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gear score

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  • ego13ego13 Reno, NVPosts: 267Member

    You can easily tell the people that are here just to "fight on their side" just because and those that are just mediocre players that don't like being segregated.  Both sides don't like GS for basically the same reason, but one group doesn't or hasn't played Neverwinter at all.

     

    In NW it is SIMPLE to hit 60 and buy a couple pieces of gear off the AH, using Astral Diamonds that you can easily get just from daily invocation, that brings you to at least the minimum requirements for Cloak Tower Epic.

     

    After that it's not a matter of luck, or ninjaing, or anything of the sort.  You will get enough gear for the next ones soon enough.  OR you'll earn enough Astral Diamonds to buy some more pieces off the AH, either way you'll still progress.

     

    It's a different system than has been done before and while their GS isn't perfect, it works.

     

    Again, if you don't like or care about GS, don't use it to segregate.  The beauty of it is that the people that are using it, you'll know and you won't have to group with them.  It does a great job of keeping the people that don't want to waste their time(GS embracers) away from those that don't mind wasting their time failing (GS haters).

    Just because every car has similar features doesn't mean that Ferraris are copies of Model Ts. Progress requires failure and refining.

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  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    I've beverages seen this gearscore nonsense before.

    But then I mostly stick to pvp orientated games to avoid all the "l33tzors"
  • centkincentkin Asbury, NJPosts: 943Member Uncommon

    What I dislike is the lack of customization.  When you get to a tier 2 equipment vs tier 3 vs tier 4 you get stuck using EXACTLY what the devs want you to use and you can't have any individuality at all.  Usually until you hit raid gear you can focus your equipment where you want it.  If you want a huge block value, you can get it.  If you prefer high hit points, or to be a tank who can do some damage you are allowed to tinker your gear to achieve what you want.  Once you hit the tiered equipment levels then (like in say rift) you end up sacrificing it all for toughness and your block drops with every piece of new equipment you get.  It doesnt get better until much later.  Plus equipment systems like this can force you into different playstyles -- IE tier 4 might have a block focus but tier 5 is all about the hit points and tier 6 has better resistances but is really lousy in parties compared to tier 5. 

    I remember back to Everquest 1 where the raids were not structured in quite that way (yes you had a certain order to some things but sometimes the best piece of raid equipment especially if you catered to a style was not from the most recent raid, and some equipment was far far rarer than others).

  • VolkmarVolkmar EspooPosts: 2,496Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Cirin
    Originally posted by ipeka
    Originally posted by cheeseheads
    will this game have gear score built in like neverwinter? 

    most likely yes, but raid recruiters should totally have a different mindset on their requirement checklist . This game heavily requires high degree of awareness  considering how  the combat gameplay works.
    Having 40 man raid without some sort of chance for progression rewards would be just killing the reason to have a raid , i just don't see how they can pull no better gear as  rewards. Cosmetics are nice but we are living in a real mmorpg life , players want shiny stuffs.

    Then again the raid is going to be different than WoW's tank&spank run, seeing the latest devspeak about movement  convince me . You dont just get away from red stuffs on the ground anymore ,  rolling and double jumping definitely takes a role in raiding .

    I would agree if it didn't have the "Idiot Boxes" on the ground letting you know exactly where and what the ability is going to hit.

     

    I can't wait for Wildstar, however, to try and glorify the amount of skill that will be required is silly.

    GW2: mobs do abilities that you have to see the subtle nuance an move out of the immediate area or sometimes the circle on the ground (hate that they added these).

    Tera: has a telegraph system but doesn't give you a CUTOUT ON THE GROUND of where to avoid it.

    Wildstar: has a telegraph system ALONG with a CUTOUT ON THE GROUND so you couldn't possibly get hit by it unless you are afk or just don't care.

     

    Even Neverwinter doesn't hand-hold this much. :(

     

    Hopefully they'll prove me wrong, and I'll be there supporting them the whole time, but this was a HUGE letdown to me.

     

     

    OP: Yes...GS will exist, in every game forever in some form.  Get used to it.  Those of us who want to continually progress, improve, and not waste our time filling groups only to kick people for not knowing basic mechanics will always use it.  I have NEVER seen a good player complain about GS, only those that *think* they're better than they are, wish they were, or aren't happy that they can't see all of the game because they are entitled to see it since they're a paying customer.

