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These "MMOs"

GorweGorwe ZagrebPosts: 2,472Member Uncommon

Are just pathetic. I simply can't play them for more than a hour. Rift reminded me(although a Great game, no doubt, it still is an MMO) what it is that I hate so much about MMOs.

-Pathetic excuse for a story told from almost inconsequential perspective. What is keeping me here? The things to do at max level? That's laughable! That's like restricting Skyrim's Main story to level 30+ characters. Lol what? I mean the story in Rift, in WoW and in many other MMOs would have been at least 150% better if they didn't tell it through god damn quests! While we are at it...

-Quest hubs and quests overall. I am sick of quest hubs. I just want to go around and stumble upon the quest. Also, the fact that the most quests are "Kill 10 of X" doesn't exactly help. MMO designers sure do need to work on their quest variety. Wait no. Just make them fun and believable, instead of "We will make a potion. I will prepare the ingredients and you go kill 8 of X to bring me the ingredients that I am missing". What's wrong with all the bloodshed???

-Respawning mobs. When the respawn time is too short, I don't feel any impact on the world and that in turn just kills the game for me. Can't you have fewer mobs that are more deadly in turn? And they respawn every...5 minutes let's say? Or even better, use large instances. I never quite figured what is so wrong with instances and phases.

-All the fun at the endgame. This one is so lame that it doesn't deserve a paragraph lol. Can't the whole game be, you know, fun instead of a major time sink(and yes, I do realise that's the whole purpose of games-but they need to be FUN timesinks instead of boring, boring MMO timesinks)? Meh...

I think that I listed enough points. You get what I am talking about.

I swear it, the only MMO-like game that I can play is TSW. But then again, it should've been a singleplayer game. Rift's awesome and I REALLY love some souls, though it kinda does bore you fast with all the quest chains and hub hopping and yeah. Purifier made me realise the sheer width of Warhammer(who says that you can't use Aqshy to Heal and burn away impurities?). Any advice with that would be welcome.

So, what am I to do? Play singleplayers/other genres? Do sth else? And when we're at it, am I really the only one that feels massively disappointment by MMOs?

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Comments

  • c0existc0exist Round Rock, TXPosts: 192Member
    There is nothing wrong with the way you feel, MMO's are not for everyone.  Just like FPS, sports and adventure games arent for everyone.  You are a single player gamer and there is nothing wrong with that.  No disrespect but I wish all single player gamers would realize what you so cleverly did that this genre is not for you.  Just like racing ( Need  for speed ) and fighting games like MK are not for me.  Taking the single player element out of these games would bring them to what they once were; epic, lasting and memorable.  You see grinding and crafting as a timesink, but true mmo gamers dont see it that way.  Its all about building your character, it shouldnt take overnight. 
  • GorweGorwe ZagrebPosts: 2,472Member Uncommon
    But, is that really it? I mean I see them as sort of evolution of singleplayer RPGs. Of course, some nonsense would have to be trimmed down in order for them to earn that title, but still...

    And that's what I dislike about most of today's MMOs and why I don't call them how I should(mmorpg). That's because they are MMO super heavy(sort of Like how Baneblade is a super heavy tank) and RPG very lite(to the point that the players need to invent happenings in their RP in order to truly experience/understand things). In reality they should be equally both an MMO and an RPG.

    The moment that the RPG heavier MMO comes out, I am all over it(as long as it is actually fun and not a cutshow like Tor is). Maybe I just don't like blatant nonsense? Maybe that's why I fondly remember GW 1(twas the first in MMOs to focus the story in PvE, right?) and why I love TSW and hell, why I loved WAR(Warhammer ftw! They actually had one awesome PvE, but it got the PvP game title{some time after the launch} and yeah...:( ). Some of the quests in WAR were written by de facto writters of the Black Library! Who was it? Completely forgot.

    Anyhow... That's all from me for now. Take care!
  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,641Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    So, what am I to do? Play singleplayers/other genres? Do sth else? And when we're at it, am I really the only one that feels massively disappointment by MMOs?

