4e knowledge out there ?

allegria · May 2013

In looking to gain an understanding of 4e and after struggling to want to login to this game past level 22 I am wondering what folks think of the actual implementation of 4e here.

It seems devoid of many D&D things not to mention the most mind numbing combat and very very poor character building potential. That said, the game is fun for what it is and looks real good... but can anyone explain to me how this 4e implementation is/not done well ?

hoping to gain some knowledge of 4e here.

treelo · May 2013

The At-Will and Encounter power mechanics are accurate enough. Dailies/Action Points are an acceptable middle ground. Very few of the powers match their original forms.

The rest of the game isn't even close. There are nods to features, but that's about as good as it gets.

So if you removed the need to think tactically by giving everyone unlimited range, the combat would be recognisable as 4th edition.

Dibdabs · May 2013

I'm used to the system now, but having started D&D pre-Edition 1 it in no way resembles the game I played 36 years ago. it's fun though for, as you say, what it is.

ZedTheRock · May 2013

I've only played 2ed and 2.5ed but to be honest trying to compare editions to a computer game is pointless. Play the game based on its own merits I say. From what little bit of knowledge I do have I understand that I would frickken hate playing 4ed Pen and Paper but in a PC game I could care less as long as the game is fun and engaging.

Deivos · May 2013

Because the different basic type of the games the best you achieve is an approximation.

In the case of combat there are elements that come close, such as the previously mentioned at will and encounter abilities, but they are still translated in a manner that separates them from the PnP mechanics.

At will perhaps being the only one that exists more or less as described. 'At-Will'

Even encounter powers see a shift, since the game isn't turn based and does not adhere to a concept of a defined encounter event, the powers instead operate off of a timer, which means the amount of times you can use an encounter power within the context of a fight is dependent on the length of a fight rather than it being a finite resource to use once. This would make the biggest demonstration in the case of throwing minions in alongside a boss.

A similar condition applies to daily powers.

Skills effectively went away, having a class bound function to replace it.

There's plenty of other discrepancies, but the point of the matter is that the game has a general representation of D&D and 4E, with only a vague approximation of the mechanics that drives it. It's more akin to flavoring than a dictating factor, as the setting does more to define the game as D&D than anything else.

Which is rather an inevitable case when you translate one game type into another game type, things gots to get changed.

If you pace the game differently and bring it closer to the tabletop experience, you could get a better approximation, like Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights, but even in those cases you witness some notable changes to allow a mostly real time implementation.

allegria · May 2013

Originally posted by Deivos
Because the different basic type of the games the best you achieve is an approximation.

In the case of combat there are elements that come close, such as the previously mentioned at will and encounter abilities, but they are still translated in a manner that separates them from the PnP mechanics.

At will perhaps being the only one that exists more or less as described. 'At-Will'

Even encounter powers see a shift, since the game isn't turn based and does not adhere to a concept of a defined encounter event, the powers instead operate off of a timer, which means the amount of times you can use an encounter power within the context of a fight is dependent on the length of a fight rather than it being a finite resource to use once. This would make the biggest demonstration in the case of throwing minions in alongside a boss.

A similar condition applies to daily powers.

Skills effectively went away, having a class bound function to replace it.

There's plenty of other discrepancies, but the point of the matter is that the game has a general representation of D&D and 4E, with only a vague approximation of the mechanics that drives it. It's more akin to flavoring than a dictating factor, as the setting does more to define the game as D&D than anything else.

Which is rather an inevitable case when you translate one game type into another game type, things gots to get changed.

If you pace the game differently and bring it closer to the tabletop experience, you could get a better approximation, like Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights, but even in those cases you witness some notable changes to allow a mostly real time implementation.

informative post thanks !

I suppose i am thinking like this:

( note i am well versed in 3.X not 4.X )

Game seems to be missing . . .

Traps that matter with ability score

Lockpicking + score ? come on !

