I've never heard from a dev that wanted to make a bad game, unfortunately they end up having to do what old white haired corporate money mongers want, which is whatever gets them more players and makes said game appeal to every human on this planet.
Being acquainted with several CBC (corporate bean-counters), and (personally) with at least one lead developer and a double handful of his seniors, I suggest this is at best a very partial truth (i.e. overstatement, rather than maxim).
The problem with most of these arguments (and we've all heard them, many thousands of times) is their reliance on "gamer shorthand", those handy abbreviated sound-byte declarations that shortcut discussion with "everyone knows", of the type that politicians are so very fond of.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I think the problem is Marketing-driven MMORPG design. Marketing folks take a poll of players and get back stuff like "we want more story", "I want my actions to impact the whole world", "I want to be the hero", etc... And when players get that, many of them hate it.
Devs need to follow the MMORPG "vision" and that is "world".
I've never been polled by any marketer (except possibly here, viral marketers?) about an mmo. Designers haven't ever worked that way, anywhere, to my knowledge.
But I don't know, maybe somewhere? Guys?
A truth, or ForumTruth?
I was invited into such poll about ArcheAge 10 minutes ago.
Ooh, cool, and I'm not even remotely a player. Think I'll go muck with their data collection.
Sweet, no code required
I am sorry, nothing against game or company, just poor methodology always makes me twitch. Hopefully they won't be opening any African data centers as result.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Nope it's the players fault, and the markets fault.
Players are at fault
1. base your expectations on what features on what an mmo should contain based off what a game you played for 5 to 10 years had when it went tits up. Don't think about how many expansions, and updates aforementioned game had in it's time span, just hold the next game accountable to somehow have 5-10 years of content at launch.
2. Gamer's expectations are stupid. Take any game, mix the best features from every game you've ever played, and expect the one game coming out to incorporate all of them.
3. Gamer's are as unified as the panel on any Jerry Springer episode. They can all agree that a game sucks, and they are united as hell voicing their complaints with other's that are complaining about other features. Now, ask that same unified group what the game needs, and they are torn apart instantly(sandbox features, more themepark features, less PvP, more PvP and on and on). The only thing gamer's will agree on, is publisher hate, but ask about a specific gameplay mechanic, or game feature, and they are instantly on opposite sides. What can a developer do when they have any given 100 gamers, all wanting 100 different things.
4. Complaining about games, is the new trendy hip thing to do. It's more important for jackwads to spend their days hating a game(lets say guildwars 2) rather than playing another game. I don't like GW2, but I don't post about it, cause I don't f****** play it.(that and I'm a FPS guy-planetside/star citizen type stuff). I don't post "GW2 would be so much better if it was in first person, and came with rifles". Doesn't stop a lot of people from posting their stupid "what this game needs" cries.
Market
There is a ton of options, why limit your self to one game that your done with.
Why should anyone stick with a game for more than six months, there is a completely new game always coming out, with all brand new stuff to check out. You could probably try a new online game every day for the next year, why stick with any of them. Why wait for SWTOR to add a new planet, when there will be another game thats 100% new to you. Why stick with GW2 waiting on the next micro update, when there is more games in the same genre always coming out with different stuff to check out. Why keep playing planetside 2 when you can try out defiance, or any of the other shooter mmo's?
Basically, why wait for a little content update, when you can jump ship to another game, and get a 100% brand new experience.
The only thing keeping some games like WoW with the same numbers, is the community grew familiar with each other. it's the social familiarity that keeps those people there.
Is the OP really suggesting that gamers MMO addictions are causing games to fail.
How many MMOs are derivative of WoW and it's mechanics?
There is a hundred different reasons that alot of MMOs fail. Having alot of decisions made by a board and shareholders, is probably another reason some MMOs aren't successful.
Developers are absolutely the problem, as are the publishers. Game after game after game is a failure. The players can easily explain why. Here's a few I can name off the top of my head:
1. Lack of endgame
2. Shitty UI
3. Not enough class/race diversity
4. Generic formula
They're like lemmings - they just keep jumping off the cliff. It's sad, because people's jobs and legacies are at risk. And it's all because they're under this delusion that will have anywhere near the success that Blizzard has. You'd think after the first seven failures, they'd realize they either need more time/money or should have just made a different kind of game. They make assumptions, like the IP will carry the title. It won't and in the process, you've tarnished the IP. This happened with LoTRO, SWTOR and will happen with TESO.
I understand where the developers/publishers are coming from. "Our game has X feature - WoW had X feature." Well, that's fine. But WoW also features Y and Z. They don't get it. They don't get that you can't release a game with no or few raids. You can't release a game with gender locked classes or no character customization. You can't release a game with promises you'll add something 6 months down the road. You won't and your game will die. Then you'll be packing your boxes and be onto the next crappy game that makes the same mistakes. You above all can't release a game, call it a roleplaying game and then lack basic character customization or developer. Have some common sense. Your development cycle is too costly? Then change your goddamn business model. Do not have the hubris to release a game with a subscription fee. This isn't 2000. This isn't 2004. Make it buy to play/free to play if you want any measure of success.
