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Still, no MMORPG surpasses WoW in fluid combat (in my opinion): Why not?

PiechunksPiechunks ProvincePosts: 136Member

What do I mean specifically by fluid? The sum of: the games response to your input, the successive execution of skills and skill macro responsiveness.

 

No, I won't go back to WoW. I'm finished with that game and practically this entire genre. WoW has a lot of problems.. and frankly, even without them I couldn't bring myself to play it, because my marginal utility from doing anything for a ridiculous amount of time is negative to 0.

Some games have tried making babysteps, like Tera, Raiderz, AoC etc., but nothing so far has been executed at the same caliber.

It has been over a decade now for MMORPGers and we're still stuck with tab targeting for the most part; you'll have some games like GW2 boasting a pseudo targeting, i.e. aoe system with a dodge in place mimicking a cooldown in WoW, but it's really just the same beast with a different flavor (and still, not quite as fluid in my worthless opinion).

 

Has anybody found anything with combat comparably "fluid" to WoWs? I am really hankering for something new and nothing recently has really captured my fancy in the combat department.

 

 

 

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Comments

  • SwaneaSwanea Vegas, NVPosts: 2,368Member Uncommon

    Outside of MOBAs or FPS, it seems MMOs aren't worried as much about fluid combat.  Games like War, rift, TOR (Although tor has gotten better) all were pretty bad with fluid combat.  Plenty of my friends ask how fluid the combat is FIRST when they find out I'm in some closed beta.

     

    And honestly, the fluid combat is EASILY one of the biggest strengths of WoW.  For PvP, it's pretty much unbeatable in that aspect.

  • PieRadPieRad Odense MPosts: 1,108Member

    I agree, no game really has the same responsive combat.

     

    Not that I know of, at least.

    image

  • CoNk3rCoNk3r GossauPosts: 66Member Common
    deleted
  • romerokromerok ZwoPosts: 104Member

    I also agree that many games fail to cope at that aspect of wow.

    And warcrafts big universe with a load of books and games to support it is also a factor to me to keep coming back to wow.

     

    Age of Conan had a real gem in their hands at beta considering the combat and what it could have become once fully tweaked. still they didn't manage to parallel imo.

     

    You brought up and excelent question in my opinion cause this Combat fluidness is something I also run into, especially with mmos.  

    "You resist. You cling to your life as if it actually matters. You will learn."

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,423Member Uncommon

    Well FFXi uses a different macro system than any other game but does take a second to call up the actual macro.The reason is simple and i like it.It is not a hotbar,that allows your screen to remain clear of clutter,you ONLY call up the macro when you need it.Need to look at something very important as well,the servers are foreign and pings can sometimes be VERY high like more than 1000 ping,yet guess what,it remains as fluid as when it has 120 ping.

    There is actually a fix to lose the delay from calling up that macro system,however you have to use Windower add on to utilize it.

    I will add a very valid point when comes to WOW.If the UI is so fluid,WHY the need for so many add ons?When you NEED add ons that says it is not up to par,not good enough,does it not?So you know i don't use Windower or any add on in FFXI and it plays fluid and perfectly to my liking.

    So there you have it,we both have our favorite games but i don't need any add-ons,does the OP need add-ons in WOW?If not ,than that only makes the game on par with FFXI not better as i am perfectly happy with the UI and how it performs under bad latency conditions.

    I wonder how fluid Wow would run if you had 1000 or even 300-500 ping?


    Samoan Diamond

  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common

    Tera, Rift, DDO, SWTOR, Eden Eternal, Shaiya, Grand Fantasia, Age of Wushu, Gates of Andaron, DCUO,  Aion, ect ect ect .....

     

     

    These all have fluid combat like you are describing.

     

    And yes there are also a bunch of games that do not have fluid combat.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by filmoret

    Tera, Rift, DDO, SWTOR, Eden Eternal, Shaiya, Grand Fantasia, Age of Wushu, Gates of Andaron, DCUO,  Aion, ect ect ect .....

     

     

    These all have fluid combat like you are describing.

     

    And yes there are also a bunch of games that do not have fluid combat.

    Tera DDO SWTOR DCUO are games I've played and liked very much but they do not have fluid combat at all. One of the biggest complaints on the TERA forums is when will the UI lag get fixed.

    Fluid isn't just hitting one button after another, or the ability to. MMOs are notorius for UI lag but people just become accustom to it or attribute it to connection lag. I'm also done with wow but you really do notice it when you switch from wow to other mmos.

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Sorry but planetside 1 beat wow for fluid combat

    A year earlier.
  • StuddleyStuddley Scottville, MIPosts: 37Member
    Widlstar might end up with a fluid combat system. I'm not in beta, but just going from their combat video, it looks interesting. It has the just about mandatory dodge/roll thingie, and a telegraph AOE system. The only thing that worries me is that it also has a double-jump. I just hope PVP doesn't turn into everyone bunny hopping like idiots (yes I'm looking at you Defiance).
  • PiechunksPiechunks ProvincePosts: 136Member
    Originally posted by filmoret

    Tera, Rift, DDO, SWTOR, Eden Eternal, Shaiya, Grand Fantasia, Age of Wushu, Gates of Andaron, DCUO,  Aion, ect ect ect .....

     

     

    These all have fluid combat like you are describing.

     

    And yes there are also a bunch of games that do not have fluid combat.

     

    Actually, I've played all of the above and none of them do.

    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Sorry but planetside 1 beat wow for fluid combat

    A year earlier.

     

    Modified the title. Now you're all out of ammunition.

     

  • Eir_SEir_S Argyle, NYPosts: 4,623Member

    Yeah, obviously I liked GW2, but WoW does do combat very well for its style.  It's the big #1 reason I'd always end up back in WoW for all those years when sluggish games like Rift were being released.  DCUO was ok.

    Aion and TERA?  TSW?  I wasn't really impressed.

    It all makes me wonder what "Titan" will control like.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,690Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    I will add a very valid point when comes to WOW.If the UI is so fluid,WHY the need for so many add ons?When you NEED add ons that says it is not up to par,not good enough,does it not?So you know i don't use Windower or any add on in FFXI and it plays fluid and perfectly to my liking.

    So there you have it,we both have our favorite games but i don't need any add-ons,does the OP need add-ons in WOW?If not ,than that only makes the game on par with FFXI not better as i am perfectly happy with the UI and how it performs under bad latency conditions.

    I wonder how fluid Wow would run if you had 1000 or even 300-500 ping?

    The need for addons is completely separate from whether combat is fluid.

    WOW handles high ping situations better than most games (on the few historic occasions where high ping actually happened; I haven't seen high ping in WOW in years.)  However it's a much more action- and decision-intensive game than FFXI (from what I recall), so obviously you're going to notice in an action-packed game when your decisions take longer to execute than you would in a game which has much slower paced combat.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Boca Raton, FLPosts: 867Member Uncommon

    Let me tell you about the most recent PvP fight I had in Vendetta Online; I will attempt to do this using as few words as possible, while illustrating different points of strategy. I will also assume the reader has little or no knowledge about this game.

     

    I was leaving a sector belonging to a lawless faction in “Greyspace”, on an errand, when I was hailed by a pilot who wanted to practice. We both cleared a safe distance outside the “No Fire Zone”, and then I turned to face him. He was in a Marauder: a trade ship with low mass that had decent firepower and was also capable of dogfighting. I was in a Corvus Vulturius: a dedicated fighter with slightly less firepower and an extremely thin frontal profile.

     

    In the beginning of the fight I did not know what weapons my opponent would be using. The first person to fire gives away a certain advantage: the advantage of surprise. I fired first, a little too early, perhaps. I was using all-energy weapons: these have the benefit of not consuming ammo. One strategy is to save a weapon until partway through the fight, hiding it from one's opponent. By firing both weapons I had tipped my hand.

     

    We closed the distance and began the process of feeling each other out; reaction versus reaction. No strong commitments, just looking for any possible openings. He launched flares.  Flares have proximity fuses: the closer you are to one, the more in danger you are. Worse, flares have a concussive stun to their explosion which can cause one's ship to spin, forcing one to recover.

