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I am just tired of all the killing and war...

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  • monstermmomonstermmo Glendale, CAPosts: 1,062Member

    "Becoming"? Games have always been like this.

    You can always play some Angry Birds or Farmville. =)

    Jeremiah 8:21 I weep for the hurt of my people; I stand amazed, silent, dumb with grief.
    Join me on Raptr Steam Facebook Twitter Gameverse

  • MindTriggerMindTrigger La Quinta, CAPosts: 2,596Member
    Originally posted by picommander
    I'm absolutely with you here but what you are asking for needs a lot more imagination and some skill from the developers. These days devs seem way too focused on graphic engines and how to wrench out the last bit of performance. Gameplay has become so simplistic, generic and replaceable while it should be the main focus on it. But hey, if it sells...

    There was a little known game that failed pretty much before even getting out of the gate because the developers couldn't deliver.  The concept was awesome, in my opinion.

    It was called SEED:

    Having successfully colonized the Moon and Mars, humanity was looking to spread far across the universe. The creation of ram scoop propulsion made this dream a reality.

    Five seed ships were built, each a kilometer long and populated with machinery designed to terraform a suitable planet. Humans would not ride along for the journey; instead, DNA codes, sperm, and eggs were carried along in cryocoolers to be hatched by the TAU computers at the appropriate time.

    The TAU computers also carried a wealth of human knowledge. This was the subject of a long and heated debate on what should be included. Finally, it was decided to make the colonies idealist societies; therefore, references to wars and violence were not included.

    After searching the universe for several years, the first suitable planet was spotted near the star Beta Hydri 24.4 light years from the Sun. Probes indicated that the planet had an atmosphere, water and living micro organisms. It was to be the destination of the first seed ship.

    However, something went wrong and suddenly the colony has found itself on a planet that has not been terraformed, as was the plan, and without contact to earth.

    I don't know how it would have actually ended up if the developers didn't fail, but I imagined it being a survival game highlighting politics, community and interdependence.  There was talk of having to explore the planet to survive, which could have led to any number of interesting game play interactions, PvE, alien technology, etc.  The devs said they wanted the players to help pave the way for the future of the game by how they played it.

    If someone would crowd fund a game like this, I'd be all over it.  I do like to have some element of conflict in the game, especially with survival being a main theme.  I don't mind combat /  war in games, but it just gets old when that is all there is.  Again though, we're basically talking about a theme park game where people are pretty free to play as they choose.

    A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,916Member Uncommon
    Why not go play the SIm's or something like that? There are plenty of non-combat oriented games out there, hell wanna be a farmer? Pick up a simulation based on it.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by severius
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    Originally posted by Elikal

    I mean in games. Yes in RL also, but that's not the issue in this forum.

    Because humans are the only species that kills for pleasure and not just for food...

    This has been proven 100% untrue.  All higher order primates, several species of dolphin (including the bottle nosed dolphin) and the orca kill for reasons other than food or territorial defense.  They kill for the same reasons people do.

    Yeah, except those other animals dont stuff, mount or make their "sport kills" into rugs and coats

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • TribeofOneTribeofOne Wellford, SCPosts: 1,006Member Uncommon

    1,2,3,4, i declare a thumb war!

     

  • SuperDonkSuperDonk Vancouver, WAPosts: 781Member Common
    Originally posted by Distopia
    Why not go play the SIm's or something like that? There are plenty of non-combat oriented games out there, hell wanna be a farmer? Pick up a simulation based on it.

    I think people are missing the point, we do play Sims, and we also play MMOs, and even PVP in those MMO's sometimes.

     

    What I miss is the kind of system SWG had, where there was a real place for both within the game together.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,622Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torik
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by SuperDonk
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Yeah...hairdressing and interior decorating in a virtual fantasy world is not my idea of fun either.

    I read threads like this as" Why can't MMOs be more like those other games we hate and ignore?" image

    Why does it have to be one way or the other? Black or white?

     

    Even within the Military there are barbers.

    You can be all you can be. I was expressing a personal preference that seems to be more in tune with what gets developed.

    Personally, I have never understood why people want to do mundane, every day things in MMORPGs. I thought the whole point of playing fantasy games was to pretend to do interesting and exciting things that can't be done in RL, or if they can be done, are not accessible to most of us.

