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Too many mediocre MMOs - Are the developers really the problem?

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  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Phoenix, AZPosts: 823Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Asariasha

    Now I'm asking you:

    What do you think? Are developers and publishers the reason why the last major MMO releases were not accepted by many players, or do certain players due to their way of life cause a lot of rant that leads to public rejection of a game?

     

     

    As a gamer I've noticed this trend to more mediocre MMO's . The fault does rest with the Devs. The reasons being . Chasing the WOW formula. What is that formula ? It has more to do with accessibility at this point then anything else. That game is highly accessible , you don't need much to play the game , short of a hamster and screen ( exaggeration ) . The point being it's not a high resource game.

      The other factor is consoles. In the drive to make MMO's more appealing to a larger population it had to be easily accessible and appealing to the console gen of players. Simpler is and always will be better. This gen is more about running through content then puzzles. Even though the puzzles don't present much of a challenge anymore , thanks to google and youtube.

      In all fairness gamers were I believe more serious ( or should I say dedicated ? )back in the day. Good luck putting a 75 man raid together nowadays or even 40 man. Makes games more accessible has had the consequence of dropping the level to the lowest common denominator. Devs have responded accordingly , until it became this vicious circle. People are basically lazy and the devs have corresponding become so.

    image
  • william0532william0532 portland, ORPosts: 251Member

    Nope it's the players fault, and the markets fault.

    Players are at fault

    1. base your expectations on what features on what an mmo should contain based off what a game you played for 5 to 10 years had when it went tits up. Don't think about how many expansions, and updates aforementioned game had in it's time span, just hold the next game accountable to somehow have 5-10 years of content at launch. 

    2. Gamer's expectations are stupid. Take any game, mix the best features from every game you've ever played, and expect the one game coming out to incorporate all of them. 

    3. Gamer's are as unified as the panel on any Jerry Springer episode. They can all agree that a game sucks, and they are united as hell voicing their complaints with other's that are complaining about other features. Now, ask that same unified group what the game needs, and they are torn apart instantly(sandbox features, more themepark features, less PvP, more PvP and on and on). The only thing gamer's will agree on, is publisher hate, but ask about a specific gameplay mechanic, or game feature, and they are instantly on opposite sides. What can a developer do when they have any given 100 gamers, all wanting 100 different things.

    4. Complaining about games, is the new trendy hip thing to do. It's more important for jackwads to spend their days hating a game(lets say guildwars 2) rather than playing another game. I don't like GW2, but I don't post about it, cause I don't f****** play it.(that and I'm a FPS guy-planetside/star citizen type stuff). I don't post "GW2 would be so much better if it was in first person, and came with rifles". Doesn't stop a lot of people from posting their stupid "what this game needs" cries.

    Market

    There is a ton of options, why limit your self to one game that your done with.

     Why should anyone stick with a game for more than six months, there is a completely new game always coming out, with all brand new stuff to check out. You could probably try a new online game every day for the next year, why stick with any of them. Why wait for SWTOR to add a new planet, when there will be another game thats 100% new to you. Why stick with GW2 waiting on the next micro update, when there is more games in the same genre always coming out with different stuff to check out. Why keep playing planetside 2 when you can try out defiance, or any of the other shooter mmo's? 

    Basically, why wait for a little content update, when you can jump ship to another game, and get a 100% brand new experience.

    The only thing keeping some games like WoW with the same numbers, is the community grew familiar with each other. it's the social familiarity that keeps those people there.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk

    As a gamer I've noticed this trend to more mediocre MMO's .

    Anecdote isn't premise.

    But if you begin with this anecdote, without jumping directly to the conclusion in the very next sentence, we're willing to entertain the conversation, fair enough?

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • TimothyTierlessTimothyTierless Columnist M, ORPosts: 2,163Member Uncommon

    I've never heard from a dev that wanted to make a bad game, unfortunately they end up having to do what old white haired corporate money mongers want, which is whatever gets them more players and makes said game appeal to every human on this planet.

