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MMOs need to reward you for dying like FPS games

2

Comments

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,923Member Uncommon
    That mentality is what killed skill players. Reward comes from ACCOMPLISHING things, not failing them. The reward for actually doing something/succeeding is vastly better when its not cheapened by stuff like 'oh participation reward' stuff.
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon

    This is only the beginning....

    (Grasp & rubs copy of Everquest)

    image
  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member

    There is already a reward for dying in MMOs: Free and instant travel.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,474Member Uncommon

    Sorry it will make MMORPG's even less challenging is they start to reward you for dying.

    But I am sure many of the new generation of gamers would love OP's suggestion.

    Then again I seem to be a wierd type of gamer, for example I actually downgrade my gear ingame if the challenge isn't challenging enough...Oh keep in mind I am not a PVP playing, occasionally do PVP, but mainly PVE in MMORPG's, but do love PVP in other genre of games like FPS or RTS. Anyway.....if PVE is too easy thankfully I still can make it challenging. If it's a MMORPG I really enjoy then of course I settle for the best. But have noticed that my playstyle doesn't needs it's purple's or Tiered gear. But if I would be intrested in the PVP or Raid part of the game I'll always make sure I got my proper gear at hand incase I need it for Raid/PVP.

    Back to OP: Don't you feel it's much more challenging NOT to die even in CoD

    Myself and CoD or any other FPS or RTS PVP game will take much more "gamers pride" in seeing a high-kill score with a low death-rate, but most likely all that counts for most of the new gen.gamers mightbe it's kill score

  • NovusodNovusod Lakewood, NJPosts: 892Member Uncommon

    A visualization of Eve Online learn curve. The cliff represents losing your ship, permadeath, whatever. Despite Eve being one of the hardest MMORPG it is still the most popular sandbox. Ten year old game that still has 300k+ subs is quite an accomplishment.

     

     

  • VannorVannor YorkshirePosts: 2,968Member Uncommon

    MMOs already do this. In battleground PvP the losing team still get experience and PvP currency. BG PvP is the closest thing to a CoD match in the MMO world.

    You're asking for something that you already have.

    Really though.. you are asking for easy mode. Dumbed down, stripped of tension and really no compelling emotional drive to continue playing. You might think you'll enjoy that sort of thing.. but without a reason or without a challenge you would see just how god awfully mind numbing MMOs really are. The difficulty and dedication required is the only thing they have going for them. Not to mention that without difficulty there is no reason to partner up with other people, communicate or any other avenue that adds to the social aspect of these games.

  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon

    What about do it like singleplayer games do then. Let the player choose the difficulty.

     

    All singleplayer games have various versions of "easy, normal, hard" and some even offer permadeath if you die.

     

    What if the player can choose their own difficulty. Now choosing that in an online game seems complicated, so what about having servers dedicated to the different difficulty levels. Easy servers would be rewarding losing (schools do this like mentioned (and if they didn't I'd have failed highschool....but thats a different topic) and easy servers you can solo most/everything...where as, normal is how most MMOs are now. Hard would be more for the hardcore players, the ones who want to group 100% of the time and have a challenge.

     

    I think this would be a good medium. So, for those who want a very casual, easy experience...they can choose the easy servers. If someone wants a hard experience where it is really tedious and very hard to level or do anything...they can choose that as well. Or somewhere in the middle of "normal" difficulty servers.

    image
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Novusod

    A visualization of Eve Online learn curve. The cliff represents losing your ship, permadeath, whatever. Despite Eve being one of the hardest MMORPG it is still the most popular sandbox. Ten year old game that still has 300k+ subs is quite an accomplishment.

     

     

    Eve is actually very easy. The poor documentation, UI and tutorial makes it hard to learn, but still, very easy.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    ^^ god eve players love showing this slide don't they.  Eve is not difficult to play at all, the only long term issue is that ultimately you play against players who multibox, or have to deal with the dull and annoying 'gate camps' etc etc.  Brilliant game for PVP lovers ofc.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common

    Well wth why not.