    There aren't very many fantasy and scifi books or movies about barbers doing nothing other than barbering are there? Why not? Because they would be very boring.

    Being a barber is a bit too 'mundane' for me in a MMORPG but I definetly understand why people would want to do the less exciting tasks.  When I was part of a big casual guild I got a lot of enjoyment out of being a guild officer in charge of acquiring and distributing ore on behalf of guild members.  I made no profit from it but it helped build a community. 

    For more solo oriented play, I was always fascinated by the Uncle Owen concept from SWG.  While most players saw Uncle Owen as a boring character who did nothing exciting, I recognized that on a frontier world, he was actually a pioneer and entrepreneur.  He was conquering a harsh environment and had to be extremely careful and resourceful.  To me that kind of setup has more appeal than raiding a dragon for loot.

     

    Of course. People enjoy many ancillary activities. Some more than others (on a scale of 1-10, I would be a 1.) Still doesn't change what the typical MMORPG's core game play is. The fact that you can enjoy meta gaming, as with guild organizational activities, or you spend most of your time gathering or growing resources, crafting and selling what you crafted,  doesn't elevate those activities to core status...unless it's in one of those niche MMOs where the ancillary activities are the whole point. What you're actually doing is providing support for the core strife that most are there to participate in.

     

    Not everyone gets to ride in the corporate jet. But if you're fantasizing about a corporation why would you fantasize about working in the mail room? I guess I just don't get it.

  • raistlinmraistlinm new orleans, LAPosts: 673Member

    I don't take this issue to seriously myself but still find it to be an interesting article in my experience I'm fairly certain there are some games out there that are non combat in nature unfortunately these games are more often catered to younger folk than us and let's be honest how many of us really want to play dance dance revolution online?

    What I do wish for though is that mmorpg's go back to experimenting with alternative activities in game such as compelling housing again and the like.

    I remember back during the days of playing COH thinking up some ultra cool ideas for features based on being able to create an alter ego for your hero.

    Honestly though after watching so many devs create cookie cutter game sonly to fail and this still not spurring devs to expand I'm not hopeful.

  • RaphRaph MMO Designer San Diego, CAPosts: 139Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Elikal

     

    Bending it back to MMOs, it is the same. Once in Ultima Online, a MMO was about a world. In Star Wars Galaxies I knew people who spent 50% of their time or more as DANCERS. Or musicians. Or Doctors. Or Hairdressers. And I don't have to tell you the many fantastic stories of the UO days.

    Well, it kind of sounds to me like you miss games made by me. :)

  • NaughtyPNaughtyP Edmonton, ABPosts: 793Member
    Agreed... I have no problems with seeing combat in games. I expect to see it actually. But it should be one square on a quilt and that's it. The options (choices) in MMOs in general have shrunk. I don't like that at all. Variety keeps people coming back to your game. Why do away with variety? Makes no sense.

    Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Elikal
    I mean in games. Yes in RL also, but that's not the issue in this forum.

    No, I mean... when I saw an article on a gaming website "the cool upcoming games in 2013", it was like 90% of them were about war and killing, mostly as dark and gloomy as it gets.

    I mean WHAT THE FRACK IS WRONG WITH HUMANITY?

    No seriously, I really am not overly moralistic or whimsical. I play games for 25 years or so, and per se, I don't mind that games to a degree are combat centered. Really not. I mean, I collect swords, I am pro-NRA... but still: why have our games become so damn war & killing focused? I am really TIRED of it.

     

    War against terrorist, war in Arabia, World War III, World War II, war in other worlds, war WITH other worlds... it never ends! And more often isn't even the funny kind of combat, as in, say Dynasty Warriors where it is so hyperbole absurd that you really don't take it serious. No, the war in games today is VERY serious. And all is grey, brown and dark, visually speaking.

    Bending it back to MMOs, it is the same. Once in Ultima Online, a MMO was about a world. In Star Wars Galaxies I knew people who spent 50% of their time or more as DANCERS. Or musicians. Or Doctors. Or Hairdressers. And I don't have to tell you the many fantastic stories of the UO days.

    And today?

    Go there kill this. Even if it is wrapped in some fishy story appearing not to contain "kill this", it does involve killing. Always. Everywhere.