I apologize if this comes off bitter, but it's true. It's a vicious cycle. Player's aren't the problem here. We know what we want and we're voting with our dollars. If for a moment I don't enjoy your game, I'm not playing it. Developers need to internalize that idiom because that's what's happening.
All customers should be merciless with these companies, maybe then they'll listen to us and give us something worth playing. Personally, I'm happy to see the outright hostility that's greeting TESO. Just stop. Stop shoving crap games out and take one bloody second to think. Is this fun? If you see forums outraged, maybe you should change something.
As a gamerI've noticed this trend to more mediocre MMO's .
Anecdote isn't premise.
But if you begin with this anecdote, without jumping directly to the conclusion in the very next sentence, we're willing to entertain the conversation, fair enough?
Anecdote : 1. a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature.
2. a short, obscure historical or biographical account.
I believe it applies as a biographical account , which it clearly states. Then it launches to a personal opinion. Which is what the thread clearly asks for. I proceed to justify my beliefs. You are now welcome to discuss my opinion . It may not follow a format that you appreciate . But hey, it's the internet . During the day between tasks, this is what I do.
Now, I found your post insolent and condescending. You presume much and it's not appreciated.
I agree never been so many mediocre mmo's on market .. but at same time never been so many good games. All in all situation is better then in past when there was game A and B. And nothing more.
I would say the problem is with publisher who consistently have completely unrealistic expectations. They simply don't realize that WoW's success was a fluke that will most likely never happen again in the genre.
Developers are fine. We currently have a fantastic number of really stellar MMORPGs to play, more than at any other point in the past ten years. There are plenty of haters here on the forum, but Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, Rift, Age of Conan, Lord of the Rings Online, Wizard101, Aion, Eve Online, and even World of Warcraft are all fantastic games, and I've certainly left out many more.
Publisher need to stop shooting for World of Warcraft success and instead aim for Eve Online style growth.
as a self reflected person I love to think a lot and to play around with numbers. For quite a few years, tons of topics show up stating that most of todays MMOs are mediocre at best and that the developers did not offer enough content. Please, do not misunderstand me. I love gaming and MMOs, but I believe that it is important to have at least some sort of balance. Not only work life balance. An overall balance helping us to enjoy our life. Enough said, I present you an interesting quotation of an interview with James Ohlen, Senior Creative Director for SWTOR.
A week has got 168 hours. Most people tend to use 33% of that time to sleep (8h per day). After sleeping you take a shower and have a coffe which makes 4% (1hour per day). Driving to work takes roughly 2% (30minutes). Approx 23% of the overall time is work time (25% if you have a 30 minutes lunch break.). Let us be fair and add 1 hour for shopping and other stuff that needs to be handled. Plus 4%. Dinner? We live in a fast living world, so we add up 2% (30minutes). Now, count everything together: That makes 70%.
Taking the numbers of James Ohlen, a player investing ...
... 21 hours (12,5%) (3h per day) per week to play reaches 82,5%
... 40 hours (23%) per week to play reaches 93%
... 80 hours (47%) per week to play reaches 117%
... 120 hours (66%) per week to play reaches 136%
... and we did not count in meeting and socializing with friends, shopping, or doing anything else besides playing an online game.
Now I'm asking you:
What do you think? Are developers and publishers the reason why the last major MMO releases were not accepted by many players, or do certain players due to their way of life cause a lot of rant that leads to public rejection of a game?
No for 90% the gamers are couse of decline and result of mediocre mmo's
All the wiki's walkthroughs and the freeloaders in alpha/beta's help decline of mmo's plus all cheaters, bot's exploiters/hackers do there part on downfall and dumbdown mmo's disaster.
The way an mmo used to be made was to be developed with a years worth of content, and a slower levelling experience, which of course gave the devs more time to create more content.
This day and age of "I want to hit cap in 2 weeks or the games a borefest" means devs create a game with what they think is 6 months of content, but is in reality a month at best, which logically leaves them no time at all to create more content, or anything worth logging back in for.
I could blame the playerbase, or go so far as to blame WoW for creating a generation of instant gratification within the MMO community, dumbing down of game systems and taking away all challenge or lifespan a game used to have, but at the end of the day it is the devs that listen to that playerbase, and in turn it is the devs that sink to that level to make a quick buck.
The way an mmo used to be made was to be developed with a years worth of content, and a slower levelling experience, which of course gave the devs more time to create more content.
This day and age of "I want to hit cap in 2 weeks or the games a borefest" means devs create a game with what they think is 6 months of content, but is in reality a month at best, which logically leaves them no time at all to create more content, or anything worth logging back in for.
I could blame the playerbase, or go so far as to blame WoW for creating a generation of instant gratification within the MMO community, dumbing down of game systems and taking away all challenge or lifespan a game used to have, but at the end of the day it is the devs that listen to that playerbase, and in turn it is the devs that sink to that level to make a quick buck.
