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Themepark pvp > Sandbox pvp
lolunatic
Member Posts: 108
I think themeparks are WORLDS better for legitimate pvp than sandboxes.
Eve for example.
The game is based around this skill queue where you can just pile on skills and they'll train and you'll get whatever benefits when they are done training. The problem is that you can have any skill you want, no skill cap, so players who having been playing since the game released have a distinct advantage over any players that haven't. I know eve doesn't have traditional combat, barely combat at all. But what it comes down to is your ship and the books you've trained. Not actual player skill. And other sandboxes that have come out are similar to that, AoW with inner/ scrolls, DARKFALL with the redic grind(I'm not sure about the new one never played).
Themeparks to me just seem a whole lot more sportier, instead of the whole "you haven't played for a year so I shit on you instantly" deal. Devs usually work aggressively on the class balance(not counting non triple a mmos), you can't stack to many things on one character for the most part, op items are usually banned from pvp, the list really goes on and on.
TL;DR: Sandbox = get shit on by people who have played since day 1, or just generally play a lot more than you, then strive to grind endlessly till the day you MIGHT catch up with them.
themepark = play a little bit, get geared quickly, become competitive then strive to become a better player to beat BETTER players
Comments
Can we remove gear/level advantage too and focus purely on skillful competition? Then sign me up!
PVP involving significant non-skill factors is boring. You're either stomped by players who weren't more skilled, or you stomp players easily without effort and there's no fight.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just play pure pvp instanced games like LoL or WoT.
One of the greatest posts I've read on this forum, because it's so true.
Agree 100% i don't agree with any of the counter arguments in this thread either.
Play Lol or Wot? I mean yeah i've played LoL understand its a much better designed esport, however in no way shape or form would i say its fair to ignore modern AAA expectations and tell us to play a game with warcraft 3 graphics for pvp needs.
themepark pvp such as WoW arenas or GW1/GW2 spvp is much more entertaining when balanced/done right than sandbox or mobas.
LoL = click click click, gets old some prefer wasd and mouse
Edit: Open world pvp can also be done correctly in themepark games as well, for those who want something more spontaneous and with different strategy. I still prefer themepark open world pvp with sandbox elements over full blown sandbox for reasons stated, those who play more/started earlier are always advantaged.
Like in a fps ?
mmo pvp is lame.
yeah like in an fps, but what if someone doesn't want to play an fps? RPG or action-combat games not revolving around shooting should still offer competitive pvp that doesn't require a gun. Problem is so many games haven't executed developing in correctly so it usually does suck.
Do tell why you think there is no skill involved with EVE?
Oh and theme-park PVP with no real consequence is not really that great. Now if you had a risk of say, losing some xp when you died, and level down, then it might be more exciting.
add the word "solo" to the title of your thread and you're a lot closer to the truth.
mmos are not sposed to be esports though. the beauty of the sandbox games is that your enemy might not be evenly matched. it makes for social interactions and the epic stories that eve has become famous for. plus in a sandbox there is no artificial boundary saying you have to fight; you can run and the act of running can be as thrilling as fighting in many cases.
in a sandbox you are fighting in pvp for a reason in-game as opposed as "to win". in eve our corp fights because others are trying to take territory that my alliance owns and we have fought hard for that territory so we are going to fight. that kind of fighting is the kind of fighting that makes me care about my character, my corp and the game.
when i used to play wow, i just didnt get arena pvp because you didnt lose anything other than arbitrary points if you lose, and you didnt really gain anything if you win. meh. i guess eve and other sandboxes spoiled me.
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
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Exactly, or if the pvp has a competitive/balanced arena style with sought after rewards.
GW1 did an amazing job of this and was one of the better experiences i had with MMO's and pvp
How can you call Eve a sandbox? There's no sand.
Now Minecraft has the equivalent of sand. Second Life has a sand like feature, but Eve? I don't see it.
The movement, lack of things to do in combat (turn on modules,zzzzzzzzz.. did i win?). OFC there are ways to play more actively, but most the time do you really have to? STATS from skillbooks making certain characters from early in the game's lifespan very strong, compared to brand new characters, its a HUGE gap, bigger than probably any game out, the new player will NEVER catch up to a character that as been there from day 1 and been skilling up since.
Well the amount of micro management that goes on in eve combat is rather mind numbing. Also it would seem that you link skill-based gameplay to how fast the combat is.
And about veterans having an advantage over new players. Well it has been explained many times why that's not the case, so i am not going to bother.
I know i shouldnt respond to this but, you have to be the biggest cry baby i have seen in some time. Real mmos are clearly not for you. Sandbox games can be brutal but that is the game style, if you dont like it that does not mean the game sucks it means you might suck at the game or its just simply not for you.
My advise to you, dont play any games that has risk and rewards because its clear you just want no risk and all the rewards....WOW why did i read this.
A) don't see how the OP is a crybaby, or why "real mmo's" aren't for him.
MMO's have a learning curve but at least eventually there's a cap in which skill is the determining factor, not just time invested.
This.
Well let's not use the term "e-sports", when "great PVP" is more accurate. All e-sports games are great PVP, but not all great PVP games are e-sports. It has to do with how good a game is for spectation, and some games are great PVP but not great for spectating.
With that said, MMOs can make fantastic PVP games. Planetside 1 was one of my favorite PVP games of all time. It almost entirely eliminated non-skill elements and that's what made it great.
Only MMORPGs are fundamentally bad PVP. MMOs are free to be good PVP if designed that way.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I do. (Well not WoT, as the pay2win ammo broke what would otherwise be an incredibly fun and rather unique PVP game.)
Doesn't mean I can't ask for more great MMO PVP experiences like Planetside 1 was. I'd love to play more games designed like that.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Zerg warfare all that is, call a target, focus, listen to vent, follow along. Whoever has the biggest baddest zerg wins. Personally I like smaller arena based pvp, even BATTLEGROUND type pvp is better than zergfest.
I feel like this is built on a rather large amount of mischaracterization.
I find no qualms with 'sandbox' elements in PvP as the balance in such games shouldn't be handled at the 'everyone is equal' level, rather the capacity for asymmetry that plays a role in finding each concept a place means people get comfortable with the form of play they enjoy, assuming that at it's core the game still operates everything on a set of constants.
An example I'd consider exemplary for PvP content that integrates sandbox elements would be the Renegades mod for Tribes.
functionally both sides had all the same stuff, but what they could do with it lead to some wild potentials. It was also honestly the first singularly PvP game where I found myself capable of contributing to the success of the match without having to be a direct or active combatant. I could instead spend my time repairing the facilities, building new bases and warp zones, creating vehicle spawn points, and making sure other players were in shape to keep on chugging.
The game was fundamentally a shooter about flying around capping people with an exploding frisbee gun, yet that mod turned it into a war scenario where victory was obtained by more than just killing an opponent. The basic level of consistency and balance was there, but the choice was vast enough that it meant multiple kinds of people could all enjoy the same game for very different reasons, and in doing so all contribute to the success of their team.
Kinda established in my mind that sandbox elements can go a long way towards making a game more engrossing and entertaining without sacrificing it's stability.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin