It is a game designer's job to find what works for the "majority audience" and fill that need. That is marketing 101. But if these same game designers have no way of knowing what the majority wants, because most of us are "settling" with what is out there, they will have no way to know how to create that next great MMORPG that knocks our virtual socks off.
It's possible that the One True Game won't ever happen, because we want 10 million different 'perfect game' list-of-features?
That's an awful lot of dart board bullseyes to hit.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I Am currently playing 1 MMORPG. Although F2P and heavy steeped in using the cash shop to stay competitive (Although I do not as I am not that into PvP)...it's the only one I found that keeps me interested. And most of that is due to it having a decent community, which is something most now are sparce in having.
Just gonna leave it there because there is no point in continuing the same tired argument any further. Much as VR has said...I'll just continue to wait and see if someone brings out a MMORPG that has open world, epic quests, grouping content, and brings back the journey being important and not the destination. Hopefully EQ Next will bring that....but not holding my breath either....after all...this is SOE we are talking about.
My only fear is if it indeed meets that criteria...the masses don't get it shifted the other way with excessive whine. But again...this is SOE we are talking about. If that happened...all hope is lost and it WILL be one hobby abandoned.
And I don't disagree with you on what makes a good MMO. Hell, my version of a great MMO was Shadowbane and that didn't exactly have mass appeal. This is just an argument about perceptions, nostalgia and the vagaries of "truth". No hard feelings were meant.
And if someone releases an open world, epic quests, grouping content and bring back the journey being important AND CITY BUILDING AND POLITICS.... well, I'll be right there with you on opening day.
Cheers.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
But you guys have become the classic forum warrior who are here to try to point out flaws in disgruntle, dissatisfied or whatever. But you guys ALSO always have the option to find something else to do with your time than try to show the disillusioned, delusional, disgruntled or whatever you thinks going on the light.
That's something I find curious and humorous too. With some of these guys ridiculous post counts...seems most time is spent here rather than in these games so vehemently defended.
That's something I find curious and humorous too. With some of these guys ridiculous post counts...seems most time is spent here rather than in these games so vehemently defended.
Wait, was that a reverse argumentum ad numerum? Bravo!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
But you guys have become the classic forum warrior who are here to try to point out flaws in disgruntle, dissatisfied or whatever. But you guys ALSO always have the option to find something else to do with your time than try to show the disillusioned, delusional, disgruntled or whatever you thinks going on the light.
That's something I find curious and humorous too. With some of these guys ridiculous post counts...seems most time is spent here rather than in these games so vehemently defended.
Ahhh, just when I thought you were a decent guy....
Way to stay classy: Don't like someone arguments, go for the personal attacks....
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
At a certain point if you want change you have to reject the industry. Gaming in general or even just entertainment in general has become corrupted. The dream has been snatched from dreamers and pushed into corporate formulated cash cows.
Classic gamer rhetoric, really.
All right, joo win (?)
It's actually truth. You claim it as rhetoric because it goes against what you like and you are apparently happy with the current trend of the MMORPG genre.
"Truth" is a pretty subjective thing when it comes to likes/dislikes. May be "truth" to you but not to many of us.
I see it as 2 types that are fine with how far off the path the MMORPG genre has gone.
1) Those that came in with the mass media marketing of WoW from other genres and don't really know what made them what they were prior to nor care. Or..
2) Old school gamers that want to try and hold onto MMORPG gaming, but don't have the time, or want to dedicate the time needed to play them as they were meant to be played...so have no issue with them de-evolving into console style games to meet their own needs.
Meant to be played? Pray tell in what manual or holy book of gaming does it state how an MMO is supposed to be played? Ohhh, you mean play it like "YOU" like.... gotcha!
All you have to do is look at the history of the MMORPG industry and the gigantic influx of companies trying to make their mark simply due to WoW's huge success of mainstreaming the genre. It's nothing but a quick cash grab now more than making a quality product fans can enjoy for years on end. No more passion put into their games.
Again, your opinion as many people are happy with the game they currently play.
This here is a prime example of the jaded vet syndrome: "Everything was better back in the day!" "Today's players don't have the right mind set and don't know how to play games right!!! "
Sadly, if this is how you feel about the genre, maybe it is time to find a new hobby?
Lol, and your the classic case of the personal critical of the person critical of the gaming industry.
I don't think the good old days were better in terms what it was or I'd still be playing those same games. Things were better in a sense that there was more creatively and freedom with what we could play. Though some of it is because budget cost cause developers to be less risky and another is because some genre didn't exist. Some genre are tired and dead.
But I do other things besides spending endless hours in MMORPG's because they're largely generic and I don't even have the time anymore nor would want to spend endless hours on a game. But as I said before I'll wait on the sidelines until there is a game that's really worth my investment and I will occasionally talk about it on forums. If that borthers you maybe you should find a new hobby as well?
And you are a classic of reading comprehension fail and not reading an entire thread. I could care less if people are critical of the gaming/MMO industry. It affects me not one iota and does not diminish my enjoyment of the hobby one bit. My original post was meant to explain why people feel the old days were better and how insidious nostalgia can be when it comes to memory. My reply to the previous poster was offering some advice that he may be happier moving on if he doesn't "like" the hobby anymore. It was honest friendly advice but I could give a flying f if he takes it or not.
Let me end with the classic "And you are a classic case of personal critic of the personal critic of the personal critic of the gaming industry." See how silly that is?
It was meant to sound silly. Its what happens when you start trying to be demean people's opinions even if you don't agree. Or break an issue down to select statements and reply with zingers to prove a point of superior ground in the discussion. As it does seem to bother people to see these arguments by some of the responses.
There is something to be said of getting a new hobby. This isn't a one way it can be done genre where things have to stay the same. But I know myself personally will just stand on the edge of the pool and wait for what I want. Doesn't take much time to check in to see what's going on.
The thread was meant to discuss what some people feel has been lost in the MMORPG genre. Not surprising what's going to be in this thread lol.
At a certain point if you want change you have to reject the industry. Gaming in general or even just entertainment in general has become corrupted. The dream has been snatched from dreamers and pushed into corporate formulated cash cows.
Classic gamer rhetoric, really.
All right, joo win (?)
It's actually truth. You claim it as rhetoric because it goes against what you like and you are apparently happy with the current trend of the MMORPG genre.
"Truth" is a pretty subjective thing when it comes to likes/dislikes. May be "truth" to you but not to many of us.
I see it as 2 types that are fine with how far off the path the MMORPG genre has gone.
1) Those that came in with the mass media marketing of WoW from other genres and don't really know what made them what they were prior to nor care. Or..
2) Old school gamers that want to try and hold onto MMORPG gaming, but don't have the time, or want to dedicate the time needed to play them as they were meant to be played...so have no issue with them de-evolving into console style games to meet their own needs.
Meant to be played? Pray tell in what manual or holy book of gaming does it state how an MMO is supposed to be played? Ohhh, you mean play it like "YOU" like.... gotcha!
All you have to do is look at the history of the MMORPG industry and the gigantic influx of companies trying to make their mark simply due to WoW's huge success of mainstreaming the genre. It's nothing but a quick cash grab now more than making a quality product fans can enjoy for years on end. No more passion put into their games.
Again, your opinion as many people are happy with the game they currently play.
This here is a prime example of the jaded vet syndrome: "Everything was better back in the day!" "Today's players don't have the right mind set and don't know how to play games right!!! "
Sadly, if this is how you feel about the genre, maybe it is time to find a new hobby?
Lol, and your the classic case of the personal critical of the person critical of the gaming industry.
I don't think the good old days were better in terms what it was or I'd still be playing those same games. Things were better in a sense that there was more creatively and freedom with what we could play. Though some of it is because budget cost cause developers to be less risky and another is because some genre didn't exist. Some genre are tired and dead.
But I do other things besides spending endless hours in MMORPG's because they're largely generic and I don't even have the time anymore nor would want to spend endless hours on a game. But as I said before I'll wait on the sidelines until there is a game that's really worth my investment and I will occasionally talk about it on forums. If that borthers you maybe you should find a new hobby as well?
And you are a classic of reading comprehension fail and not reading an entire thread. I could care less if people are critical of the gaming/MMO industry. It affects me not one iota and does not diminish my enjoyment of the hobby one bit. My original post was meant to explain why people feel the old days were better and how insidious nostalgia can be when it comes to memory. My reply to the previous poster was offering some advice that he may be happier moving on if he doesn't "like" the hobby anymore. It was honest friendly advice but I could give a flying f if he takes it or not.
Let me end with the classic "And you are a classic case of personal critic of the personal critic of the personal critic of the gaming industry." See how silly that is?
It was meant to sound silly. Its what happens when you start trying to be demean people's opinions even if you don't agree. Or break an issue down to select statements and reply with zingers to prove a point of superior ground in the discussion. As it does seem to bother people to see these arguments by some of the responses.
There is something to be said of getting a new hobby. This isn't a one way it can be done genre where things have to stay the same. But I know myself personally will just stand on the edge of the pool and wait for what I want. Doesn't take much time to check in to see what's going on.
The thread was meant to discuss what some people feel has been lost in the MMORPG genre. Not surprising what's going to be in this thread lol.
No one has tried to demean anyone's opinions but you. It was a relatively friendly discussion on nostalgia and people who clamor for games form their past. Of course you know this but just want to stir the pot. So I refuse to engage you in any further discussions. Cheers!