    MMOs became very easy over the years and reward you for everything even for not playing (rested exp bonus....) so lets just reward players for dieing on top of that...

    ........

    ........

    ........

    Are you for real?

  • MartinmasMartinmas Austin, TXPosts: 239Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    What about do it like singleplayer games do then. Let the player choose the difficulty.

     

    All singleplayer games have various versions of "easy, normal, hard" and some even offer permadeath if you die.

     

    What if the player can choose their own difficulty. Now choosing that in an online game seems complicated, so what about having servers dedicated to the different difficulty levels. Easy servers would be rewarding losing (schools do this like mentioned (and if they didn't I'd have failed highschool....but thats a different topic) and easy servers you can solo most/everything...where as, normal is how most MMOs are now. Hard would be more for the hardcore players, the ones who want to group 100% of the time and have a challenge.

     

    I think this would be a good medium. So, for those who want a very casual, easy experience...they can choose the easy servers. If someone wants a hard experience where it is really tedious and very hard to level or do anything...they can choose that as well. Or somewhere in the middle of "normal" difficulty servers.

    While I do not agree with offering rewards for failure I do fully agree with this and have even posted this before on beta forums during a few beta tests.

     

    I think if MMOGs would have offered servers that cater to different play-styles the MMO genre would be a better place for everyone now. This way 100% of the game would be enjoyable tor all play-styles instead of just having a fraction of the game being fun for most.

     

    Keep "normal" servers like there are now but also add solo, small group and full group servers. This would be the same as the way PVP and role-play servers are offered up as options.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    First game I came across that did this was wow not a fps.

    People afking their way to pvp greatness in battlegrounds.
    People saying "stop trying, let's loose,quicker we get more tokens that way"

    Etc..

    LEEROYYYYYYYYY

     

    joke aside, I believe the OP used the wrong wording. That's all. I agree with the OP.

    clearly you are forgetting Vanilla WoW. Afking in PvP was a aftermath of the change in the first expansion to the honor system, which wasnt the same in vanilla WoW. So clearly that was an affect of the System, not the death penalty in anyway, since that never changed.

     

    losing and dying are two different things. In WoW when you were rewarded for your lost, you still had a motivation to at least attempt PvP. Otherwise people would simply avoid it when they are on the losing side. Look at WvW for an example of this in effect. 

    But in WoW people would still come back even if losing. This at least rewards the winning side with people to play against, while rewarding the losing side to come back.

    its great game design. Most MMO developers are poor at game design. Simple as that.

    image

  • CorthalaCorthala LagosPosts: 283Member Uncommon
    I still think that Spellborn got it right: Reward you for not staying alive.

    "you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"

    One of those great lines from The Secret World

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    What about do it like singleplayer games do then. Let the player choose the difficulty.

     

    All singleplayer games have various versions of "easy, normal, hard" and some even offer permadeath if you die.

     

    What if the player can choose their own difficulty. Now choosing that in an online game seems complicated, so what about having servers dedicated to the different difficulty levels. Easy servers would be rewarding losing (schools do this like mentioned (and if they didn't I'd have failed highschool....but thats a different topic) and easy servers you can solo most/everything...where as, normal is how most MMOs are now. Hard would be more for the hardcore players, the ones who want to group 100% of the time and have a challenge.

     

    I think this would be a good medium. So, for those who want a very casual, easy experience...they can choose the easy servers. If someone wants a hard experience where it is really tedious and very hard to level or do anything...they can choose that as well. Or somewhere in the middle of "normal" difficulty servers.

    Yes. This already works in online ARPG like D3. There is no reason why this shouldn't work in the instances of MMOs.

     

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member

    I'm gonna go ahead and also say, please keep your crappy FPS's and MMORPG's out of the same sentence.