Funny comments, DEVS have very little say I know this because I been a DEV for many years, publishers have almost all the say our boss's have almost all the say, so I find it funny when most gamers have no clue what it takes to make a game, and they bash DEVS, I was a gamer and still i'm, and went on the other side of things because I didn't know now I see the problem, it is the publishers and Gamer's, Gamer's need to stop buying and Publishers will wake up ....
Gamers whine when a game is to hard look at TSW, any game that takes time players whine, and whine, we get more complaints about games that take more than a month to max out... So these comments are funny I wish some of you gamers would make a game just one and see what we see... Just once.. No clue...
Then indie's , make something that takes a long time and its to long, make up your mind... My favorite game of all time is Asheron call 1, I plan to make something on a smaller scale like it, but not for the players, but because I like it because I get tired of them blaming DEVS when they need to look in the mirror, STOP BUYING THESE GAMES!!!! then Publishers will understand, they like fast cash...... Our boss's listen to them NOT us, we just do the work!!! Get a clue before you bash DEVS..
Most games do not have any community design built into them,auto grouping then disbands when dungeon is done,auto loot so nobody sets u pa group with a purpose.Solo design eliminates need for any guild or friends.Just really bad,cheap game design.
Then we have missing components,most are simple linear questing leading directly to some boring end game,so neither the ride was fun nor is the result.Exploration,they try to make uneventful exploring relevant by attaching AA's to it.Rewards in games are pathetic,they try to excite players by giving them very easy rewards for doing literally nothing,basically pampering players to play their game.That leads to yet another problem,hand holding is the MAIN design approach ,you literally have the game play itself,shows you were to go,how to get there,where the hidden objects are"not so hidden then are they".
Then we have the story telling,how on earth can you properly display a story in a 3D video game using static art?It looks ugly and does nothing for immersion and even worse is in these ugly cut scenes your player is not even in them.
Speaking of immersion,you do NEED quality texture work and definition in models otherwise you might as well display a MUD game.
So yes 100% most definitely ,it has nothing to do with time spent or the gamer's,well perhaps the gamer's are at fault for supporting this poor quality in game design.
The problem can stem even further into COST.I have seen some incredibly lame numbers posted around on development cost,that simply do not show themselves in the game's quality.So we have some developers that are really bad at wasting money and achieving nothing with it.Blizzard is imo one of those devs that waste a lot of money.Look no further than Titan,how well was this project thought out ,if they have to scrap it ?
It is not looking too good right now,devs are either incompetent or lack funds or waste funds or can't think for themselves so just copy other games.This is going to be a tough cycle to get out of and bring back some smart creative minds/producers/developers.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Most games do not have any community design built into them,auto grouping then disbands when dungeon is done,auto loot so nobody sets u pa group with a purpose.Solo design eliminates need for any guild or friends.Just really bad,cheap game design.
Then we have missing components,most are simple linear questing leading directly to some boring end game,so neither the ride was fun nor is the result.Exploration,they try to make uneventful exploring relevant by attaching AA's to it.Rewards in games are pathetic,they try to excite players by giving them very easy rewards for doing literally nothing,basically pampering players to play their game.That leads to yet another problem,hand holding is the MAIN design approach ,you literally have the game play itself,shows you were to go,how to get there,where the hidden objects are"not so hidden then are they".
Then we have the story telling,how on earth can you properly display a story in a 3D video game using static art?It looks ugly and does nothing for immersion and even worse is in these ugly cut scenes your player is not even in them.
Speaking of immersion,you do NEED quality texture work and definition in models otherwise you might as well display a MUD game.
So yes 100% most definitely ,it has nothing to do with time spent or the gamer's,well perhaps the gamer's are at fault for supporting this poor quality in game design.
The problem can stem even further into COST.I have seen some incredibly lame numbers posted around on development cost,that simply do not show themselves in the game's quality.So we have some developers that are really bad at wasting money and achieving nothing with it.Blizzard is imo one of those devs that waste a lot of money.Look no further than Titan,how well was this project thought out ,if they have to scrap it ?
It is not looking too good right now,devs are either incompetent or lack funds or waste funds or can't think for themselves so just copy other games.This is going to be a tough cycle to get out of and bring back some smart creative minds/producers/developers.
Once again this has to do with feed back in games, people whine about some of this stuff , players who like the game don't comment, which they need to start, also gamers today do horrible testing, and then complain later, DEVS can only test so many different computers, so they use Open testing, closed testing, you know how many times, I sat there and watch players say , just tell the devs the game is good so they release it, funny stuff to watch.
I went into Game Production thinking it has to be the DEVS, now I know the truth... Its US... The Gamers and Publishers.. Period.
The way an mmo used to be made was to be developed with a years worth of content, and a slower levelling experience, which of course gave the devs more time to create more content.
This day and age of "I want to hit cap in 2 weeks or the games a borefest" means devs create a game with what they think is 6 months of content, but is in reality a month at best, which logically leaves them no time at all to create more content, or anything worth logging back in for.
I could blame the playerbase, or go so far as to blame WoW for creating a generation of instant gratification within the MMO community, dumbing down of game systems and taking away all challenge or lifespan a game used to have, but at the end of the day it is the devs that listen to that playerbase, and in turn it is the devs that sink to that level to make a quick buck.