  • wizyywizyy Novi SadPosts: 629Member
    No, I am to blame for mediocre MMOs...  image
  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by Tierless

    I've never heard from a dev that wanted to make a bad game, unfortunately they end up having to do what old white haired corporate money mongers want, which is whatever gets them more players and makes said game appeal to every human on this planet.

    Being acquainted with several CBC (corporate bean-counters), and (personally) with at least one lead developer and a double handful of his seniors, I suggest this is at best a very partial truth (i.e. overstatement, rather than maxim).

    The problem with most of these arguments (and we've all heard them, many thousands of times) is their reliance on "gamer shorthand", those handy abbreviated sound-byte declarations that shortcut discussion with "everyone knows", of the type that politicians are so very fond of.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    I think the problem is Marketing-driven MMORPG design.  Marketing folks take a poll of players and get back stuff like "we want more story", "I want my actions to impact the whole world", "I want to be the hero", etc...  And when players get that, many of them hate it.

    Devs need to follow the MMORPG "vision" and that is "world".

    I've never been polled by any marketer (except possibly here, viral marketers?) about an mmo. Designers haven't ever worked that way, anywhere, to my knowledge.

    But I don't know, maybe somewhere? Guys?

    A truth, or ForumTruth?

    I was invited into such poll about ArcheAge 10 minutes ago.

    http://fluidsurveys.com/s/archeage-online-2013-fan-demographics/?code=hdrwcd8b37

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    I think the problem is Marketing-driven MMORPG design.  Marketing folks take a poll of players and get back stuff like "we want more story", "I want my actions to impact the whole world", "I want to be the hero", etc...  And when players get that, many of them hate it.

    Devs need to follow the MMORPG "vision" and that is "world".

    I've never been polled by any marketer (except possibly here, viral marketers?) about an mmo. Designers haven't ever worked that way, anywhere, to my knowledge.

    But I don't know, maybe somewhere? Guys?

    A truth, or ForumTruth?

    I was invited into such poll about ArcheAge 10 minutes ago.

    http://fluidsurveys.com/s/archeage-online-2013-fan-demographics/?code=hdrwcd8b37

    Ooh, cool, and I'm not even remotely a player. Think I'll go muck with their data collection.

    Sweet,  no code required :)

    I am sorry, nothing against game or company, just poor methodology always makes me twitch. Hopefully they won't be opening any African data centers as result.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  • Shadowguy64Shadowguy64 Rohnert Park, CAPosts: 848Member
    Originally posted by william0532

    Nope it's the players fault, and the markets fault.

    Players are at fault

    1. base your expectations on what features on what an mmo should contain based off what a game you played for 5 to 10 years had when it went tits up. Don't think about how many expansions, and updates aforementioned game had in it's time span, just hold the next game accountable to somehow have 5-10 years of content at launch. 

    2. Gamer's expectations are stupid. Take any game, mix the best features from every game you've ever played, and expect the one game coming out to incorporate all of them. 

    3. Gamer's are as unified as the panel on any Jerry Springer episode. They can all agree that a game sucks, and they are united as hell voicing their complaints with other's that are complaining about other features. Now, ask that same unified group what the game needs, and they are torn apart instantly(sandbox features, more themepark features, less PvP, more PvP and on and on). The only thing gamer's will agree on, is publisher hate, but ask about a specific gameplay mechanic, or game feature, and they are instantly on opposite sides. What can a developer do when they have any given 100 gamers, all wanting 100 different things.

    4. Complaining about games, is the new trendy hip thing to do. It's more important for jackwads to spend their days hating a game(lets say guildwars 2) rather than playing another game. I don't like GW2, but I don't post about it, cause I don't f****** play it.(that and I'm a FPS guy-planetside/star citizen type stuff). I don't post "GW2 would be so much better if it was in first person, and came with rifles". Doesn't stop a lot of people from posting their stupid "what this game needs" cries.

    Market

    There is a ton of options, why limit your self to one game that your done with.