    As far as rewarding people equally for losing matches? Doesn't work. EVERY MMO has tried it and has ended up having to change the system. The problem is that players come in just for dailies and don't care about winning. You think you get crappy groups with the existing system? It would be ten times worse if they gave you what you wanted. Not only that, look at the AFK pvp groups that Neverwinter had a problem with. There's another issue in being rewarded for losing.

    You think over the last 15 years of MMO's that they haven't messed with these concepts or ideas to ultimately settle on the fairest, player supported system?

  • kragekrage Miami, FLPosts: 419Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    What about do it like singleplayer games do then. Let the player choose the difficulty.

     

    All singleplayer games have various versions of "easy, normal, hard" and some even offer permadeath if you die.

     

    What if the player can choose their own difficulty. Now choosing that in an online game seems complicated, so what about having servers dedicated to the different difficulty levels. Easy servers would be rewarding losing (schools do this like mentioned (and if they didn't I'd have failed highschool....but thats a different topic) and easy servers you can solo most/everything...where as, normal is how most MMOs are now. Hard would be more for the hardcore players, the ones who want to group 100% of the time and have a challenge.

     

    I think this would be a good medium. So, for those who want a very casual, easy experience...they can choose the easy servers. If someone wants a hard experience where it is really tedious and very hard to level or do anything...they can choose that as well. Or somewhere in the middle of "normal" difficulty servers.

    I think it can be done using a difficulty system in the form of death count. You set the difficulty to increase your XP and rewards. As long as the life system is not tied in any way to a cash shop it can work...if not this will definitely be Pay2Win

    Easy = Regular MMO death system, no true penalty other than corpse run and armor repair. Meant for casual play really, and you get base xp gain, and standard loot drops

    Standard = Set amount of lives that can be toggled on and off when out of combat, your counter will rarely increase unless you accomplish fairly epic feats for 1up lol. Your XP and Reward

    Hardcore = You have one life when toggled on, permadeath style, perhaps with a stat boost or durability to give you a more safe chance. Increases your XP rate and reward drops a massive amount, possibly opens up a tier of special and truely legendary gear...like Hardcore only enable quest chains that are challenging.

     

    hmmm now I want to play ^ this game >.< lol I love risk vs reward!

    image
  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member
    Originally posted by krage
    Originally posted by TheScavenger

    What about do it like singleplayer games do then. Let the player choose the difficulty.

     

    All singleplayer games have various versions of "easy, normal, hard" and some even offer permadeath if you die.

     

    What if the player can choose their own difficulty. Now choosing that in an online game seems complicated, so what about having servers dedicated to the different difficulty levels. Easy servers would be rewarding losing (schools do this like mentioned (and if they didn't I'd have failed highschool....but thats a different topic) and easy servers you can solo most/everything...where as, normal is how most MMOs are now. Hard would be more for the hardcore players, the ones who want to group 100% of the time and have a challenge.

     

    I think this would be a good medium. So, for those who want a very casual, easy experience...they can choose the easy servers. If someone wants a hard experience where it is really tedious and very hard to level or do anything...they can choose that as well. Or somewhere in the middle of "normal" difficulty servers.

    I think it can be done using a difficulty system in the form of death count. You set the difficulty to increase your XP and rewards. As long as the life system is not tied in any way to a cash shop it can work...if not this will definitely be Pay2Win

    Easy = Regular MMO death system, no true penalty other than corpse run and armor repair. Meant for casual play really, and you get base xp gain, and standard loot drops

    Standard = Set amount of lives that can be toggled on and off when out of combat, your counter will rarely increase unless you accomplish fairly epic feats for 1up lol. Your XP and Reward

    Hardcore = You have one life when toggled on, permadeath style, perhaps with a stat boost or durability to give you a more safe chance. Increases your XP rate and reward drops a massive amount, possibly opens up a tier of special and truely legendary gear...like Hardcore only enable quest chains that are challenging.