Funny comments, DEVS have very little say I know this because I been a DEV for many years, publishers have almost all the say our boss's have almost all the say, so I find it funny when most gamers have no clue what it takes to make a game, and they bash DEVS, I was a gamer and still i'm, and went on the other side of things because I didn't know now I see the problem, it is the publishers and Gamer's, Gamer's need to stop buying and Publishers will wake up ....
Gamers whine when a game is to hard look at TSW, any game that takes time players whine, and whine, we get more complaints about games that take more than a month to max out... So these comments are funny I wish some of you gamers would make a game just one and see what we see... Just once.. No clue...
Then indie's , make something that takes a long time and its to long, make up your mind... My favorite game of all time is Asheron call 1, I plan to make something on a smaller scale like it, but not for the players, but because I like it because I get tired of them blaming DEVS when they need to look in the mirror, STOP BUYING THESE GAMES!!!! then Publishers will understand, they like fast cash...... Our boss's listen to them NOT us, we just do the work!!! Get a clue before you bash DEVS..
Devs, publishers, either way, Crying easy mode kids cry, publishers want changes, devs make it happen, it is a chain of stupidity that all started in one place.
As for not buying into these games, well I have a simple answer for that, direct your attention elsewhere, the last game I bought by a western publisher was SWTOR, then I spent my money on a Korean SSN and started playing games that have some depth left in them.
End of the day it is publishers/devs that fold for the whiners, as for them being two separate entities.... Just because they go under two different names, if the studio is OWNED by the publisher, then they are one in the same.
Where I reflected myself to? Well, I am a MMORPG fan for over 13 years. I read James Ohlens interview and simply saw some parallels. In Dark Age of Camelot, EvE Online and several other MMOs I used to play similar amounts of time. 4-6 hours per day, on weekends peaking at 12 hours. Today, being a 33 years old man with a cool job and a woman at my side, these numbers sound incredible to me, but I understand that it is easily possible.
I am simply wondering how players manage to play a game for 40 and up to 120 hours a week while continuously bashing the game on different forums after maxing out their level. You see, if you invest that much time in a game, you certainly do like the game. If not, you would not have invested that much time. So, the question arises where exactly the problems begin. Taking for example games like SWTOR or Guild Wars 2. Both are of very high quality. Please don't understand naming these games and stating that they are of high quality as fanboism. I played both games and I simply wasn't hooked. Still, these games are very good and they offered me a lot of fun for some time.
I have got a very own idea on the topic. Players expectations versus players personal needs versus players complaints create a misty idea that developers try to read in order to create the utopia of a game marketers try to sell. In all of this players rush through games having forgotten that they actually play a game that is meant to deliver fun, but that suddenly stops to be fun, because developers answered to the marketers saying, that more money could be made if the game was better aligned to a certain target audience - to everyone! However, the answer to what the target audience wants is gathered by the audience itself. And there you have it. Some sort of vicious circle that seems only to be able to be broken out, if developers stop listening to the players and start creating their vision of a great MMO.
Originally posted by bcbully No it's the players who are willing to buy reskinned old ideas over and over. New message same game. I'm talking about you RIFT, SWTOR, TSW, GW2, Wildstar. Hopefully Wildstar is the last of the retreads
/Thread.
People keep buying the junk, so the developers keep producing it. Just go to the forums of Wildstar, TESO, ArcheAge, etc and look at the hoopa-ha of retards, trying with all their might, to convince themselves that these games are 'unique' and def not clones.
This isn't just an MMORPG problem either. This problem extends across multiple genres and is even more prevalent in FPS games. **Cough** COD.
It says that the MMO market is a $13 billion (!) dollar market in 2012. Up 21% (!) from 2011. Talk about growing fast and people jumping on board. Now of course this means MMOs are opening up to a new crowd, especially when compared to original Ultima, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, vanilla World of Warcraft, and so forth...
From this it seems to me that "hardcore" MMO-ers might view most of the new crop as mediocre, and it's also no surprise that publishers / developers want a slice of the new MMO pie without taking too many risks (though a lot of capital and development time up front is still required, unless porting over Asian MMOs).
To me the growing market is a good thing, because it means there is more room and sustainability (hopefully) for smaller and different MMOs, for say only a few (ten) thousand players. It's the same as say in the film industry: mainstream grows, then independants grow with it, because there is more room for some riskier ventures.
On a more personal and subjective note, I have recently started playing Darkfall Unholy Wars, and it has a steep learning curve and a hardcore mentality that will certainly not appeal to everyone, casual players or otherwise. But as many have mentioned before, many people have the "everything now" mentality that does not sit well with certain endeavours that take time and patience, and diligence. However, a game like this may be able to exist because the MMO market as a whole is large enough to sustain smaller games, whatever their take on an MMO and associated payment model.
Bigger (market) doesn't mean only more of the same (breadth), but also opportunities for smaller games to thrive (depth).
And there you have it. Some sort of vicious circle that seems only to be able to be broken out, if developers stop listening to the players and start creating their vision of a great MMO.