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
I am going to try and make this comment constructive. Can you make a tl;dr section for your tl;dr section? This is a very opposing wall and it only is made worse knowing the tl;dr section is still a wall.
GW2 has great customization (just insane really with every weapon having its own skill set etc), but awful crafting economy (because there is one AH for whole game, all the servers, meaning you can never earn anything on your crafts because a gazillion of players all over the world can do the same). It also has no World PVP but reasonably fun huge-scale instanced pvp (its an instance specifically made for PVP but its a size of several normal game zones). GW2 also has that "wanderlust" aspect you're looking for - jumping puzzles, secret nooks and crannies, all that is awesome. Unfortunately, it doesn't have much to do at endgame, because even though you can get downleveled and go to lowlevel zones, mobs there are too easy after you experience level cap mobs. And no WPVP - no danger.
I don't really know about anything else. I guess you should not be against paying for a game (really, you can try before you buy, and if you like it, would you be unable to pay ~$50?) especially because you're looking for a quality product and quality product should cost money, no?
But you guys have become the classic forum warrior who are here to try to point out flaws in disgruntle, dissatisfied or whatever. But you guys ALSO always have the option to find something else to do with your time than try to show the disillusioned, delusional, disgruntled or whatever you thinks going on the light.
That's something I find curious and humorous too. With some of these guys ridiculous post counts...seems most time is spent here rather than in these games so vehemently defended.
Ahhh, just when I thought you were a decent guy....
Way to stay classy: Don't like someone arguments, go for the personal attacks....
Not an attack...just observation. Most that he speaks of have thousands of posts. Of course though...this is also dependant on the posters time on the site I suppose. But the ones I see most like what VR describes have 3k+ in posts...and always the same 5 or 6 people...you not included.
I think we have gotten past what the OP was trying to say. I believe his/her point was that the current MMORPG's are taking shortcuts via instancing and fetch quests. They are hand-holding their subscribers as to not scare them away. But what initially grabbed MMORPG lovers in the first place, was the simple immersion factor. I think we can all agree that the newer games have a certain lack of player community, far less than our previous MMORPG's.
Is it a crime to find like-minds in a MMORPG forum? Maybe that next great game designer will read this forum post and think that these are great points. Obviously, if most of the readers/posters of this topic agree with one another, well that is something for the game designers to open their eyes to.
But to say shut up, stop being grumpy, and go play the games already out there, while you over-look the parts you detest, you are not helping the genre.
It is a game designer's job to find what works for the "majority audience" and fill that need. That is marketing 101. But if these same game designers have no way of knowing what the majority wants, because most of us are "settling" with what is out there, they will have no way to know how to create that next great MMORPG that knocks our virtual socks off.
I agree with this.
It's hard to say how much power developers even have in the matter anymore. I think its why you have the kickstarter movements. Not my cup of tea to drop money into something that may never come to be but I can understand the sentiment of it.
I've stopped settling and giving money. Its a start and within my power so it's what I do.
Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.
The first MMO I started with was Lineage (not 2), I stopped after 2 launched. I agree that games aren't made the way they used to be. I have never understood the fascination people had with WoW. I played it for 2 months and thought it was boring. I have played Lineage, EVE, 9Dragson, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, D&D Online, Neverwinter (this game has some serious issues), Defiance (alpha & beta), Conquer Online, Path of Exile, Anarchy Online, Necron and a few others that I am sure that are missing. I have the same problem now, with no game being able to hold my attention for very long. Endless grinding, with gear ending up identical to everyone else's, and nothing left to do. I am not a big fan of PvP, but have come to enjoy some aspects of it.
As for not liking open world PvP like someone else mentioned, in Lineage, if you were more than 10-15 levels lower, the PKers generally left you alone. What would be the excitement or challenge of killing someone who couldn't put up at least a little fight (says something about that person's mentality). I don't have any answers as to getting this fixed any time soon, with a worthwhile game. Until then, I will just play a little bit of a few games and wander around aimlessly.
If I am understanding your posts correctly, you are saying that instead of complaining about the flaws in games, maybe it is better to look at the good things the game has and give a pass to the aspects you do not like. That way, it is better go out and enjoy most of a game, then sit on a forum complaining about something that can never be. Furthermore, just because you don't like some aspects of a game, doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't like it.
I believe that your logic makes a lot of sense. But that we, as a gaming community, shouldn't take that advice. I also do not agree that game developers do not read these forums. I believe that most MMORPG developers are lovers of the game genre that they work in . And to ignore their fans opinions is a grave mistake.