     

    I dodged away from the flare, and switched my strafing pattern to a lateral movement; this increased the lateral angle at which my opponent would have to aim in order to hit with his slower flares. Slowly, I began working him down with my blasters, scoring one hit at a time. Another flare launch, I counted them: three. He was using an all-flare loadout. This meant that I had only to dodge 10 more shots before he would be out of ammo and forced to run or stand and die honorably. This volley came a little too close; in one flash my health had dropped from 100% to 49%. I couldn't take another hit like that.

     

    Recovering, I saw that my opponent was behaving a little too eagerly; smelling blood, he was moving in to close range for the kill. Many inexperienced pilots will backroll in the face of an aggressive adversary: this can mean certain doom for someone facing flares. However, flares have a subtle weakness, an Achilles-heel: I could tell by the sound of the flares and the color of the explosions that I was facing Sunflares, the most powerful kind, which also have a safety-fuse. If Sunflares are inside the range at which they will damage the pilot who launched them by detonating, they will not explode. By advancing aggressively, my opponent has given me an opportunity to get inside this safety-fuse radius and nullify the usefulness of his flares. In my lighter, faster Vulturius I am in a great setup to take advantage of this.

     

    Switching to Flight-Assist mode, I throw the throttle forward and begin advancing head-on toward my opponent. Surprised, he launches another flare volley that roars harmlessly past. Realizing what has happened, my opponent begins back-pedaling, but it's no use; my Vulturius with it's higher maneuvering speed can easily stay inside his safety-fuse radius so long as I do not strafe too heavily to either side. For a few seconds I hover menacingly in front of him, scoring hit after hit with both blasters, then he explodes. I leave the scene with 49% health remaining.

     

    This is an example of the strategy and execution one must use while in combat in Vendetta Online. Books that might aid in strategy in Vendetta include Sun Tzu's The Art of War or Miyamoto Musashi's The Book of Five Rings.  All in all, the combat is fluid, fast, depending on player skill as well as strategy.  The combat in WoW does not compare.

    "To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
    Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
    Check it out on Steam

  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by filmoret

    Tera, Rift, DDO, SWTOR, Eden Eternal, Shaiya, Grand Fantasia, Age of Wushu, Gates of Andaron, DCUO,  Aion, ect ect ect .....

     

     

    These all have fluid combat like you are describing.

     

    And yes there are also a bunch of games that do not have fluid combat.

    Tera DDO SWTOR DCUO are games I've played and liked very much but they do not have fluid combat at all. One of the biggest complaints on the TERA forums is when will the UI lag get fixed.

    Fluid isn't just hitting one button after another, or the ability to. MMOs are notorius for UI lag but people just become accustom to it or attribute it to connection lag. I'm also done with wow but you really do notice it when you switch from wow to other mmos.

    So what you really meant to say is about lag free servers, not fluid ui controls.  All the games I mentioned are fluid ui controls when they are lag free.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,774Member Uncommon

    Could be the graphics. /shrug. 

    I do agree though, WoW has had some of the best movement of any game so far. 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,774Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Sorry but planetside 1 beat wow for fluid combat

    A year earlier.

    Not the same genre. 

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • EverketEverket MiddenheimPosts: 240Member Uncommon

    I played wow for many years, and when I first played it, the combat was probably the thing that surprised me the most. It was just great and responsive, having only earlier played daoc and eq2. While the combat is still good in those games, wow was just a little bit, different.

     

    I recent years I've played most mmorpgs, some just for a day, others for a few months. I do not understand what you mean by fluid combat though, as game as rift and aion definitely is fluid too, I find them pretty much the same. And that goes for a big percentage of the mmorpgs I've played the last years.

     

    Last week I started playing wow on a private server, tbc. And I am really annoyed over the combat with my hunter, something just feels off. Its not smooth at all, its been quite a few years since I played wow so maybe by playing newer mmorpgs wow combat is just not that great anymore. OR what I do believe is the private server might just not be that great. Its one of the biggest and most known though, feenix.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by filmoret
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by filmoret

    Tera, Rift, DDO, SWTOR, Eden Eternal, Shaiya, Grand Fantasia, Age of Wushu, Gates of Andaron, DCUO,  Aion, ect ect ect .....

     

     

    These all have fluid combat like you are describing.

     

    And yes there are also a bunch of games that do not have fluid combat.

