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Free to Play has never and does not exist

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  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Monticello, MNPosts: 418Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    I think some people defend generic F2P games because they just want to play a free game.

     Which is a perfectly viable and reasonable position.

    Agreed.

  • duuude007duuude007 MERIDIAN, IDPosts: 112Member

    If you are resigned to inconsistent updates on a product born on the ashes of a failing P2P game, I suppose.

    Sure some do well if they are F2P from day 1, but if they began P2P, it is certainly a consequence riddled decision to change to F2P. Even worse still, if you add P2W to the mix.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by duuude007

    If you are resigned to inconsistent updates on a product born on the ashes of a failing P2P game, I suppose.

    Sure some do well if they are F2P from day 1, but if they began P2P, it is certainly a consequence riddled decision to change to F2P. Even worse still, if you add P2W to the mix.

     Most of the newer f2p have just as many updates as any p2p, have just as good quality, have just as good customer service.  And more and more are switching to f2p, not because they were failing (EQ, EQ2, Lotro...) but because they make even more money as f2p.

    Your position is not supported by the evidence available. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • duuude007duuude007 MERIDIAN, IDPosts: 112Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by duuude007

    If you are resigned to inconsistent updates on a product born on the ashes of a failing P2P game, I suppose.

    Sure some do well if they are F2P from day 1, but if they began P2P, it is certainly a consequence riddled decision to change to F2P. Even worse still, if you add P2W to the mix.

     Most of the newer f2p have just as many updates as any p2p, have just as good quality, have just as good customer service.  And more and more are switching to f2p, not because they were failing (EQ, EQ2, Lotro...) but because they make even more money as f2p.

    Your position is not supported by the evidence available. 

    I did not say the problem necessarily occurs on games born F2P, in fact I credit many F2P-born titles with their success.

    Be careful what hairs you are trying to split here.

    Also, how do you compare F2P profits? The number of free accounts for a title are cumulative from launch, and therefore not reflective of the profit margin.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    My statement included p2p changing to f2p and gave several examples of this

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    I think some people defend generic F2P games because they just want to play a free game.

     Which is a perfectly viable and reasonable position.

    Agreed.

    Yeah. And there are plenty of fun F2P games to play.

  • duuude007duuude007 MERIDIAN, IDPosts: 112Member

    Switching to F2P often results in a quick cash grab because they must incentivize spending money (free, lulz) in order to stay afloat.

    Suddenly you have a whole segment of the development team dedicating their time to adding more quantities of incentives to keep people paying, and less time on improving the quality of the game.

  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Monticello, MNPosts: 418Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    I think some people defend generic F2P games because they just want to play a free game.

     Which is a perfectly viable and reasonable position.

    Agreed.

    Yeah. And there are plenty of fun F2P games to play.

    Meh... that's subjective. Perhaps I'm a bit too particular when it comes to these things. I find F2P games to suck. To each their own, I always say.

  • GundricGundric Memphis, TNPosts: 341Member Uncommon
    there is no such thing as a free lunch. 
  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,751Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    I think some people defend generic F2P games because they just want to play a free game.

    Agreed, and that's fine.

    And some of us defend F2P games because they sell the game, not the marketing-driven image of the game.  When you pay money to a F2P game it's because you've played it for free for a while and you understand whether it's enjoyable or not.  With a B2P game (including virtually all P2P games, since they involve a similar up-front fee) it's easier to trick players with some stellar marketing campaign which makes the game appear more fun than it actually plays.

    And because game quality is a stronger driver of revenue in a F2P game than P2P, "generic" games do poorly while great F2P games earn what they deserve.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,751Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GranDux

    Nothing in life is for free. 

    If you and Gundric are referring to the time cost of a F2P game, then sure that's true.

    But clearly free to play games can be played for free, and be quite balanced and fun in many cases (the balanced ones like Smite, LoL, Tribes, and TF2 have earned far more of my money than the imbalanced pay2win ones.)

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • JetrpgJetrpg Whitehouse, OHPosts: 2,376Member
    Originally posted by randomonetimeposter

    This is what companies do. They have, let's say, a free period. Where a player can play their game without hassle. After this grace period they start to put in certain measures to Force said player to either buy stuff from their store or sub for the game. This is from hands on experience and it goes for any game company.

     

    Saying a game company who sells their game as F2P, has only making money in their curriculum, is quite accurate.