     Why should anyone stick with a game for more than six months, there is a completely new game always coming out, with all brand new stuff to check out. You could probably try a new online game every day for the next year, why stick with any of them. Why wait for SWTOR to add a new planet, when there will be another game thats 100% new to you. Why stick with GW2 waiting on the next micro update, when there is more games in the same genre always coming out with different stuff to check out. Why keep playing planetside 2 when you can try out defiance, or any of the other shooter mmo's? 

    Basically, why wait for a little content update, when you can jump ship to another game, and get a 100% brand new experience.

    The only thing keeping some games like WoW with the same numbers, is the community grew familiar with each other. it's the social familiarity that keeps those people there.

     

    +1

     

    Very good post.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by ReallyNow10

    I think the problem is Marketing-driven MMORPG design.  Marketing folks take a poll of players and get back stuff like "we want more story", "I want my actions to impact the whole world", "I want to be the hero", etc...  And when players get that, many of them hate it.

    Devs need to follow the MMORPG "vision" and that is "world".

    I've never been polled by any marketer (except possibly here, viral marketers?) about an mmo. Designers haven't ever worked that way, anywhere, to my knowledge.

    But I don't know, maybe somewhere? Guys?

    A truth, or ForumTruth?

    I was invited into such poll about ArcheAge 10 minutes ago.

    http://fluidsurveys.com/s/archeage-online-2013-fan-demographics/?code=hdrwcd8b37

    Ooh, cool, and I'm not even remotely a player. Think I'll go muck with their data collection.

    Sweet,  no code required :)

    I am sorry, nothing against game or company, just poor methodology always make me twitch.

    Maybe If I spent more time manipulating the data instead of bitching on the forum, I would finally get a game I want.

    No need to be sorry, I do not usually get offended over PC games.

    I tend to keep my dignity. It is only rarely that my monkey instinct kicks in and I get involved in a fight.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • rusmurfrusmurf Kensington, MDPosts: 18Member

    Is the OP really suggesting that gamers MMO addictions are causing games to fail.

    How many MMOs are derivative of WoW and it's mechanics?

    There is a hundred different reasons that alot of MMOs fail. Having alot of decisions made by a board and shareholders, is probably another reason some MMOs aren't successful.

  • GorweGorwe Ald'RuhnPosts: 2,473Member Uncommon
    It's the same as when fight happens. Nobody's innocent. Agressor is well...agressor. He who was defending himself is guilty because he, in 75% cases, offended/slandered/taunted the agressor. The environment is guilty because they simply watched that happen(and enjoying themselves) instead of doing something to stop the fight. Now let's translate this to the MMO medium, shall we?

    The agressors would be the Pubs-they agressively shove the same cr@p down our throats again and again and again.
    The Defenders, would be us, the gamers. We are guilty because we keep buying the same cr@p over and over and over again.
    The environment would be well...economic environment. It is guilty for being so capitalistic and free and open. In other words: who cares if something's a scam as long as there are suckers buying it? Precisely! That's why the wild capitalism needs to be toned down/restrained.

    As you see: nobody is innocent. We are all to blame.

    heheheh

    You wanted the truth, you got it. Now live with it. It has...ironic aftertaste no?
  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    A MMO that could ever suffer from "lack of content" is as flawed as it gets. They need to make games more cyclical and less linear.
  • DestaiDestai Detroit, MIPosts: 574Member

    Developers are absolutely the problem, as are the publishers. Game after game after game is a failure. The players can easily explain why. Here's a few I can name off the top of my head:

    1. Lack of endgame

    2. Shitty UI

    3. Not enough class/race diversity

    4. Generic formula

    They're like lemmings - they just keep jumping off the cliff. It's sad, because people's jobs and legacies are at risk. And it's all because they're under this delusion that will have anywhere near the success that Blizzard has. You'd think after the first seven failures, they'd realize they either need more time/money or should have just made a different kind of game. They make assumptions, like the IP will carry the title. It won't and in the process, you've tarnished the IP. This happened with LoTRO, SWTOR and will happen with TESO. 

