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Developers have fooled us over the definition of "Pay-to-Win"

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  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,675Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by udon   if anyone thinks that content isn't designed with the pay model in mind regardless of the payment model they are mistaken.

    Are you suggesting that isn't true of any and every MMO, regardless of business model? For that matter, of any and every entertainment service?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • SagasaintSagasaint Miami, FLPosts: 460Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    It seems to me people should grow up and decide what is best for them and let others decide what is best for themselves.

    Definitely. If an RPG was a bottle of your favorite beverage, your standard P2P MMORPG would be that same bottle poured into a barrel and filled brim with water. It takes a whole lot more time to drink all that but at the same time it might be too diluted for you to enjoy anymore.

    and your standard F2P game would be that same bottle poured into a barrel and filled brim with horse manure, and you must drink it all before being allowed to reach the bottle. but of course, the developer offers to remove a gallon of shit for every dollar you give him.

    and if you were to do some quick maths, to remove all the shit you would have paid a lot more than the cost of the bottle...or drank a lot of shit...your call, really

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,768Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by udon   if anyone thinks that content isn't designed with the pay model in mind regardless of the payment model they are mistaken.

    Are you suggesting that isn't true of any and every MMO, regardless of business model? For that matter, of any and every entertainment service?

     

    I did say regardless of payment model didn't I?

    I think this really comes down to personal preferences.  If you prefer the MMO's that F2P and B2P tends to deliver than your living in a golden age of gaming.  If instead you prefer the old school MMO's than this new "revolution" in gaming looks pretty under whelming.  I honestly wanted F2P and B2P games to work for me and I gave them a good try but I find them on the whole are shallow lifeless worlds hardly worth my time for more than a couple hundred hours of gameplay as a distraction.  Nothing like the thousands I have spent in older MMO's. Modern MMO's are meant to be consumed and disposed of rather than lived in.

    Maybe it's just me.  

  • ZedTheRockZedTheRock Florence, KYPosts: 172Member
    Originally posted by ZedTheRock
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage.  In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics.  For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.

    I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win".  When did this become the definition become the norm?

    If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency.  It is still "Pay-to-Win".  Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.

    Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach.  In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money.  When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    [mod edit]

    In other words:

     

    If you can buy something that gives power greater then something that can only be acquired in game.  I.e. Buy a Sword that does 1000 damage when the best sword found in gameplay only does 900 damage.

     

    That is the truest and ONLY definition of P2W.

    SUP

  • SagasaintSagasaint Miami, FLPosts: 460Member
    Originally posted by ZedTheRock

    [mod edit]

    except it isnt as black and white as your trying it to be

     

    take for example Neverwinter Online. follow me here for a second:

     

    they have an enchantment system that grants heyfty amounts of power at the highest level of enchantment

    likewise, the higher the enchantment level, the lowers the chances of succeeding in enchanting your items, up to 1% at level 5. 

    and of course, there is a cash shop item that gratns 100% success chance per enchantment attempt. but, and here's the kicker, you can get an ingame currency that trades directly for cash shop currency.

    this is a pretty standard practice in F2P games, many sport similar systems.

     

     

    it has been calculated that to be fully decked in the best possible enchantment level would cost someone close to $600

    getting the amount of ingame currency to trade for cash shop currency would take years. YEARS, devoted to farm for it with your soul.

    or....you could skip both the ingame currency and the cash shop, and try your luck at 1% per attempt...which again, would probably represent a multi-year quest for getting to the same level of a cash shop user.

    but of course, on the paper, that possibility exists. 

     

     

    dunno about you, but that still sounds like pure, absolute pay to win to me, even tho technically you can get there without paying

     

    I think we all agree that there's a point where the grind becomes so absolutly ridicule and borderline clinically insane, that it actually defies th advertisements and it simply stops being a reasonable alternative to paying

    but grind is a very subjetive term, so its impossible to quantify at what point a game is or isnt pay to win. grind depends on the eye of the beholder.