     

    hmmm now I want to play ^ this game >.< lol I love risk vs reward!

    Agree. The problem is the people playing easy will want the same rewards as the people playing hard. You know, because we all deserve the same amount of loot for unequal skill and effort. lol

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • kedarakedara Seattle, WAPosts: 51Member

    I think you are confusing a "completion reward" with a "complementary reward", the MMO genre tends to lean toward an all or nothing reward systems, while still providing some substance for the users who don't win against say, another user in a pvp match.

    However, the current MMOGs that reward experience on a PER HIT basis are far closer to the OPs proposed reward system. Sure your character dies, but you still get points for all the fighting you did before that. The per hit system rewards the effort and still gives a greater reward for successful completion. This would be a more encouraging system for new games to keep players they would otherwise lose.

    To prevent experience spamming, the programmers could introduce a system that limits the experience gained based on the percentage of damage the creature has already endured. If you get it to maybe 90% and walk away, you would have to get the damage higher than 90% to get more points.

  • JorendoJorendo EdePosts: 263Member

    Look Kid i guess you are new to the game scene? You must be when you are one of those who confuses CoD for being an example how games should be. CoD done nothing but destroying the game genre of shooters. The first CoD's where okay, but since Activision decided that greed was more important with Modern warfare 2 it gone to hell with no longer supporting the mod scene in favor for asking 15 dollars per map packs (that is 25% of the initial game cost). CoD isn't a good game, CoD is a terrible money grabber and it only sells well cause it focuses on lame mainstream gamers like yourself. There is nothing wrong with being a mainstream gamer, but there is everything wrong in how your kind of gamer is a decease to the game industry.

     

    10 years ago when you said you where a gamer people called you a nerd. It was something only nerds did and you where a pathetic virgin for it as they nicely called us. Then the Playstation 2 and xbox became rather popular. And when the PS3 and Xbox 360 entered the market suddenly playing games was the cool thing to do. The guys who called me a nerd suddenly where the game experts saying i was a noob for not liking certain games. CoD has made shooters uber simple. I play trough CoD on the hardest difficulty on the hardest mode in 5 hours. From start to finish. Before that normal mode was much harder then the hardmode in COD.

     

    Before your kind of gamer entered the market and became the biggest money source for publishers like EA and Activision, games offered a challenge. No...COD DOES NOT OFFER ANY CHALLENGE IF YOU THINK IT DOES, THEN THAT SAYS ENOUGH ABOUT HOW GREAT YOU ARE AT PLAYING GAMES. EA and Activision have stated that they dumbed down the games in favor of the mainstream gamer. The made them more easy so mainstream gamers could complete the games and feel good about themselves. That you earn points for dying in CoD isn't because CoD is a great game. It's so that people like you feel like they are uber gaming gods with unlocking tons of stuff. You don't need skills, you only need enough points and you get points for everything so in no time you got the good stuff without really working for it. Where real gamers are used to work for stuff. I got stuck in games for days as i kept dying at certain points or did something wrong. I didn't blame the game back then, and this was before the internet so i had to find a way myself. Now games point it out with giant arrows telling you where you have to go too even though there is only one corridor you can walk into anyway.

     

    I ask of you to leave the MMO scene. The MMO scene is nothing for a lamestream gamer like yourself. You have no business here if you think CoD is a prime example how a MMO should be. You are such a spoiled brat, and its thanks to gamers like you that we had to see how MMO's became clones of each other, one even more simple then the other. Dying was something you wanted to avoid cause it brought a penalty. And now you say you want points for dying? How about you stick to CoD and stop going to other genre's and demand that they become more easy cause booohooo its to hard for you, its unfair you get a penatly for dying boohooo you don't feel good enough about yourself. How about you grow some skills and become a real gamers, cause kid, I'm sick and tired of your kind destroying my games. I had to see how tactical shooters turned into a Micheal Bay action shooter just to favor lame gamers like yourself who found it to hard and god forbid you actually invest time in learning HOW TO PLAY.