    I would agree, if I would have not watched the Telegraph video for Wildstar and seen how crazy those "cutout on the ground" actually gets. No, the fact they are there does not make it easy to avoid.. it makes it POSSIBLE to avoid

    Without them, the monsters powers would be limited to quite basic shapes. Either a circle around them, a cone in front of them, or a line because you cannot see where the attack land, so you just have the telegraph from the mob  to tell you what attack it is doing. (or else you would know it is attack X but you do not know the pattern so cannot really avoid it)

    Wildstar permits to advance mobs attack with loads of circles all over, or rectangles here and there, spikes, triangles etc. Much more variety in attacks are possible and variety is the spice of life and MMOs.

    "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"



  • SnigerknudSnigerknud hedenstedPosts: 60Member
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    being afriad of gearscore is silly.

    gearscore doesn't tell me you're good or bad, but it tells me you put a few minutes into getting yourself ready for being a key player in a group. If you can't do that, the group does not want you.

     

     

    +1..

     

  • NikopolNikopol The ZonePosts: 626Member Uncommon

    I don't like the concept of gear score, and it's not necessarily because I think giving such weight to gear is bad. Gear mostly means you've worked for it, and to me that means something. It's to be commended.

    The thing is, it shouldn't be the only thing. What I've seen is, it just makes for lazy socialization and groups and raid leaders just pick by the numbers, whereas they should pick by attitude, concentration, and knowledge, too. And right gear instead of mere gear sum total numerical value. If you put a single number on gear, people just take a look at it (along with maybe an achievement) and go "OK".

    Want to make sure your group is well-geared as a raid leader? Then put in some work and inspect the gear throughout. Yes, on every single character. That way picking players will take some time (as it should) and everyone will learn to take note of each other's attitude as well - so as not to waste that time they're putting in.

    You make people too easy, people become inconsequential. People should never be easy. :)

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,538Member Uncommon

    Gear score in itself is no problem. The problem is when a game becomes so gear dependant that users feel they need a gear score. That just shows lazy game design. Especially now that the devs are emphasizing on how moving is so important. If you add crazy gear inflation to that, then the moving only stays important mainly for players with crap gear. Which is silly.

    So I really hope we don't have a need for a gear score tool.

    For once I would like to see a twitchbased MMO and not another crappy hybrid of gear based and playerskill based.

  • tordurbartordurbar Alexandria, VAPosts: 429Member
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk

     

    I hate gearscore and DPS meters with an insane and fiery passion.  While I main healers and tanks, it has always annoyed me how things have changed in WoW for (my opinion) the worse with the increasing popularity of these addons.  Granted, it's the playerbase and how they use them, and not that the actual systems themselves are bad (and if used in a positive fashion, can probably help raid leaders).

     

    People as a whole no longer take classes for mechanics or skills or for people who employ utility appropriately, but rather for their maximized DPS and those player's who want to stroke their egos.  Encounters are then just made into "avoid this, do this for max damage" as opposed to people having specific jobs to do and accomplish.  Tank's aggro was increased a thousand fold because DPS don't want to hold back and lose the damage wars, utilities that could help the entire raid and increase over all team DPS are tossed aside in lieu of personal DPS for bragging rights, and in general any interesting mechanics that are released for classes are also ignored for speed kills and the before mentioned (it also doesn't help if a game institutes a rage timer, as this also contributes to the above).

     

    It wouldn't be out of the league of possibilities that such things have devolved World of Warcraft into what it is today.  When such things did not exist (or hold such prominence) we had the golden years of WoW.  But now everything is crafted to a fine point, and raids are made with these systems in mind as opposed to plain old utility and group tactics.

     

    In organized groups whereby only leaders use these systems (or are allowed to post them), people can just focus on doing their job and playing support if it helps the group more than just pure DPS.  But the whole pug system is ruined by the implementation of these things as that's all pugs (which, sadly 95% of the people play with) basically are within the game.  If the game has a dungeon finder of some sort, it may be more beneficial as a whole (or the majority) just to leave out such things, and just allow individual inspections.  It's best for an organized group not to skip processes of selection, anyhow, and extra questions could be asked to ensure they're quality players than rather an inflated score whereby they could wear gear for another spec while you check their score.  Organized groups will likely have the same people anyway once the hassle of getting a group together is finished, and one could just as simply say "we require x amount of epics" as opposed to saying "we require x gear score".  People will try to pass through anyway, so it's always good to check their gear to make sure they won't play the whole "switcharoo" on you.