     

    A writer on MMORPG wrote an article about F2P which I read. Decent enough I guess. But since I've always believed that game companies are no worse than the maffia when it comes to raking in cash from their customers I will continue to A. Buy games and B. Sub for games. No inbetween prostitution or slavery.

     

    What they are doing is calling US, yes gamers, stupid.

    LoL is f2p.

    "Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  • duuude007duuude007 MERIDIAN, IDPosts: 112Member
    Originally posted by Jetrpg
    LoL is f2p.

    Which uses a cash shop to keep itself afloat.

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,754Member Uncommon
    I don't know why we even bother responding in threads like this.....Ive been playing f2ps since 2005 and have only spent money on one (which was definitely my choice).....I haven't played one yet that forced you to spend money and if it does you simply move on......I for one was grateful for games going f2p as I spent alot of money back in the days when the only choice you had was p2p.
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Maybe by the end of the year we will get a couple that deserve AAA status, it could be that the success of GW2 will secure funding/extra funding for great titles coming out in the next couple of years. I can only think of a couple of titles that even look like contenders for big funding in the near future. That's why I am so concerned.

    Why are you concerned at all? I see enough MMO-like development ... WoP, WoWS, D3 expansion, Destiny, Lineage Eternal .... that it is not likely that i will have nothing to play. Plus, all the existing games like STO are adding content.

    And i thought you are in the camp of staying-true-to-one-game. If so, why do you care if there will be lots of development. You just need one.

    The development you are mentioning here is good in my eyes too. It is a lateral development, into other online game styles, the more the merrier and there is real quality in some of those games. But I am talking about 3D third person MMO's, not even talking about traditional MMO's here or sandbox. I think the only 3D third person game you mentioned was LE? Its that style of gameplay that costs serious funding. Would you say LE was a AAA release this year?

    I accept the likes of STO are doing some good updates, I could add LOTRO and others to that list. But these are MMO's that launched as P2P with the better funding a P2P MMO gets. Not getting that funding effects production values, but not necessarily how good the gameplay is. I am talking about quality of graphics, 3D third person and size of the game world, that's what is going to be hit. Does anyone know if we have had even one P2P launch this year?

    This is my concern, we get all our lemming like players saying "Yeah it is F2P now, I waited until it was, aren't I clever." Meanwhile we are headed of a cliff where very few MMO's are coming out with that P2P funding. So will our lemmings be saying that next year, the year after that?

    It is like eating the goose that lays the golden egg and saying "Yeah aren't we lucky!"

  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon
    Since I'm not a penniless hippie, I'm pretty OK with the fact that it costs money to play games that cost millions of dollars to develop.
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by duuude007
    Originally posted by Jetrpg LoL is f2p.

    Which uses a cash shop to keep itself afloat.


    Again, this is not a revelation. Everyone here knows that a F2P game is not Free. Games require money to operate. Some aspects of the game are given away for free, and some aspects cost money. That is "Free To Play".

    When there is an issue, it is with individual game implementations, not Free To Play itself. Giving away some free "taste" of something has been part of business as long as there have been markets. "Free To Play" is just a new version of this process. It allows more people to join games that they otherwise might not even try. It allows half of the people playing F2P MMOs to play for free. Millions of people are playing MMOs for free when they otherwise wouldn't play them at all. Developers are making more money and more people are playing.

    Now, I'm not saying it's all roses and sunshine, but it's not all belladonna and moonlight either. Each game will rise or fall based on the merits of the game, which includes the merits of that game's F2P implementation. If they have a poor F2P implementation, it can tank the game. If they have a good implementation, it will help the game. LoL has more players than any other online game. I would say this means their F2P implementation is a good one, or at least one that doesn't take away from the game.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common

    Of course there are free to play games ! All you have to do is getting a freeware game. Theres even MMOs:

    http://www.planeshift.it/

    http://stendhalgame.org/

    http://www.ryzom.de/

    http://www.multiversemmo.com/site/

    Of course, you have to either provide the server hardware, or find somebody who does it for you.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,554Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Adamantine

    Of course there are free to play games ! All you have to do is getting a freeware game. Theres even MMOs:

    http://www.planeshift.it/

    http://stendhalgame.org/

    http://www.ryzom.de/

    http://www.multiversemmo.com/site/

    Of course, you have to either provide the server hardware, or find somebody who does it for you.