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Here's a kicker for people who say F2P games are grindy as fuck: There is no grind when you enjoy playing a game regardless of payment model. If you do not enjoy the game then you will grind but if you do not enjoy a game while play it?

    image
  • romelloromello Calgary, ABPosts: 34Member
    there is also the category of pay to have any fun which is also as serious

    hallo ~_~

  • ninjapyninjapy berkeley springs, WVPosts: 39Member Uncommon

    P2W applies to PVP or RVR. NPC's don't give a crap if you paid 10 bucks for the OP epic sword of al times, The guy you killed in one shot on the other side of the monitor does. World of Tanks is the best example. You can buy gold rounds with in game currency you purchase with Real life currency. Its easy to tell when someone has gold rounds. Roll up to a guy with the same tank hit him 5 times in the sweet spot, half dead. He hits you 2 times ANYWHERE with gold rounds Your blown up. That's P2W.

     

     

     

  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    Originally posted by ninjapy

     Its easy to tell when someone has gold rounds. Roll up to a guy with the same tank hit him 5 times in the sweat spot, half dead. He hits you 2 times ANYWHERE with gold rounds Your blown up. That's P2W.

    1) They can be purchased with credits.

    2) I can always tell when someone's pissed they faced a 122 long barrel gun and lost to it. Learn to gods damn angle your armour or stay the hells away from derp tanks with HEAT rounds (the only premium ammunition which could kill you in 2 shots on lower level tanks, fun fact about that ammunition: Unless your armour is utter garbage if you stay 300-400 m away from a derp tank it will bounce HEAT shells off you like no tomorrow because HEAT pen values drops with range by a metric ton, down to HE levels at which point if you die in 2 shots then it's your armour at fault not premium shells).

    image
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZedTheRock
    Originally posted by ZedTheRock
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage.  In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics.  For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.

    I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win".  When did this become the definition become the norm?

    If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency.  It is still "Pay-to-Win".  Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.

    Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach.  In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money.  When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    [mod edit]

    In other words:

     

    If you can buy something that gives power greater then something that can only be acquired in game.  I.e. Buy a Sword that does 1000 damage when the best sword found in gameplay only does 900 damage.

     

    That is the truest and ONLY definition of P2W.

     

     

    Regardless of your definition we are already in a P2W era. This is the natural result of having a cash shop, we said it was going to happen years ago, hardly surprising is has.

    But what's next? Is there anything else left for them to sell? That new sword, only one player on the server can have it, will you be the one to bid enough at the cash shop auction to get the most powerful weapon in the game? Auctioning off elite gear in the cash shop is a possibility.

    It is hard to know, the only certain prediction I can make is that it won't be getting any better as long as we have cash shops, it can only go downhill.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by ZedTheRock
    Originally posted by ZedTheRock
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage.  In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics.  For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.

    I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win".  When did this become the definition become the norm?

    If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency.  It is still "Pay-to-Win".  Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.

    Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach.  In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money.  When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    [mod edit]

    In other words:

     

    If you can buy something that gives power greater then something that can only be acquired in game.  I.e. Buy a Sword that does 1000 damage when the best sword found in gameplay only does 900 damage.

     

    That is the truest and ONLY definition of P2W.

     

     

    Regardless of your definition we are already in a P2W era. This is the natural result of having a cash shop, we said it was going to happen years ago, hardly surprising is has.

    But what's next? Is there anything else left for them to sell? That new sword, only one player on the server can have it, will you be the one to bid enough at the cash shop auction to get the most powerful weapon in the game? Auctioning off elite gear in the cash shop is a possibility.

    It is hard to know, the only certain prediction I can make is that it won't be getting any better as long as we have cash shops, it can only go downhill.

    And now we come full circle.  That depends entirely on your definition of p2w.  IMO most of the good games out today are not p2w as at any given level they do not have an advantage over what I can get in a reasonable amount of time in the game itself.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,829Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sagasaint
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

    It seems to me people should grow up and decide what is best for them and let others decide what is best for themselves.