    Sorry, maybe I am getting old (42 here) or what, but I am certainly not a pacifist or overly sensible, but I am just tired and worn out of KILL KILL KILL. What about finding other solutions? Talking to the robbers in the forest? Outsmarting them? Finding alternative solutions? Sure, I mean in single player games there are Sims or Civ or whatever. But by and large the games are so focused and dominated by war and killing, it starts to sorta unsettle me. Not that I think it causes violence, that is BS. But why people so much want to experience war and gloom and despair nowadays? Ultima the RPGs had combat too, but it didn't revolve around combat. Or there were games like Kings Quest or whatever and war was just one part.

    Especially in MMOs I feel like Online Games have so gone in the wrong direction with their focus on combat as THE sole focus. Sure they add some figleaf crafting and a bit discovery, but by and large 95% of the MMos today revolve around war and killing. And sorry, but I just think that is sick. And as gamer it really starts to bore me, same as someone who eats cake every day, you reach a point where you simply can't see another cake anymore!

    Rant over...


    Had to quote the whole of your post, Elikal, it mimics my feelings accurately.

    My last serious foray (GW2) ended in a zone where players had to fight every 6 feet or so whichever way they turned. It was too much for me, and I never got to the place to beat the big bad dragon at the end. Yes, the zone fit in well with the lore of the game (it was the dragon's home field), but it was just too much for me.

    Skyrim (not an MMO, I know) was very similar. There is ONE way to advance or complete most quests: Kill. I tried playing a Paladin-like character in that game and could not. When the bandits cowered and "surrendered", I backed off (giving mercy), only to have them come at me again once recovered. Why? Because the only way past them was: Kill.

    I, like you, have fun with combat. But there is so much more to games than kill, kill, kill, and kill some more.

    Mass PvP has absolutely no draw for me. It is mass chaos (don't tell me that 100s of players are coordinating EVERYTHING they do with others). There is no real consequences taking place. A player dies and "Bang!" "Zing!", they are back in the fight as if nothing happened. What is the point? Objectives are fabricated. Does one tower help in the attack on another nearby tower? Does it interrupt supply lines? Oh, wait... there are NO supply lines. Can one force send a smaller unit to infiltrate and take out one of the opposing leaders? No. It is just a big, huge, whack-a-mole with 100s of players. Very reminiscent of FPS games, don't you think?

    TES:O is the latest offender. They took a game about exploration and character development and made it into a War Game. WTF? Arena? No war. Daggerfall? No War. Morrowind? No War. Oblivion? No war. Skyrim? A Civil War that mattered not if one partook or not. Yet their idea is to take this ISP and make it ALL about war. Why? (I don't want to derail the thread, just making an example.)

    I really wonder if a game released that was about character development and the world they live in, instead of yet another "Fight! Fight! Fight!" game, how well it would do. We may never know. I have a feeling many would play it. Even some "Fight! Fight! Fight!" gamers enjoy character development and world exploration, sometimes. Or did they just play Skyrim for the combat?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Iselin
    Personally, I have never understood why people want to do mundane, every day things in MMORPGs. I thought the whole point of playing fantasy games was to pretend to do interesting and exciting things that can't be done in RL, or if they can be done, are not accessible to most of us.There aren't very many fantasy and scifi books or movies about barbers doing nothing other than barbering are there? Why not? Because they would be very boring.
    My experience says that some players play games to relax. Maybe they don't have a garden, so they play at farming. Maybe they don't have enough money to play the commodities market, or they simply enjoy the aspect of making money, so they play in the Auction Houses. Maybe they don't have the real life skills or place to make things, so they get into crafting. Sure, you and I may not see ourselves playing this way ALL the time, but does that mean it should be excluded? It is about relaxation for some players. Combat, for me, is far from relaxing.

    On the flip-side, I don't get into "farming-like" aspects because if you do not log in every day, you lose what you tried to accomplish. Sometimes, I don't feel like logging in.

    While the book thing is true, look at it from a different point of view. Are there many fantasy/sic-fi books about JUST fighting? Or do most of them delve into the character's psyches? How long would you read a book just about fighting? There is a massive war going on in A Sword of Ice and Fire (I really do like your avatar, btw) but there is so much more going on besides fighting. Matter of fact, the battles are pretty much skipped over, for the most part. Who has Cerce Lannister stabbed? Combat is ONE form of conflict. There are so many other forms.

