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Patch 5.3: The Nail in the Coffin for PvP

2

Comments

  • NobleNerdNobleNerd Wolcott, NYPosts: 671Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    wow's traditional pvp problem: burst + cc = kill

     

    wow's solution: slow down damage.

     

    wow's new problem: they didn't also slow down healers.

     

    wow's new solution: redistribute power across dps.

     

    wow's new end result: clunky balancing at all levels.

     

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

     

    you know what the solution to wow's pvp problems would be ? "in battlegrounds, all character health is increased by 1000%.

     

    problem solved.

    WoW has always offered a solution to be met by reality. Not one time have they ever been able to come close to balancing pvp. Played that game for 6yrs. Every time they patched and changed stats, gear, abilities, etc. it always failed and created more problems. That is why after the Panda invasion I left.

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  • DigitalLeashDigitalLeash Austin, TXPosts: 28Member Uncommon

    IstrebiteI, i completely agree with your post.

    As for the last sentence. I believe the problem this patch brings to the PvP community is in world PvP. Without that item level cap, all those things you were saying about legendaries and epic trinkets ect. will be free to wreak havoc in wPvP.

    Now in my opinion, PvP gear should be dominate to PvE gear (or atleast equal) in any kind of PvP, whether that's inside of an arena, or out in the open world. As it stands, PvE gear has a decent advantage in the latter.

  • fat_taddlerfat_taddler Wanaque, NJPosts: 286Member
    Originally posted by Shadoed
    Originally posted by fat_taddler
     

    I stand to be corrected but didn't you just make an argument for your 'entitlement' to your own niche of the game because you have 'paid your dues'?!? Do you think that all those raid geared people magically started that way as well, did they not pay their dues to collect their gear too?

    To be fair across the board, you know that in the game the way it is now you don't need to be fantastic at either to get yourself some decent gear, you just have to invest the time, so is gear that meaningful now anyway?

    What you are saying is that a whole swathe of the game community should be locked out of any meaningful involvement in PvP because they have decided to 'pay their dues' in terms of PvE instead, their choice, their loss, is that it? But hasn't that been the problem for a long time, not enough people involved in PvP to give it any meaning within the game anymore?

    Am i saying that some level of dedication to yuor particular facet of the game should not be recognised, of course not and that is where i think the titles made a difference all that time back, more people were involved but only those that dedicated their time to PvP and 'paid their dues' if you like were able to achieve those titles, but i still achieved my titles as a PvE orientated player and not a PvP dedicated player because i could still get involved.

     

    Absolutely not, raiders certainly pay their dues and are rewarded the same as PvP players who invest in that aspect of the game.

     

    But you bring up a good point, most players don't expect to go into the latest heroic tuned raid and down the boss on their first try.   However in PvP,  the new mindset is that someone just starting out should somehow be on par with players who have invested a large amount of time and effort to tune their characters for optimal effectiveness in PvP activities.

     

    We've really gotten off topic from my OP.  My concern is more about how PvE gear is now more effective than PvP gear in many situations especially world PvP (which is my guilds primary focus).   

     

    A good debate though, we could probably go on for quite some time.

     

     

  • IstrebiteIIstrebiteI SpbPosts: 266Member
    Originally posted by DigitalLeash

    IstrebiteI, i completely agree with your post.

    As for the last sentence. I believe the problem this patch brings to the PvP community is in world PvP. Without that item level cap, all those things you were saying about legendaries and epic trinkets ect. will be free to wreak havoc in wPvP.

    Now in my opinion, PvP gear should be dominate to PvE gear (or atleast equal) in any kind of PvP, whether that's inside of an arena, or out in the open world. As it stands, PvE gear has a decent advantage in the latter.

    Well, if they balance it so that in areana/rated bg, best PVP gear is by a big margin better than PVE gear, hopefully in WPVP it will be equal.

    And you see, there is a problem with your point (even though I understand why you think that way). See, WPVP is where two worlds - PVPers and PVErs meet. It's not some big place for PVPers only, like in Guild Wars 2, its THE game world. World with quests, pve quests that is, also pve mobs, pve locations. So, I think it is actually okay if in WPVP, best PVE gear is roughly equal to best PVP gear, because otherwise, PVErs won't be able to show their faces outside protected areas to actually do PVE (play versus environment) because people in PVP gear are there to pwn their faces with superior gear.