     

    Though this is just if you are thinking of the overall health of the game and not just the convenience of the less than .10% (the recruiters) who will be working hard finding members anyway.  

    Fantastic response!!! 110% agree.

  • monarc333monarc333 New York, NYPosts: 615Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cheeseheads
    will this game have gear score built in like neverwinter? 

    Gear score gives rise to elitism. Why would we want that attitude in a game?

     

  • monarc333monarc333 New York, NYPosts: 615Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tordurbar
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk

     

    I hate gearscore and DPS meters with an insane and fiery passion.  While I main healers and tanks, it has always annoyed me how things have changed in WoW for (my opinion) the worse with the increasing popularity of these addons.  Granted, it's the playerbase and how they use them, and not that the actual systems themselves are bad (and if used in a positive fashion, can probably help raid leaders).

     

    People as a whole no longer take classes for mechanics or skills or for people who employ utility appropriately, but rather for their maximized DPS and those player's who want to stroke their egos.  Encounters are then just made into "avoid this, do this for max damage" as opposed to people having specific jobs to do and accomplish.  Tank's aggro was increased a thousand fold because DPS don't want to hold back and lose the damage wars, utilities that could help the entire raid and increase over all team DPS are tossed aside in lieu of personal DPS for bragging rights, and in general any interesting mechanics that are released for classes are also ignored for speed kills and the before mentioned (it also doesn't help if a game institutes a rage timer, as this also contributes to the above).

     

    It wouldn't be out of the league of possibilities that such things have devolved World of Warcraft into what it is today.  When such things did not exist (or hold such prominence) we had the golden years of WoW.  But now everything is crafted to a fine point, and raids are made with these systems in mind as opposed to plain old utility and group tactics.

     

    In organized groups whereby only leaders use these systems (or are allowed to post them), people can just focus on doing their job and playing support if it helps the group more than just pure DPS.  But the whole pug system is ruined by the implementation of these things as that's all pugs (which, sadly 95% of the people play with) basically are within the game.  If the game has a dungeon finder of some sort, it may be more beneficial as a whole (or the majority) just to leave out such things, and just allow individual inspections.  It's best for an organized group not to skip processes of selection, anyhow, and extra questions could be asked to ensure they're quality players than rather an inflated score whereby they could wear gear for another spec while you check their score.  Organized groups will likely have the same people anyway once the hassle of getting a group together is finished, and one could just as simply say "we require x amount of epics" as opposed to saying "we require x gear score".  People will try to pass through anyway, so it's always good to check their gear to make sure they won't play the whole "switcharoo" on you.

     

    Though this is just if you are thinking of the overall health of the game and not just the convenience of the less than .10% (the recruiters) who will be working hard finding members anyway.  

    Fantastic response!!! 110% agree.

    1000% agree! Hah!

  • EiviEivi DundeePosts: 96Member
    15 mins til Questions with Wildstar Creative Director. Go ask him :)

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  • Br3akingDawnBr3akingDawn a City, CAPosts: 1,357Member Uncommon
    yes, please. I like to be over 9000.

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    being afriad of gearscore is silly.

     

    getting kicked after first boss and being saved to the lockout is infinitely worse.

     

    players want to impose a certain degree of standard over their run to limit abuse and bad experiences. In a sense, this is the last semblance of community enforced policing that remains in MMOs.

     

    without this we're in a wasteland of 'queue for dungeon' automatic pugging where nobody says a word and provides no sense of group effort despite being a group event.

     

    you think gearscore is bad...try leading groups without it.

     

    but these posts never come from Group leaders. It's always the "I don't do crap in my group, i want them to carry me" crowd. Well guess what. We don't want to carry you. If doing two attunment 5mans was too difficult for you and had to whine until developers stopped making attunments, now you answer to the community, who will not be whined into submission so easily.

     

    I was there before and after gearscore, before and after attunments. And from what I've seen, it's better with than without. When the tank and healers do the entire nightbane fight and then the group can't kill Aran, something must exist to keep the ill-prepared out of content that they are not yet prepared for.