    It is the exclusion of aspects/features that fighting only games present today. And truth be told, combat in MMOs is not all that great. Would you enjoy an MMO that had multiple ways to handle quests or obstacles placed in your way? I sure would :)

    Again, combat only MMOs have their place and many players enjoy them, but does almost EVERY MMO have to be the same?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member

    I'm not going to say I don't want to "kill" things, but I'm into combat, and that's what I expect out of a game. I agree though that there should be varied, interesting objectives, character progression should not revolve around killing things, I wish it involved more quests, exercise mini games, sparring and "training", and maybe one third of the progression of power be done in live combat. It's not so much that I don't like to kill foes.... but that is pretty boring by itself, and in an MMO, deep character progression comes right behind gameplay in significance. Deep character progression doesn't however mean simply giving players 20 variations on each class, having skill points to put into assets when you slay foes, and so on, it means the actual actions taken to progress your character are interesting and inviting, Character diversity and uniqueness is a nice and interesting, but that isn't supplying deep character PROGRESSION.

    GW2 did a good thing with the fight to survive feature, it adds an extra layer to death so you can be taken out but not be dead forthright. Many variations of this could be considered, while they don't have to be directly linear, certain kinds of defeat can be added so you can defeat your foes without killing them. You can become injured, knocked out, bound, and more. In such a way certain fights may expect you to do certain things to your foe, killing may not be acceptable, like capturing a common thief may not intend for them to be killed, but captured, you may defeat your foes by injuring them or knocking them out and not take the time to execute them because your steeped in combat, you ally may be knocked out and reviving him isn't immediately available to your class so you have to drag him to away from the battle field and resuscitate them.

    More involved defeat and death mechanics work toward other issues too, for instance, most games don't institute a serious death penalty because players don't want to stop playing... yet a death penalty is relevant to many balance and functionality issues, having a point before death where your impaired but may be recovered... without the cheap and simple magic resurrection, allows for players to be defeated without dying, and allows for actually killed players to suffer a meaningful death penalty. Slaying foes in certain places may be frowned upon and cause strife between you and authorities, slaying foes in a battle may give your opponents vengeance bonuses which make them even harder. These don't have to apply to every situation, but they could add some depth to certain parts of the game.

    I can't say that coming up with alternatives for killing foes is a priority in my book, it could be better, but MMOs have failed to deliver the basics I expect so this is kind of a mute point, I can hardly bring myself to play anything these days... But here's hoping games get better :-/

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • sexypanda198sexypanda198 Rockford, ILPosts: 151Member
    Originally posted by Elikal

    I mean in games. Yes in RL also, but that's not the issue in this forum.

    No, I mean... when I saw an article on a gaming website "the cool upcoming games in 2013", it was like 90% of them were about war and killing, mostly as dark and gloomy as it gets.

    I mean WHAT THE FRACK IS WRONG WITH HUMANITY?

    No seriously, I really am not overly moralistic or whimsical. I play games for 25 years or so, and per se, I don't mind that games to a degree are combat centered. Really not. I mean, I collect swords, I am pro-NRA... but still: why have our games become so damn war & killing focused? I am really TIRED of it.

     

    War against terrorist, war in Arabia, World War III, World War II, war in other worlds, war WITH other worlds... it never ends! And more often isn't even the funny kind of combat, as in, say Dynasty Warriors where it is so hyperbole absurd that you really don't take it serious. No, the war in games today is VERY serious. And all is grey, brown and dark, visually speaking.

    Bending it back to MMOs, it is the same. Once in Ultima Online, a MMO was about a world. In Star Wars Galaxies I knew people who spent 50% of their time or more as DANCERS. Or musicians. Or Doctors. Or Hairdressers. And I don't have to tell you the many fantastic stories of the UO days.

    And today?

    Go there kill this. Even if it is wrapped in some fishy story appearing not to contain "kill this", it does involve killing. Always. Everywhere.