    Think about it - pve focused player is already at a disadvantage because he's on a different mindset. He's not probably ready for pvp, or at least not as prepared as a player who's out to do some ganking. So if he's also disadvantaged because he didn't spend time farming arenas/bg's... i don't think that's a good idea.

    Of course, if PVE gear is better than PVP gear by a reasonable margin in WPVP, that is a problem, but I think it can be solved by adjusting the level cap (rasing this cap, and consequently, ilvl of pvp items, will tilt balance in PVP items favor, and opposite way for opposite effect).

  • silverreignsilverreign Whitehouse, TXPosts: 401Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by fat_taddler
    Over the years, I have watched as Blizzard catered to PvE players while we PvP'ers (the only ones actually bringing "war" to Warcraft), have been somewhat neglected.  With patch 5.3,  Blizzard has finally managed to get me to stop playing WoW by basically handing PvP superiority over to PvE focused players. Until now, Blizz had done a pretty good job at providing separate progression for PvP players, including ranks, achievements, and of course gear.    Implementing PVP specific stats ensured that PvE players had no place in our aspects of the game the same way that PvP gear is useless in raids.   Patch 5.3 has officially castrated PvP players by removing all PvP specific stats while capping item levels in all battlegrounds (not just rated) and arenas.   On top of that, Blizz decided not to give PvP gear any sort of replacement stats to compensate which has made PvE gear way more effective for PvP in terms of damage output. You may be asking, "what about damage mitigation?"  Well this is where Blizzard really turned the screws on us by giving all characters 65% resilience regardless of gear.   This makes tank specs and PvE tank gear the only viable way to dramatically enhance damage mitigation (through dodge & block). Well at least we can go tank spec for PvP if we want better damage mitigation, right?   You can but in their infinite wisdom, Blizz has also decided to implement a debuff that significantly increases the amount of damage taken by tank spec'd characters in battlegrounds. I understand that Blizz wants to normalize PvP gear to make it more about skill but don't give PvE players a distinct advantage in the process.   Also, if I want skill based PVP, there are plenty of non-sub options out there. 
    this was how blizzard got u to stop playing wow? really? of all the reasons this was it? lmao

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  • silverreignsilverreign Whitehouse, TXPosts: 401Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Rusque
    Vanilla WoW was a good time (bonkers pvp, but still a good time) and they had no pvp stats. Maybe they should just go back to that, I know pvpers love to cry about pve gear, but how about pvpers stop ruining MMO's with their incessant whining and go play counter-strike/dota and let developers make proper MMO's with PvP as an added bonus?
    +1ooooooooo

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  • DigitalLeashDigitalLeash Austin, TXPosts: 28Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IstrebiteI
    Originally posted by DigitalLeash

    IstrebiteI, i completely agree with your post.

    As for the last sentence. I believe the problem this patch brings to the PvP community is in world PvP. Without that item level cap, all those things you were saying about legendaries and epic trinkets ect. will be free to wreak havoc in wPvP.

    Now in my opinion, PvP gear should be dominate to PvE gear (or atleast equal) in any kind of PvP, whether that's inside of an arena, or out in the open world. As it stands, PvE gear has a decent advantage in the latter.

    Well, if they balance it so that in areana/rated bg, best PVP gear is by a big margin better than PVE gear, hopefully in WPVP it will be equal.

    And you see, there is a problem with your point (even though I understand why you think that way). See, WPVP is where two worlds - PVPers and PVErs meet. It's not some big place for PVPers only, like in Guild Wars 2, its THE game world. World with quests, pve quests that is, also pve mobs, pve locations. So, I think it is actually okay if in WPVP, best PVE gear is roughly equal to best PVP gear, because otherwise, PVErs won't be able to show their faces outside protected areas to actually do PVE (play versus environment) because people in PVP gear are there to pwn their faces with superior gear.