Now, i am not obtuse enough to think that every single complaint or idea thrown out there from these forums can possibly be implemented into one "SUPER MMORPG", but as a fan of MMORPG.com, the same 8 or 10 game mechanics that people ask for are pretty standard in the eyes of most people who post on this forum. I have rarely seen anyone argue against:
1. Less instancing and more open world exploration.
2. Sand-box style housing system that allows the player to build your own plot from the raw materials of the land
3. Sand-box style crafting in the fashion of Housing. But with a +1... chance system.
4. Some sort of open-world PvP system (more of a sore spot for many people) Where every aspect effects your realm.
5. More epic quest-lines, without the repetitive fetch quests.
6. Great lore and story lines
7. Interesting class structure that lets the individual player create their own sub-classes.
8. Frequent content updates.
This is pretty much what the OP stated in the beginning of this post. This is how I feel, and certainly what I see over and over in these forums. Is this realistic? Definitely yes. Game designers can give us all of these things in a good MMORPG, and make a lot of money. I would certainly pay a monthly fee if I could play a game that offers this.
If I am understanding your posts correctly, you are saying that instead of complaining about the flaws in games, maybe it is better to look at the good things the game has and give a pass to the aspects you do not like. That way, it is better go out and enjoy most of a game, then sit on a forum complaining about something that can never be. Furthermore, just because you don't like some aspects of a game, doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't like it.
I believe that your logic makes a lot of sense. But that we, as a gaming community, shouldn't take that advice. I also do not agree that game developers do not read these forums. I believe that most MMORPG developers are lovers of the game genre that they work in . And to ignore their fans opinions is a grave mistake.
Now, i am not obtuse enough to think that every single complaint or idea thrown out there from these forums can possibly be implemented into one "SUPER MMORPG", but as a fan of MMORPG.com, the same 8 or 10 game mechanics that people ask for are pretty standard in the eyes of most people who post on this forum. I have rarely seen anyone argue against:
1. Less instancing and more open world exploration.
2. Sand-box style housing system that allows the player to build your own plot from the raw materials of the land
3. Sand-box style crafting in the fashion of Housing. But with a +1... chance system.
4. Some sort of open-world PvP system (more of a sore spot for many people) Where every aspect effects your realm.
5. More epic quest-lines, without the repetitive fetch quests.
6. Great lore and story lines
7. Interesting class structure that lets the individual player create their own sub-classes.
8. Frequent content updates.
This is pretty much what the OP stated in the beginning of this post. This is how I feel, and certainly what I see over and over in these forums. Is this realistic? Definitely yes. Game designers can give us all of these things in a good MMORPG, and make a lot of money. I would certainly pay a monthly fee if I could play a game that offers this.
I would hardly call that impossible, since parts of it have existed (many times? a few, at least). The op asked for more, I think, in that original novel.
But I'm not sure how many titles have combined all of these features into a single title. 7 (for example) is partially possible, but depending how much you expect...gets a little shaky towards the end of the sentence.
The more you ask for, the harder it's going to be to pass. And the major mistake (to my mind) is setting forth my list of 8 or 10 or 12 features I want to see, while rejecting any game that fails to pass each and every one of them. UO certainly didn't pass each of those gates (certainly not originally), nor did EVE, nor SWG. And those are the "classic sandbox" games.
Every gate you add on makes the target shrink, that much harder to hit, that much more likely you'll be disappointed.
That's all. The kid that wants that one Christmas present will be fine. The kid that's expecting Santa to deliver the entire list will be upset. It's not deep or crazy, just really simple, that we lose (almost daily) in the yackyack forum pvp.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
At a certain point if you want change you have to reject the industry. Gaming in general or even just entertainment in general has become corrupted. The dream has been snatched from dreamers and pushed into corporate formulated cash cows.
Classic gamer rhetoric, really.
All right, joo win (?)
It's actually truth. You claim it as rhetoric because it goes against what you like and you are apparently happy with the current trend of the MMORPG genre.
"Truth" is a pretty subjective thing when it comes to likes/dislikes. May be "truth" to you but not to many of us.
I see it as 2 types that are fine with how far off the path the MMORPG genre has gone.
1) Those that came in with the mass media marketing of WoW from other genres and don't really know what made them what they were prior to nor care. Or..
2) Old school gamers that want to try and hold onto MMORPG gaming, but don't have the time, or want to dedicate the time needed to play them as they were meant to be played...so have no issue with them de-evolving into console style games to meet their own needs.
Meant to be played? Pray tell in what manual or holy book of gaming does it state how an MMO is supposed to be played? Ohhh, you mean play it like "YOU" like.... gotcha!
All you have to do is look at the history of the MMORPG industry and the gigantic influx of companies trying to make their mark simply due to WoW's huge success of mainstreaming the genre. It's nothing but a quick cash grab now more than making a quality product fans can enjoy for years on end. No more passion put into their games.
Again, your opinion as many people are happy with the game they currently play.
This here is a prime example of the jaded vet syndrome: "Everything was better back in the day!" "Today's players don't have the right mind set and don't know how to play games right!!! "
Sadly, if this is how you feel about the genre, maybe it is time to find a new hobby?
