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[Column] General: Becoming a F2P Convert

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  • GameByNightGameByNight Columnist / Podcast Host Rochester, NYPosts: 121Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ayulin
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Shill piece
     

    lol...

    Man I wish you could like posts on this site.

     

    That's too bad. See, while I was replying to your original post and thanking you for thinking it out, you come back with a second that even a small amount of thought would have prevented.

     

    I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to discuss their thoughts. Agree or disagree. That's why I do this. Tinfoil hat accusations just seem silly in comparison. 

     
     

    Writer of the RPG Files
    Official Podcast Host
    Blogger at GameByNight.com

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member

    Dude you do know there's no point in your intervention, right? People seem to be either for, against or just don't give a damn about F2P and I highly disagree with your assessment that a sub optional F2P system will be what works in the western market. More likely than not what will work in the MMO western market is what has worked for LoL for so long (cosmetics and grind reduction aids), there are games who try to nickel and dime players regardless of its payment plan but real, long term games from within the F2P system will be fair and not sell power (I'd even go so far as to say sandbox F2P MMOs in EVE-Online's model of sandboxes could work really well because on a 1vs1 level yes it could give an advantage to the paying player in terms of raw power level if the two players dueling have spent the exact same amount of time in-game but on a clan level the advantages would be negated by the clan itself painting a bigger target on its arse because in EVE type games anyone that isn't a friend and is growing more powerful is a priority target).

     

    The idea of perceived value is so prevalent in the minds of the old guard that most would rather pay to play a game like World of Warcraft instead of trying a game such as Forsaken World though the two games are pretty much the same thing in terms of gameplay with Forsaken World having a very grindy path to get everything you need for free endgame but hey you could always play for the 2-3 months it takes to get to level cap in that game casually and then decide if it is worth putting in 40$ to get what you need for the endgame without grind (to be perfectly clear here: most of the things you need for the endgame drop in-game, what few things are cash store only you can trade for in the auction house quite readily as any items from level 30+ sell in that game because of a augmentation mechanic where items of a certain level can accept the maximum amount of augmentations possible but are cheaper than the last tier items to augment overall so people always demand those type items due to the transfer augmentation mechanic).

     

    In the end I'd like to remark somewhat amused and distressed that people would rather pay to play a turd than play it for free (I am truly sorry gents but most of the post-WoW games from the p2p and f2p devs are turds). That is the effect of perceived value :).

    image
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon

    I do think F2P games which were once P2P can be very good, but I am hard pushed to find a MMO that started as F2P that is good.

    PS2 is great, it is the one exception I know of but maybe it as good as it is for two reasons. The funding that was needed to make this game did not go on basic design, that had all been done in the first Planetside, the game we saw launched as PS2 had a lot of polish and ideas added from the original P2P game. The other reason would be it is a shooter, a lot of the problems with endgame and ‘things to do’ go out the window in a MMOFPS.

    GW2 was B2P, I don’t count B2P as a F2P game. They have there own niche, not P2P or F2P. I can see B2P being the future, that could raise the initial return on investment and future funding a MMO would need to do good updates and so on. If the industry goes down the B2P route that is, if they go down a purely F2P from launch route quality will be hit hard.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Scot

    I do think F2P games which were once P2P can be very good, but I am hard pushed to find a MMO that started as F2P that is good.

    PS2 is great, it is the one exception I know of but maybe it as good as it is for two reasons. The funding that was needed to make this game did not go on basic design, that had all been done in the first Planetside, the game we saw launched as PS2 had a lot of polish and ideas added from the original P2P game. The other reason would be it is a shooter, a lot of the problems with endgame and ‘things to do’ go out the window in a MMOFPS.

    GW2 was B2P, I don’t count B2P as a F2P game. They have there own niche, not P2P or F2P. I can see B2P being the future, that could raise the initial return on investment and future funding a MMO would need to do good updates and so on. If the industry goes down the B2P route that is, if they go down a purely F2P from launch route quality will be hit hard.

    Good F2P Games: Path of Exlie, World of Tanks and War Thunder, we can continue :P, want MMO's as well?

    image
  • VesaviusVesavius BristolPosts: 7,635Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by GameByNight
    Originally posted by Ayulin
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Shill piece
     

    lol...

    Man I wish you could like posts on this site.

    I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to discuss their thoughts. Agree or disagree. That's why I do this. Tinfoil hat accusations just seem silly in comparison. 

     

    Of course you will try to level the 'tin foil hat' accusation at anyone questioning motives or agendas for obvious puff pieces, it's a completely standard response.

    I am sorry you found it silly, but I must say I found the entire article silly and just yet another attempt by this site to pump gas into a revenue model that is bad for games and bad for the gamer. Balance instead of justifying and rationalizing would have stopped me posting what I did, but expecting a critical look at the model in an official post seems to much to ask.

    The only true reason to like 'F2P' is if you buy shares in the company that owns the game and you gain a direct reason to enjoy the extra profit it generates from gambling mechanisms and other manipulations.

    Btw, "Finally and centrally, we need to admit to ourselves when we've become nomadic"... We (you and others, not me so much) are nomadic now through design (or at least unforeseen side effects of design) so we just didn't just become anything through tastes changing naturally. A culture of MMORPG tourism is incredibly bad for the genre, despite any recent epiphany you have personally have had, and the 'F2P' revenue model is part of why it now exists to the level we see. I refuse to embrace a model because I have now rationalized the bad player practices it has created.

  • RELAXcowboyRELAXcowboy Dallas, TXPosts: 4Member
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by RELAXcowboy

    If FTP was as great as the game industry wants everyone to think it is then why aren't all MMORPGs (AAA included) FTP from the start?

    That's because no one wants FTP. They want to pay for a GOOD GAME. That is all there is to it. But you get companies like Bioware who get a drop in subs and go FTP/premium and they make it sound like its what the players want. No. It's not. A good well made game that is worth 15 bucks a month is what we want. Companies go FTP/Premium because of a large drop in subs and to supplement the loss in income they go Freemium so they can get more the just 15 dollars a month from their player base. It has nothing to do with what WE want and everything to do with money.  

     

    The market wants quality games, it does not care how they are monetized so kindly take your bias and keep walking with it.

    F2P caters more towards the people that what everything now. Why spend a week getting to max level when I can buy a few boosts and get there in 4 days. I need to get that dungeon gear so I can be well equipped. Let me just buy some cash shop items and sell them to other players. You want everything now. That's why the MMO market has become stale and boring. Leveling curves are a joke because people can't seem to be bothered with trying anymore. You can bet an MMO in a week and get full geared. Just gotta pay that extra money to do it. If you want to Pay a fee to play a game and pay an extra fee to enjoy the "extra features" then that is sad.

    You are a generation of gamers that have become complacent. Now we get to play games that release with bugs and that is unfinished because it can get fixed later and you don't how devs accountable. You pay for features that once was standard in games. It's sad. 

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,751Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Scot

    I do think F2P games which were once P2P can be very good, but I am hard pushed to find a MMO that started as F2P that is good.

    PS2 is great, it is the one exception I know of but maybe it as good as it is for two reasons. The funding that was needed to make this game did not go on basic design, that had all been done in the first Planetside, the game we saw launched as PS2 had a lot of polish and ideas added from the original P2P game. The other reason would be it is a shooter, a lot of the problems with endgame and ‘things to do’ go out the window in a MMOFPS.

    GW2 was B2P, I don’t count B2P as a F2P game. They have there own niche, not P2P or F2P. I can see B2P being the future, that could raise the initial return on investment and future funding a MMO would need to do good updates and so on. If the industry goes down the B2P route that is, if they go down a purely F2P from launch route quality will be hit hard.

    Good F2P Games: Path of Exlie, World of Tanks and War Thunder, we can continue :P, want MMO's as well?

    Indeed, we are all waiting to hear about some great F2P MMO's, I used the word games by mistake. I have no reason to think that you can't fund a decent online game via the F2P route, but MMO's cost a lot more.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by GameByNight
    Originally posted by Ayulin
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Shill piece
     

    lol...

    Man I wish you could like posts on this site.

    I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to discuss their thoughts. Agree or disagree. That's why I do this. Tinfoil hat accusations just seem silly in comparison. 

     

    Of course you will try to level the 'tin foil hat' accusation at anyone questioning motives or agendas for obvious puff pieces, it's a completely standard response.

    I am sorry you found it silly, but I must say I found the entire article silly and just yet another attempt by this site to pump gas into a revenue model that is bad for games and bad for the gamer. Balance instead of justifying and rationalizing would have stopped me posting what I did, but expecting a critical look at the model in an official post seems to much to ask.

    The only true reason to like 'F2P' is if you buy shares in the company that owns the game and you gain a direct reason to enjoy the extra profit it generates from gambling mechanisms and other manipulations.

    Btw, "Finally and centrally, we need to admit to ourselves when we've become nomadic"... We (you and others, not me so much) are nomadic now through design (or at least unforeseen side effects of design) so we just didn't just become anything through tastes changing naturally. A culture of MMORPG tourism is incredibly bad for the genre, despite any recent epiphany you have personally have had, and the 'F2P' revenue model is part of why it now exists to the level we see. I refuse to embrace a model because I have now rationalized the bad player practices it has created.

    And you'd level the "but I am right and you're wrong so there!" argument. You do know you both have opposite opinions and while his ain't the best (trying to find a middle ground between two very different payment models will almost always end with you smack dab in the no man's land) yours are far, far, far worse as you blame a payment model for a mentality... that's like blaming television for the mind numbing stupidity you see in some of today's youth (I will grant you that just like with tv few products are of quality in the MMO world but that's regardless of payment model which you neglect to mention completely and I would not be surprised if you did so intentionally). Now I can spend the rest of the day pulling apart that fallacy of an argument you made above but I really don't have to because since the moment you blamed a model of payment for the community you showed your hand and base futility of arguing with you that it is the community that needs to improve itself, a better model be it pay to play, free to play, buy to play or whatever will not improve the community and you know it.

    Originally posted by RELAXcowboy
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by RELAXcowboy

    If FTP was as great as the game industry wants everyone to think it is then why aren't all MMORPGs (AAA included) FTP from the start?

    That's because no one wants FTP. They want to pay for a GOOD GAME. That is all there is to it. But you get companies like Bioware who get a drop in subs and go FTP/premium and they make it sound like its what the players want. No. It's not. A good well made game that is worth 15 bucks a month is what we want. Companies go FTP/Premium because of a large drop in subs and to supplement the loss in income they go Freemium so they can get more the just 15 dollars a month from their player base. It has nothing to do with what WE want and everything to do with money.  

     

    The market wants quality games, it does not care how they are monetized so kindly take your bias and keep walking with it.

    F2P caters more towards the people that what everything now. Why spend a week getting to max level when I can buy a few boosts and get there in 4 days. I need to get that dungeon gear so I can be well equipped. Let me just buy some cash shop items and sell them to other players. You want everything now. That's why the MMO market has become stale and boring. Leveling curves are a joke because people can't seem to be bothered with trying anymore. You can bet an MMO in a week and get full geared. Just gotta pay that extra money to do it. If you want to Pay a fee to play a game and pay an extra fee to enjoy the "extra features" then that is sad.

    You are a generation of gamers that have become complacent. Now we get to play games that release with bugs and that is unfinished because it can get fixed later and you don't how devs accountable. You pay for features that once was standard in games. It's sad. 

    Complacent generation and yet you speak of vertical progression systems and levels.. dude play some EVE-Online, maybe some old style UO on a private shard or something where your in-game ass doesn't get exponentially more powerful the more time you spend in-game grinding and then talk to me about complacency. I am sick and tired of such piss poor arguments against a model by players who've obviously never played a large enough sample of the F2P games market to know one thing about the F2P model.

     

    Also as a final word: F2P gamers will hop around from game to game until they find a game they like, P2P gamers will hop around too but they have to do so paying for each hop, which is better for everyone that currently has a internet connection? the former, making a good game is no based on models of payment, it's truly a shame most people aren't mature enough to divorce the juvenile notion that games are what they're models make them out to be or , the most amusing and sad argument you will hear from P2P diehards, what level of "freedom" their payment model gives them.

     

    Edit to avoid double post:

    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Scot

    I do think F2P games which were once P2P can be very good, but I am hard pushed to find a MMO that started as F2P that is good.

    PS2 is great, it is the one exception I know of but maybe it as good as it is for two reasons. The funding that was needed to make this game did not go on basic design, that had all been done in the first Planetside, the game we saw launched as PS2 had a lot of polish and ideas added from the original P2P game. The other reason would be it is a shooter, a lot of the problems with endgame and ‘things to do’ go out the window in a MMOFPS.

    GW2 was B2P, I don’t count B2P as a F2P game. They have there own niche, not P2P or F2P. I can see B2P being the future, that could raise the initial return on investment and future funding a MMO would need to do good updates and so on. If the industry goes down the B2P route that is, if they go down a purely F2P from launch route quality will be hit hard.

    Good F2P Games: Path of Exlie, World of Tanks and War Thunder, we can continue :P, want MMO's as well?

    Indeed, we are all waiting to hear about some great F2P MMO's, I used the word games by mistake. I have no reason to think that you can't fund a decent online game via the F2P route, but MMO's cost a lot more.

    Star Trek Online would be the first game I nominate for decent F2P MMO though it is former P2P, as for purpose built ones of the good to great kind (in my sandboxer mind) : Wurm Online (restrictive F2P system yes but you can trade your way out of it if you're a half decent survivalist/crafter), Salem (just get the standalone client made by one of the old guard players) and Albion Online (still in alpha but a damn good game by what I've seen).

    image
  • PrecusorPrecusor PalmaPosts: 4,733Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    Originally posted by Scot

    I do think F2P games which were once P2P can be very good, but I am hard pushed to find a MMO that started as F2P that is good.

    PS2 is great, it is the one exception I know of but maybe it as good as it is for two reasons. The funding that was needed to make this game did not go on basic design, that had all been done in the first Planetside, the game we saw launched as PS2 had a lot of polish and ideas added from the original P2P game. The other reason would be it is a shooter, a lot of the problems with endgame and ‘things to do’ go out the window in a MMOFPS.

    GW2 was B2P, I don’t count B2P as a F2P game. They have there own niche, not P2P or F2P. I can see B2P being the future, that could raise the initial return on investment and future funding a MMO would need to do good updates and so on. If the industry goes down the B2P route that is, if they go down a purely F2P from launch route quality will be hit hard.

    Good F2P Games: Path of Exlie, World of Tanks and War Thunder, we can continue :P, want MMO's as well?

    Indeed, we are all waiting to hear about some great F2P MMO's, I used the word games by mistake. I have no reason to think that you can't fund a decent online game via the F2P route, but MMO's cost a lot more.

    There isn't any except for the mediocre p2p mmos that turned to f2p.

  • LissylLissyl Peru, INPosts: 271Member Common

    He's a 'convert' to f2p?

    There are only two things I'm aware of that have 'converts'.  Religions...and cults.

    ...seems legit!

  • WhitebeardsWhitebeards TokyoPosts: 778Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by GameByNight
    Originally posted by Ayulin
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Shill piece
     

    lol...

    Man I wish you could like posts on this site.

    I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to discuss their thoughts. Agree or disagree. That's why I do this. Tinfoil hat accusations just seem silly in comparison. 

     

    Of course you will try to level the 'tin foil hat' accusation at anyone questioning motives or agendas for obvious puff pieces, it's a completely standard response.

    I am sorry you found it silly, but I must say I found the entire article silly and just yet another attempt by this site to pump gas into a revenue model that is bad for games and bad for the gamer. Balance instead of justifying and rationalizing would have stopped me posting what I did, but expecting a critical look at the model in an official post seems to much to ask.