    Definitely. If an RPG was a bottle of your favorite beverage, your standard P2P MMORPG would be that same bottle poured into a barrel and filled brim with water. It takes a whole lot more time to drink all that but at the same time it might be too diluted for you to enjoy anymore.

    and your standard F2P game would be that same bottle poured into a barrel and filled brim with horse manure, and you must drink it all before being allowed to reach the bottle. but of course, the developer offers to remove a gallon of shit for every dollar you give him.

    and if you were to do some quick maths, to remove all the shit you would have paid a lot more than the cost of the bottle...or drank a lot of shit...your call, really

    Or you can have good sub free games where your beverage is the same but you can keep making the bottle more exciting, making it equal or even more more shiny than that P2P bottle.

    Because lets face, a P2P game without tons of water and manure won't be able to pinch you the $15 a month for long. That is why you have RNG, raid locks, reputation, caps per week, etc

    Again, it is about one deciding what is best for them.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • ArclanArclan Chicago, ILPosts: 1,494Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Sagasaint
    Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter It seems to me people should grow up and decide what is best for them and let others decide what is best for themselves.
    Definitely. If an RPG was a bottle of your favorite beverage, your standard P2P MMORPG would be that same bottle poured into a barrel and filled brim with water. It takes a whole lot more time to drink all that but at the same time it might be too diluted for you to enjoy anymore.
    and your standard F2P game would be that same bottle poured into a barrel and filled brim with horse manure, and you must drink it all before being allowed to reach the bottle. but of course, the developer offers to remove a gallon of shit for every dollar you give him.

    and if you were to do some quick maths, to remove all the shit you would have paid a lot more than the cost of the bottle...or drank a lot of shit...your call, really


    Excellent analogy (and quite hilarious). As anti-P2W as I am, something about an auction appeals to me. Devs create 100+ copies of "cool sword 01" and (silent) auction them off to players. Top 100 bidders win. Or some cool mounts. Important thing is for the item to remain relevant.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • dontadowdontadow Detroit, MIPosts: 1,044Member Common
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    To me the definition of "Pay-to-Win" has always been something in an MMO that let you gain an in-game advantage.  In almost all F2P/B2P MMOs you can get some of the best gear in the game with real life money, usually by converting real life money to game currency and buying epics.  For example, I can gear my character in GW2 or Neverwinter in full "epics" with real life money.

    I keep hearing players and developers now say that if you can get this gear in game with game currency, it isn't "Pay-to-Win".  When did this become the definition become the norm?

    If I can get the best gear in the game with real life money, and I can get it with in-game currency.  It is still "Pay-to-Win".  Because usually you can buy in-game currency with real life money.

    Star Citizen and Chris Roberts recently took this approach.  In Star Citizen you can buy all the ships with real life money.  When people said it was "Pay-to-Win", RSI said it isn't "Pay-to-Win" because you can buy the ships in game.

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    First there must be a win condition. If Jack has this much armor that he got easily in the game and i got all pretty matching armor that gives me no physical advantage, and we can do the same dungeon and that's our (win) condition, then the game is not Play2win. It's never been play to play.  

    The only games that can be play2win are games that have item treadmills where content is blocked off unless you have speicfic items and the quickest way to get those items is to buy them. For all those people who still want to think a lot of games out now are play to win because they allow you to teleport, they need to play Runes of Magic. 

  • wildclawwildclaw GothenburgPosts: 46Member
    Originally posted by SoMuchMass

    So am I wrong?  What is the definition of "Pay-to-Win"?

    "To be able to buy any kind of in game advantage or prestige with money beyond what constitutes an acceptable monthly fee."

    It isn't the charging of money that makes things P2W, nor that it gives you in game power like some think (those are just red herrings used to hide that developers often are pushing P2W into their games). No, what it really comes down to is that P2W is the ability to use large amounts of money to bypass acquiring items/levels/etc by gameplay. 

    If you aren't subscribing or paying an equal amount of money to play a game, then you are essentially just playing a demo, and you should accept that you will get less xp/etc. That is not P2W but simply basic business. The issue of P2W only comes into play once you look at someone who is paying the equivalent of a subscription and still is at a disadvantage compared to someone willing to spend more money.