This here is a prime example of the modern gamer ASSUMING and defending the theme park treadmill they like because it's all there is.
Did I say anywhere the old way was better? No. Did I say today's gamer's don't know how to play the games right? No. There was plenty that definitely needed upgrading. But there are also PLENTY of elements that defined them as a unique and separate genre from console gaming that have gone extinct in the name of numbers and greed.
It's possible to have those old elements and new combined and make a decent game.
I love how people such as you say I and others should just find a new hobby too. If tables were turned, I would not be telling you the same...and the reason is because I am not selfish and everyone is entitled to their opinion and tastes....and because I had what I wanted en mass, doesn't mean I should tell others they can't hope for something they enjoy, or tell them to leave.
I am absolutely sure if old school MMORPG gamer's invaded console gaming en mass and whined to have them slowed down, more interaction between players, etc, etc and companies listened because they became the majority....long time console players would be up in arms.
Your entire post reads "old time games were better and the ones today suck!" I never told you to find a new hobby. My advice was that if you found today's games so bad, maybe it just means it is time to move on or stick to the old games. just being a realist. Times change and people change. I can't stand today's music so I refuse to buy new albums. I just stick to the oldies. But you don't see me ranting on forums how today's music sucks and music was better back in the day (it was).
Look mate, I was in the same boat. Hated today's games and longed for the days of Shadowbane and EQ. But, I had two choices: Quit the hobby I love or find some tolerable modern MMO and make the best of it. I wend with the second option and continue to enjoy the hobby I love. Simple as that. It's a choice. That was all I was offering you. But please, do not let me derail you from your bitter rants. Carry on.
P.S. If some dev decides to make an updated, modern version of Shadowbane... please e-mail me where I can send you a blank check.
Very good points, I decided to retreat back into a retro version of a game I really enjoyed and along with 10 or so old friends we've decided we pretty much will be staying there, with the occasional forays to sample newer titles if it appears they will be offering something different.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Very good points, I decided to retreat back into a retro version of a game I really enjoyed and along with 10 or so old friends we've decided we pretty much will be staying there, with the occasional forays to sample newer titles if it appears they will be offering something different.
And if you're a social enough animal (as I've always been), the venue matters less than the friends do, anyway.
Enjoy!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I don't see what discussing your ideals of what you want from an MMORPG hurting anything or are unrealistic.
Nope, discuss away. No one can stop you from adopting whatever expectations you have.
But honestly, no one can stop me (or anybody) from pointing out that in combination, the sum of individual expectations can be equivalent to rejecting everything. If you reject the whole market, you have no option at all except grumbling, right?
What to do with your leisure time now?
Well, that is the dilemma. Answer is.. playing other games. Do other real life activities. For me, i was anyway a little bit to addicted to online gaming.
But another truth holds true. That i played some MMOs from time to time, or at least tested them.. and not one could really hold my interest for any decent time.
..
Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Scalpless
ArcheAge, I suppose? Hard to say without playing it, but it seems to promise most of the above. All other games I've played lately lack several of the things you mentioned.
If you decide to make the damn thing yourself, I'll sub.
Yep Archeage is the first game since probably Vanguard to offer everything.It really shows how amazing Vanguard was,it also had that political card game that many found was a nice added touch.
...
Well.. ArcheAge could be interesting. At least i will try it. But there are a few things which i dont like that much.
As example they decided (after CB4) to cut out the item decay system, and with it crafting, and the economy as a whole becomes rather useless. Everyone got everything up to one point, not enough demand for a healthy in game economy.
And you can see the results very well in korea, big deflation at the auction house is going on... just not enough drain of items, or resources in general. But nevertheless.. I will give it a try. But i am not that hopefully anymore. (for my online gaming pleasure)
Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.
The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore.
It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares. You see this quaint 'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts.
Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.
The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore.
It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares. You see this quaint 'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts.
Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.
Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.
The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore.
It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares. You see this quaint 'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts.
Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.
Today's MMOs are more like 99c menus you find at McDonalds and Burger King etc. Eat it in 10 minutes and go watch the game. Gourmet food is all but forgotten.
The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore.
It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares. You see this quaint 'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts.
Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.
Then you order the burger and quickly find out that you need to pay for the toppings, the condiments, what's that you say: you wanted a bun as well? Don't worry they're only $3.99. Oh and keep your eyes away from that table of whales over there in the corner so as not to make your appetite jealous from the sight of their stunning orders. Good deal, eh?
Because you do not "pay a dime" all you'd get is a lonely and boring patty, but it would still be "fun", right? Definitely not my kind of restaurant.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Red, I think that what's happening here is a kind of pass/fail cascade gate error that catches an awful lot of gamers.
Feature list: I want these four things (ABCD). 1000 mmo titles available.