    I understand where the developers/publishers are coming from. "Our game has X feature - WoW had X feature." Well, that's fine. But WoW also features Y and Z. They don't get it. They don't get that you can't release a game with no or few raids. You can't release a game with gender locked classes or no character customization. You can't release a game with promises you'll add something 6 months down the road. You won't and your game will die.  Then you'll be packing your boxes and be onto the next crappy game that makes the same mistakes. You above all can't release a game, call it a roleplaying game and then lack basic character customization or developer. Have some common sense. Your development cycle is too costly? Then change your goddamn business model. Do not have the hubris to release a game with a subscription fee. This isn't 2000. This isn't 2004. Make it buy to play/free to play if you want any measure of success. 

    I apologize if this comes off bitter, but it's true. It's a vicious cycle. Player's aren't the problem here. We know what we want and we're voting with our dollars. If for a moment I don't enjoy your game, I'm not playing it. Developers need to internalize that idiom because that's what's happening. 

    All customers should be merciless with these companies, maybe then they'll listen to us and give us something worth playing. Personally, I'm happy to see the outright hostility that's greeting TESO. Just stop. Stop shoving crap games out and take one bloody second to think. Is this fun? If you see forums outraged, maybe you should change something. 

  • worldalphaworldalpha Milton, ONPosts: 403Member
    Not sure if you are looking at AAA or indie, but obviously indies have less resources, and may appear to be mediocre in comparison to AAA budgets.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  • AG-VukAG-Vuk Phoenix, AZPosts: 823Member Uncommon
     Originally posted by Icewhite
    Originally posted by AG-Vuk

    As a gamer I've noticed this trend to more mediocre MMO's .

    Anecdote isn't premise.

    But if you begin with this anecdote, without jumping directly to the conclusion in the very next sentence, we're willing to entertain the conversation, fair enough?

    Anecdote :  1. a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature.

    2. a short, obscure historical or biographical account.

    I believe it applies as a biographical account , which it clearly states. Then it launches to a personal opinion. Which is what the thread clearly asks for. I proceed to justify my beliefs. You are now welcome to discuss my opinion . It may not follow a format that you appreciate . But hey, it's the internet . During the day between tasks, this is what I do.  

    Now, I found your post insolent and condescending. You presume much and it's not appreciated.

     

     

    image
  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon
    I agree never been so many mediocre mmo's on market .. but at same time never been so many good games. All in all situation is better then in past when there was game A and B. And nothing more.
  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon

    I would say the problem is with publisher who consistently have completely unrealistic expectations. They simply don't realize that WoW's success was a fluke that will most likely never happen again in the genre.

     

    Developers are fine. We currently have a fantastic number of really stellar MMORPGs to play, more than at any other point in the past ten years. There are plenty of haters here on the forum, but Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, Rift, Age of Conan, Lord of the Rings Online, Wizard101, Aion, Eve Online, and even World of Warcraft are all fantastic games, and I've certainly left out many more.

     

    Publisher need to stop shooting for World of Warcraft success and instead aim for Eve Online style growth.

    <3

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member
    Originally posted by Asariasha
    Hello,

     

    as a self reflected person I love to think a lot and to play around with numbers. For quite a few years, tons of topics show up stating that most of todays MMOs are mediocre at best and that the developers did not offer enough content. Please, do not misunderstand me. I love gaming and MMOs, but I believe that it is important to have at least some sort of balance. Not only work life balance. An overall balance helping us to enjoy our life. Enough said, I present you an interesting quotation of an interview with James Ohlen, Senior Creative Director for SWTOR.

     

    Ohlen said the BioWare team had expected players to take three to four months to go through the 180 hours of content they'd created. The metrics they were getting informed them the average player was going through the game at 40 hours a week, with some players spending 80-120 hours in the game in a week. Source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/30/4158734/bioware-details-the-bumpy-first-year-of-star-wars-the-old-republic

     

    Let's play around with numbers.