     

    Really kid, leave the MMO genre. If you can't live with the fact that you get a penalty for dying then you have no business here. Also you say "especially sandbox games". WHAT SANDBOX GAMES? There are hardly any sandbox MMO's these days thanks to lamestream gamers like yourself who rather buy a WoW clone then a MMO that tries to restore the genre as it used to be. If you mean Daggerfall, then you should read the game description better, cause that game is a full open world PvP game with full loot. Meaning it brings great risk and does exactly what a certain group of people want to see in their game.

     

    Also learn this kid. Just because CoD sells great every time again doesn't mean its the best game out there. It means millions of people are stupid enough to pay the full price every year for the same game, and then have to pay alot extra for small map packs where you used to get free maps thanks to the mod community. Off course one can't expect from a lamestream gamer to understand this. The mainstream gamers are the biggest group of "gamers" though we don't call them gamers cause unlike real gamers they don't want a challenge in a game and don't wanna play a game they want the game to hold their hands and give them everything for doing nothing.  But this group sadly is the biggest group and often the only group publishers like EA and Activision care to listen too as they are those people are dumb enough to pay the full price for generic easy to make games. Also CoD never been innovating. So amusing to see what they promote atm for their next CoD game and pretend its revolutionair and never seen before...cause that shows they don't know shizzle about games either:

     

    - Fish now swim away from you when you get to close. <- MARIO 64 ON THE NINTENDO 64 ALREADY HAD THAT AND IT WASN'T TO RESOURCEFUL FOR THE N64 TO PULL IT OFF YET ACITVISION MADE IT SOUND LIKE IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TILL NOW

     

    - Interactive smoke. <- OPERATION FLASHPOINT AND ARMA, GAMES FROM EARLY 2000 ALREADY HAD INTERACTIVE SMOKE, IN FACT THEY ARE SITLL FAR MORE SUPREME IN THAT REGARD THEN COD. HIDDING MEANT REAL HIDDING, THE AI COULDN'T SEE YOU IF YOU HID WELL IN BUSHES. IF YOU TREW A SMOKE GRENADE THEY REALLY DIDN'T SEE WHERE YOU WHERE. AND IT PRESENTED A HUGE OPEN WORLD SO IT WASN'T SCRIPTED AT ALL WHERE EVER YOU HIDE WHERE COD IS SCRIPTED LIKE HELL AND THE AI FOLLOWS A SPECIFIC ROUTINE.

     

    - We got dogs. <- WOLFENSTEIN 3D HAD DOGS SO WHAT? BIG DEAL

     

    No...it is enough. Call me a elitist or what ever. I'm a gamer, and I'm sick and tired seeing kids like you coming to genre's, don't want to invest, want to feel great about themselves, want to brag they are godlike gamers where you kids can't game for shizzle. Return to CoD and for gods sake stay there. Your kind ruined enough games as it is. Learn to play games as they are, or feck off.

  • JorendoJorendo EdePosts: 263Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Also cod is one of the worst fps series ever. I used to love fps, but cod and its various clones leave me cold, they're boring with all their corridors & cutscenes, taking control away from the player, trying to be realistic at the expense of fun etc..

    I'm also not keen on the idea of a bunch of computer nerds playing at being soldiers when real soldiers are currently out there doing it for real, I find it distasteful.

    I find it strange that i actually agree with ShakyMo .. but probably for a different reason. I haven't finished CoD BO2, but finished Dishonored and Bioshock Infinite. I found the later two much more fun.

    I think the issue with CoD is not taking away control (Dishonored & bioshock has some of that too ... like you cannot avoid the empress being killed in Dishonored) .. but that the gameplay in CoD is no longer fun.