Feature A: 90% of available titles "fail", 10% pass. 1000 titles go in, 100 make it out.
Feature B: 90% of available titles "fail", 10% pass.100 titles go in, 10 make it out.
Feature C: 90% of available titles "fail", 10% pass. 10 titles go in, 1 makes it out.
Feature 90% of available titles "fail", 10% pass. 1 titles go in....uh oh.
"Why isn't anyone making a game to my exacting specifications omg?"
Yep, you're right, but it isn't anything I'm not aware of. Also, I think I've been fair. I haven't just been "preaching defeatism on a forum", as evidenced by both my post count, and the fact that I have tried a lot of these games. Even knowing ahead of time that a lot of them don't meet all my expectations - indeed, often they meet very few - I have given them an honest effort. I've let plenty through my gates, despite their shortcomings. I made it to the level cap in Vanguard and Rift, made it to about 40ish in Aion and TERA, and am still approaching the level cap in Neverwinter, for a few examples. I feel like I've given an honest effort to enjoy these games, but as I said before, something (multiple somethings, usually) always kills it for me.
In truth, I don't expect a game to meet all of my expectations. It would be great if one did, but I really don't expect it. Problem is, all of these games fall short on several of them, which really hampers my enjoyment. For example, Rift falls short on quest-centric focus, pvp and shallow itemization. If it fixed just one of those three things, I might still be able to get a lot of enjoyment out of it. The way it is now, unfortunately, there just isn't really any content for me to enjoy, nor anything to look forward to.
Personally, I'd suggest option 5: stop over-thinking it and writing TLDR novels. Your disease could also be described as "Forumitis".
I do recognize and appreciate what you're saying. However, I've made several honest attempts at not over-thinking things and just enjoying them. It just didn't work. I finally decided to make this thread, reaching out to the community for like-minded players to make our desires - and willingness to pay for them - known.
Also, you've posted 5547 times over a period of about 2 years. I have now posted 13 times over a period of 9 years. So whos' got the "Forumitis"?
Originally posted by jacktors
I think we have gotten past what the OP was trying to say. I believe his/her point was that the current MMORPG's are taking shortcuts via instancing and fetch quests. They are hand-holding their subscribers as to not scare them away. But what initially grabbed MMORPG lovers in the first place, was the simple immersion factor. I think we can all agree that the newer games have a certain lack of player community, far less than our previous MMORPG's.
Is it a crime to find like-minds in a MMORPG forum? Maybe that next great game designer will read this forum post and think that these are great points. Obviously, if most of the readers/posters of this topic agree with one another, well that is something for the game designers to open their eyes to.
But to say shut up, stop being grumpy, and go play the games already out there, while you over-look the parts you detest, you are not helping the genre.
It is a game designer's job to find what works for the "majority audience" and fill that need. That is marketing 101. But if these same game designers have no way of knowing what the majority wants, because most of us are "settling" with what is out there, they will have no way to know how to create that next great MMORPG that knocks our virtual socks off.
This, exactly. I really don't see the harm in a thread such as this. Moreover, while it may not reach any developers directly, it is still far from fruitless to know there are other people out there who are looking for the same things. Maybe it will garner enough attention for one of the contributors to this site to write an article with such a theme in mind.
If I decided to just 'move on to something else', I really must not care about the genre much. I'd much rather at least reach out to the community, voice my thoughts and hear those of others. The worst that can happen is it might create a more organized and consolidated list of desires that aren't being met by current MMOs. That's pretty useful market data, if nothing else. As I said, so many recent MMOs are carbon copying so many of the same design decisions, they all end up just sharing slices of the same pie. If anyone actually decided to take a chance and go outside that design box, they might find quite a respectable monetary benefit in doing so.
I have to go out for a bit, but I'll reply to more later.
Comments
It's possible that the One True Game won't ever happen, because we want 10 million different 'perfect game' list-of-features?
That's an awful lot of dart board bullseyes to hit.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
And I don't disagree with you on what makes a good MMO. Hell, my version of a great MMO was Shadowbane and that didn't exactly have mass appeal. This is just an argument about perceptions, nostalgia and the vagaries of "truth". No hard feelings were meant.
And if someone releases an open world, epic quests, grouping content and bring back the journey being important AND CITY BUILDING AND POLITICS.... well, I'll be right there with you on opening day.
Cheers.
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
That's something I find curious and humorous too. With some of these guys ridiculous post counts...seems most time is spent here rather than in these games so vehemently defended.
Wait, was that a reverse argumentum ad numerum? Bravo!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Ahhh, just when I thought you were a decent guy....
Way to stay classy: Don't like someone arguments, go for the personal attacks....