     

    A week has got 168 hours. Most people tend to use 33% of that time to sleep (8h per day). After sleeping you take a shower and have a coffe which makes 4% (1hour per day). Driving to work takes roughly 2% (30minutes). Approx 23% of the overall time is work time (25% if you have a 30 minutes lunch break.). Let us be fair and add 1 hour for shopping and other stuff that needs to be handled. Plus 4%. Dinner? We live in a fast living world, so we add up 2% (30minutes). Now, count everything together: That makes 70%.

     

    Taking the numbers of James Ohlen, a player investing ...

    ... 21 hours (12,5%) (3h per day) per week to play reaches 82,5%

    ... 40 hours (23%) per week to play reaches 93%

    ... 80 hours (47%) per week to play reaches 117%

    ... 120 hours (66%) per week to play reaches 136%

     

    ... and we did not count in meeting and socializing with friends, shopping, or doing anything else besides playing an online game.

     

    Now I'm asking you:

    What do you think? Are developers and publishers the reason why the last major MMO releases were not accepted by many players, or do certain players due to their way of life cause a lot of rant that leads to public rejection of a game?

     

     

    No for 90% the gamers are couse of decline and result of mediocre mmo's

     

    All the wiki's walkthroughs and the freeloaders in alpha/beta's help decline of mmo's plus all cheaters, bot's exploiters/hackers do there part on downfall and dumbdown mmo's disaster.

  • DarkDemonExDarkDemonEx bottom of nowerePosts: 19Member

    I personally blame the developers.

     

    The way an mmo used to be made was to be developed with a years worth of content, and a slower levelling experience, which of course gave the devs more time to create more content.

    This day and age of "I want to hit cap in 2 weeks or the games a borefest" means devs create a game with what they think is 6 months of content, but is in reality a month at best, which logically leaves them no time at all to create more content, or anything worth logging back in for.

    I could blame the playerbase, or go so far as to blame WoW for creating a generation of instant gratification within the MMO community, dumbing down of game systems and taking away all challenge or lifespan a game used to have, but at the end of the day it is the devs that listen to that playerbase, and in turn it is the devs that sink to that level to make a quick buck.

     

     

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DarkDemonEx

    I personally blame the developers.

     

    The way an mmo used to be made was to be developed with a years worth of content, and a slower levelling experience, which of course gave the devs more time to create more content.

    This day and age of "I want to hit cap in 2 weeks or the games a borefest" means devs create a game with what they think is 6 months of content, but is in reality a month at best, which logically leaves them no time at all to create more content, or anything worth logging back in for.

    I could blame the playerbase, or go so far as to blame WoW for creating a generation of instant gratification within the MMO community, dumbing down of game systems and taking away all challenge or lifespan a game used to have, but at the end of the day it is the devs that listen to that playerbase, and in turn it is the devs that sink to that level to make a quick buck.

     

     

    Funny comments, DEVS have very little say I know this because I been a DEV for many years, publishers have almost all the say our boss's have almost all the say, so I find it funny when most gamers have no clue what it takes to make a game, and they bash DEVS, I was a gamer and still i'm, and went on the other side of things because I didn't know now I see the problem, it is the publishers and Gamer's, Gamer's need to stop buying and Publishers will wake up ....

     

    Gamers whine when a game is to hard look at TSW, any game that takes time players whine, and whine, we get more complaints about games that take more than a month to max out... So these comments are funny I wish some of you gamers would make a game just one and see what we see... Just once.. No clue...

    Then indie's , make something that takes a long time and its to long, make up  your mind... My favorite game of all time is Asheron call 1,     I plan to make something on a smaller scale like it, but not for the players, but because I like it because I get tired of them blaming DEVS when they need to look in the mirror, STOP BUYING THESE GAMES!!!! then Publishers will understand, they like fast cash...... Our boss's listen to them NOT us, we just do the work!!!  Get a clue before you bash DEVS..

