've always found MMO "action" a bit ridiculous. People say TERA requires skill because of its reticule-based combat, but how much skill do you need to hit a slow-moving monster that covers half of your screen? Quake 3 requires skill. CS requires skill. TERA's aiming? Please. It's so easy you might as well switch to tab targeting. Besides, many action games, including series like Devil May Cry, let you lock on an enemy, which is exactly what tab targeting does. Is anyone here going to claim DMC is less of an action game than TERA?
I still haven't seen an open-world MMO with what I'd call action combat. Out of instanced games, Vindictus and C9 come pretty close, but unfortunately they aren't great otherwise.
I enjoy playing both, but from a social gaming perspective, tab target wins hands down. I can't voice chat with a guild full of people anymore than I can hold six conversations at once in a crowded room.
I know the example I'm about to use is, strictly speaking, tab target, but bear with me. Anyone remember when AoC launched? It required constant eyes and hands on the computer. I'd send my buddy a tell and wouldn't get a response until he was out of combat if he was able to respond at all. Now sure if you were one of those asshats camping the spawn point on the FFA server then you had all the time in the world to type, but otherwise it felt more of a hassle than not. With a tab target game, I can just veg out and do whatever.
I won't say that they require equal skill nor will I say that one requires more than the other. It's like saying basketball requires more "skill" than Nascar because you have to run fast and jump high in basketball, but anyone can drive a car. Not gonna beat the dead horse on that argument, but I will say that in most action oriented MMOs the end game encounters tend to be more dynamic, but less strategic at least in my experience.
Here's an example: Love WoW or hate it, it matters little to me, but you can't deny Blizzard's ability to create great dynamic raid encounters. All of these interesting fights we see, like Instructor in Naxx 60 for example, were possible because everyone's combat mechanic is the same. Take Neverwinter on the other hand. Sure dodging separates the bads from the goods in many cases, and that's a mechanic I can really appreciate, but encounters are relatively generic. I'm not saying brilliant encounters can't be done, but it takes a ton of effort, and most developers take the route of least resistance for balance purposes.
I'm getting a little off track here. Action MMOs are the current trend, and I think that's great. It has a lot going for it, but don't discount the many benefits of a tab target system in your quest to stay on top of the Who's Who List of MMOs.
Same. I want to be able to talk with my guildies in TS while I am doing stuff. I also like to have plenty of skills. Maybe I am an old school player as well
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There's this wonderful thing called voice chat. You know, actually talking to another human being with your voice.
The issue isnt just about eating food while playing, you actually lose a lot of the social aspects to the game. couple that with fast respawning mobs and you can forget about chatting with the folks. I dont hate reticule targeting as it can make for interesting fun, I just prefer tab targeting in mmos.
Not everybody use it. And some people can't. I had a very good friend in guild who was deft. We played a lot together. TS was not an option here.
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Imperial Agent - Hunt for the Eagle Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQqjYYU128E
I'm with you on that. Timing and accuracy is the bread and butter of action games, most MMO are for the most part strategy based and memory based. But MMOs are so repetitive the strategy is pretty much lost until you come up against a really difficult mob. Of course there is PVP which seems to combine everything.
With voice chat you cant be simultaneously in guild, group, and general chat all at once. Plus, a lot of people don't use it for many valid reasons.
I enjoy both, I think there is a place for both in the genre. There is merit and downside to using both.
Reticule:
Pros: Aiming gives players a heightened sense of control, feels more engaging during combat sequences, all skills effectively are area damage skills or directional skills, more realistic as far as player views go
Cons: Pinpoint accuracy can be a massive deterrent when players miss their target by a small margin, targeting issues when 2+ targets stand too closely, doesn't allow players to be aware of what is happening in other directions, Lag in PvP is a deal breaker
Tab-Target:
Pros: Allows players to have consistent targets, view from any angle during combat, more specific targeting, less realistic to allow players to do things like kiting and casting instant cast spells in mid-air with pinpoint accuracy without aiming
Cons: Less realistic combat and views, tab-target may not target the target you wish to target, line of sight issues aka the molehill is now a mountain and you can't see past a waist high fence, may be looking in the wrong direction during combat
I like Tab-targetting for games that are more fantasy oriented and require you to use specific skills on specific enemies. Reticule is good for more action oriented games that use skill combos consistently.
I equate Reticule gameplay more to playing a FPS in the sense that it gives you exactly what you expect to happen exactly when you expect it to happen on what you are currently focusing on. Tab-targeting is more like an old school RPG where certain things may go wrong but sometimes you figure something out like a cool combo that isn't given to you.
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