    The only true reason to like 'F2P' is if you buy shares in the company that owns the game and you gain a direct reason to enjoy the extra profit it generates from gambling mechanisms and other manipulations.

    Btw, "Finally and centrally, we need to admit to ourselves when we've become nomadic"... We (you and others, not me so much) are nomadic now through design (or at least unforeseen side effects of design) so we just didn't just become anything through tastes changing naturally. A culture of MMORPG tourism is incredibly bad for the genre, despite any recent epiphany you have personally have had, and the 'F2P' revenue model is part of why it now exists to the level we see. I refuse to embrace a model because I have now rationalized the bad player practices it has created.

    What the...? image

     It is hard to take your post seriously when you make such tin foil hat comments.. You shouldn't be calling anyone else posts 'silly'.

  • ZalmonZalmon Bloomington, INPosts: 319Member
    Originally posted by Vesavius

     

     

    Of course you will try to level the 'tin foil hat' accusation at anyone questioning motives or agendas for obvious puff pieces, it's a completely standard response.

    I am sorry you found it silly, but I must say I found the entire article silly and just yet another attempt by this site to pump gas into a revenue model that is bad for games and bad for the gamer. Balance instead of justifying and rationalizing would have stopped me posting what I did, but expecting a critical look at the model in an official post seems to much to ask.

    The only true reason to like 'F2P' is if you buy shares in the company that owns the game and you gain a direct reason to enjoy the extra profit it generates from gambling mechanisms and other manipulations.

    Btw, "Finally and centrally, we need to admit to ourselves when we've become nomadic"... We (you and others, not me so much) are nomadic now through design (or at least unforeseen side effects of design) so we just didn't just become anything through tastes changing naturally. A culture of MMORPG tourism is incredibly bad for the genre, despite any recent epiphany you have personally have had, and the 'F2P' revenue model is part of why it now exists to the level we see. I refuse to embrace a model because I have now rationalized the bad player practices it has created.

    I am sure i am not the only one who see the irony in your reply when you call his article 'silly'.

    Especially when you make statements like these.....

    The only true reason to like 'F2P' is if you buy shares in the company that owns the game and you gain a direct reason to enjoy the extra profit it generates from gambling mechanisms and other manipulations

    I like how you are so sure of yourself sir. I have been having a lot of fun lately in all the F2P MMOS than i ever did in any  of the P2P MMOS in the past. Why? because i have more choices now and i don't need to shell out 15 bucks just to get 'access' to the game even though i am not sure if i am going to like the changes. But now i am free to check out changes and drop the game if i don't like it.

    And i can assure you i have never bought any shares in any of these companies. And that is not the 'only' reason to enjoy F2P games.

    I laughed out loud when i read your post..my wife though i have gone mad...image I love these forums they are such a constant source of entertainment.

  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Monticello, MNPosts: 418Member

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

  • WhitebeardsWhitebeards TokyoPosts: 778Member
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

    You completely missed the point. F2P games are built for the benefit of people willing to pay. The rest get crumbs. As soon as the freeloaders wise up or get bored and move on the game collapses. The advantages you bought are worthless if there's no one to play with.  F2P games are a fad not as a group but individually.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • WhitebeardsWhitebeards TokyoPosts: 778Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

    You completely missed the point. F2P games are built for the benefit of people willing to pay. The rest get crumbs. As soon as the freeloaders wise up or get bored and move on the game collapses. The advantages you bought are worthless if there's no one to play with.  F2P games are a fad not as a group but individually.

    How many F2P games that went P2P have collapsed so far if what you are saying is true? although i can give you example of many P2P MMOS that collapsed and now are running as F2P.

    If anything P2P was a fad and now people are opening their eyes and refusing to support this model.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

    You completely missed the point. F2P games are built for the benefit of people willing to pay. The rest get crumbs. As soon as the freeloaders wise up or get bored and move on the game collapses. The advantages you bought are worthless if there's no one to play with.  F2P games are a fad not as a group but individually.

