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[Review] Neverwinter: An Astral Diamond in the Rough

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Comments

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SBFord
    Originally posted by Axewielderx
    Originally posted by SBFord
    I wonder how much NW paid to get this OK review. Surprisingly when they gave Scarlet blade a 2, all the ads on this site disappeared. NW's are still up so they must march on whistling a happy tune so they get their paychecks.

    This is such a tiresome argument for a review with which you do not agree. Come take a look at my bank account if you think otherwise.  

    For the record: Social scored a 5 not a 7. 

    Perhaps, but I did note you failed to respond to my response. Guess it is hard to argue with plain FACTS.

    Your personal "facts" as opposed to mine. Each has his/her own opinion. That's what a review is: One person's opinion. 

    Did you know that MMORPG offers a way for players to write their own reviews? Maybe you should try it. ;)

    Funny you mention that because most of us here can barely form a cogent thought in a post let alone an entire article.  Most player reviews I've read come off as juvenile rants with horrid grammar and spelling.  Dark Pony was pretty good though.  I miss his blog entries (plus they always had nifty pictures - I like pictures image).

  • TheMaahesTheMaahes Marlborough, MAPosts: 185Member

    To be quite honest, that review was too generous. You were right in saying this game is a stepping stone through the MMORPG space, but I wouldn't build hope by calling it a diamond in the rough. Very few people will be coming back to this game as more games begin to release in the hybrid-F2P market (or just in general).

     

    I invested the time I did in Neverwinter because of two big things: It's free and The Foundry. As a hybrid-F2P game, it's attractive as a stepping stone but not a main game. Many games are either already out or are arriving soon that do many things far better. It's biggest calling card, The Foundry, is great but the excitement wears off quick when you realize you are constricted to creating the same old fashion MMORPG content that you have seen for years. The tools don't allow for anything truly dynamic, a sad thing really and necessary in some cases nowadays.

     

    If they really want to push this game to the next level they should start rapidly creating new and different tools for their "mod" community.  They also need to start capitalizing on the IP they have. These walled-in zones are far too constrictive for such a great setting. Helm's Hold and the Neverwinter Graveyard (two zones I was excited to see) disappointed me greatly.

  • furbansfurbans Tinbucktwo, IAPosts: 965Member

    Originally posted by Grakulen



    Originally posted by SBFord




     

    Your personal "facts" as opposed to mine. Each has his/her own opinion. That's what a review is: One person's opinion. 

    Did you know that MMORPG offers a way for players to write their own reviews? Maybe you should try it. ;)

    This link allows users to create their own reviews of the game. I highly encourage it. The more we can aggregate a score the better off we will all be.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/settings.cfm?subaction=myFeatures




     

    Does that allow a scoring like how Amazon or numerous places where one can rate a product on a 5 star scale?  Seems like you have to write a review.  Having an actual review scoring system that users can utilize would be nice to have here like how metacritic works.  Granted it will likely be abused as one can create multiple accounts but still an added feature would be nice.

  • AxewielderxAxewielderx Needville, TXPosts: 96Member
    Originally posted by SBFord
    Originally posted by Axewielderx
    Originally posted by SBFord
    I wonder how much NW paid to get this OK review. Surprisingly when they gave Scarlet blade a 2, all the ads on this site disappeared. NW's are still up so they must march on whistling a happy tune so they get their paychecks.

    This is such a tiresome argument for a review with which you do not agree. Come take a look at my bank account if you think otherwise.  

    For the record: Social scored a 5 not a 7. 

     

     

    Perhaps, but I did note you failed to respond to my response. Guess it is hard to argue with plain FACTS.

    Your personal "facts" as opposed to mine. Each has his/her own opinion. That's what a review is: One person's opinion. 

    Did you know that MMORPG offers a way for players to write their own reviews? Maybe you should try it. ;)

     

    I have my own blog and do not have to worry about anyone editing or deleting my posts. TY.  Umm, the fact they took people's money and those same people lost ad in the auction house is well documented. They have also failed to contact many people who filled out support tickets regarding the matter.It is well documented on their forums. This is not an opinion, it is an actual fact. When someone takes my money and fails to give me a response, that is a fact, not an opinion.

