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Themepark pvp > Sandbox pvp

lolunaticlolunatic Mesa, AZPosts: 108Member

I think themeparks are WORLDS better for legitimate pvp than sandboxes.

 

Eve for example.

The game is based around this skill queue where you can just pile on skills and they'll train and you'll get whatever benefits when they are done training. The problem is that you can have any skill you want, no skill cap, so players who having been playing since the game released have a distinct advantage over any players that haven't.  I know  eve doesn't have traditional combat, barely combat at all. But what it comes down to is your ship and the books you've trained. Not actual player skill. And other sandboxes that have come out are similar to that, AoW with inner/ scrolls, DARKFALL with the redic grind(I'm not sure about the new one never played).

Themeparks to me just seem a whole lot more sportier, instead of the whole "you haven't played for a year so I shit on you instantly" deal. Devs usually work aggressively on the class balance(not counting non triple a mmos), you can't stack to many things on one character for the most part, op items are usually banned from pvp, the list really goes on and on. 

 

TL;DR: Sandbox = get shit on by people who have played since day 1, or just generally play a lot more than you, then strive to grind endlessly till the day you MIGHT catch up with them.

themepark = play a little bit, get geared quickly, become competitive then strive to become a better player to beat BETTER players

 

 

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Comments

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lolunatic

    The problem is that you can have any skill you want, no skill cap, so players who having been playing since the game released have a distinct advantage over any players that haven't.  I know  eve doesn't have traditional combat, barely combat at all. But what it comes down to is your ship and the boo

    flawed. skills aren't linear.

     

    it's a common mistake people make about eve's skills. 

     

    I'm in a frigate right now and my dreadnaught skills have no effect on tonight's fleet.

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  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    They both have their place and fans, but I agree and prefer balance.

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  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member
    That's why Lineage 1 > any OWpvp game because there's a solid pk and clan war - politics system. It is not random ganking randoms. And L1 still makes more money that other OWpvp MMO on the market, even with L1 only on eastern market.
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    too much balance and you're in queue for a battleground...

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  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,753Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    too much balance and you're in queue for a battleground...

    Can we remove gear/level advantage too and focus purely on skillful competition?  Then sign me up!

    PVP involving significant non-skill factors is boring.  You're either stomped by players who weren't more skilled, or you stomp players easily without effort and there's no fight.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member
    BGs are just the result of the lack  of any pvp rules for open world, thats why all theme park are carebears, they don't know what is a solid pk/guild war system, they think owpvp is just high levels ganking low levels without cosnequences, as you see in pvp servers of most themepark games.
  • muchavezmuchavez asdf, VAPosts: 200Member
    if you're looking for skill based gameplay you are on the wrong genre lol.
  • radiosradios Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 10Member
    Yes. Playing 87 games of Huttball is certainly more skillful and entertaining then fights anywhere at anytime.
  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    too much balance and you're in queue for a battleground...

    Can we remove gear/level advantage too and focus purely on skillful competition?  Then sign me up!

    PVP involving significant non-skill factors is boring.  You're either stomped by players who weren't more skilled, or you stomp players easily without effort and there's no fight.

    sounds like you're trying to find in MMOs what is not a typical MMO feature. have you tried MOBAs ?

     

    MMOs make weak e-sports. they're just not designed for it. 

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    too much balance and you're in queue for a battleground...

    Can we remove gear/level advantage too and focus purely on skillful competition?  Then sign me up!

    PVP involving significant non-skill factors is boring.  You're either stomped by players who weren't more skilled, or you stomp players easily without effort and there's no fight.

    Just play pure pvp instanced games like LoL or WoT.

  • KuppaKuppa Boulder, COPosts: 3,292Member Uncommon
    Lol ya pit a guy who beats everyone up with gear vs one who beats em with skill to see what happens.

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  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    too much balance and you're in queue for a battleground...

    One of the greatest posts I've read on this forum, because it's so true.

  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by lolunatic

    I think themeparks are WORLDS better for legitimate pvp than sandboxes.

     

    Eve for example.

    The game is based around this skill queue where you can just pile on skills and they'll train and you'll get whatever benefits when they are done training. The problem is that you can have any skill you want, no skill cap, so players who having been playing since the game released have a distinct advantage over any players that haven't.  I know  eve doesn't have traditional combat, barely combat at all. But what it comes down to is your ship and the books you've trained. Not actual player skill. And other sandboxes that have come out are similar to that, AoW with inner/ scrolls, DARKFALL with the redic grind(I'm not sure about the new one never played).

    Themeparks to me just seem a whole lot more sportier, instead of the whole "you haven't played for a year so I shit on you instantly" deal. Devs usually work aggressively on the class balance(not counting non triple a mmos), you can't stack to many things on one character for the most part, op items are usually banned from pvp, the list really goes on and on. 