    There are F2P games which do do that and whom will go and die in a fire soon enough and there are others who either offer you the chance to grind your way to equality (which may not sound like fun but let me ask you how fun do you think it is for someone new to MMOs now looking back at vanilla EQ to grind that up) or are flat out equal from the get go. Now kindly eliminate the word "freeloader" out of this context because we can always start calling p2pers "chumps with too much change" or something along those lines but it wouldn't be fair to them now would it?

    image
  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

    You completely missed the point. F2P games are built for the benefit of people willing to pay. The rest get crumbs. As soon as the freeloaders wise up or get bored and move on the game collapses. The advantages you bought are worthless if there's no one to play with.  F2P games are a fad not as a group but individually.

    How many F2P games that went P2P have collapsed so far if what you are saying is true? although i can give you example of many P2P MMOS that collapsed and now are running as F2P.

    If anything P2P was a fad and now people are opening their eyes and refusing to support this model.

    They got there by getting a bunch of suckers, many of whom are  pissed about it, to pay for most of the game's development up front. Then when their piss poor game was going belly up they converted to F2P. If you think those games are in any way healthy you're kidding yourself. That is not the F2P model by any stretch of the imagination. As companies start short circuiting  development and going straight to F2P the advantages sold in the cash shop grow in power. Fewer people per game are going to be lining up to be the whipping boys of the moneyed classes in an overcrowded market. It's a system that rapidly cannibalizes the player base. The life cycle of F2P games becomes shorter, the development investment becomes smaller, and the games become shallower.

     

    The alternative is to build good games and support them.

    freeload

    verb (used without object) Informal.

    1. to take advantage of others for free food, entertainment, etc.

     

     

    If the shoe fits......

     

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • CarnicideCarnicide mount dora, FLPosts: 221Member Common

    Every single thread on this article about "F2p and B2p" being a terrible concept really have no idea what they're talking about. I have easily a good 6 friends that are good gamers and fun to play with, they simply won't play a game because of the mandatory $15 sub fee. How are they suppose to know the game is worth it when they have to pay the box price and then 15 dollars to even log on? That's quite a bit of money for a video game, plus the annoyance when it comes to subbing and then cancelling at the same time so you make sure not to get charged again. I've been there before when I forgot I was subbed and 4 months down the road never playing the game I realized when checking my statement there was WoW charging my account. Not saying WoW isn't worth it, and also not saying it's Blizzards fault for me not managing my money better. I'm just saying it's an inconvenience and expensive when having to do that to even play. How are we suppose to know the end game is worth it? I mean common the leveling is usually always the most fun until you get a guild that is worthy  of end game content. Then at that point can you judge if you're welling to continue to paying a sub fee for the monthly charge.

    Also paying the $15 dollars for someone with a fulltime job, fulltime student, and tries to balance they're life outside of video games isn't able to hit the level cap in a month of the first $15 dollar sub fee. I know most games allow you to play the first 30 days free like its something exciting. B2p is really the best option for gamers, well done right it's the best option. Box price plus cash shop is nice. Also, if you're worried about people paying for gear to "win" why don't you save that $15 bucks you would of paid and spend it on the gear instead? Who cares what other people do with THEIR money. They earned it, let them spend it on what they want.

  • WhitebeardsWhitebeards TokyoPosts: 778Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

    You completely missed the point. F2P games are built for the benefit of people willing to pay. The rest get crumbs. As soon as the freeloaders wise up or get bored and move on the game collapses. The advantages you bought are worthless if there's no one to play with.  F2P games are a fad not as a group but individually.

    How many F2P games that went P2P have collapsed so far if what you are saying is true? although i can give you example of many P2P MMOS that collapsed and now are running as F2P.

    If anything P2P was a fad and now people are opening their eyes and refusing to support this model.

