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Patch 5.3: The Nail in the Coffin for PvP
fat_taddler
Member Posts: 286
Over the years, I have watched as Blizzard catered to PvE players while we PvP'ers (the only ones actually bringing "war" to Warcraft), have been somewhat neglected.
With patch 5.3, Blizzard has finally managed to get me to stop playing WoW by basically handing PvP superiority over to PvE focused players.
Until now, Blizz had done a pretty good job at providing separate progression for PvP players, including ranks, achievements, and of course gear.
Implementing PVP specific stats ensured that PvE players had no place in our aspects of the game the same way that PvP gear is useless in raids.
Patch 5.3 has officially castrated PvP players by removing all PvP specific stats while capping item levels in all battlegrounds (not just rated) and arenas.
On top of that, Blizz decided not to give PvP gear any sort of replacement stats to compensate which has made PvE gear way more effective for PvP in terms of damage output.
You may be asking, "what about damage mitigation?" Well this is where Blizzard really turned the screws on us by giving all characters 65% resilience regardless of gear. This makes tank specs and PvE tank gear the only viable way to dramatically enhance damage mitigation (through dodge & block).
Well at least we can go tank spec for PvP if we want better damage mitigation, right? You can but in their infinite wisdom, Blizz has also decided to implement a debuff that significantly increases the amount of damage taken by tank spec'd characters in battlegrounds.
I understand that Blizz wants to normalize PvP gear to make it more about skill but don't give PvE players a distinct advantage in the process. Also, if I want skill based PVP, there are plenty of non-sub options out there.
Comments
PvP Power is garbarge, it takes 400 PvP Power to give you a 1% increase in damage to other players. You can achieve far better damage output with most current tier raid gear.
Regarding resilience gems, the benefits are marginal and the prices are now through the roof since they've become the only means to increase resilience. Considering that there are no ways to earn a reasonable amount of gold in PvP, this becomes yet another nail in the coffin for PvP.
Nice try though, I see you've brushed up on your Ghostcrawler talking points.
Battlegrounds, Rated Battlegrounds, and Arenas now have an ilevel cap. All gear will be scaled down to ilevel 496.
Read the patch notes before posting next time
And my main in PvP is a healer.
Been like that on the PTR for a few weeks but we'll let you slide.
Regarding the rest of your post, I modified my post to include the fact that I mainly play a healer (Disc Priest) in PvP so your point about me wanting to "2 shot healers" is not valid.
Play a game that treats pvpers with respect instead.
A guildie ran a lot of tests last night using MATLAB and the following script based on his class's primary stats:
Res=.35; %65% resilience
Armor=.75;%leather
for i=0:4
AgilityGear=11616+500;
CritRating=5263;
Mastery=6223;
PvPPower=14744;
if i==1
AgilityGear=AgilityGear+1;
fprintf('Agility Slope
');
elseif i==2
CritRating=CritRating+1;
fprintf('Crit Rating Slope
');
elseif i==3
Mastery=Mastery+1;
fprintf('Mastery Slope
');
elseif i==4
PvPPower=PvPPower+1;
fprintf('PvP Power Slope
');
end
WeaponDamage=9530;
AgilityTotal=1.05*1.05*1.06*(AgilityGear+110);
AttackPower=(AgilityGear)*2.3357+1231;
CritMultiplier=(1.05+1.666e-5*CritRating+1.317e-5*AgilityTotal);
MasteryMultiplier=1.2504+5.216e-5*Mastery;
PvPPowerMultiplier=1+2.5e-5*PvPPower;
EffectiveWepDamage=WeaponDamage+AttackPower/7;
if i==0
%RakeDamage
RakeInitial=(99+.3*AttackPower)*MasteryMultiplier*CritMultiplier*PvPPowerMultiplier*Res;
%RipDamage
RipInitial=(1713+.242*AttackPower)*MasteryMultiplier*CritMultiplier*PvPPowerMultiplier*Res;
%ShredDamage
ShredInitial=(78+5*EffectiveWepDamage)*CritMultiplier*PvPPowerMultiplier*Res*Armor;
%RavageDamage
RavageInitial=(78+9.5*EffectiveWepDamage)*CritMultiplier*PvPPowerMultiplier*Res*Armor;
else
Average=0;
%RakeDamage
RakeUpdated=(99+.3*AttackPower)*MasteryMultiplier*CritMultiplier*PvPPowerMultiplier*Res;
fprintf('Rake %3.2f ',RakeUpdated-RakeInitial);
Average=Average+RakeWeight*(RakeUpdated-RakeInitial);
%RipDamage
RipUpdated=(1713+.242*AttackPower)*MasteryMultiplier*CritMultiplier*PvPPowerMultiplier*Res;
fprintf('Rip %3.2f ',RipUpdated-RipInitial);
Average=Average+RipWeight*(RipUpdated-RipInitial);
%ShredDamage
ShredUpdated=(78+5*EffectiveWepDamage)*CritMultiplier*PvPPowerMultiplier*Res*Armor;
fprintf('Shred %3.2f ',ShredUpdated-ShredInitial);
Average=Average+ShredWeight*(ShredUpdated-ShredInitial);
%RavageDamage
RavageUpdated=(78+9.5*EffectiveWepDamage)*CritMultiplier*PvPPowerMultiplier*Res*Armor;
fprintf('Ravage %3.2f
',RavageUpdated-RavageInitial);
Average=Average+RavageWeight*(RavageUpdated-RavageInitial);
%Avg
%fprintf('Average %3.2f
', Average);
end
end
MY many years of gaming both PVE and PVP has taught me that they CANNOT co exist on the same platform.Having pvp specific gear is not the answer either,that is just another meaningless grind that is not needed.