    Maybe someday, if I actually decide I want to waste my time on it, I will do a review of game websites, instead of games. I am betting there might be an audience for that.

    If we fail to change the things of today, they will become the lucid nighmares of tommorrow.

  • DeathWolf2uDeathWolf2u Maryville, ILPosts: 291Member

    Review is spot on, good job.

    Have a level 60 Guardian, (most under powered character in the game btw) which only took me a week to do when open beta started. I leveled my pet Phoeba to 30 now I just can't find a reason to keep logging in to do daily foundry or dungeon quest. Crafting is beyond ignorant as well. Now I'm just bored with Neverwinter which the review hits on the nail.

    I moved on to a different mmo now

  • ArskaaaArskaaa KauhajokiPosts: 841Member Uncommon

    Combat is much more fun then in WoW. 

    But biggest fail is PAY TO WIN:/

    Find epic trasure chest? guess what? u need buy key><

  • IllyssiaIllyssia LondonPosts: 1,524Member
    I think Neverwinter is a 6 or 7 kinda game at the moment. That isn't bad, but it isn't really what mmorpg players are looking for right now. FF XIV ARR and TESO look like the ones to wait for. That's been my call on this for a while now, and I think I may be right :-)
  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    Originally posted by kakasaki

    Originally posted by JediSeer




    "Trickster Rogues can sneak around behind and pick off the strongest monster."

    So, you're one of those are you?! I see you far too often when I play! If you are playing a rogue this way, then you are doing it wrong!

    Sadly, you are one of my pet peeves...and I repeat, this is certainly NOT the proper way to play a rogue!

    People that play rogues, please understand, your job is NOT to go beating on the strongest monsters, bosses, or champions until after you've taken care of the squishies. Squishies or soft targets like casters, healers and trash mobs are your number one priority!

    Your job is NOT to go and tackle the toughest mob that the tank is trying to keep occupied while there are still adds running round (most likely harassing the clerics)!

    If you play your rogue this way, then I would imagine you may also be the same player that often complains that you're not getting healed properly. This is because the clerics are too busy trying to get the adds off of them, while you are incorrectly trying to attack the tank's target and allowing those mobs to preoccupy your clerics and control wizards.

    Let the tank hold the bosses aggro, while the healer heals and wizard controls and take out the squishies/adds. You'll be amazed as to how much easier the party manages itself!

    Most players believe it is the healers that are the difference between a great party and a bad one; I'd argue that the rogue is the key to a successful party, not the healers. A rogue that knows how to properly do its job makes all the difference!

    ---

    Aside from that, great article and I agree with everything you said, particularly the overpriced Zen items. This absurd mentality of overpricing things and the negative effect it has is unfortunately something so many companies fail to see! It's the reason why Amazon and Walmart are two of the richest companies in the world as cheaper prices mean more customers and more frequent purchases, which in turn equals bigger growth and more sustainable profit.






     

    I was going to go full "who are you to tell people how to play" and "it's your opinion" but, honestly, you are 100% correct in your points. "Those" rogues bother the hell out of me too (I play a healer most of the time).

    Actually you are both wrong. Rogues are meant to attack the bosses / strongest mobs. Wizards and GWFs are meant to pick off the weak AE adds.

  • Sal1Sal1 Twin Cities, MNPosts: 181Member Uncommon
    Excellent review Ms. Ford. I played the Closed Beta #2 and I have been playing the Open Beta since the launch. You echo my opinions about this game.
  • stalker989stalker989 League City, TXPosts: 30Member

    I have played the game since the opening (beta supposedly) to the general public. I am an F2P player, so the cost is a 10 in my book. The game overall is relatively fun to play, but becomes easily frustrating with the myriad of problems that come with something that is free.

    I am not a huge PvP person, but I like the system in NW. My praise ends there. There is no filter to the system to balance the teams in any way, shape or form. One 5 member team can have all the same class, where the opposing team could get a well balanced group. Matches start regardless if botters or afkers get kicked from the team (could end up being a 3 v 5 match). The PvP score alone, I would rate a 2.