    They got there by getting a bunch of suckers, many of whom are  pissed about it, to pay for most of the game's development up front. Then when their piss poor game was going belly up they converted to F2P. If you think those games are in any way healthy you're kidding yourself. That is not the F2P model by any stretch of the imagination. As companies start short circuiting  development and going straight to F2P the advantages sold in the cash shop grow in power. Fewer people per game are going to be lining up to be the whipping boys of the moneyed classes in an overcrowded market. It's a system that rapidly cannibalizes the player base. The life cycle of F2P games becomes shorter, the development investment becomes smaller, and the games become shallower.

     

    The alternative is to build good games and support them.

    freeload

    verb (used without object) Informal.

    1. to take advantage of others for free food, entertainment, etc.

     

     

    If the shoe fits......

     

    I see now you are just making stuff as you go even though you don't have any examples to back up what you are saying. Sadly i don't have your ability to see in crystal ball and tell you the future.Your whole post is one big guess work of what may or not may happen in future.

    What P2P MMOS did you get suckered into the past which are F2P now? one look through post history and i know the answer but i would let you come clean on your own.

  • OzmodanOzmodan Hilliard, OHPosts: 7,180Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

    You completely missed the point. F2P games are built for the benefit of people willing to pay. The rest get crumbs. As soon as the freeloaders wise up or get bored and move on the game collapses. The advantages you bought are worthless if there's no one to play with.  F2P games are a fad not as a group but individually.

    How many F2P games that went P2P have collapsed so far if what you are saying is true? although i can give you example of many P2P MMOS that collapsed and now are running as F2P.

    If anything P2P was a fad and now people are opening their eyes and refusing to support this model.

    Sorry, but that is incorrect,  most of the straight f2p games are struggling, few have enough content to keep people more than a month or two.  The p2p with a f2p option are booming.  Pretty much affirms p2p will continue to be the primary payment method for MMO's with significant content.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

    You completely missed the point. F2P games are built for the benefit of people willing to pay. The rest get crumbs. As soon as the freeloaders wise up or get bored and move on the game collapses. The advantages you bought are worthless if there's no one to play with.  F2P games are a fad not as a group but individually.

    How many F2P games that went P2P have collapsed so far if what you are saying is true? although i can give you example of many P2P MMOS that collapsed and now are running as F2P.

    If anything P2P was a fad and now people are opening their eyes and refusing to support this model.

    They got there by getting a bunch of suckers, many of whom are  pissed about it, to pay for most of the game's development up front. Then when their piss poor game was going belly up they converted to F2P. If you think those games are in any way healthy you're kidding yourself. That is not the F2P model by any stretch of the imagination. As companies start short circuiting  development and going straight to F2P the advantages sold in the cash shop grow in power. Fewer people per game are going to be lining up to be the whipping boys of the moneyed classes in an overcrowded market. It's a system that rapidly cannibalizes the player base. The life cycle of F2P games becomes shorter, the development investment becomes smaller, and the games become shallower.

     

    The alternative is to build good games and support them.

    freeload

    verb (used without object) Informal.

    1. to take advantage of others for free food, entertainment, etc.

     

     

    If the shoe fits......

     

    Fanboi

    n. Someone who is hopelessly devoted to something and will like anything associated with their particular thing.

    Indeed.

    image
  • WhitebeardsWhitebeards TokyoPosts: 778Member
    Originally posted by Ozmodan
     

    Sorry, but that is incorrect,  most of the straight f2p games are struggling, few have enough content to keep people more than a month or two.  The p2p with a f2p option are booming.  Pretty much affirms p2p will continue to be the primary payment method for MMO's with significant content.

    If you share some relevant information i would be thankful because i am getting tired of people making up their own stuff to drive a point home. Which of the P2P MMOS are struggling?? any relevant or official link or information would be great. And what P2P MMOS with F2P options are booming?

    And please do not reply to me with your own person guess work.

  • zymurgeistzymurgeist Pittsville, VAPosts: 5,211Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
    Originally posted by Whitebeards
    Originally posted by Kleptobrainiac

    If everything goes FTP, inevitably it will become pay to win.