     

    I have found myself drifting further and further away from these games. These days I mostly play single player or table top PnP games (or using the Roll20 virtual tabletop).

    But to answer your last general question, yeah.

  • elockeelocke Manassas, VAPosts: 4,205Member Uncommon

    Personally, I don't mind quest hubs and questing at all as long as their are more than one leveling path to do it, much like WoW has.  That being said, these games these days all lack an extremely large amount of unique systems to help with immersion and fun factor from level 1 to forever.  My favorite MMO in that respect is FFXI.  It just has every thing I ever wanted in an MMO except for modern movement/combat/UI.  Give it those 3 things new and improved and I would never leave, something I think many of us were hoping for with FFXIV but never got. 

    That being said, I would love games like WoW, SWTOR etc. who all have fairly fun combat/control systems to add tons of extra systems to their games and actually make their game worlds living worlds.  Things like epic story arcs similar to the Missions in FFXI, or the weather system in FFXI that affected combat and mob strength.  Or the mysterious side of the crafting in that game where facing a certain direction, depending on the day of the ingame week would make your result weaker or stronger.  There are more examples from FFXI alone, but to mention them all would take all day.

    But that's what I miss from current MMOs.  Basically heapings of sandbox elements on top of the themeparks.  Hybrids.  Hoping ArcheAge is the start of a trend in that direction and a good one at that.

    image
  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    Are just pathetic. I simply can't play them for more than a hour. Rift reminded me(although a Great game, no doubt, it still is an MMO) what it is that I hate so much about MMOs.

    -Pathetic excuse for a story told from almost inconsequential perspective. What is keeping me here? The things to do at max level? That's laughable! That's like restricting Skyrim's Main story to level 30+ characters. Lol what? I mean the story in Rift, in WoW and in many other MMOs would have been at least 150% better if they didn't tell it through god damn quests! While we are at it...

    -Quest hubs and quests overall. I am sick of quest hubs. I just want to go around and stumble upon the quest. Also, the fact that the most quests are "Kill 10 of X" doesn't exactly help. MMO designers sure do need to work on their quest variety. Wait no. Just make them fun and believable, instead of "We will make a potion. I will prepare the ingredients and you go kill 8 of X to bring me the ingredients that I am missing". What's wrong with all the bloodshed???

    -Respawning mobs. When the respawn time is too short, I don't feel any impact on the world and that in turn just kills the game for me. Can't you have fewer mobs that are more deadly in turn? And they respawn every...5 minutes let's say? Or even better, use large instances. I never quite figured what is so wrong with instances and phases.

    -All the fun at the endgame. This one is so lame that it doesn't deserve a paragraph lol. Can't the whole game be, you know, fun instead of a major time sink(and yes, I do realise that's the whole purpose of games-but they need to be FUN timesinks instead of boring, boring MMO timesinks)? Meh...

    I think that I listed enough points. You get what I am talking about.

    I swear it, the only MMO-like game that I can play is TSW. But then again, it should've been a singleplayer game. Rift's awesome and I REALLY love some souls, though it kinda does bore you fast with all the quest chains and hub hopping and yeah. Purifier made me realise the sheer width of Warhammer(who says that you can't use Aqshy to Heal and burn away impurities?). Any advice with that would be welcome.

    So, what am I to do? Play singleplayers/other genres? Do sth else? And when we're at it, am I really the only one that feels massively disappointment by MMOs?

    Good points  and reason why im also not playing any mmo, but playing solo games or other genres.

    I think will be stuck with solo or semi multi(co-op) from time to time and some fps games im for now done with mmo's also sick and tired of all the points you made in your topic.

    Im withyou so MASSIVELY DISSAPOINTED:(

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member
    Originally posted by c0exist
    There is nothing wrong with the way you feel, MMO's are not for everyone.  Just like FPS, sports and adventure games arent for everyone.  You are a single player gamer and there is nothing wrong with that.  No disrespect but I wish all single player gamers would realize what you so cleverly did that this genre is not for you.  Just like racing ( Need  for speed ) and fighting games like MK are not for me.  Taking the single player element out of these games would bring them to what they once were; epic, lasting and memorable.  You see grinding and crafting as a timesink, but true mmo gamers dont see it that way.  Its all about building your character, it shouldnt take overnight. 