    Overall, I would say the review is well done, but I think the score is overstated by 1 - 1.5.  Craptic really dropped the ball on this, and no rollback will ever replace the damage done to the in game economy from the Auction House exploits (unless is was rolled back to the initial public release) or wiped and start over. (It doesn't take long to level up in this game - you could get a max level character in about 2 weeks of casual play).

    My final rating for the game is 5.5 - 6

    image
  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by rodingo

    I would say it's a fair score of the game, considering it's still in "beta".  I know, I know.   I think in time Cryptic will eventually make some good improvements to the game like in STO, and if you look at the low points in the review you can see it's very doable.  I think the Neverwinter we see now will be greatly improved in 6 months or so.  The good thing?  You don't have to keep a sub current to check in on the game every now and again.

     It is NOT beta! No matter how PWE and Cryptic try to say this and keep jumping up and Down! It is NOT!

    The moment you start taking people's Money, Your game is LIVE! PERIOD!

    If it was a REAL Open Beta, then there would be a Complete wipe just before launch!

    But alas... this is just standard practice With F2P games, by saying it's open beta (and most stay in this phase indefinitely) so they can get away With everything and hide behind the beta excuse!

    And Cryptic is already doing this With all the glaring exploits like the Auction House one. Just wipe it under the rug, keep saying it's Beta and toss People a couple useless items to Close their mouths and pretend it never happened.

    If it was a REAL Open Beta, they would have not taken people's Money yet With the Cash Shop and been able to do a Complete wipe and so properly fixing the glaring exploits and reset the game economy.

    The game would have been a hell lot better off With a Bright future Ahead. Tho, they would have to significantly lower some of the cash shop prices too.

    But now they pretty much shot themselves in the foot With all the glaring exploits and not able to properly fix it and restore the economy.

    All they could do know, was just plug the hole and move on, leaving a trainwreck of an economy in it's Wake.

    I Count the 60 bucks of the Guardian Pack as a loss and moved on. Will never touch a PWE/Cryptic game ever again. That's for sure!

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Originally posted by rodingo

    I would say it's a fair score of the game, considering it's still in "beta".  I know, I know.   I think in time Cryptic will eventually make some good improvements to the game like in STO, and if you look at the low points in the review you can see it's very doable.  I think the Neverwinter we see now will be greatly improved in 6 months or so.  The good thing?  You don't have to keep a sub current to check in on the game every now and again.

     It is NOT beta! No matter how PWE and Cryptic try to say this and keep jumping up and Down! It is NOT!

    The moment you start taking people's Money, Your game is LIVE! PERIOD!

    Because you say so?  I say it's in beta.  There, I win until you post, "no it's not".  Neither one of us get to decide that.  You can decide not to participate, but you don't get to decide what the state of the software is in or what it's called.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Illyssia
    I think Neverwinter is a 6 or 7 kinda game at the moment. That isn't bad, but it isn't really what mmorpg players are looking for right now. FF XIV ARR and TESO look like the ones to wait for. That's been my call on this for a while now, and I think I may be right :-)

    Why would FFXIV be the game mmo players are looking for compared to other games.  How can you even say either one is what players are looking for since we don't really know how they'll play once they're live.

    Just wait until this time next year, after both games launch to mediocre success, and someone will say the same thing about them when they get their 7 and 8 star reviews.  Someone will make nearly exactly your post only it will say:  I think FFXIV / ESO is a 6 or 7 kinda game at the moment due to reasons "X, Y, and Z".  What mmo players are really looking forward to is Game X and Game Y.  They are the ones to wait for.

    This gets repeated season after season, year after year.

  • JeroKaneJeroKane OsloPosts: 5,353Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Originally posted by rodingo

    I would say it's a fair score of the game, considering it's still in "beta".  I know, I know.   I think in time Cryptic will eventually make some good improvements to the game like in STO, and if you look at the low points in the review you can see it's very doable.  I think the Neverwinter we see now will be greatly improved in 6 months or so.  The good thing?  You don't have to keep a sub current to check in on the game every now and again.

     It is NOT beta! No matter how PWE and Cryptic try to say this and keep jumping up and Down! It is NOT!