     

    gearscore doesn't tell me you're good or bad, but it tells me you put a few minutes into getting yourself ready for being a key player in a group. If you can't do that, the group does not want you.

     

     

     leading raids was done for many years before gear score.  It's a crutch for very weak leaders who use it as an excuse.  It doesn't lead to better results for the community as idiots use it badly.  Good/Great leaders know how to do it without GS. 

  • hMJemhMJem Marysville, WAPosts: 465Member

    There was GearScore before there was GearScore. It was called inspecting the guy before you invite him to the Raid group. I'm sorry, but if you think GearScore created this new wave of having gear pre-requisites, they already existed by the players themselves. A lot of Raids, gear is 90% the determining factor of your use. You cant have 80% worse gear than a guy and outplay your way to being more useful. This isnt a fighting game, its an MMORPG. Yeah blah blah arenas take skill, but there isnt a games PvE that is difficult mechanically. There isnt "tech skill" like competitive games. You cant outplay your way to make up for a lack of gear when gear often times is the biggest necessity in raids.

     

    it saves everyones time. "Fly over here, then I'll inspect you" "Oh, you didnt have good enough gear, sorry, no invite, sorry for ywasting your time!"

  • blastermasterblastermaster Cap-aux-Meules, QCPosts: 149Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hMJem

    There was GearScore before there was GearScore. It was called inspecting the guy before you invite him to the Raid group. I'm sorry, but if you think GearScore created this new wave of having gear pre-requisites, they already existed by the players themselves. A lot of Raids, gear is 90% the determining factor of your use. You cant have 80% worse gear than a guy and outplay your way to being more useful. This isnt a fighting game, its an MMORPG. Yeah blah blah arenas take skill, but there isnt a games PvE that is difficult mechanically. There isnt "tech skill" like competitive games. You cant outplay your way to make up for a lack of gear when gear often times is the biggest necessity in raids.

     

    it saves everyones time. "Fly over here, then I'll inspect you" "Oh, you didnt have good enough gear, sorry, no invite, sorry for ywasting your time!"

     

    Yes, but as stated, GS does'nt really take the character's build and play style of the user into account, nor the utilities that he might be bringing to the table.  You could prefer someone with a GS, that is not dressed at all for the role he should be doing.  Inspecting gave the raid leader a chance to know exactly what he was looking at and to better determine roles for everyone based on this. It also brought interesting discussion as to why slot this instead of that,etc.  

    But I think it's a debate that can't be won, either side has it's list of pros and cons, and implementation (or not) of the mechanic in a game will always frustrate the opposite side.

    As for myself, I don't mind it. It serves it's purpose cause it lets me know "dudes"  who get high on this kind of thing.. They are usually the ones who run raids and instances like they are military operations that are a matter of (real) life and death... Not that there is anything wrong with getting your fun from this, but it's not how/why I play games anymore... well, not since I have a job,a house and a family to care for anyways..

  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,473Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by hMJem

    There was GearScore before there was GearScore. It was called inspecting the guy before you invite him to the Raid group. I'm sorry, but if you think GearScore created this new wave of having gear pre-requisites, they already existed by the players themselves. A lot of Raids, gear is 90% the determining factor of your use. You cant have 80% worse gear than a guy and outplay your way to being more useful. This isnt a fighting game, its an MMORPG. Yeah blah blah arenas take skill, but there isnt a games PvE that is difficult mechanically. There isnt "tech skill" like competitive games. You cant outplay your way to make up for a lack of gear when gear often times is the biggest necessity in raids.

     

    it saves everyones time. "Fly over here, then I'll inspect you" "Oh, you didnt have good enough gear, sorry, no invite, sorry for ywasting your time!"

    Semantics.  Good leaders didn't need it.  It caters to the lazy and ezmode players which we have had way too much of imo.  Perhaps the old school raid leaders have been trained to be lazy and ezmode now?