    I play sinds 1999 mmo's and i know it will never be as my first mmo or even second one, but the mmo's seriously have changed so much there pethatic to me so i play solo games.

     

    This means your dead wrong assuming where not right for mmo's there just to lame and simple to even enjoy them anymore.

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member

    But i don't care anymore eather there so many good games still out there specially singleplayer games(skyrim and soon the witcher 3) hack and slash(PoE-Van Helsing) and fps(dishonered-bioshock:infinity)

    Closed to mmo soon standalone DayZ if its as good as mod i will have blast with that one.

    Plenty to play to last a couple of years.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    So, what am I to do?

    Do you have any real options, once you've conceded?

    So...we could modify our hyperbole, or we could seek entertainment elsewhere.

    Is there an option C that I missed?

    Oh, right; the Mrs. Grundy option. Join in the never-ending recitation of despair. Doom.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • botrytisbotrytis In Flux, MIPosts: 2,567Member
    Originally posted by GroovyFlower
    Originally posted by c0exist
    There is nothing wrong with the way you feel, MMO's are not for everyone.  Just like FPS, sports and adventure games arent for everyone.  You are a single player gamer and there is nothing wrong with that.  No disrespect but I wish all single player gamers would realize what you so cleverly did that this genre is not for you.  Just like racing ( Need  for speed ) and fighting games like MK are not for me.  Taking the single player element out of these games would bring them to what they once were; epic, lasting and memorable.  You see grinding and crafting as a timesink, but true mmo gamers dont see it that way.  Its all about building your character, it shouldnt take overnight. 

    I play sinds 1999 mmo's and i know it will never be as my first mmo or even second one, but the mmo's seriously have changed so much there pethatic to me so i play solo games.

     

    This means your dead wrong assuming where not right for mmo's there just to lame and simple to even enjoy them anymore.

    I agree with c0exist.  Groovyflower, I have been playing as long or longer than you, so what? Does that make you or I an expert? It does not. You are jaded based on your first MMO and judging things. Emotions are a wonderful thing but they make you look at things with rose-coloured glasses.

    image

    "In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
    by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by botrytis

    Emotions are a wonderful thing but they make you look at things with rose-coloured glasses.

    Or (quite often the case) glasses of pitch black.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • HothloveHothlove RibePosts: 87Member
    Play WoW it's still funny as hell. I mean grimtotem, hellscream and windrunner when will it ever get old?
  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,797Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    What is keeping me here?

    I think that is the key question of your whole post and not one someone else can answer.  If MMO's are not for you than you really should find something more enjoyable to spend your time doing.

  • GorweGorwe ZagrebPosts: 2,472Member Uncommon
    Maybe this is important?

    I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

    THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

    And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?
  • kakasakikakasaki Lockhart, TXPosts: 1,205Member
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    Maybe this is important?

    I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

    THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

    And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?

    Has there ever been an MMO that has truly done this???

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member
    The biggest reason this disenchantment is happening is because MMOs are trying to be single player games instead of the virtual worlds they used to be. If you had played the MMOs that got all this started you'd see. It was a lot different and better back then (for it's time). No not everything was perfect, but the basline for MMO development was much better. WoW has pretty much cemented in a new model, but I have a feeling it will be changing back to more open world type MMOs...eventually. lol

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • GorweGorwe ZagrebPosts: 2,472Member Uncommon
    Partially in TSW and Tor, yes kakasaki. But only partially.