    The moment you start taking people's Money, Your game is LIVE! PERIOD!

    Because you say so?  I say it's in beta.  There, I win until you post, "no it's not".  Neither one of us get to decide that.  You can decide not to participate, but you don't get to decide what the state of the software is in or what it's called.

     Because I work in the IT myself for over 14 years. Been playing games since a kid (so for over 25 years now).

    When a software Product is in Beta you don't ask Money from Your customers nor take it, until the Product is actually ready for release!

    This Whole Open Beta farce is just standard practice With a lot of craptastic F2P Companies and like I said... most of them keep their F2P games in Open Beta indefinitely until it's shut Down.

    The only reason they do this, is to cover their arses and able to get away with everything, hiding behind the beta excuse. Pure and simple!

    All decent Game studios who do a "proper" Open Beta actually use it as a beta to improve the game (usually it's only stress testing in this phase), don't charge Money nor take it via a cash shop. Release a final patch before release and wipe all the servers clean and then Proper launch the game With a clean slate.

    But hey.... indeed who I am I right..... I Guess when Cryptic tells you to jump, you jump. Good Luck.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Originally posted by rodingo

    I would say it's a fair score of the game, considering it's still in "beta".  I know, I know.   I think in time Cryptic will eventually make some good improvements to the game like in STO, and if you look at the low points in the review you can see it's very doable.  I think the Neverwinter we see now will be greatly improved in 6 months or so.  The good thing?  You don't have to keep a sub current to check in on the game every now and again.

     It is NOT beta! No matter how PWE and Cryptic try to say this and keep jumping up and Down! It is NOT!

    The moment you start taking people's Money, Your game is LIVE! PERIOD!

    Because you say so?  I say it's in beta.  There, I win until you post, "no it's not".  Neither one of us get to decide that.  You can decide not to participate, but you don't get to decide what the state of the software is in or what it's called.

     Because I work in the IT myself for over 14 years. Been playing games since a kid (so for over 25 years now).

    When a software Product is in Beta you don't ask Money from Your customers nor take it, until the Product is actually ready for release!

    This Whole Open Beta farce is just standard practice With a lot of craptastic F2P Companies and like I said... most of them keep their F2P games in Open Beta indefinitely until it's shut Down.

    The only reason they do this, is to cover their arses and able to get away with everything, hiding behind the beta excuse. Pure and simple!

    All decent Game studios who do a "proper" Open Beta actually use it as a beta to improve the game (usually it's only stress testing in this phase), don't charge Money nor take it via a cash shop. Release a final patch before release and wipe all the servers clean and then Proper launch the game With a clean slate.

    But hey.... indeed who I am I right..... I Guess when Cryptic tells you to jump, you jump. Good Luck.

    I don't often agree with JeroKane but when  I do it's about "Open Beta"

    Stay Thirsty my friends!

    Ok but seriously by some people's and F2P company's definition of Open beta every video game ever made is still in open beta and nothing has ever launched.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JeroKane
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Originally posted by rodingo

    I would say it's a fair score of the game, considering it's still in "beta".  I know, I know.   I think in time Cryptic will eventually make some good improvements to the game like in STO, and if you look at the low points in the review you can see it's very doable.  I think the Neverwinter we see now will be greatly improved in 6 months or so.  The good thing?  You don't have to keep a sub current to check in on the game every now and again.

     It is NOT beta! No matter how PWE and Cryptic try to say this and keep jumping up and Down! It is NOT!

    The moment you start taking people's Money, Your game is LIVE! PERIOD!

    Because you say so?  I say it's in beta.  There, I win until you post, "no it's not".  Neither one of us get to decide that.  You can decide not to participate, but you don't get to decide what the state of the software is in or what it's called.

     Because I work in the IT myself for over 14 years. Been playing games since a kid (so for over 25 years now).

    When a software Product is in Beta you don't ask Money from Your customers nor take it, until the Product is actually ready for release!

    This Whole Open Beta farce is just standard practice With a lot of craptastic F2P Companies and like I said... most of them keep their F2P games in Open Beta indefinitely until it's shut Down.