Searching for traps and secret doors ?

Then many of the RP ish things from 3.5 also would rock... I suppose what i am getting at is.. i think i could like this game a bit even giving up character theorycrafting and implementation if they had some staples from D&D as outlined above ( there are likely more i am forgetting )...

One thing i was told is in D&D 4e there is no typed damage just damage... it annoys the crap out of me that I am hitting skeletons with a dagger with no DR lol. Just one of the classic depth pieces i feel is obviously lacking here.

That said... what did you mean by:

"Skills effectively went away, having a class bound function to replace it."

I am curious because one thing that drives me nuts about this game is the lack of abilities... as a rogue at now 27 i am basically using the same 2-3 skills every fight and mostly LMB and all i keep thinking is if i had more "moves" available at one time, the game would sure be more interesting.

Deivos · May 2013

Nah there actually is typed damage. Physical, Arcane, Force, Elemental, etc. It's just that basic some abilities tend to do untyped damage so that all classes have something they can throw at enemies in combat.

It's just that a lot of this information is either tucked into the description of a power or used as a keyword in 4E, so it becomes less obvious and easier to ignore.

And by 'skills went away' I mean the list of skills such as Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Bluff, Diplomacy, etc.

Instead of having those as something you dump skill points into as you level, you get one quality that's bound to the class you picked.

So when I refer to skill, I mean it in D&D terms, and am not referring to the abilities you pick to hit things with, but the second set of stats that traditionally you would do skill rolls with.

The lack of abilities is an additional issue, one mostly generated out of the desire to control the complexity of the combat and not inundate the players with a bunch of attack powers they might eventually weed out.

Also as an aside, don't think I've played a game that did traps really well yet. At least not in the context of a 3D rpg.

If one came along that let you block out where the trap was to be set as well as placing how it's triggered, and letting it actually have consequential effects so a character can be built around their use over direct combat, I would enjoy the hell out of it.

allegria · May 2013

Originally posted by Deivos
Nah there actually is typed damage. Physical, Arcane, Force, Elemental, etc. It's just that basic some abilities tend to do untyped damage so that all classes have something they can throw at enemies in combat.

It's just that a lot of this information is either tucked into the description of a power or used as a keyword in 4E, so it becomes less obvious and easier to ignore.

And by 'skills went away' I mean the list of skills such as Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Bluff, Diplomacy, etc.

Instead of having those as something you dump skill points into as you level, you get one quality that's bound to the class you picked.

So when I refer to skill, I mean it in D&D terms, and am not referring to the abilities you pick to hit things with, but the second set of stats that traditionally you would do skill rolls with.

The lack of abilities is an additional issue, one mostly generated out of the desire to control the complexity of the combat and not inundate the players with a bunch of attack powers they might eventually weed out.

Also as an aside, don't think I've played a game that did traps really well yet. At least not in the context of a 3D rpg.

If one came along that let you block out where the trap was to be set as well as placing how it's triggered, and letting it actually have consequential effects so a character can be built around their use over direct combat, I would enjoy the hell out of it.

Thank you sir.

Zuvielify · May 2013

Originally posted by allegria
I am curious because one thing that drives me nuts about this game is the lack of abilities... as a rogue at now 27 i am basically using the same 2-3 skills every fight and mostly LMB and all i keep thinking is if i had more "moves" available at one time, the game would sure be more interesting.

You don't like holding down left click for half the encounter? Weird

I'm starting to get sick of it too.

Elikal · May 2013

I played the 4e about a year, and Neverwinter seems a fairly good MMO manifestation of the 4e D&D. It is a bit limited, but more streamlined. The old 3.5 had reached a point where it had SO many exceptions and special rules and whatnot, it was hardly handable for a DM. There was almost always a speciality to circumvent the DM's plans. 4e just overdid the streamlining to the point of boredom, but Neverwinter Online is quite true to the 4e, if you ask me.

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