    I, however, love each genre for what it is(or should be) even if it's not for me. Now MMOs, they are losing the touch with what they actually are. In other words: Pubs/devs are trying to appease the whole market. You can't simply do that. The greatest example would be WoW: it is everything you make of it, but still is one big fat zero(meaning he is sort of a jack-of-all-trades). MMOs should REALLY embrace what makes them MMOs(even if that means people like me out of picture). This singleplayer/solo trend is not good for MMOs.
  • SpellforgedSpellforged Belvidere, ILPosts: 458Member
    Originally posted by Gorwe

    Are just pathetic. I simply can't play them for more than a hour. Rift reminded me(although a Great game, no doubt, it still is an MMO) what it is that I hate so much about MMOs.

    I agree with almost every one of your points.  I'll just list the ones I don't necessarily agree with.

    Respawning mobs. When the respawn time is too short, I don't feel any impact on the world and that in turn just kills the game for me. Can't you have fewer mobs that are more deadly in turn? And they respawn every...5 minutes let's say?

    That works wonderfully if you're talking about a single player experience, but it's horribly inconvenient when you add thousands of monster hungry players to the mix.  You'd think the 500,000 chosen ones all doing the same thing would ruin your sense of impact more than this.

    "Can't the whole game be, you know, fun instead of a major time sink(and yes, I do realise that's the whole purpose of games-but they need to be FUN timesinks instead of boring, boring MMO timesinks)?"

    Fun is an opinion and it's impossible to appeal to everyone.  There will now be about 20 people trying to explain how much fun they had playing WoW with friends.  Also that one kid that refused to leave his chair for days while playing old school Final Fantasy XI must really love time sinks.

    I completely agree with everything else not listed.  Well said and I'm also disgusted by the idea of playing another quest hub driven game.  I'd actually rather play an old school grind heavy game over the current quest driven models.

    image
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by nethervoid
    The biggest reason this disenchantment is happening is because MMOs are trying to be single player games instead of the virtual worlds they used to be. If you had played the MMOs that got all this started you'd see. It was a lot different and better back then (for it's time). No not everything was perfect, but the basline for MMO development was much better. WoW has pretty much cemented in a new model, but I have a feeling it will be changing back to more open world type MMOs...eventually. lol

    It is different then .. but better? MMOs are much better games now.

    And yes, they are less virtual world ... which is a good thing when the virtual world is not adding compelling fun.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,706Member Uncommon

    Hard to agree with most of these points.

    1. Yes, it'd be nice if questing tech was a little more evolved in RIFT.  WOW is a great example of a lot of story being told within quests (during actual gameplay in the game world) rather than all of it being frontloaded in the quest text.  RIFT has some of that I suppose, but not a ton.
    2. Questing is fine overall.  It's only a problem if it's the only way to advance and reach group content.  Without questing, we'd be stuck back in early MMORPGs' Endless Mob Grind, which was far worse.
    3. Respawning being too fast can be a problem, sure.  But it's certainly a minor one.
    4. In RIFT I didn't really feel "fun at endgame" was a problem because all of the game seemed about as fun.  Maybe if group gameplay was hidden behind a high level gate this would be the case, but it isn't.  You can group early and often while leveling.
    Should you try different games/genres?  Absolutely.  If the point of games is entertainment, and you're bored with a game, stop playing it and play something else.  Clearly.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    Maybe this is important?

    I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

    THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

    And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?

    Has there ever been an MMO that has truly done this???

    Sounds like he's aiming at "skill-based", but drifting into "decisions that actually affect my development".

    General answer is: MMOs aren't good at consequences. Players don't deal well with them.

    Arguably, the last time it existed in MMOSpace was pre-Respecs.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • nethervoidnethervoid xanex, CAPosts: 528Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    Maybe this is important?

    I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

    THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

    And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?

    Has there ever been an MMO that has truly done this???

    Sounds like he's aiming at "skill-based", but drifting into "decisions that actually affect my development".

    General answer is: MMOs aren't good at consequences. Players don't deal well with them.

    Arguably, the last time it existed in MMOSpace was pre-Respecs.

    Some MMOs do this well, but the consequence of action is in picking the wrong player faction or pissing off the wrong player/guild. Because MMOs shouldn't really be about how the AI treats you when you make a decision; but about how players treat you when you make a decision.