     

    TL;DR: Sandbox = get shit on by people who have played since day 1, or just generally play a lot more than you, then strive to grind endlessly till the day you MIGHT catch up with them.

    themepark = play a little bit, get geared quickly, become competitive then strive to become a better player to beat BETTER players

     

     

    Agree 100% i don't agree with any of the counter arguments in this thread either.

    Play Lol or Wot? I mean yeah i've played LoL understand its a much better designed esport, however in no way shape or form would i say its fair to ignore modern AAA expectations and tell us to play a game with warcraft 3 graphics for pvp needs.

    themepark pvp such as WoW arenas or GW1/GW2 spvp is much more entertaining when balanced/done right than sandbox or mobas.

    LoL = click click click, gets old some prefer wasd and mouse

    Edit: Open world pvp can also be done correctly in themepark games as well, for those who want something more spontaneous and with different strategy.  I still prefer themepark open world pvp with sandbox elements over full blown sandbox for reasons stated, those who play more/started earlier are always advantaged.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by jskeets916

     

    LoL = click click click, gets old some prefer wasd and mouse

    Like in a fps ?

    mmo pvp is lame.

  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by jskeets916

     

    LoL = click click click, gets old some prefer wasd and mouse

    Like in a fps ?

    mmo pvp is lame.

    yeah like in an fps, but what if someone doesn't want to play an fps? RPG or action-combat games not revolving around shooting should still offer competitive pvp that doesn't require a gun.  Problem is so many games haven't executed developing in correctly so it usually does suck.

  • bleedzbleedz sabroPosts: 5Member

    Do tell why you think there is no skill involved with EVE? 

     

    Oh and theme-park PVP with no real consequence is not really that great. Now if you had a risk of say, losing some xp when you died, and level down, then it might be more exciting.

  • itchmonitchmon west islip, NYPosts: 1,714Member Uncommon

    add the word "solo" to the title of your thread and you're a lot closer to the truth.

     

    mmos are not sposed to be esports though.  the beauty of the sandbox games is that your enemy might not be evenly matched.  it makes for social interactions and the epic stories that eve has become famous for.  plus in a sandbox there is no artificial boundary saying you have to fight; you can run and the act of running can be as thrilling as fighting in many cases.

     

    in a sandbox you are fighting in pvp for a reason in-game as opposed as "to win".  in eve our corp fights because others are trying to take territory that my alliance owns and we have fought hard for that territory so we are going to fight.  that kind of fighting is the kind of fighting that makes me care about my character, my corp and the game.

     

    when i used to play wow, i just didnt get arena pvp because you didnt lose anything other than arbitrary points if you lose, and you didnt really gain anything if you win.  meh.  i guess eve and other sandboxes spoiled me.

    RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

    Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

    Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

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    Henry Rollins

  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by bleedz

    Do tell why you think there is no skill involved with EVE? 

     

    Oh and theme-park PVP with no real consequence is not really that great. Now if you had a risk of say, losing some xp when you died, and level down, then it might be more exciting.

    Exactly, or if the pvp has a competitive/balanced arena style with sought after rewards.

    GW1 did an amazing job of this and was one of the better experiences i had with MMO's and pvp

  • ro8terro8ter Phoenix, AZPosts: 23Member

    How can you call Eve a sandbox? There's no sand.

    Now Minecraft has the equivalent of sand.  Second Life has a sand like feature, but Eve?  I don't see it.

     

  • lolunaticlolunatic Mesa, AZPosts: 108Member
    Originally posted by bleedz

    Do tell why you think there is no skill involved with EVE? 

    The movement, lack of things to do in combat (turn on modules,zzzzzzzzz.. did i win?). OFC there are ways to play more actively, but most the time do you really have to? STATS from skillbooks making certain characters from early in the game's lifespan very strong, compared to brand new characters, its a HUGE gap, bigger than probably any game out, the new player will NEVER catch up to a character that as been there from day 1 and been skilling up since.

     

     

  • bleedzbleedz sabroPosts: 5Member
    Originally posted by lolunatic
    Originally posted by bleedz

    Do tell why you think there is no skill involved with EVE? 

    The movement, lack of things to do in combat (turn on modules,zzzzzzzzz.. did i win?). OFC there are ways to play more actively, but most the time do you really have to? STATS from skillbooks making certain characters from early in the game's lifespan very strong, compared to brand new characters, its a HUGE gap, bigger than probably any game out, the new player will NEVER catch up to a character that as been there from day 1 and been skilling up since.

     

     

    Well the amount of micro management that goes on in eve combat is rather mind numbing. Also it would seem that you link skill-based gameplay to how fast the combat is. 