    Tera DDO SWTOR DCUO are games I've played and liked very much but they do not have fluid combat at all. One of the biggest complaints on the TERA forums is when will the UI lag get fixed.

    Fluid isn't just hitting one button after another, or the ability to. MMOs are notorius for UI lag but people just become accustom to it or attribute it to connection lag. I'm also done with wow but you really do notice it when you switch from wow to other mmos.

    So what you really meant to say is about lag free servers, not fluid ui controls.  All the games I mentioned are fluid ui controls when they are lag free.

    Nope not at all, lag shows up in everything. You really notice it when movement is fluid and responsive but UI commands are not. That isn't server lag...that's the game.

    Tera had it really bad. You could move, jump ect but in combat trying to use a skill always had a slight delay.  Lots of people never notice it but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

    DCUO actually seems really good ( I'm messing around in it right now ) so I'll take that part back. It's better than any game I've played ina while when it comes to this. 

  • mmoskimmoski plymouthPosts: 282Member

    AND THE WINNER FOR MOST INNOVATIVE FLUID COMBAT SYSTEM IS....

    Dragons Nest, although many of you wont like the graphics and instancing, the combat is second to none, the combat plays more like a fighting game, fluid combo's, breakers, movement and dodging based on aim targeting. No other game has come close yet.

     

  • SuraknarSuraknar Montreal, QCPosts: 824Member

    Nope nothing even Close after WoW...

    its combat system in PvP is the #1 reason I got hooked to it ... the Lag and unresponsiveness, non fluid combat, of later titles is what got me stop playing, from WAR to GW2...   

     

    - Duke Suraknar -
    Order of the Silver Star, OSS

    image
    ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard

  • DinastyDinasty Posts: 109Member Uncommon

    Tab targeting is not fluid. WoW's combat is awful, plain and simple.

    Tera and Neverwinter are just two that come to mind that have fluid combat that blows WoW's ancient tab targeting mess away..

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,774Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dinasty

    Tab targeting is not fluid. WoW's combat is awful, plain and simple.

    Tera and Neverwinter are just two that come to mind that have fluid combat that blows WoW's ancient tab targeting mess away..

    All matter of opinion I guess. I would put GW2 one step below WoW,  with it being the cadillac of fluid combat. Tera and Neverwinter way down the list due to the fact that they both have the irritating root/lock when casting.

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • filmoretfilmoret Palm Bay, FLPosts: 509Member Common
    I got  no clue what you are trying to say right now.  Since the combat controls on a lot of games are equal and sometimes better then WOW.  Yes there are a lot of games that don't feel right when playing EQ2 for example and yes WOW was a lot better.  But to say that it is still best ui for a mmo is just plain blind.  Don't mistake preference for fluid ui controls.  No I do not particularly like the controls of DK Online or LOL for that matter, but they are fluid and work very well.  What you are describing is lag plain and simple.  Your command packet isn't getting a fast enough response from the game you are playing.  When I log into any EU server that usually happens to me.
  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by Dinasty

    Tab targeting is not fluid. WoW's combat is awful, plain and simple.

    Tera and Neverwinter are just two that come to mind that have fluid combat that blows WoW's ancient tab targeting mess away..

    what dose tab targeting have to do with fluid? nothinig thats what i wish you people who prefer FPS games would stop bashing tab targeting it has served the MMO world great for longer then most of you ahve been alive, and in my opion is still better then these soft targeting games.

     

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • SwaneaSwanea Vegas, NVPosts: 2,368Member Uncommon

    Originally posted by Dinasty

    Tab targeting is not fluid. WoW's combat is awful, plain and simple.

    Tera and Neverwinter are just two that come to mind that have fluid combat that blows WoW's ancient tab targeting mess away..

    Originally posted by Phaserlight

    Let me tell you about the most recent PvP fight I had in Vendetta Online; I will attempt to do this using as few words as possible, while illustrating different points of strategy. I will also assume the reader has little or no knowledge about this game.

     

    I was leaving a sector belonging to a lawless faction in “Greyspace”, on an errand, when I was hailed by a pilot who wanted to practice. We both cleared a safe distance outside the “No Fire Zone”, and then I turned to face him. He was in a Marauder: a trade ship with low mass that had decent firepower and was also capable of dogfighting. I was in a Corvus Vulturius: a dedicated fighter with slightly less firepower and an extremely thin frontal profile.