    The setting and gameplay in CoD is too realistic. How many ways can you shoot a M16? You have done that 10000 times. And it is all just run-and-gun. Otherwise games will mix it up with new settings, and new mechanics. Like the rail thingie in Bioshock, or the stealth/teleport gameplay in Dishonored.

     

    Euhm there isn't much realistic about CoD. CoD is a action hollywood shooter. Many explosions trowing you from one bang into another. They give a realistic vibe by using real weapons, but the game itself isn't realistic at all. When you get shot you hide behind a wall for three seconds and tadaa you are magically healed.

    ARMA is realistic and is hardly as explosive as in CoD. Bullets got real traction and you need to keep many factors in mind. CoD is a corridor shooter, much like a gun allay at the carnival. The AI is super dumb, i replayed certain parts over and over again just to see if i was right, and i was. The AI always goes the same way, you can predict where they come from, what they will do and where to hide. CoD became less and less fun as it went over the top with everything and took a lot of control out of your hands. Also the game is only 5 hours long and in those 5 hours you spend a lot of time waiting for you to be allowed to finally walk again. Then get a spam of explosions and you enter another cut scene where they want to shock you. It pretty much removed all the story telling as well. Sure there is a story, and its mostly to shock you like gunning down those people at the airport or the kid that gets blown up. Now i don't mind such scenes but to me it must have a purpose in the story. The killing on a russian airfield did not contribute at all to the story. Yeah yeah you where the CIA agent betrayed by the bad guy and it made the russians turn against the Americans blabla....you didn't had me to have to kill a entire airfield full of innocent to do so. You could also have me attack a military base and then betray me. Same result but that wouldn't be openly discussed in the media so less attention with less sales.

     

    Dishonored and BIoshock provide a story. Something you actually play unlike CoD. The story is all around you progress. In CoD its just "Cut scene with story followed by action scene where its just shooting on everything that moves and you get another cut scene that might be related or not related at the mayhem that just occurred or is gonna occur. In Bioshock it lets you get to know the world, you see things happen or hear things that make you connect certain dots.

     

    CoD is a run and gun game, nothing wrong with that but they try to sell it as being a realistic game where its not. You won't survive for 10 seconds in a combat zone if you do the CoD way. I'm from the Netherlands and recently there was docu on tv about our Marines training. Most kids who want to join the marines these days cause of CoD. They actually think that's how the military life is gonna be. And as typical for a CoD gamer they got the wrong mentality. During the docu these CoD gamers found out how hard it is. How you have to work hard to become a marine, but the sad truth is that these days are a minor 6 on the scale of 1- 10 where marines used to have a minimal of a 8 out of 10. Needless to say that most of them didn't make it to become a Marine and glad to it. We don't need Rambo's who think CoD is how a war goes like and should be like.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,693Member Uncommon

    1. COD doesn't reward you for dying, unless I'm mistaken.

    2. Similarly a WOW raid rewards you for exactly as far as you get.  So if you're 3/5 boss progression your guild has earned 3 bosses worth of rewards.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
  • iZakaroNiZakaroN SofiaPosts: 723Member Uncommon
    It will not work. The death punishment  main concept in open pvp games. Otherwise everything outside pvp will become dull and it will just turn in just hack and slash game.



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    Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
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  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Mmo exposed

    No you missunderstood what I was on about.

    This happens in wow (and other games with run battlegrounds for tokens) all the time.

    You start a match.
    5 minutes in you are looking with a very slim chance of winning
    Several players then decide to down tools and afk
    If you yourself continue to pvp, you get time "ffs let them win, we earn more tokens that way"

    It's why I find the ops post do weird, mmos with minigame pvp are already the ultimate in rewarding losers.
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Jorendo
    I know the gun mechanics and what have you aren't realistic in cod.

    But the setting is.

    I thought it was iffy a few years back when we had all these ww2 games, since my grandfathers fought in it.

    I find it beyond distasteful using current conflicts for entertainment in a game when I have friends and sons of friends actually over in afgan.
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