     

    Forgetting that someone else is paying for the game you're playing & expecting them to design games around the freeloaders is a very humorous stretch of thought. The people who pay the bills call the shots. This is reality. Even in the world of fantasy.

    You are assuming that players in F2P games do not spend money..even though after P2P games go F2P they always get higher earnings and profits. 

    For example i have spent more money in AION and TERA than i did in P2P MMOS like WOW and EVE. I get to choose and buy what i want and devs get more money than just 15 bucks a month. Its a win win situation for everyone.

    Only because game is F2P doesn't mean people don't spend money.

    You completely missed the point. F2P games are built for the benefit of people willing to pay. The rest get crumbs. As soon as the freeloaders wise up or get bored and move on the game collapses. The advantages you bought are worthless if there's no one to play with.  F2P games are a fad not as a group but individually.

    How many F2P games that went P2P have collapsed so far if what you are saying is true? although i can give you example of many P2P MMOS that collapsed and now are running as F2P.

    If anything P2P was a fad and now people are opening their eyes and refusing to support this model.

    They got there by getting a bunch of suckers, many of whom are  pissed about it, to pay for most of the game's development up front. Then when their piss poor game was going belly up they converted to F2P. If you think those games are in any way healthy you're kidding yourself. That is not the F2P model by any stretch of the imagination. As companies start short circuiting  development and going straight to F2P the advantages sold in the cash shop grow in power. Fewer people per game are going to be lining up to be the whipping boys of the moneyed classes in an overcrowded market. It's a system that rapidly cannibalizes the player base. The life cycle of F2P games becomes shorter, the development investment becomes smaller, and the games become shallower.

     

    The alternative is to build good games and support them.

    freeload

    verb (used without object) Informal.

    1. to take advantage of others for free food, entertainment, etc.

     

     

    If the shoe fits......

     

    I see now you are just making stuff as you go even though you don't have any examples to back up what you are saying. Sadly i don't have your ability to see in crystal ball and tell you the future.Your whole post is one big guess work of what may or not may happen in future.

    What P2P MMOS did you get suckered into the past which are F2P now? one look through post history and i know the answer but i would let you come clean on your own.

    SWtoR and Fallen Earth. I defy anyone to claim those were good games that went F2P because it's a superior business model. I never paid past the free month for either. Shadowbane I used to subscribe to and it's the only subscription game that ever truly became free to play, as in didn't cost anyone a cent to play.  It doesn't take a crystal ball to read an obvious trend. You can get a few thousand to play any MMO but to make real money you need a good game. Here's a thought exercise. How many of those P2P games that converted to F2P would have been made if the developers could have known how they would turn out? Zip. Nada None.

    "Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  • WhitebeardsWhitebeards TokyoPosts: 778Member
    Originally posted by zymurgeist
     

    SWtoR and Fallen Earth. I defy anyone to claim those were good games that went F2P because it's a superior business model. I never paid past the free month for either. Shadowbane I used to subscribe to and it's the only subscription game that ever truly became free to play, as in didn't cost anyone a cent to play.  It doesn't take a crystal ball to read an obvious trend. You can get a few thousand to play any MMO but to make real money you need a good game. Here's a thought exercise. How many of those P2P games that converted to F2P would have been made if the developers could have known how they would turn out? Zip. Nada None.

    No it does indeed takes the crystal ball to read a not so obvious trend because to form an educated guess one needs some example or real data in present.

    Do we have examples of many P2P MMOS turning into F2P? yes..do we have examples of these F2P MMO dying or shut down? nope.

    As far as subject of good games is concerned do you really think P2P model in todays time depends upon how good or bad the game is? if it was true Arch Age wouldn't go F2P in asia even before  its release in West.

    And i know people who would make bold claims like 'i would pay 50 bucks for a game like AA' on these forums. When game like AA didn't have a chance on its own home turf what chance you think it has with western players? none.

    That proves the current trend and how people wouldn't just support a MMO in its pure P2P model no matter how good it is.

    And honestly if Arch Age with all its features and content isn't considered a good game then i have no hope for future MMOS.

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