     

    In the beginning of the fight I did not know what weapons my opponent would be using. The first person to fire gives away a certain advantage: the advantage of surprise. I fired first, a little too early, perhaps. I was using all-energy weapons: these have the benefit of not consuming ammo. One strategy is to save a weapon until partway through the fight, hiding it from one's opponent. By firing both weapons I had tipped my hand.

     

    We closed the distance and began the process of feeling each other out; reaction versus reaction. No strong commitments, just looking for any possible openings. He launched flares.  Flares have proximity fuses: the closer you are to one, the more in danger you are. Worse, flares have a concussive stun to their explosion which can cause one's ship to spin, forcing one to recover.

     

    I dodged away from the flare, and switched my strafing pattern to a lateral movement; this increased the lateral angle at which my opponent would have to aim in order to hit with his slower flares. Slowly, I began working him down with my blasters, scoring one hit at a time. Another flare launch, I counted them: three. He was using an all-flare loadout. This meant that I had only to dodge 10 more shots before he would be out of ammo and forced to run or stand and die honorably. This volley came a little too close; in one flash my health had dropped from 100% to 49%. I couldn't take another hit like that.

     

    Recovering, I saw that my opponent was behaving a little too eagerly; smelling blood, he was moving in to close range for the kill. Many inexperienced pilots will backroll in the face of an aggressive adversary: this can mean certain doom for someone facing flares. However, flares have a subtle weakness, an Achilles-heel: I could tell by the sound of the flares and the color of the explosions that I was facing Sunflares, the most powerful kind, which also have a safety-fuse. If Sunflares are inside the range at which they will damage the pilot who launched them by detonating, they will not explode. By advancing aggressively, my opponent has given me an opportunity to get inside this safety-fuse radius and nullify the usefulness of his flares. In my lighter, faster Vulturius I am in a great setup to take advantage of this.

     

    Switching to Flight-Assist mode, I throw the throttle forward and begin advancing head-on toward my opponent. Surprised, he launches another flare volley that roars harmlessly past. Realizing what has happened, my opponent begins back-pedaling, but it's no use; my Vulturius with it's higher maneuvering speed can easily stay inside his safety-fuse radius so long as I do not strafe too heavily to either side. For a few seconds I hover menacingly in front of him, scoring hit after hit with both blasters, then he explodes. I leave the scene with 49% health remaining.

     

    This is an example of the strategy and execution one must use while in combat in Vendetta Online. Books that might aid in strategy in Vendetta include Sun Tzu's The Art of War or Miyamoto Musashi's The Book of Five Rings.  All in all, the combat is fluid, fast, depending on player skill as well as strategy.  The combat in WoW does not compare.

    For the first post...

    Yes, WoWs combat is as fluid as it gets for an MMORPG.  Your actions/reactions to everything happen as you spot them, as you react to them.  You see them casting a giant attack, you interupt, you use a cooldown to reduce damage, you stun, whatever the situation calls for.  Or you ignore it and wait for a chance to use your ability.

    But that isn't even ALL of it.  It's how things go off WHEN YOU want and need them to.  You don't get that silly delay between firing off casts like you do in most games.  You don't get rooted while doing ANYTHING in a cast like neverwinter.  Which is TERRIBLE for it's "Do anything? Rooted" attacks.  Tera is similar to GW in the sense of movement/dodges affect combat.

    This is not JUST fluid combat animations. This is fluid COMBAT.  The reduction of lag/ui lag/etc.  The game plays off a players skill and reaction time.  I'm not saying gear isn't a factor, this is not what we are speaking of.  We are talking about your ability to react to your enemy in a fluid and timely manner.  Instead of sitting there going. 1................1...............1.................2..................1. And win.

     

    For Point two, I understand where you are going and that seems to make Vendetta a very fun game in that regard.  Having not played, I can't comment on its fluid combat.  What I can comment on is that in almost any PvP scenario, things are different and exciting for MOST games.  I think you are looking at two different types of games.  But most people hardly care for the deeper combat in wow DUE to it's fluidness.

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