  • ThreshThresh Waterloo, ONPosts: 52Member
    Use moderns science of statistics kids. Suppose you want to fillout a dps spot. you have 2 choices.  A guy who barely hit 60 full of green gear or someone who has played the game a year longer and has epic gear. Sure thing, it might end with that green guy is extremely skilled and purple guy is total newb. But would you bet that one out randomly selected guys with green gear is any better or worse than out of randomly selected purple gear guys ? I guarantee you if you average 10 out 100 selected green gear guys will be far less effected then average of 10 out 100 selected purple gear guys, even though there might be some exceptions here and there. As a raid leader who only faces with the decision to select a random from green or purple area, which one you would select ?
  • DemalisDemalis Drumheller, ABPosts: 134Member

    Ok I don't really mind the gear score. There are a tonne of different ways to check if a player is ready for the raid, the gear score is just one of them. If you think you can sneak your way into a good raid group, with no gear score(the proper lvl amount) you are wrong. But if perchance you do think you have deceived  your way into such a group, thanks for the laugh. Btw I have hosted raids, always pug on an alt, and just for kicks.  When I have six different tells from players in the raid, saying I am making a mistake, I usually side with them.

    However, if the player is close enough, after I inspect them I will side with the noob. I had a real hard time when I first started raiding, and it was a turn off to never be good enough, elitism is not healthy for a community. On the flip side, hardcore raiding is done in a guild not in pugs.

  • DjildjameshDjildjamesh maasdijkPosts: 406Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dogblaster
    Originally posted by Yaevindusk

    Though this is just if you are thinking of the overall health of the game and not just the convenience of the less than .10% (the recruiters) who will be working hard finding members anyway.  

    If i am not mistaken. Raids in Wildstar are for most hc raiders and not for everyone like in wow ;) And GS usually was not the problem for them. It was usually problem for avarage/casual players.

    + I think you didnt play pre GS wow when you say thats the reason for what wow is today. Gs was there from release, players had to do the job instead and inspect others more ... thats all

    uh, no mate.

    I am against any form of Gearscore myself basicly because gearscore is a dumb man's way of inspecting players. All Gearscore does is rate someones gear on ilvl's  and gems (at least it does in WoW). What happened as a result was that people started wearing PvP gear in PvE and gem them with the cheapest gems on the market to cheat the system and to get a higher gearscore rating. Someone that geared the way he should be geared might have allot less gearscore BUT will put out higher DPS.  I played WoW when there were almost no addons and i must say DBM (deadly boss mods) KTM/threadmeters, DPS meters and ESPECIALLLY gearscore ruined allot of the fun for me.... and yes i did raid the high end raids in multiple expansions.  So uhm ... yes im against :)

  • StuddleyStuddley Scottville, MIPosts: 37Member
    Hmmm... Maybe they will end up going to your house and seeing what trophies are hanging on your walls.
  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    Gear score, a great way to create a community full of douche bags.
  • PanzerbasePanzerbase Chicago, ILPosts: 423Member
    Gear score: For the incompetent raid leader who is so bad as to need a crutch.
  • BladestromBladestrom edinburghPosts: 4,941Member Uncommon
    Before gear score players who are new to raids got a foot in the door, and we're usually supported by the raid when they realised the player was struggling. Now we have Gs/must hav achievement and no supportive team play, another nail in the coffin.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • Bama1267Bama1267 Waterloo, NYPosts: 1,847Member
    Originally posted by Bladestrom
    Before gear score players who are new to raids got a foot in the door, and we're usually supported by the raid when they realised the player was struggling. Now we have Gs/must hav achievement and no supportive team play, another nail in the coffin.

     Before gear score, they noticed you were struggling ... checked your gear and kicked you out. Honestly the only thing GS does is take out the middle man  looking for poorly geared players. The only thing not having GS would do ... is hopefully have a lazy raid leader and hes not checking gear ... or the gear is so close he cant tell. In most cases If it was close they at least gave it a go. For players who play above their gear ... it's probably a plus not to have it. Myself, i really don't care.

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Panzerbase
    Gear score: For the incompetent raid leader who is so bad as to need a crutch.

    mhmmm.

     

    funny. newbies are afraid of gearscore, yet they don't think of newbie raid leaders...

     

    but then again I see it all the time from today's players.

     

    "me and the other million casuals like me  bla bla bla" like he gives a crap about the others like him. He's using them to backup his point out of self-interest only. As soon as he's in game with them he's doing what the average looking-for-group player does with his teammates.

     

    If you don't like gearscore you can choose not to look at it, you can lead your own groups however you choose. Let other people do the same.

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