     

     

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,441Member Uncommon

    Most games do not have any community design built into them,auto grouping then disbands when dungeon is done,auto loot so nobody sets u pa group with a purpose.Solo design eliminates need for any guild or friends.Just really bad,cheap game design.

    Then we have missing components,most are simple linear questing leading directly to some boring end game,so neither the ride was fun nor is the result.Exploration,they try to make uneventful exploring relevant by attaching AA's to it.Rewards in games are pathetic,they try to excite players by giving them very easy rewards for doing literally nothing,basically pampering players to play their game.That leads to yet another problem,hand holding is the MAIN design approach ,you literally have the game play itself,shows you were to go,how to get there,where the hidden objects are"not so hidden then are they".

    Then we have the story telling,how on earth can you properly display a story in a 3D video game using static art?It looks ugly and does nothing for immersion and even worse is in these ugly cut scenes your player is not even in them.

    Speaking of immersion,you do NEED quality texture work and definition in models otherwise you might as well display a MUD game.

    So yes 100% most definitely ,it has nothing to do with time spent or the gamer's,well perhaps the gamer's are at fault for supporting this poor quality in game design.

    The problem can stem even further into COST.I have seen some incredibly lame numbers posted around on development cost,that simply do not show themselves in the game's quality.So we have some developers that are really bad at wasting money and achieving nothing with it.Blizzard is imo one of those devs that waste a lot of money.Look no further than Titan,how well was this project thought out ,if they have to scrap it ?

    It is not looking too good right now,devs are either incompetent or lack funds or waste funds or can't think for themselves so just copy other games.This is going to be a tough cycle to get out of and bring back some smart creative minds/producers/developers.


    Samoan Diamond

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal st clair shores, MIPosts: 809Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Most games do not have any community design built into them,auto grouping then disbands when dungeon is done,auto loot so nobody sets u pa group with a purpose.Solo design eliminates need for any guild or friends.Just really bad,cheap game design.

    Then we have missing components,most are simple linear questing leading directly to some boring end game,so neither the ride was fun nor is the result.Exploration,they try to make uneventful exploring relevant by attaching AA's to it.Rewards in games are pathetic,they try to excite players by giving them very easy rewards for doing literally nothing,basically pampering players to play their game.That leads to yet another problem,hand holding is the MAIN design approach ,you literally have the game play itself,shows you were to go,how to get there,where the hidden objects are"not so hidden then are they".

    Then we have the story telling,how on earth can you properly display a story in a 3D video game using static art?It looks ugly and does nothing for immersion and even worse is in these ugly cut scenes your player is not even in them.

    Speaking of immersion,you do NEED quality texture work and definition in models otherwise you might as well display a MUD game.

    So yes 100% most definitely ,it has nothing to do with time spent or the gamer's,well perhaps the gamer's are at fault for supporting this poor quality in game design.

    The problem can stem even further into COST.I have seen some incredibly lame numbers posted around on development cost,that simply do not show themselves in the game's quality.So we have some developers that are really bad at wasting money and achieving nothing with it.Blizzard is imo one of those devs that waste a lot of money.Look no further than Titan,how well was this project thought out ,if they have to scrap it ?

    It is not looking too good right now,devs are either incompetent or lack funds or waste funds or can't think for themselves so just copy other games.This is going to be a tough cycle to get out of and bring back some smart creative minds/producers/developers.

    Once again this has to do with feed back in games, people whine about some of this stuff , players who like the game don't comment, which they need to start, also gamers today do horrible testing, and then complain later, DEVS can only test so many different computers, so they use Open testing, closed testing, you know how many times, I sat there and watch players say , just tell the devs the game is good so they release it, funny stuff to watch. 

     

    I went into Game Production thinking it has to be the DEVS, now I know the truth... Its US... The Gamers and Publishers.. Period. 

  • DarkDemonExDarkDemonEx bottom of nowerePosts: 19Member
    Originally posted by Darkcrystal
    Originally posted by DarkDemonEx

    I personally blame the developers.