     

    Sorry, maybe I am getting old (42 here) or what, but I am certainly not a pacifist or overly sensible, but I am just tired and worn out of KILL KILL KILL. What about finding other solutions? Talking to the robbers in the forest? Outsmarting them? Finding alternative solutions? Sure, I mean in single player games there are Sims or Civ or whatever. But by and large the games are so focused and dominated by war and killing, it starts to sorta unsettle me. Not that I think it causes violence, that is BS. But why people so much want to experience war and gloom and despair nowadays? Ultima the RPGs had combat too, but it didn't revolve around combat. Or there were games like Kings Quest or whatever and war was just one part.

    Especially in MMOs I feel like Online Games have so gone in the wrong direction with their focus on combat as THE sole focus. Sure they add some figleaf crafting and a bit discovery, but by and large 95% of the MMos today revolve around war and killing. And sorry, but I just think that is sick. And as gamer it really starts to bore me, same as someone who eats cake every day, you reach a point where you simply can't see another cake anymore!

     

    Rant over...


    ??? then go play sims 3 or sports game. for online games not gonna call them mmo's but second life or IMVU name few. Not to mention some of the sports mmo's out there. There are many choices. People have different tastes you dont always have to agree on it but it's not like there is now options for the non-violent gaming type just like there are options for vegans who dont want meat.

    image

  • AdamantineAdamantine NowherePosts: 3,514Member Common

    If you play a game, you usually want some sort of challenge.

    Having a challenge requires some sort of conflict, with the option to lose.

    Thus all games are some sort of "war".

    Thats just what life in itself is, lots of conflicts.

     

  • faxnadufaxnadu HelsinkiPosts: 940Member Uncommon
    sounds like you need farmville.
  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,296Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Raph
    Originally posted by Elikal

     

    Bending it back to MMOs, it is the same. Once in Ultima Online, a MMO was about a world. In Star Wars Galaxies I knew people who spent 50% of their time or more as DANCERS. Or musicians. Or Doctors. Or Hairdressers. And I don't have to tell you the many fantastic stories of the UO days.

    Well, it kind of sounds to me like you miss games made by me. :)

    Definitely image

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by free2play
    It is curious how no game was ever built where you defeated a player by bankrupting them.

    Monopoly would like a word with you...

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • morbuskabismorbuskabis RodonPosts: 290Member

    I played THIEF, Deus EX and Morrowind like a Shooter. I killed every one I could. Even quest givers. I loved, that the Dev gave me the freedom to do so. After my killing spree, and figure out how far I could go, I restarted the game and played it as a pacifist.

    What I try to say here is, the games gave me options. Radical options, so radical that you could not finish the game. But I could find out how far I could go and that is what I liked. In games like COD and GOW the options are missing and because of that the game gets boring real quick. You get forced to play a certain way, sometimes even the path is allready predetermined. No choice at all....

    image -Massive-Industries- Heavy Duty

  • BiskopBiskop AvalonPosts: 709Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Iselin
    Personally, I have never understood why people want to do mundane, every day things in MMORPGs. I thought the whole point of playing fantasy games was to pretend to do interesting and exciting things that can't be done in RL, or if they can be done, are not accessible to most of us.

     

    There aren't very many fantasy and scifi books or movies about barbers doing nothing other than barbering are there? Why not? Because they would be very boring.


    My experience says that some players play games to relax. Maybe they don't have a garden, so they play at farming. Maybe they don't have enough money to play the commodities market, or they simply enjoy the aspect of making money, so they play in the Auction Houses. Maybe they don't have the real life skills or place to make things, so they get into crafting. Sure, you and I may not see ourselves playing this way ALL the time, but does that mean it should be excluded? It is about relaxation for some players. Combat, for me, is far from relaxing.

     

    On the flip-side, I don't get into "farming-like" aspects because if you do not log in every day, you lose what you tried to accomplish. Sometimes, I don't feel like logging in.

    While the book thing is true, look at it from a different point of view. Are there many fantasy/sic-fi books about JUST fighting? Or do most of them delve into the character's psyches? How long would you read a book just about fighting? There is a massive war going on in A Sword of Ice and Fire (I really do like your avatar, btw) but there is so much more going on besides fighting. Matter of fact, the battles are pretty much skipped over, for the most part. Who has Cerce Lannister stabbed? Combat is ONE form of conflict. There are so many other forms.