I thought about it for a little and it makes perfect sense. Players are dumbasses who either have this "everything now" mentality or sit in the past and go the nostalgy route. Sometimes I ask myself it nostalgy is the right route and have to answer "partly" or "no".
Wildstar for example, I don't know why, but it seems like it borrows some of it's centric mechanics right from WoW. It takes own ideas and puts them on top, okay, but they seemingly didn't actually DARE anything. Housing is cool, but it's a pretty safe feature that won't be able to offend anyone (except the people crying PLUGS, but oh well) in itself. They could have gone balls to the wall and allowed housing in the actual freaking game world like some other games did before... But this wouldn't sit with a "AAA" game that aims at getting a million players running around in their worlds because there's the risk of excluding some people from using it.
This is, in my opinion, one of the things the publishers or devs, whoever is responsible, will always be afraid of: Creating content that many people won't be able to access. Solution? I'll propose this: create more content that will not be accessible by everyone so you might eventually give everyone his nugget. But that isn't financially viable (publishers, I am looking at you).
The paths in Wildstar are nice and dandy and they KIND OF give you an impression of being unique content. But they will not be, everyone can access it and I would say that it will be the same (except maybe for randomness in a selection of 50 targets or so which aren't different at all) for everyone. Just create another character, ha! They will also probably be thoroughly documented on websites anyway. What would be cool? If caves, for example, would actually randomly be attached into the game world and only be accessible to one guy and his group. But they couldn't stay, as this would, at some point, have all caves "known" and people couldn't get there anymore. I don't know how far the work of a settler can be recognized by other people, but I think the things will frequently break and nobody will know you made or repaired it.
I could lament endlessly on this thing, but it's one huge problem of "high class" MMOs to date. Nothing is expendable, everything will be there a million times if you need it. It's almost like playing a single player game, as the MMO often just phases things out after you've completed them (WoW). If there is actually content that can only be experienced by a few, it's mostly endgame content so only the the few people who grind enough can get to it. I lately created a thread about this. It was about playing the game not from the perspective everyone else does, but from a standpoint that not everyone WANTS to play (here: NPCs). It would probably not be viable for publishers since this is development effort that is not seen by most people playing this game. I would totally play such a role. There are some games which would actually allow going into a role like this (for example, Wurm Online could be one) but it would be boring as all hell as the game doesn't support you being able to do that role sufficiently and many people can't be assed to play in your little thing that resides above the game itself because they either can do it themselves (crafting game) or it's a huge workaround around the game's system (regular game).
Even if Ohlens and Biowares estimate had been correct it would not have helped helped. A game like SWTOR simply has no longevity. When I logged out from SWG for the first time so many years ago I knew I had come home. I wasn't looking for a few weeks or months of gaming before I jumped on the next big thing. I was looking for a long term home and I am sure many have had the same experience with other games.
SWG for all its faults had mechanics that allowed just that. The unique crafting and skill system and later during the NGE chronicles and storyteller not to mention space allowed players to create their own content and it is needed to occupy people while waiting for the next patch because scripted content can never be created at the same rate as gamers are gobbling it up.
SWTOR a one time use disposable game.
I remember talking about SWTOR with my fellow SWG players a few months before launch . I said "I am sure it will be pretty polished and a lot of fun for a month or two but when the quests are all done, what then?"
I remember talking about SWTOR with my fellow SWG players a few months before launch . I said "I am sure it will be pretty polished and a lot of fun for a month or two but when the quests are all done, what then?"
I still believe I was mostly right on that one.
I would be frankly amazed if you ever found an SWG player willing to say otherwise. Natural enemies.
Your best option of finding a differing opinion would be consulting someone who's still playing it and who doesn't frequent message boards. Someone's still playing the damn thing, half a million someones, I guess.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Let's be honest,SWTOR expected they had 3 - 4 months of content for an mmo?? That is exactly the problem with mmo's today.
Older mmo's even those that did not have tons of content, tended to have more social, more sandbox, more virtual world and more of everything else.
The themepark experience is a failure, it manages to hook only a few who reach max level. Those who enjoy raiding non stop for the next shiny, just to raid more for the next shiny.
Besides all that, after the four months what did they plan to do? I don't recall any decent content added to SWTOR that would change the four months figure much.
I remember talking about SWTOR with my fellow SWG players a few months before launch . I said "I am sure it will be pretty polished and a lot of fun for a month or two but when the quests are all done, what then?"
I still believe I was mostly right on that one.
I would be frankly amazed if you ever found an SWG player willing to say otherwise. Natural enemies.
Your best option of finding a differing opinion would be consulting someone who's still playing it and who doesn't frequent message boards. Someone's still playing the damn thing, half a million someones, I guess.
I am playing it right now in order to give it an honest chance but so far it has only comfirmed what I believed. My point is not that all aspects are bad, they aren't, but SWTOR is simply not designed to be played year after year as SWG was.
Comments
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
Being acquainted with several CBC (corporate bean-counters), and (personally) with at least one lead developer and a double handful of his seniors, I suggest this is at best a very partial truth (i.e. overstatement, rather than maxim).