    If it's that free then it's illegal.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Jemcrystal
    Originally posted by Adamantine Of course there are free to play games ! All you have to do is getting a freeware game. Theres even MMOs: http://www.planeshift.it/ http://stendhalgame.org/ http://www.ryzom.de/ http://www.multiversemmo.com/site/ Of course, you have to either provide the server hardware, or find somebody who does it for you.
    If it's that free then it's illegal.


    Er, no. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what those games offer.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    If you could enlighten us? These Games are open source or the like, but you need your own server to run some of them?
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    I think some people defend generic F2P games because they just want to play a free game.

     Which is a perfectly viable and reasonable position.

    Agreed.

    Yeah. And there are plenty of fun F2P games to play.

    Meh... that's subjective. Perhaps I'm a bit too particular when it comes to these things. I find F2P games to suck. To each their own, I always say.

    Of course fun is subjective. However, millions of players, including me, are playing these games and the games must be fun for them (and for me). Otherwise, why would i spend even a second in them?

    So if you don't like them, don't play. But millions others do.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Maybe by the end of the year we will get a couple that deserve AAA status, it could be that the success of GW2 will secure funding/extra funding for great titles coming out in the next couple of years. I can only think of a couple of titles that even look like contenders for big funding in the near future. That's why I am so concerned.

    Why are you concerned at all? I see enough MMO-like development ... WoP, WoWS, D3 expansion, Destiny, Lineage Eternal .... that it is not likely that i will have nothing to play. Plus, all the existing games like STO are adding content.

    And i thought you are in the camp of staying-true-to-one-game. If so, why do you care if there will be lots of development. You just need one.

    The development you are mentioning here is good in my eyes too. It is a lateral development, into other online game styles, the more the merrier and there is real quality in some of those games. But I am talking about 3D first person MMO's, not even talking about traditional MMO's here or sandbox. I think the only 3D first person game you mentioned was LE? Its that style of gameplay that costs serious funding. Would you say LE was a AAA release this year?

    I accept the likes of STO are doing some good updates, I could add LOTRO and others to that list. But these are MMO's that launched as P2P with the better funding a P2P MMO gets. Not getting that funding effects production values, but not necessarily how good the gameplay is. I am talking about quality of graphics, 3D first person and size of the game world, that's what is going to be hit. Does anyone know if we have had even one P2P launch this year?

    This is my concern, we get all our lemming like players saying "Yeah it is F2P now, I waited until it was, aren't I clever." Meanwhile we are headed of a cliff where very few MMO's are coming out with that P2P funding. So will our lemmings be saying that next year, the year after that?

    It is like eating the goose that lays the golden egg and saying "Yeah aren't we lucky!"


    LE is isometric, diablo style. It may not even come out in 2013.

    You mean 3D THIRD person? There is no (or very few) 3D 1st person MMO.

    But the real issue is this .. why do we "need" P2P funding? So they make shorter games, with less content. It does not say the quality decreases. So we will just have more games, but shorter ones to play. That is perfectly fine with me.

    And yeah we are lucky. I have no problem killing the goose. There are other animals to eat, after the goose is all gone.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,145Member Uncommon
    Really wondering if any1 of those that want all games go free have ever in his/her life worked for free for any1 or anything. Guess not. Such people love free things when OTHERS money and time is involved. 
  • ZairuZairu Portland, ORPosts: 469Member
    Originally posted by Datastar
    Originally posted by DMKano

    I disagree - PoE and Neverwinter, I maxed out in both games never spent a single cent.

     

     

     didnt neverwinter just come out and your already maxed out?  mmorpgs used to be played for very long periods of time, this f2p instant gratification market makes me sick.  Like little rabbits hopping from 1 game to the next and game designers are profiting off the slum the mmorpg market has been in.  When someone comes out and releases a real title that has massive staying power and appeals to many these little freemium games will taper off.

     

     

     

    what did you do about gaming before MMORPGs came out?

     

    did you buy games, beat them, and then play another? does that make you sick about yourself that you used to play games like that?

     

    or was the first video game you played an MMORPG?

     

    i remember fondly my first video game. it was 'Adventure'. my player character was a square. my sword was two lines. and the dragons looked like badly stenciled sea horses.

     

    i beat the game, and then played space invaders, and yes, i felt sick to my stomach afterwards, realizing i had become a game hopper!

     

    and then there was 'Mario'. can you believe that i had the nerve to play 'Castlevania' after i played 'Mario'. AND THEN!!! THEN!!!.... i played 'Metroid'.

     

    Omg, your right. this sickens me. i feel so dirty now....

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