    The only reason they do this, is to cover their arses and able to get away with everything, hiding behind the beta excuse. Pure and simple!

    All decent Game studios who do a "proper" Open Beta actually use it as a beta to improve the game (usually it's only stress testing in this phase), don't charge Money nor take it via a cash shop. Release a final patch before release and wipe all the servers clean and then Proper launch the game With a clean slate.

    But hey.... indeed who I am I right..... I Guess when Cryptic tells you to jump, you jump. Good Luck.

    If I've worked in IT longer than you, does my appeal to authority mean more than your authority fallacy?  If you're really an IT authority then you should know that enterprise companies often require customers to have a purchased product in order to participate in alpha, beta, and pre-release software programs.  If your experience in IT meant something then you would present an argument that said more than "because I said so."

    You can treat software as "not a beta" but that doesn't change its status.  Gmail was in beta for years yet Google happily monetized that both directly and indirectly.  Sometimes you can use beta versions of software if you purchase a current retail key for that software and that doesn't change the beta status of that software.

    You're choosing to participate in a beta software program.  That doesn't give you the right to decide what it is for everyone else.  You have the right not to participate and the right to criticize the practice.

    I don't think they should have presented their game in this manner either.  I think they should have had a two or three week open beta where people could spend fake Zen, have an AD stipend, put the game through its paces, and then wipe at the end.  But it's not my game and my test to do so.  I'm still playing because I'm willing to put up with the bullshit.

  • Beoelf21Beoelf21 Atascocita, TXPosts: 91Member

    i agree with almost everything but..

    More character classes added at a rapid, not sluggish, pace?

    what game out there releases new classes all the time? Things like classes are meant to have longer time frames behind them. Classes are meant to be perfected over time. this isnt league of legends or Smite where you bust out a new hero everyweek. for someone who writes MMO reviews ,what were you thinking putting this in there? why water down working archetypes? The game can handle some more classes don't get me wrong ,but asking for new classes to come out all the time on a fast pace is ridiculous. 

     

    image
  • GrakulenGrakulen Staff Writer St. Charles, MOPosts: 460MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon



    Originally posted by furbans








    Originally posted by Grakulen




















    Originally posted by SBFord




























     












    Your personal "facts" as opposed to mine. Each has his/her own opinion. That's what a review is: One person's opinion. 













    Did you know that MMORPG offers a way for players to write their own reviews? Maybe you should try it. ;)













    This link allows users to create their own reviews of the game. I highly encourage it. The more we can aggregate a score the better off we will all be.













    http://www.mmorpg.com/settings.cfm?subaction=myFeatures






















     





    Does that allow a scoring like how Amazon or numerous places where one can rate a product on a 5 star scale?  Seems like you have to write a review.  Having an actual review scoring system that users can utilize would be nice to have here like how metacritic works.  Granted it will likely be abused as one can create multiple accounts but still an added feature would be nice.

    You can assign a score to the review and add pros and cons like the regular reviews. I wouldn't say it is as good as Amazon's but it is a nice feature to have.



     

  • TalonsinTalonsin Posts: 1,468Member Uncommon

    I pretty much agree with review but i might have scored it a bit lower.  The customization which has always been a Cryptic strong point is way weak in this game.  I have a cleric at level 26 that looks exactly the same as she did at level 4.  It just doesn't feel like she is progressing or getting any better, she does more damage but fights higher hit-point mobs so it is hard to see any actual progression or get a sense of growth from my character.

    The economy is a bit out of whack already and so few people put a buyout on their items in the AH.  The AH also lacks a great bit of functionality which is surprising since this was a huge criticism of Cryptics last game which they later addressed a bit.

    Overall I do think the prices of items are hurting this game the most.  $10 for a bag and $6 for 12 or 14 bank slots is a bit much. 

  • Crazy00EyesCrazy00Eyes Truckee, CAPosts: 91Member
    Why the !@#$ are you reviewing a game that is still in beta testing??

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Played: Clan Lord, WoW, Matrix Online, LOTR:O, EVE, Tabula Rasa, Warhammer Online, Rift
    Playing: Starcraft 2, Battlefield 3

  • gunmanvladgunmanvlad BucharestPosts: 249Member Uncommon

    What I find incredibly weird about the game is the sheer amount of rich people playing it. I mean, seriously, if you play 2-3 hours of end-game content, you make enough money to buy 20-50 dollars worth of Zen...