PVP should always be straight up fair,no way can you possibly pull that off with rpg class designs..100% impossible.
That is why i can't stand pvp in rpg's it has no satisfaction knowing there is no balance.It is tough enough to play FPS's with just the latency imbalance.
What you need if designing a rpg style is a whole different set of game mechanics and it has to really be well thought out.First of all you need dmg to be equal across the board.You need to create specially designed maps,you need melee/mid range and long range,you need splash damage and combos,preferably several options in combos like 2/3/4 player combos instead of the usual solo combo.
If the game does not offer this setup you are simply playing a game that gives unfair advantages,that is not hardcore that is shallow gaming.Point is Wow NEVER had it right,that is why they keep making changes,they simply do not "get it".
When i play the best pvp game ever UT99,i don't hear players bitching at the game,it is usually at me ,complaining about the way i play or the weapons i use.You see it comes down to the players,not gear or how much time i played and you have CHOICE in weapons,so every play style is there for you to play and get better at.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
So you don't want skill based PvP? Sense makes no
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8874847576
If that is your friend, he is only looking at the disparity concerning world PVP. If it's not, your friend stole the script and you both came to an incorrect, or at the very least, incomplete conclusion.
That script doesn't account for ilvl correction in instanced PVP, so the disparity only applies to world PVP.
We play on an RP-PVP server where world PvP is the primary activity so the fact that PvE gear is now superior to PvP gear for this activity is a serious concern.
I'm assuming you took a moment to read the part of the post where he posts the conclusion which clearly states that the agility on current tier raid gear (522) will produce more damage output compared to the PvP power on the top tier PvP piece.
We also had a lot of conversation in chat regarding this that was not included in the post.
Bottom line, PvE gear is now preferred over PvP gear for WPVP for both damage output and mitigation.
Not all PVPers PVP on RP PVP servers. Your situation, while very personal to you, is also exclusive to you and a very small section of PVPers, specially the competitive crowd. All competitive PVP takes place in instances, not out in the open.
No stats. Is no rpg. Period.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
I am not a dedicated PvP player, i hold a couple of the old titles from way back but only as far as Sergeant as i enjoy a little PvP from time to time. One of the things that has put me off BG's and other PvP related stuff over the past few years has been the fact that you knew for damned sure that you were going to get owned 100% by the guys who had full PvP gear.
Doesn't this flatlining of PvP advantage via gear encourage more people to participate and therefore promote PvP across the board or am i just not seeing where the major issue is? Surely it gives dedicated PvP players more of a chance to show their skill within their own arena?
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
pvp was best in this game when there was ZERO reason to do it.
TM vs SS, all levels welcome
but sure, now it sucks...
It's called paying your dues. Do you honestly think that all of the guys in full PvP gear magically started that way?
This is another problem with the genre in general, everyone wants to be on par with the hardcore players without investing any time and effort.
Gear progression in PvP is just as fair as skill progression. You invest time to improve your character and become more effective at the style of gameplay you enjoy.
We've gotta stop with this entitlement mentality or at least stop disguising it as the "skill vs. gear" argument. I like games where it takes both to be optimal and taking that away isn't doing much to improve the genre.
Can't argue with that. Escorting lower level guys down from SW to get the ships over to Crossroads. Standing on the hills taunting the Horde guys to come out and fight, waves of guys and gals on both sides arriving and leaving creating an ebb and flow of victory from one side to the other.
Good times
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
While i don't agree with 5.3 being "the nail in the coffin for PvP", they certainly could've thought out the problems the changes bring to world PvP, a bit more.
- In BC, I had played Mage/Rogue and while it was good (and a powerful comp), some comps like Druid/Lock totally destroyed us and that was just bullshit, because after we got high enough in rating, it was just pure frustration - earn points very hard just to lose them to a pack of druid/locks. To tell the truth, we also owned warrior/druids easilly so imbalance went both ways.