    Think about it - pve focused player is already at a disadvantage because he's on a different mindset. He's not probably ready for pvp, or at least not as prepared as a player who's out to do some ganking. So if he's also disadvantaged because he didn't spend time farming arenas/bg's... i don't think that's a good idea.

    Of course, if PVE gear is better than PVP gear by a reasonable margin in WPVP, that is a problem, but I think it can be solved by adjusting the level cap (rasing this cap, and consequently, ilvl of pvp items, will tilt balance in PVP items favor, and opposite way for opposite effect).

    Good points. Sadly, the way the item levels have been sorted out this patch, top PvE gear simply wipes the floor with PvP gear out in the open. That just rubs me the wrong way.

    In the past, to be effective in wPvP, you worked your way through BGs, arenas ect. to get that epic PvP gear. You did PvP, to be effective at it. Now, you work your way...through raids? Bleh

  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,556Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Arthasm
    Skills. No gear. Period.

     

    No stats. Is no rpg. Period.

    This.  People that want 100% balance need to go play a console game.  I could never figure out how the "skill only" crowd ended up in MMORPG's.  RPG and character building is not for you, go play a super shallow console game where everyone is the same.

     

    Blizz should have separated the skill abilities for instanced PvP and PvE/ open world PvP from the beginning.  Now they have a mess on their hands.  I have no idea why MMO's makers refuse to separate PvE and PvP abilities in a primarily instanced PvP game.

     

    PvP attempts at balance have gutted PvE abilities since the beginning.  Really the only answer is to separate things for the good of both PvP and PvE.

  • fivorothfivoroth LondonPosts: 3,653Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    MY many years of gaming both PVE and PVP has taught me that they CANNOT co exist on the same platform.Having pvp specific gear is not the answer either,that is just another meaningless grind that is not needed.

    PVP should always be straight up fair,no way can you possibly pull that off with rpg class designs..100% impossible.

    That is why i can't stand pvp in rpg's it has no satisfaction knowing there is no balance.It is tough enough to play FPS's with just the latency imbalance.

    What you need if designing a rpg style is a whole different set of game mechanics and it has to really be well thought out.First of all you need dmg to be equal across the board.You need to create specially designed maps,you need melee/mid range and long range,you need splash damage and combos,preferably several options in combos like 2/3/4 player combos instead of the usual solo combo.

    If the game does not offer this setup you are simply playing a game that gives unfair advantages,that is not hardcore that is shallow gaming.Point is Wow NEVER had it right,that is why they keep making changes,they simply do not "get it".

    When i play the best pvp game ever UT99,i don't hear players bitching at the game,it is usually at me ,complaining about the way i play or the weapons i use.You see it comes down to the players,not gear or how much time i played and you have CHOICE in weapons,so every play style is there for you to play and get better at.

    I think that RPGs can be very good games for PvP as long as you give everyone access to all skills/items etc. So everyone is playing on a equal footing. Also what games should balance around is team play not stupid 1v1s. 1v1 can't be balanced of course as different classes have different abilities. Only mirror 1v1 are "balanced". GW1 did this very well. The only thing they should have done is have all skills/items unlocked right off the bat like GW2 did.

    FPS games are "fair" and "balanced" but they are very simplistic and lack depth in the tactics department imo. They are all about twitch response gaming, control and very basic co-ordination. RPGs have different classes, skill builds and item builds and as a result have the potential for much more depth. Look at Dota, it has tons of classes and everyone plays on an equal footing and I think it has way much more depth than any FPS game. FPS games focus too much on shooting and too little on tactics. I would pick Dota or SC2 as the ultimate form of PvP game any time over a game like CoD/CS/BF.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • EpicentEpicent Pierre Part, LAPosts: 647Member
    You would think after 8 years they would have this fine tuned by now. The fact that they keep changing the game around completely disgust me. I hope they lose even more subs.
  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon

    That would be greatest news for me if i were playing WoW. I always hated games which separated PvP from PvE as i like to do both and hate mindless grind. I would even say i hate those acronyms as they became a sole definition of current mmo(rpg)s. 

     

    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Arthasm
    Skills. No gear. Period.

     

    No stats. Is no rpg. Period.