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
It was meant to sound silly. Its what happens when you start trying to be demean people's opinions even if you don't agree. Or break an issue down to select statements and reply with zingers to prove a point of superior ground in the discussion. As it does seem to bother people to see these arguments by some of the responses.
There is something to be said of getting a new hobby. This isn't a one way it can be done genre where things have to stay the same. But I know myself personally will just stand on the edge of the pool and wait for what I want. Doesn't take much time to check in to see what's going on.
The thread was meant to discuss what some people feel has been lost in the MMORPG genre. Not surprising what's going to be in this thread lol.
No one has tried to demean anyone's opinions but you. It was a relatively friendly discussion on nostalgia and people who clamor for games form their past. Of course you know this but just want to stir the pot. So I refuse to engage you in any further discussions. Cheers!
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true...
Not an attack...just observation. Most that he speaks of have thousands of posts. Of course though...this is also dependant on the posters time on the site I suppose. But the ones I see most like what VR describes have 3k+ in posts...and always the same 5 or 6 people...you not included.
I agree with this.
It's hard to say how much power developers even have in the matter anymore. I think its why you have the kickstarter movements. Not my cup of tea to drop money into something that may never come to be but I can understand the sentiment of it.
I've stopped settling and giving money. Its a start and within my power so it's what I do.
Fast food vs gourmet food.
Game companies think (maybe rightfully so) that most of today's potential players want fast food. They want to eat that cheeseburger real quick and be on their way. Gourmet food takes too much time to prepare and eat, too much hassle. Look at some of the food that used to be gourmet such as WoW. It turned into McDonalds of MMO games.
The first MMO I started with was Lineage (not 2), I stopped after 2 launched. I agree that games aren't made the way they used to be. I have never understood the fascination people had with WoW. I played it for 2 months and thought it was boring. I have played Lineage, EVE, 9Dragson, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, D&D Online, Neverwinter (this game has some serious issues), Defiance (alpha & beta), Conquer Online, Path of Exile, Anarchy Online, Necron and a few others that I am sure that are missing. I have the same problem now, with no game being able to hold my attention for very long. Endless grinding, with gear ending up identical to everyone else's, and nothing left to do. I am not a big fan of PvP, but have come to enjoy some aspects of it.
As for not liking open world PvP like someone else mentioned, in Lineage, if you were more than 10-15 levels lower, the PKers generally left you alone. What would be the excitement or challenge of killing someone who couldn't put up at least a little fight (says something about that person's mentality). I don't have any answers as to getting this fixed any time soon, with a worthwhile game. Until then, I will just play a little bit of a few games and wander around aimlessly.
@Icewhite:
If I am understanding your posts correctly, you are saying that instead of complaining about the flaws in games, maybe it is better to look at the good things the game has and give a pass to the aspects you do not like. That way, it is better go out and enjoy most of a game, then sit on a forum complaining about something that can never be. Furthermore, just because you don't like some aspects of a game, doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't like it.
I believe that your logic makes a lot of sense. But that we, as a gaming community, shouldn't take that advice. I also do not agree that game developers do not read these forums. I believe that most MMORPG developers are lovers of the game genre that they work in . And to ignore their fans opinions is a grave mistake.
Now, i am not obtuse enough to think that every single complaint or idea thrown out there from these forums can possibly be implemented into one "SUPER MMORPG", but as a fan of MMORPG.com, the same 8 or 10 game mechanics that people ask for are pretty standard in the eyes of most people who post on this forum. I have rarely seen anyone argue against:
1. Less instancing and more open world exploration.
2. Sand-box style housing system that allows the player to build your own plot from the raw materials of the land
3. Sand-box style crafting in the fashion of Housing. But with a +1... chance system.
4. Some sort of open-world PvP system (more of a sore spot for many people) Where every aspect effects your realm.
5. More epic quest-lines, without the repetitive fetch quests.
6. Great lore and story lines
7. Interesting class structure that lets the individual player create their own sub-classes.
8. Frequent content updates.
This is pretty much what the OP stated in the beginning of this post. This is how I feel, and certainly what I see over and over in these forums. Is this realistic? Definitely yes. Game designers can give us all of these things in a good MMORPG, and make a lot of money. I would certainly pay a monthly fee if I could play a game that offers this.
actually I'm surprised no-one has pointed out to the OP that Eve Online fits all of the points he makes about what sort of game he likes.
*shrug*
Edit : he didn't specifically mention avatar play
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
I would hardly call that impossible, since parts of it have existed (many times? a few, at least). The op asked for more, I think, in that original novel.
But I'm not sure how many titles have combined all of these features into a single title. 7 (for example) is partially possible, but depending how much you expect...gets a little shaky towards the end of the sentence.
The more you ask for, the harder it's going to be to pass. And the major mistake (to my mind) is setting forth my list of 8 or 10 or 12 features I want to see, while rejecting any game that fails to pass each and every one of them. UO certainly didn't pass each of those gates (certainly not originally), nor did EVE, nor SWG. And those are the "classic sandbox" games.