     

    So some people value their time at more than 20$/hour...I'd call that a hefty price for entertainment. Which means you can play 2-3 hours of great fun content (non-grinding) and get the most expensive item in the cash shop (epic mount). If I log into GW2 and try to farm the gold needed to buy the most expensive cash-shop item (which will also be fluff mainly), I'll need to spend around 10 hours of painful grind...

     

    So...yeah...bottom line, outrageously overpriced Zen shop? Yes!!! 

    Do players care? Apparently no...lucky devs...

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,608Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodingo
    I would say it's a fair score of the game, considering it's still in "beta".  I know, I know.   I think in time Cryptic will eventually make some good improvements to the game like in STO, and if you look at the low points in the review you can see it's very doable.  I think the Neverwinter we see now will be greatly improved in 6 months or so.  The good thing?  You don't have to keep a sub current to check in on the game every now and again.

    You might be right about it improving but it may be moot. First impressions are very important for MMOs and the all-important, social, word-of-mouth hype. Games that fumble this typically have a very hard time reaching their potential no matter how much they improve with age. E.g. Conan.

    Once upon a time, when the choices were limited and new MMOs were released once every few years instead of several every year as is the case now, they had some wiggle room. Not any more.

    By the time they fix the glaring economic problems with Zen and ADs, most people will be either playing or heavily anticipating one or more of Wildstar, Elder Scrolls Online or Everquest Next.

    Whatever they need to do, they need to do it now. In 6 months it'll be too late.

    And please, will you guys knock it off with the "beta" bit? This is a release complete with open cash shop that is called "beta" only as PR spin to excuse problems and missing elements. And this little game of misdirection they're playing is enough for me to take off yet another point. I'd give it a 6 for dishonesty even though I agree with Suzie's review.

     

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,734Member Uncommon
    Was not impressed with this game one iota.....Im a big fan of the D&D games of the past but this one just doesnt cut it......Too much instancing and feels too much like DDO.....Once again another MMO that cannot give us a world to explore and tries to hard to entertain us.
  • BurntvetBurntvet Baltimore, MDPosts: 2,937Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Crazy00Eyes

    Why the !@#$ are you reviewing a game that is still in beta testing??

     

    As others have said: Taking people's cash / running a cash shop + No Wipe = game is live. So, the game is live, no matter what anyone wants to say or whatever hairs people want to split.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodingo
    I would say it's a fair score of the game, considering it's still in "beta".  I know, I know.   I think in time Cryptic will eventually make some good improvements to the game like in STO, and if you look at the low points in the review you can see it's very doable.  I think the Neverwinter we see now will be greatly improved in 6 months or so.  The good thing?  You don't have to keep a sub current to check in on the game every now and again.

    You might be right about it improving but it may be moot. First impressions are very important for MMOs and the all-important, social, word-of-mouth hype. Games that fumble this typically have a very hard time reaching their potential no matter how much they improve with age. E.g. Conan.

    Once upon a time, when the choices were limited and new MMOs were released once every few years instead of several every year as is the case now, they had some wiggle room. Not any more.

    By the time they fix the glaring economic problems with Zen and ADs, most people will be either playing or heavily anticipating one or more of Wildstar, Elder Scrolls Online or Everquest Next.

    Whatever they need to do, they need to do it now. In 6 months it'll be too late.

    And please, will you guys knock it off with the "beta" bit? This is a release complete with open cash shop that is called "beta" only as PR spin to excuse problems and missing elements. And this little game of misdirection they're playing is enough for me to take off yet another point. I'd give it a 6 for dishonesty even though I agree with Suzie's review.

    Will you please knock it off with the "it's not a beta because I said so" bit?  Do you see how ridiculous it sounds when you self-proclaim something like that when it's not your project?

    It might be stupid to use that label and it might be unscrupulous, but again, you don't decide that do you?  If you have any power to make it "not a beta" then go change the website.  I'm waiting.

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