The problem with most of these arguments (and we've all heard them, many thousands of times) is their reliance on "gamer shorthand", those handy abbreviated sound-byte declarations that shortcut discussion with "everyone knows", of the type that politicians are so very fond of.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ooh, cool, and I'm not even remotely a player. Think I'll go muck with their data collection.
Sweet, no code required
I am sorry, nothing against game or company, just poor methodology always makes me twitch. Hopefully they won't be opening any African data centers as result.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
+1
Very good post.
Is the OP really suggesting that gamers MMO addictions are causing games to fail.
How many MMOs are derivative of WoW and it's mechanics?
There is a hundred different reasons that alot of MMOs fail. Having alot of decisions made by a board and shareholders, is probably another reason some MMOs aren't successful.
Developers are absolutely the problem, as are the publishers. Game after game after game is a failure. The players can easily explain why. Here's a few I can name off the top of my head:
1. Lack of endgame
2. Shitty UI
3. Not enough class/race diversity
4. Generic formula
They're like lemmings - they just keep jumping off the cliff. It's sad, because people's jobs and legacies are at risk. And it's all because they're under this delusion that will have anywhere near the success that Blizzard has. You'd think after the first seven failures, they'd realize they either need more time/money or should have just made a different kind of game. They make assumptions, like the IP will carry the title. It won't and in the process, you've tarnished the IP. This happened with LoTRO, SWTOR and will happen with TESO.
I understand where the developers/publishers are coming from. "Our game has X feature - WoW had X feature." Well, that's fine. But WoW also features Y and Z. They don't get it. They don't get that you can't release a game with no or few raids. You can't release a game with gender locked classes or no character customization. You can't release a game with promises you'll add something 6 months down the road. You won't and your game will die. Then you'll be packing your boxes and be onto the next crappy game that makes the same mistakes. You above all can't release a game, call it a roleplaying game and then lack basic character customization or developer. Have some common sense. Your development cycle is too costly? Then change your goddamn business model. Do not have the hubris to release a game with a subscription fee. This isn't 2000. This isn't 2004. Make it buy to play/free to play if you want any measure of success.
I apologize if this comes off bitter, but it's true. It's a vicious cycle. Player's aren't the problem here. We know what we want and we're voting with our dollars. If for a moment I don't enjoy your game, I'm not playing it. Developers need to internalize that idiom because that's what's happening.
All customers should be merciless with these companies, maybe then they'll listen to us and give us something worth playing. Personally, I'm happy to see the outright hostility that's greeting TESO. Just stop. Stop shoving crap games out and take one bloody second to think. Is this fun? If you see forums outraged, maybe you should change something.
Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com
Anecdote : 1. a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature.
2. a short, obscure historical or biographical account.
I believe it applies as a biographical account , which it clearly states. Then it launches to a personal opinion. Which is what the thread clearly asks for. I proceed to justify my beliefs. You are now welcome to discuss my opinion . It may not follow a format that you appreciate . But hey, it's the internet . During the day between tasks, this is what I do.
Now, I found your post insolent and condescending. You presume much and it's not appreciated.
I would say the problem is with publisher who consistently have completely unrealistic expectations. They simply don't realize that WoW's success was a fluke that will most likely never happen again in the genre.
Developers are fine. We currently have a fantastic number of really stellar MMORPGs to play, more than at any other point in the past ten years. There are plenty of haters here on the forum, but Guild Wars 2, The Secret World, Rift, Age of Conan, Lord of the Rings Online, Wizard101, Aion, Eve Online, and even World of Warcraft are all fantastic games, and I've certainly left out many more.
Publisher need to stop shooting for World of Warcraft success and instead aim for Eve Online style growth.
No for 90% the gamers are couse of decline and result of mediocre mmo's
All the wiki's walkthroughs and the freeloaders in alpha/beta's help decline of mmo's plus all cheaters, bot's exploiters/hackers do there part on downfall and dumbdown mmo's disaster.
I personally blame the developers.
The way an mmo used to be made was to be developed with a years worth of content, and a slower levelling experience, which of course gave the devs more time to create more content.
This day and age of "I want to hit cap in 2 weeks or the games a borefest" means devs create a game with what they think is 6 months of content, but is in reality a month at best, which logically leaves them no time at all to create more content, or anything worth logging back in for.
I could blame the playerbase, or go so far as to blame WoW for creating a generation of instant gratification within the MMO community, dumbing down of game systems and taking away all challenge or lifespan a game used to have, but at the end of the day it is the devs that listen to that playerbase, and in turn it is the devs that sink to that level to make a quick buck.
Funny comments, DEVS have very little say I know this because I been a DEV for many years, publishers have almost all the say our boss's have almost all the say, so I find it funny when most gamers have no clue what it takes to make a game, and they bash DEVS, I was a gamer and still i'm, and went on the other side of things because I didn't know now I see the problem, it is the publishers and Gamer's, Gamer's need to stop buying and Publishers will wake up ....
Gamers whine when a game is to hard look at TSW, any game that takes time players whine, and whine, we get more complaints about games that take more than a month to max out... So these comments are funny I wish some of you gamers would make a game just one and see what we see... Just once.. No clue...