- In WotLK, I had a friend Retro Paladin and we had huge fun doing 2v2 but we were not the "Best comp" so we couldn't get far from 1900, while when I teamed with Disc Priest it was damn boring, but we climbed rating steadilly.
- In Cata, druid heals were fine, until you want to go competitive rated bg where you're not wanted, because other classes do it better (namely, can save from focus better). And I wanted to heal and I didn't care to level up another char just because Blizz can't get their balance right.
But I digress.
A lot of people had different problem with PVP in WoW. First, you had to farm for gear, which not only was tedious and boring (like, in order to do what I want, I have to spend several weeks doing something I do not want), but also you had to play vs people who have advantage just because they started playing before you did, and have more gear. Second, you had to PVE for gear. And I felt that too.
This update actually made me consider coming back to WoW. Why? Because IMHO, they got two things right:
1. You don't have to constantly be inferior in stats if you were not at max lvl when xpac/new season hit.
Catching up is much easier now. Before, you would have to spend lots of weeks being behind in gear just because someone else started playing before you. Now, I think 1k per week is not enough because you get at least 1800 per week (if calculators are correct), so you will have a disadvantage, but at least its much smaller.
Also, gear purchaseable for honor when you got enough conquest? Why yes. Very good.
2. You don't have to PVE to get gear for PVP.
I think people see it one way - now PVE gear will be better at PVP. You know what, it was good for PVP before. In BC and in WotlK, when I was Rogue, I knew I will always be gimped against another rogue who raids heroics because for rogue, PVE gear was better than PVP gear. And those who got Glaives/top PVE weapons would just wreck shit. We once had a premade BG on WSG vs a team geared with raid items - we could not freaking kill their carrier. Too much mitigation and HP. And their mages and rogues just gibbed people. PVE gear was also always bigger in item levels (or would appear earlier). And legendaries - no such thing in PVP. So nothing really changed here.
However, now when gear is level capped, you would not be able to take your heroic elite epics and legendaries and have a benefit in PVP because you are good at PVE. Because it's capped to the item level PVP gear has. And now that there is PVP Power on items, if the stat is balanced all right, PVP gear will actually be better for PVP than PVE gear because PVE gear will not have this stat. So hopefully PVE legenday weapons will finally be LESS good at PVP than PVP weapons, for the first time in history.
Before, no matter how hard Blizz tried, they could not ever make PVE gear unattractive in PVP because it had flat bonus stats! It was just better, and after you got your desired resi amount, you'd have to get PVE gear to improve. However, now they actually have a way to balance this - because they can tweak PVP Power stat, making it more powerful if PVE gear seems to good in PVP. Why can they do it now and couldn't before? Because item level is capped! So no matter how cool that legendary is, it will be downgraded to your normal weapon level everybody has.
So, can someone explain to me, why this patch is actually bad for PVPers (except for the fact it won't be as easy to pwn pve noobz as it was before?)
I stand to be corrected but didn't you just make an argument for your 'entitlement' to your own niche of the game because you have 'paid your dues'?!? Do you think that all those raid geared people magically started that way as well, did they not pay their dues to collect their gear too?
To be fair across the board, you know that in the game the way it is now you don't need to be fantastic at either to get yourself some decent gear, you just have to invest the time, so is gear that meaningful now anyway?
What you are saying is that a whole swathe of the game community should be locked out of any meaningful involvement in PvP because they have decided to 'pay their dues' in terms of PvE instead, their choice, their loss, is that it? But hasn't that been the problem for a long time, not enough people involved in PvP to give it any meaning within the game anymore?
Am i saying that some level of dedication to yuor particular facet of the game should not be recognised, of course not and that is where i think the titles made a difference all that time back, more people were involved but only those that dedicated their time to PvP and 'paid their dues' if you like were able to achieve those titles, but i still achieved my titles as a PvE orientated player and not a PvP dedicated player because i could still get involved.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
WoW has always offered a solution to be met by reality. Not one time have they ever been able to come close to balancing pvp. Played that game for 6yrs. Every time they patched and changed stats, gear, abilities, etc. it always failed and created more problems. That is why after the Panda invasion I left.
IstrebiteI, i completely agree with your post.
As for the last sentence. I believe the problem this patch brings to the PvP community is in world PvP. Without that item level cap, all those things you were saying about legendaries and epic trinkets ect. will be free to wreak havoc in wPvP.
Now in my opinion, PvP gear should be dominate to PvE gear (or atleast equal) in any kind of PvP, whether that's inside of an arena, or out in the open world. As it stands, PvE gear has a decent advantage in the latter.