    And to repeat myself, it isn't about Power. Everyone should know by now that MMOs are just as much about Prestige. So the ability to essentially buy yourself access to items/titles/etc of prestige, even if they don't give you extra power, is P2W. Of course, if an item is only available in a cash shop, then it can by definition not be used to fake Prestige, so cash shop exclusive cosmetics aren't P2W.

    At least that is my view on things. I do find it better than most other perspectives as it doesn't deny companies from making money from their games, but at the same time it doesn't obediently submit to nickle-and-dime tactics. Also, while not completely relevant to this thread, I find P2G (Pay-2-Gamble) to be just as if not more disgusting than P2W.

    Edit: And as you can probably figure out, if using my definition, then yes, buying gold for money is P2W.

     

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon

    This thread is so full of /facepalm I don't know where to begin. One thing is clear, most people seem to have forgotten (or never knew) the actual definition of Pay2Win. This is something that has been repeatedly explained, by various people, including those as well known as TotalBiscuit.

    Pay2Win (P2W) DOES NOT mean 'Pay 2 advantage, any game that lets you buy an advantage, etc'. It might seem like a good definition, but it is FAR TOO BROAD. By that definition literally every MMO ever made (F2P, B2P, and P2P) can be labelled as 'pay2win'. It's meaningless.

    The actual definition of Pay2Win (and no, you won't find it in an online dictionary), is 'buying power with real money'. To help explain this further, here are some recent examples:

    Allods: This is a game, that is legitimately Pay 2 Win. Why? Because once you hit lvl ~20-30+ and start doing PvP you realize that there are some players that are nearly impossible to kill, that basically kill you in 2-3 hits. This isn't because they have epic dungeon gear, it's because they bought it via the cash shop. Most games DO NOT do this anymore.

    Now lets look at a more recent example:

    Neverwinter: This is a game that repeatedly gets labelled 'pay2win'. Why? Because it has a cash shop. That's basically it. The cash shop does give you advantages, but literally none of them are ones you can't get in game without spending a dime. I have multiple 60s, with the best pets, the best gear, and am working on the best tier- weapon & armor enchantments atm. I didn't spend a dime on the game. Yet.. somehow I am now pay2win. I've won plenty of PvP matches (though I will admit the PvP in this game is garbage), even though I have the crappiest mount available in the game. Once I have the AD for it, i'll buy one out of the cash shop.

    That's a pretty stark comparison tbh. The first game literally guaruntees you're victory (short of going afk for 30mins in the middle of combat), the 2nd guaruntees nothing but rather allows you to progress in the game faster.

    - Point being, a smart player can use almost anything in a game to his/her advantage. Even cosmetic items (when painted by such a broad definition) can be considered pay2win. Cooler looking items make you stand out, which can make it easier to meet people, to find groups, etc. Literally no power advantage, but still an advantage none-the-less. A good example of this is GW2. Many top-tier commanders run with super flashy items so that more people follow them. So are cosmetic items now pay2win? Of course not. But with how distorted this definition has become, they may as well be.

    This term used to be used to describe any game that lets paying players easily beat non-paying players. It was an important label, because such games were generally NOT fun. Now? It's being used as a pitchfork against 'insert game I don't like here' to slander it and make people assume it's not a fun game.

  • wildclawwildclaw GothenburgPosts: 46Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    This thread is so full of /facepalm I don't know where to begin. One thing is clear, most people seem to have forgotten (or never knew) the actual definition of Pay2Win. 

    There are lots of different definitions of P2W. That is why the subject draws so much attention. Topics like these discuss which of those definitions have the most solid ground to stand on and which definitions are just crazy.

    And no, "buying power with real money" is not as generally accepted a definition of P2W as you like to seem to think. Lots of people, including myself don't hold to that definition. I think it is flawed for more than one reason. It doesn't factor in prestige as being an important factor in mmos, nor does it consider that it has gameplay impacts on others that scale with the amount of money spent (crafting materials in GW2 are more expensive than it would be if gem to gold conversion didn't exist).

  • ArskaaaArskaaa KauhajokiPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Dont play neverwinter, its totally pay 2 win.
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