     

    RPG is not about numbers. Excell is.

  • SulaaSulaa nPosts: 1,151Member Common
    Hint:  If you're looking for arena type of PVP, maybe it's a time to play actual lobby mutliplayer PVP games that focus on this and do it good, instead of playing an mmorpg ?   Just saying.
  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 802Member Uncommon

    You can't implement any kind of balanced and equal ground PvP into a game where your only purpose is to gain power stat and gear wise.

    Arenas and Battlegrounds are ok if you dont have any kind of PvP gear in a game. Those who have the best gear from dungeons, raids and faction reputations are on the top, and rightly so. They have played the game and succeed.

    Wanna play PvP where player skill matters? Go play CS, LoL, Moba, Dota, or whatever but leave MMORPGs alone.

  • IstrebiteIIstrebiteI SpbPosts: 266Member
    Originally posted by deniter

    You can't implement any kind of balanced and equal ground PvP into a game where your only purpose is to gain power stat and gear wise.

    Arenas and Battlegrounds are ok if you dont have any kind of PvP gear in a game. Those who have the best gear from dungeons, raids and faction reputations are on the top, and rightly so. They have played the game and succeed.

    Wanna play PvP where player skill matters? Go play CS, LoL, Moba, Dota, or whatever but leave MMORPGs alone.

    Hmm? MMORPG is massive multiplayer online roleplaying game. RPG does not equal item progression, it equals playing a role. It means the game is supposed to be more than just a mechanic (unlike Minesweeper or Pinball) but rather have a character that you control, character you can play a role of, not just an avatar/player figurine (unlike Super Mario).

    Why should not MMORPG have PVP where skill matters? Skill should not be the ONLY thing that matters, of course, there should be a sense of progression to it, but still, you're saying PVP that has SKILL >> GEAR has no place MMORPGs?

  • deniterdeniter LappeenrantaPosts: 802Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by IstrebiteI
    Originally posted by deniter

    You can't implement any kind of balanced and equal ground PvP into a game where your only purpose is to gain power stat and gear wise.

    Arenas and Battlegrounds are ok if you dont have any kind of PvP gear in a game. Those who have the best gear from dungeons, raids and faction reputations are on the top, and rightly so. They have played the game and succeed.

    Wanna play PvP where player skill matters? Go play CS, LoL, Moba, Dota, or whatever but leave MMORPGs alone.

    Hmm? MMORPG is massive multiplayer online roleplaying game. RPG does not equal item progression, it equals playing a role. It means the game is supposed to be more than just a mechanic (unlike Minesweeper or Pinball) but rather have a character that you control, character you can play a role of, not just an avatar/player figurine (unlike Super Mario).

    Why should not MMORPG have PVP where skill matters? Skill should not be the ONLY thing that matters, of course, there should be a sense of progression to it, but still, you're saying PVP that has SKILL >> GEAR has no place MMORPGs?

    What i'm saying is in computer RPG your character is the one that does the actions, not you the player. If your character is more powerful than the one controlled by another player you're having PvP against, then you should have an upper hand. But, since these are games we're playing, they should always have the skill aspect as well. Games are all about challenge (to me they are), so why shouldn't this apply to PvP like it does to PvE.

    But..

    PvP in MMOs should never be equal or fair like it is f.ex in Counter Strike. 

    There's another thread on these forums about the 'fluidiness' of combat in WoW which is one of the reason WoW became so popular. It's very easy to see why it attracted massive amount of PvP players, and why it was worth to refine the PvP aspect to cater for these players.

    In an RPG, those who have beaten dragons, demi-liches, giants, and beholders have found the most powerful of weapons, armors and spells. They should win at least 9 of 10 fights against that Joe the Warrior, who killed a hundread untrained and poorly equipped enemy soldiers in Arathi Basin.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,142Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fat_taddler

    ...

    With patch 5.3,  Blizzard has finally managed to get me to stop playing WoW by basically handing PvP superiority over to PvE focused players.

     ...

    Ah, now I understand, your "superioritiy" is in geopardy. Wow.