    It is the exclusion of aspects/features that fighting only games present today. And truth be told, combat in MMOs is not all that great. Would you enjoy an MMO that had multiple ways to handle quests or obstacles placed in your way? I sure would :)

    Again, combat only MMOs have their place and many players enjoy them, but does almost EVERY MMO have to be the same?

    A very good post and I agree 100%. It's like some people here fail to realize that the OP is not saying combat should be removed and everybody be forced to do "mundane tasks" instead. All he's saying is that today's games focus too much on combat and exclude all other options because there's this widespread notion that anything but non stop slaughter is dull and boring.

    I love combat in games and will not often play games that do not give me the option to kill things once in a while (horror games like Amnesia being the exception). But I also like freedom and choice; I like to try different approaches to a challenge, instead of being constantly forced to kill stuff in order to progress. Having to use violence all the time is just as boring to me as having to craft all the time, because after a while (and especially in MMOs), combat gets very repetitive and dull and there's no sense of actually achieving anything.

    RPGs used to be about those options, about choices and consequences. When me and my mates played PnP RPGs in the 80s and 90s we did not just go on killing sprees and wage endless wars all the time. Sure, the violence was there but there were always multiple ways of solving most challenges (and all challenges were not about conflict). Early computer RPGs were often the same, but since then the genre has changed and "RPG" nowadays just means "action game with some char customization". I'm really hoping to see some more variety and complexity coming back to the genre with the next generation of games in the coming years. 

     

  • faxnadufaxnadu HelsinkiPosts: 940Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Biskop
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by Iselin
    Personally, I have never understood why people want to do mundane, every day things in MMORPGs. I thought the whole point of playing fantasy games was to pretend to do interesting and exciting things that can't be done in RL, or if they can be done, are not accessible to most of us.

     

    There aren't very many fantasy and scifi books or movies about barbers doing nothing other than barbering are there? Why not? Because they would be very boring.


    My experience says that some players play games to relax. Maybe they don't have a garden, so they play at farming. Maybe they don't have enough money to play the commodities market, or they simply enjoy the aspect of making money, so they play in the Auction Houses. Maybe they don't have the real life skills or place to make things, so they get into crafting. Sure, you and I may not see ourselves playing this way ALL the time, but does that mean it should be excluded? It is about relaxation for some players. Combat, for me, is far from relaxing.

     

    On the flip-side, I don't get into "farming-like" aspects because if you do not log in every day, you lose what you tried to accomplish. Sometimes, I don't feel like logging in.

    While the book thing is true, look at it from a different point of view. Are there many fantasy/sic-fi books about JUST fighting? Or do most of them delve into the character's psyches? How long would you read a book just about fighting? There is a massive war going on in A Sword of Ice and Fire (I really do like your avatar, btw) but there is so much more going on besides fighting. Matter of fact, the battles are pretty much skipped over, for the most part. Who has Cerce Lannister stabbed? Combat is ONE form of conflict. There are so many other forms.

    It is the exclusion of aspects/features that fighting only games present today. And truth be told, combat in MMOs is not all that great. Would you enjoy an MMO that had multiple ways to handle quests or obstacles placed in your way? I sure would :)

    Again, combat only MMOs have their place and many players enjoy them, but does almost EVERY MMO have to be the same?

    A very good post and I agree 100%. It's like some people here fail to realize that the OP is not saying combat should be removed and everybody be forced to do "mundane tasks" instead. All he's saying is that today's games focus too much on combat and exclude all other options because there's this widespread notion that anything but non stop slaughter is dull and boring.

    I love combat in games and will not often play games that do not give me the option to kill things once in a while (horror games like Amnesia being the exception). But I also like freedom and choice; I like to try different approaches to a challenge, instead of being constantly forced to kill stuff in order to progress. Having to use violence all the time is just as boring to me as having to craft all the time, because after a while (and especially in MMOs), combat gets very repetitive and dull and there's no sense of actually achieving anything.

    RPGs used to be about those options, about choices and consequences. When me and my mates played PnP RPGs in the 80s and 90s we did not just go on killing sprees and wage endless wars all the time. Sure, the violence was there but there were always multiple ways of solving most challenges (and all challenges were not about conflict). Early computer RPGs were often the same, but since then the genre has changed and "RPG" nowadays just means "action game with some char customization". I'm really hoping to see some more variety and complexity coming back to the genre with the next generation of games in the coming years. 