Every gate you add on makes the target shrink, that much harder to hit, that much more likely you'll be disappointed.
That's all. The kid that wants that one Christmas present will be fine. The kid that's expecting Santa to deliver the entire list will be upset. It's not deep or crazy, just really simple, that we lose (almost daily) in the yackyack forum pvp.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Very good points, I decided to retreat back into a retro version of a game I really enjoyed and along with 10 or so old friends we've decided we pretty much will be staying there, with the occasional forays to sample newer titles if it appears they will be offering something different.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And if you're a social enough animal (as I've always been), the venue matters less than the friends do, anyway.
Enjoy!
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Well, that is the dilemma. Answer is.. playing other games. Do other real life activities. For me, i was anyway a little bit to addicted to online gaming.
But another truth holds true. That i played some MMOs from time to time, or at least tested them.. and not one could really hold my interest for any decent time.
..
Well.. ArcheAge could be interesting. At least i will try it. But there are a few things which i dont like that much.
As example they decided (after CB4) to cut out the item decay system, and with it crafting, and the economy as a whole becomes rather useless. Everyone got everything up to one point, not enough demand for a healthy in game economy.
And you can see the results very well in korea, big deflation at the auction house is going on... just not enough drain of items, or resources in general. But nevertheless.. I will give it a try. But i am not that hopefully anymore. (for my online gaming pleasure)
The problem was that the 'gourmet' food of 'old school' games ended up giving people food poisoning and few people had the stomach to eat there anymore.
It's like watching the US version of Kitchen Nightmares. You see this quaint 'old school' restaurant that seems great but then Ramsey goes into the kitchen and you see that it has a freezer full of old meat and the owners are taking all kinds of horrible shortcuts.
Old classic MMO is more like eating wood and plastic. New modern MMOs are like gourmet food all prepped for you in a restaurant, and they put it on the table the minute you walk in.
Today's MMOs are more like 99c menus you find at McDonalds and Burger King etc. Eat it in 10 minutes and go watch the game. Gourmet food is all but forgotten.
Then you order the burger and quickly find out that you need to pay for the toppings, the condiments, what's that you say: you wanted a bun as well? Don't worry they're only $3.99. Oh and keep your eyes away from that table of whales over there in the corner so as not to make your appetite jealous from the sight of their stunning orders. Good deal, eh?
Because you do not "pay a dime" all you'd get is a lonely and boring patty, but it would still be "fun", right? Definitely not my kind of restaurant.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Yep, you're right, but it isn't anything I'm not aware of. Also, I think I've been fair. I haven't just been "preaching defeatism on a forum", as evidenced by both my post count, and the fact that I have tried a lot of these games. Even knowing ahead of time that a lot of them don't meet all my expectations - indeed, often they meet very few - I have given them an honest effort. I've let plenty through my gates, despite their shortcomings. I made it to the level cap in Vanguard and Rift, made it to about 40ish in Aion and TERA, and am still approaching the level cap in Neverwinter, for a few examples. I feel like I've given an honest effort to enjoy these games, but as I said before, something (multiple somethings, usually) always kills it for me.
In truth, I don't expect a game to meet all of my expectations. It would be great if one did, but I really don't expect it. Problem is, all of these games fall short on several of them, which really hampers my enjoyment. For example, Rift falls short on quest-centric focus, pvp and shallow itemization. If it fixed just one of those three things, I might still be able to get a lot of enjoyment out of it. The way it is now, unfortunately, there just isn't really any content for me to enjoy, nor anything to look forward to.
I do recognize and appreciate what you're saying. However, I've made several honest attempts at not over-thinking things and just enjoying them. It just didn't work. I finally decided to make this thread, reaching out to the community for like-minded players to make our desires - and willingness to pay for them - known.
Also, you've posted 5547 times over a period of about 2 years. I have now posted 13 times over a period of 9 years. So whos' got the "Forumitis"?
This, exactly. I really don't see the harm in a thread such as this. Moreover, while it may not reach any developers directly, it is still far from fruitless to know there are other people out there who are looking for the same things. Maybe it will garner enough attention for one of the contributors to this site to write an article with such a theme in mind.
If I decided to just 'move on to something else', I really must not care about the genre much. I'd much rather at least reach out to the community, voice my thoughts and hear those of others. The worst that can happen is it might create a more organized and consolidated list of desires that aren't being met by current MMOs. That's pretty useful market data, if nothing else. As I said, so many recent MMOs are carbon copying so many of the same design decisions, they all end up just sharing slices of the same pie. If anyone actually decided to take a chance and go outside that design box, they might find quite a respectable monetary benefit in doing so.
I have to go out for a bit, but I'll reply to more later.