Then indie's , make something that takes a long time and its to long, make up your mind... My favorite game of all time is Asheron call 1, I plan to make something on a smaller scale like it, but not for the players, but because I like it because I get tired of them blaming DEVS when they need to look in the mirror, STOP BUYING THESE GAMES!!!! then Publishers will understand, they like fast cash...... Our boss's listen to them NOT us, we just do the work!!! Get a clue before you bash DEVS..
Most games do not have any community design built into them,auto grouping then disbands when dungeon is done,auto loot so nobody sets u pa group with a purpose.Solo design eliminates need for any guild or friends.Just really bad,cheap game design.
Then we have missing components,most are simple linear questing leading directly to some boring end game,so neither the ride was fun nor is the result.Exploration,they try to make uneventful exploring relevant by attaching AA's to it.Rewards in games are pathetic,they try to excite players by giving them very easy rewards for doing literally nothing,basically pampering players to play their game.That leads to yet another problem,hand holding is the MAIN design approach ,you literally have the game play itself,shows you were to go,how to get there,where the hidden objects are"not so hidden then are they".
Then we have the story telling,how on earth can you properly display a story in a 3D video game using static art?It looks ugly and does nothing for immersion and even worse is in these ugly cut scenes your player is not even in them.
Speaking of immersion,you do NEED quality texture work and definition in models otherwise you might as well display a MUD game.
So yes 100% most definitely ,it has nothing to do with time spent or the gamer's,well perhaps the gamer's are at fault for supporting this poor quality in game design.
The problem can stem even further into COST.I have seen some incredibly lame numbers posted around on development cost,that simply do not show themselves in the game's quality.So we have some developers that are really bad at wasting money and achieving nothing with it.Blizzard is imo one of those devs that waste a lot of money.Look no further than Titan,how well was this project thought out ,if they have to scrap it ?
It is not looking too good right now,devs are either incompetent or lack funds or waste funds or can't think for themselves so just copy other games.This is going to be a tough cycle to get out of and bring back some smart creative minds/producers/developers.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Once again this has to do with feed back in games, people whine about some of this stuff , players who like the game don't comment, which they need to start, also gamers today do horrible testing, and then complain later, DEVS can only test so many different computers, so they use Open testing, closed testing, you know how many times, I sat there and watch players say , just tell the devs the game is good so they release it, funny stuff to watch.
I went into Game Production thinking it has to be the DEVS, now I know the truth... Its US... The Gamers and Publishers.. Period.
Devs, publishers, either way, Crying easy mode kids cry, publishers want changes, devs make it happen, it is a chain of stupidity that all started in one place.
As for not buying into these games, well I have a simple answer for that, direct your attention elsewhere, the last game I bought by a western publisher was SWTOR, then I spent my money on a Korean SSN and started playing games that have some depth left in them.
End of the day it is publishers/devs that fold for the whiners, as for them being two separate entities.... Just because they go under two different names, if the studio is OWNED by the publisher, then they are one in the same.
@Rusque:
Where I reflected myself to? Well, I am a MMORPG fan for over 13 years. I read James Ohlens interview and simply saw some parallels. In Dark Age of Camelot, EvE Online and several other MMOs I used to play similar amounts of time. 4-6 hours per day, on weekends peaking at 12 hours. Today, being a 33 years old man with a cool job and a woman at my side, these numbers sound incredible to me, but I understand that it is easily possible.
I am simply wondering how players manage to play a game for 40 and up to 120 hours a week while continuously bashing the game on different forums after maxing out their level. You see, if you invest that much time in a game, you certainly do like the game. If not, you would not have invested that much time. So, the question arises where exactly the problems begin. Taking for example games like SWTOR or Guild Wars 2. Both are of very high quality. Please don't understand naming these games and stating that they are of high quality as fanboism. I played both games and I simply wasn't hooked. Still, these games are very good and they offered me a lot of fun for some time.
I have got a very own idea on the topic. Players expectations versus players personal needs versus players complaints create a misty idea that developers try to read in order to create the utopia of a game marketers try to sell. In all of this players rush through games having forgotten that they actually play a game that is meant to deliver fun, but that suddenly stops to be fun, because developers answered to the marketers saying, that more money could be made if the game was better aligned to a certain target audience - to everyone! However, the answer to what the target audience wants is gathered by the audience itself. And there you have it. Some sort of vicious circle that seems only to be able to be broken out, if developers stop listening to the players and start creating their vision of a great MMO.
I think william0532 gave a good explanation on the problem: http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5755143
archage isnt a clone
I had a quick look for some data, and found this interesting link:
http://infographicsmania.com/2012-mmo-games-market-report/
It says that the MMO market is a $13 billion (!) dollar market in 2012. Up 21% (!) from 2011. Talk about growing fast and people jumping on board. Now of course this means MMOs are opening up to a new crowd, especially when compared to original Ultima, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies, vanilla World of Warcraft, and so forth...