     

    The way an mmo used to be made was to be developed with a years worth of content, and a slower levelling experience, which of course gave the devs more time to create more content.

    This day and age of "I want to hit cap in 2 weeks or the games a borefest" means devs create a game with what they think is 6 months of content, but is in reality a month at best, which logically leaves them no time at all to create more content, or anything worth logging back in for.

    I could blame the playerbase, or go so far as to blame WoW for creating a generation of instant gratification within the MMO community, dumbing down of game systems and taking away all challenge or lifespan a game used to have, but at the end of the day it is the devs that listen to that playerbase, and in turn it is the devs that sink to that level to make a quick buck.

     

     

    Funny comments, DEVS have very little say I know this because I been a DEV for many years, publishers have almost all the say our boss's have almost all the say, so I find it funny when most gamers have no clue what it takes to make a game, and they bash DEVS, I was a gamer and still i'm, and went on the other side of things because I didn't know now I see the problem, it is the publishers and Gamer's, Gamer's need to stop buying and Publishers will wake up ....

     

    Gamers whine when a game is to hard look at TSW, any game that takes time players whine, and whine, we get more complaints about games that take more than a month to max out... So these comments are funny I wish some of you gamers would make a game just one and see what we see... Just once.. No clue...

    Then indie's , make something that takes a long time and its to long, make up  your mind... My favorite game of all time is Asheron call 1,     I plan to make something on a smaller scale like it, but not for the players, but because I like it because I get tired of them blaming DEVS when they need to look in the mirror, STOP BUYING THESE GAMES!!!! then Publishers will understand, they like fast cash...... Our boss's listen to them NOT us, we just do the work!!!  Get a clue before you bash DEVS..

     

     

    Devs, publishers, either way, Crying easy mode kids cry, publishers want changes, devs make it happen, it is a chain of stupidity that all started in one place.

    As for not buying into these games, well I have a simple answer for that, direct your attention elsewhere, the last game I bought by a western publisher was SWTOR, then I spent my money on a Korean SSN and started playing games that have some depth left in them.

    End of the day it is publishers/devs that fold for the whiners, as for them being two separate entities.... Just because they go under two different names, if the studio is OWNED by the publisher, then they are one in the same.

  • AsariashaAsariasha Somewhere inPosts: 218Member Uncommon

    @Rusque:

    Where I reflected myself to? Well, I am a MMORPG fan for over 13 years. I read James Ohlens interview and simply saw some parallels. In Dark Age of Camelot, EvE Online and several other MMOs I used to play similar amounts of time. 4-6 hours per day, on weekends peaking at 12 hours. Today, being a 33 years old man with a cool job and a woman at my side, these numbers sound incredible to me, but I understand that it is easily possible.

     

    I am simply wondering how players manage to play a game for 40 and up to 120 hours a week while continuously bashing the game on different forums after maxing out their level. You see, if you invest that much time in a game, you certainly do like the game. If not, you would not have invested that much time. So, the question arises where exactly the problems begin. Taking for example games like SWTOR or Guild Wars 2. Both are of very high quality. Please don't understand naming these games and stating that they are of high quality as fanboism. I played both games and I simply wasn't hooked. Still, these games are very good and they offered me a lot of fun for some time.

     

    I have got a very own idea on the topic. Players expectations versus players personal needs versus players complaints create a misty idea that developers try to read in order to create the utopia of a game marketers try to sell. In all of this players rush through games having forgotten that they actually play a game that is meant to deliver fun, but that suddenly stops to be fun, because developers answered to the marketers saying, that more money could be made if the game was better aligned to a certain target audience - to everyone! However, the answer to what the target audience wants is gathered by the audience itself. And there you have it. Some sort of vicious circle that seems only to be able to be broken out, if developers stop listening to the players and start creating their vision of a great MMO.

     

    I think william0532 gave a good explanation on the problem: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5755143

     

     

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