    And about veterans having an advantage over new players. Well it has been explained many times why that's not the case, so i am not going to bother.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,206Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lolunatic
    Originally posted by bleedz

    Do tell why you think there is no skill involved with EVE? 

    The movement, lack of things to do in combat (turn on modules,zzzzzzzzz.. did i win?). OFC there are ways to play more actively, but most the time do you really have to? STATS from skillbooks making certain characters from early in the game's lifespan very strong, compared to brand new characters, its a HUGE gap, bigger than probably any game out, the new player will NEVER catch up to a character that as been there from day 1 and been skilling up since.

     

     

    let's put this claim to the test.

     

    on one side you have 'turn module on zzzz did I win.

    on the other I present this video.

     

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLqb-m1ZZUA

     

    does it sound like 'module on, zzzzz did I win" ?

     

    image

  • HellidolHellidol TACOMA, WAPosts: 405Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lolunatic

    I think themeparks are WORLDS better for legitimate pvp than sandboxes.

     

    Eve for example.

    The game is based around this skill queue where you can just pile on skills and they'll train and you'll get whatever benefits when they are done training. The problem is that you can have any skill you want, no skill cap, so players who having been playing since the game released have a distinct advantage over any players that haven't.  I know  eve doesn't have traditional combat, barely combat at all. But what it comes down to is your ship and the books you've trained. Not actual player skill. And other sandboxes that have come out are similar to that, AoW with inner/ scrolls, DARKFALL with the redic grind(I'm not sure about the new one never played).

    Themeparks to me just seem a whole lot more sportier, instead of the whole "you haven't played for a year so I shit on you instantly" deal. Devs usually work aggressively on the class balance(not counting non triple a mmos), you can't stack to many things on one character for the most part, op items are usually banned from pvp, the list really goes on and on. 

     

    TL;DR: Sandbox = get shit on by people who have played since day 1, or just generally play a lot more than you, then strive to grind endlessly till the day you MIGHT catch up with them.

    themepark = play a little bit, get geared quickly, become competitive then strive to become a better player to beat BETTER players

     

     

    I know i shouldnt respond to this but, you have to be the biggest cry baby i have seen in some time. Real mmos are clearly not for you. Sandbox games can be brutal but that is the game style, if you dont like it that does not mean the game sucks it means you might suck at the game or its just simply not  for you.

    My advise to you, dont play any games that has risk and rewards because its clear you just want no risk and all the rewards....WOW why did i read this.

    image
  • jskeets916jskeets916 Folsom, CAPosts: 154Member
    Originally posted by Hellidol
    Originally posted by lolunatic

    I think themeparks are WORLDS better for legitimate pvp than sandboxes.

     

    Eve for example.

    The game is based around this skill queue where you can just pile on skills and they'll train and you'll get whatever benefits when they are done training. The problem is that you can have any skill you want, no skill cap, so players who having been playing since the game released have a distinct advantage over any players that haven't.  I know  eve doesn't have traditional combat, barely combat at all. But what it comes down to is your ship and the books you've trained. Not actual player skill. And other sandboxes that have come out are similar to that, AoW with inner/ scrolls, DARKFALL with the redic grind(I'm not sure about the new one never played).

    Themeparks to me just seem a whole lot more sportier, instead of the whole "you haven't played for a year so I shit on you instantly" deal. Devs usually work aggressively on the class balance(not counting non triple a mmos), you can't stack to many things on one character for the most part, op items are usually banned from pvp, the list really goes on and on. 

     

    TL;DR: Sandbox = get shit on by people who have played since day 1, or just generally play a lot more than you, then strive to grind endlessly till the day you MIGHT catch up with them.

    themepark = play a little bit, get geared quickly, become competitive then strive to become a better player to beat BETTER players

     

     

    I know i shouldnt respond to this but, you have to be the biggest cry baby i have seen in some time. Real mmos are clearly not for you. Sandbox games can be brutal but that is the game style, if you dont like it that does not mean the game sucks it means you might suck at the game or its just simply not  for you.

    My advise to you, dont play any games that has risk and rewards because its clear you just want no risk and all the rewards....WOW why did i read this.

    A) don't see how the OP is a crybaby, or why "real mmo's" aren't for him.

    B) Not everyone has the lifestyle that caters to a game where "risk" is assessed and determined by how much time you have in grandma's basement to grind out resources.  The assertion your making about a video game and associated risks validating them completely ignores the OP's argument of skill vs amount of time to invest in a video game.

    MMO's have a learning curve but at least eventually there's a cap in which skill is the determining factor, not just time invested.

  • TheHavokTheHavok San Jose, CAPosts: 2,398Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuppa
    They both have their place and fans, but I agree and prefer balance.

    This.

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