    If they would just let the players control and be the story this would automatically fix itself. The big problem is players don't really want consequences. I mean look at death penalties now. lol

    nethervoid - Est. '97
    [UO|EQ|SB|SWG|PS|HZ|EVE|NWN|WoW|VG|DF|SWTOR]
    13k subs YouTube Gaming channel

  • kakasakikakasaki Lockhart, TXPosts: 1,205Member
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by kakasaki
    Originally posted by Gorwe
    Maybe this is important?

    I am not looking to build my character in gear grinding way. I am looking to build him through the experiences he is going through, choices that he will make and sides he will choose.

    THAT is character building to me. Not the "you don't have purples-SORRY!". And yes, coexist, it definitely shouldn't take 2-3 days of playing. No matter if it's the story or the grind, your character shouldn't be built(fully) in such a short time period.

    And no icewhite, I am the last person to join teh d00m and gl0Om Bandwagen. If I detect such dislikes with what I am playing, I simply move on. Want not, waste not eh?

    Has there ever been an MMO that has truly done this???

    Sounds like he's aiming at "skill-based", but drifting into "decisions that actually affect my development".

    General answer is: MMOs aren't good at consequences. Players don't deal well with them.

    Arguably, the last time it existed in MMOSpace was pre-Respecs.

    Correct... that is what I was trying to (ineptly) imply... 

    A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Axehilt

    Hard to agree with most of these points.

    1. Yes, it'd be nice if questing tech was a little more evolved in RIFT.  WOW is a great example of a lot of story being told within quests (during actual gameplay in the game world) rather than all of it being frontloaded in the quest text.  RIFT has some of that I suppose, but not a ton.
    2. Questing is fine overall.  It's only a problem if it's the only way to advance and reach group content.  Without questing, we'd be stuck back in early MMORPGs' Endless Mob Grind, which was far worse.
    3. Respawning being too fast can be a problem, sure.  But it's certainly a minor one.
    4. In RIFT I didn't really feel "fun at endgame" was a problem because all of the game seemed about as fun.  Maybe if group gameplay was hidden behind a high level gate this would be the case, but it isn't.  You can group early and often while leveling.
    Should you try different games/genres?  Absolutely.  If the point of games is entertainment, and you're bored with a game, stop playing it and play something else.  Clearly.

    1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.

    2) Mob grind .. it depends on if combat is fun. Mob grind is fun in D3, but horrible in EQ because it was slow, and you need a group.

    3) Respawning rate can be easily adjusted. The best way is use instances. No respawn until you decide to run a fresh copy.

     

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,706Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    1) I think questing is not fine. They should do more instanced stories, and be more like SP games.

    You're basically saying "Questing isn't fine.   It should instead be questing."  Quest systems are the formalization of the goals of the game. An instanced story involves a goal or several goals, and that's all a formalized system for rewarding the player.  So it is a quest.

    It's serving the identical function of quests by framing the overall experience and providing context and purpose to actions.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,908Member Uncommon

    I'll share a theory.  It's not even an educated one, just a theory.

     

    MMO progression over the years.

     

    Phase 1.  People who like MMORPGs are the target.  Genre is fresh, they're amazed by the games.  They buy it and love it.

     

    Phase 2. People who sort of like MMORPGs are also added.  Genre is a bit stale, but the influx of players is huge.  Minor changes are adapted to help new player comfort level.  In timeframe I'd place this somewhere around WoW Vanilla.

     

    Phase 3. People who don't like MMORPGs are added as a target.  Games have to be significantly revamped so these new players will be comfortable in playing.  Genre now draws heavily on influences from SP and console (action) games.  In timeframe I'd place this with games trying to compete with WoW.  Not all of that period would have been phase 3 games, some where still trying the phase 2 formula (a few even phase 1?).

     

    By phase 3, the phase 1 people are now solidly in the minority in terms of target demographics.  If a company can pick up 10 new people by pissing off 1, of course they'll do it.

     

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
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