  • WhitebeardsWhitebeards TokyoPosts: 778Member
    If i had a nickel for every time someone put 'nail in the coffin' in title thread for WOW in past 5 or so years..i would be filthy rich.
  • cribettcribett manchesterPosts: 107Member Uncommon
    Coming from an avid PvP'er Wow's PvP has been a joke for a long time before this change , So to see this is no surprise . Its become an impossible task for them to balance anything . GAME OVER
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,608Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by fat_taddler

     

    ... handing PvP superiority over to PvE focused players.

    That made me laugh.

    So...  clueless PvErs who know nothing about the finer aspects of PvP will now have superiority just because of better PvE gear?

    I guess that settles the age-old debate about WOW PvP: there is no skill in it--it's just the gear image

  • red_cruiserred_cruiser Milwaukee, WIPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by fat_taddler

     

    ... handing PvP superiority over to PvE focused players.

    That made me laugh.

    So...  clueless PvErs who know nothing about the finer aspects of PvP will now have superiority just because of better PvE gear?

    I guess that settles the age-old debate about WOW PvP: there is no skill in it--it's just the gear image

    It depends on your point of view  and the end objective of your argument.  "Why do I win >75% of my games?" - WoW is a skill based game where gear doesn't matter.. just ignore the 9 other guys all from the same server, or the fact that we are all dressed the same.  "Why do I lose >50% of my games?" because Blizzard is ruining PvP handing over my superiority  to the PvE players. 

  • red_cruiserred_cruiser Milwaukee, WIPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    This guy's attitude that PvP and PvE should be two completely separate games; like opposite lanes of a highway-only mixing with disastrous results- is really annoying, and I'll admit, makes me not want to listen to a single word he says.  If he had his way, getting the best PvP gear would no doubt be a weekly commitment of 20 to 30 hours that would prevent anyone but the most lifeless... I mean, dedicated... player from ever being able to compete with him on a level playing field. 
  • ThorbrandThorbrand West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 1,198Member
    I thought the nail in the coffin for PvP was when the introduced BGs. Didn't think PvP matter anymore in WOW since it was just dumbed down after that.
  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mardukk
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Arthasm
    Skills. No gear. Period.

     

    No stats. Is no rpg. Period.

    This.  People that want 100% balance need to go play a console game.  I could never figure out how the "skill only" crowd ended up in MMORPG's.  RPG and character building is not for you, go play a super shallow console game where everyone is the same.

     

    Blizz should have separated the skill abilities for instanced PvP and PvE/ open world PvP from the beginning.  Now they have a mess on their hands.  I have no idea why MMO's makers refuse to separate PvE and PvP abilities in a primarily instanced PvP game.

     

    PvP attempts at balance have gutted PvE abilities since the beginning.  Really the only answer is to separate things for the good of both PvP and PvE.

    I completely agree with this.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • nbtscannbtscan Phoenix, AZPosts: 774Member Uncommon

    I think everyone should just fight naked with only their weapons.

     

    I think WoW's primary focus has always been PVE.  They do a lot of work towards PVP, but unless you play a game that focuses solely on PVP I don't think you'll have a good experience with it.  One of my gripes in WoW was how they were always tweaking abilities because they were overpowered in PVP.  This usually had a negative effect on PVE play.  As someone else pointed out, apparently until this change PVP was heavily gear based.  If you were in full PVE gear you had little chance against someone in PVP gear, despite the difference in skill level.  PVP should be more revolved around individual skill rather than what gear you're wearing IMO.

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    playing field is nowhere near balanced.

     

    damage went down, healing remained unchanged.

     

    when defenses are greater than offenses, you have a stalemate. ever seen two resto druids duel ?

    yep.  I'm a resto druid and I've dueled another one, the lowest either of us got the other is about 85% hp, which was followed by fully healed lol.

     

    I was never a big fan of PvP in any game, but this stinks.  I always thought that WoW was good because it kept the PvE and PvP separate.  I do like open world PvP when I want it, but as a druid I believe you should have multiple gear sets for whatever you want to do.  I can remember back in vanilla I had 3 sets of gear and an addon to change them all quickly, now you don't need an add on, and the gear is so easy to get, you can get 5 sets of gear in like 2 months.

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