     

    yea yea and saying that today games focus too much on combat and need to offer more choises instead can be said quite shortly if thats the meaning behind it truly.

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Elikal

     Ultima the RPGs had combat too, but it didn't revolve around combat. Or there were games like Kings Quest or whatever and war was just one part.

    Especially in MMOs I feel like Online Games have so gone in the wrong direction with their focus on combat as THE sole focus. Sure they add some figleaf crafting and a bit discovery, but by and large 95% of the MMos today revolve around war and killing.

    bringing it back to pen and paper RPGs

     

    what was the most common  adventure module setting in the 1970s and 1980s? 

    the dungeon crawl

    slay foes - plunder their treasure

     

    TSR modules like Ravenloft, Tomb of Horrors, The Vault of the Drow, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, many others

  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by morbuskabis

    I played THIEF, Deus EX and Morrowind like a Shooter. I killed every one I could. Even quest givers. I loved, that the Dev gave me the freedom to do so. After my killing spree, and figure out how far I could go, I restarted the game and played it as a pacifist.

    What I try to say here is, the games gave me options. Radical options, so radical that you could not finish the game. But I could find out how far I could go and that is what I liked.

    In games like COD and GOW the options are missing and because of that the game gets boring real quick. You get forced to play a certain way, sometimes even the path is already predetermined. No choice at all....

    i agree - good post

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,467Member Uncommon

    I do care about morals in every aspect but i don't think morals are crossed too often in games.

    I don't play those games that center around my country versus your country or like Eve has it's large nationality based guilds stuff like that turns me off.

    I think you need to remember what this genre is,it is Role play gaming.I would find it tough to think of someone i would like to role play that does not revolve around some form of combat.

    people want to role play super heroes and that thought process starts from when you are just s a little kid in real life.Yes some kids want to be a fireman or policeman ,not sure how you could possibly make a rpg based on being a fireman.A policeman that could work but then WHY does the kid want to be a cop,to fire a gun?

    What other types of RP'ing have crossed people's  minds?Famous athlete of course,tons would love to be Gretzky or Crosby or a famous home run hitter or a star quarterback,but then that sort of takes you out of the RPG genre and into sport sims.You definitely couldn't make a rpg based on role playing Galilleo or Einstein but Christopher Columbus or some famous navigator works.There has been games like that example the ship sailing games.I forget the one that is a spin off of an old console game,i really liked the console version but the pc version was just too cheaply done.

    So you see it ends up centered around fighting.I just prefer my combat to be focused on fighting npc's and not other players,at least not in my rpg's.


    Samoan Diamond

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by Nadia
    bringing it back to pen and paper RPGswhat was the most common  adventure module setting in the 1970s and 1980s? the dungeon crawlslay foes - plunder their treasureTSR modules like Ravenloft, Tomb of Horrors, The Vault of the Drow, Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, many others
    This is true for me because combat literally took a long time for each individual fight. I'd say out of a 3 hour session, 2-2.5 hours were spent on combat, simply because it was so slow (and many, many misses were had).

    In my group of tabletop RPG players, the character interactions were the focus. We spent a lot of time talking with NPCs and each other. I realize other players had vastly different experiences. We spent time mapping the dungeon, looking for traps and secret doors, getting great descriptions of the rooms and settings we encountered, and generally using our imaginations to picture what the gameworld was like. A lot of this is now done differently (more efficiently and visually) in computer RPGs.

    All of those modules you listed had a reason for going into their depths besides monsters and treasures. They were not (usually) just plopped into a DM's world and the players "had at" them. For me, I find I need a reason to slaughter and kill besides just slaughtering and killing :)

    That was a failing of EverQuest for me. Mob camping was not a fun activity in and of itself. The only goal of "Let's get XP and level up!" just does not do it for me. The group I was in could make all the difference for me between a fun camp and a boring camp experience. I know many players can do this, endlessly. I just am not one of them :)

    Much of this is lost in the translation to computer games, but the spirit does not need to be sacrificed, in my opinion :)

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

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