From this it seems to me that "hardcore" MMO-ers might view most of the new crop as mediocre, and it's also no surprise that publishers / developers want a slice of the new MMO pie without taking too many risks (though a lot of capital and development time up front is still required, unless porting over Asian MMOs).
To me the growing market is a good thing, because it means there is more room and sustainability (hopefully) for smaller and different MMOs, for say only a few (ten) thousand players. It's the same as say in the film industry: mainstream grows, then independants grow with it, because there is more room for some riskier ventures.
On a more personal and subjective note, I have recently started playing Darkfall Unholy Wars, and it has a steep learning curve and a hardcore mentality that will certainly not appeal to everyone, casual players or otherwise. But as many have mentioned before, many people have the "everything now" mentality that does not sit well with certain endeavours that take time and patience, and diligence. However, a game like this may be able to exist because the MMO market as a whole is large enough to sustain smaller games, whatever their take on an MMO and associated payment model.
Bigger (market) doesn't mean only more of the same (breadth), but also opportunities for smaller games to thrive (depth).
I thought about it for a little and it makes perfect sense. Players are dumbasses who either have this "everything now" mentality or sit in the past and go the nostalgy route. Sometimes I ask myself it nostalgy is the right route and have to answer "partly" or "no".
Wildstar for example, I don't know why, but it seems like it borrows some of it's centric mechanics right from WoW. It takes own ideas and puts them on top, okay, but they seemingly didn't actually DARE anything. Housing is cool, but it's a pretty safe feature that won't be able to offend anyone (except the people crying PLUGS, but oh well) in itself. They could have gone balls to the wall and allowed housing in the actual freaking game world like some other games did before... But this wouldn't sit with a "AAA" game that aims at getting a million players running around in their worlds because there's the risk of excluding some people from using it.
This is, in my opinion, one of the things the publishers or devs, whoever is responsible, will always be afraid of: Creating content that many people won't be able to access. Solution? I'll propose this: create more content that will not be accessible by everyone so you might eventually give everyone his nugget. But that isn't financially viable (publishers, I am looking at you).
The paths in Wildstar are nice and dandy and they KIND OF give you an impression of being unique content. But they will not be, everyone can access it and I would say that it will be the same (except maybe for randomness in a selection of 50 targets or so which aren't different at all) for everyone. Just create another character, ha! They will also probably be thoroughly documented on websites anyway. What would be cool? If caves, for example, would actually randomly be attached into the game world and only be accessible to one guy and his group. But they couldn't stay, as this would, at some point, have all caves "known" and people couldn't get there anymore. I don't know how far the work of a settler can be recognized by other people, but I think the things will frequently break and nobody will know you made or repaired it.
I could lament endlessly on this thing, but it's one huge problem of "high class" MMOs to date. Nothing is expendable, everything will be there a million times if you need it. It's almost like playing a single player game, as the MMO often just phases things out after you've completed them (WoW). If there is actually content that can only be experienced by a few, it's mostly endgame content so only the the few people who grind enough can get to it. I lately created a thread about this. It was about playing the game not from the perspective everyone else does, but from a standpoint that not everyone WANTS to play (here: NPCs). It would probably not be viable for publishers since this is development effort that is not seen by most people playing this game. I would totally play such a role. There are some games which would actually allow going into a role like this (for example, Wurm Online could be one) but it would be boring as all hell as the game doesn't support you being able to do that role sufficiently and many people can't be assed to play in your little thing that resides above the game itself because they either can do it themselves (crafting game) or it's a huge workaround around the game's system (regular game).
Even if Ohlens and Biowares estimate had been correct it would not have helped helped. A game like SWTOR simply has no longevity. When I logged out from SWG for the first time so many years ago I knew I had come home. I wasn't looking for a few weeks or months of gaming before I jumped on the next big thing. I was looking for a long term home and I am sure many have had the same experience with other games.
SWG for all its faults had mechanics that allowed just that. The unique crafting and skill system and later during the NGE chronicles and storyteller not to mention space allowed players to create their own content and it is needed to occupy people while waiting for the next patch because scripted content can never be created at the same rate as gamers are gobbling it up.
SWTOR a one time use disposable game.
I remember talking about SWTOR with my fellow SWG players a few months before launch . I said "I am sure it will be pretty polished and a lot of fun for a month or two but when the quests are all done, what then?"
I still believe I was mostly right on that one.
I would be frankly amazed if you ever found an SWG player willing to say otherwise. Natural enemies.
Your best option of finding a differing opinion would be consulting someone who's still playing it and who doesn't frequent message boards. Someone's still playing the damn thing, half a million someones, I guess.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Older mmo's even those that did not have tons of content, tended to have more social, more sandbox, more virtual world and more of everything else.
The themepark experience is a failure, it manages to hook only a few who reach max level. Those who enjoy raiding non stop for the next shiny, just to raid more for the next shiny.
Besides all that, after the four months what did they plan to do? I don't recall any decent content added to SWTOR that would change the four months figure much.
I am playing it right now in order to give it an honest chance but so far it has only comfirmed what I believed. My point is not that all aspects are bad, they aren't, but SWTOR is simply not designed to be played year after year as SWG was.