Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I want to see another game that takes years to reach level cap but with player progression at timed intervals. My ddream is to play an Asheron's Call type of MMO that takes a minimum of 2-3 years to reach the level cap on a 3-4 hour, 5 day play cycle (this would be gated too, anything more is not carried over to Eff with powerlevelers and non-conformists) The thing with this system is that vertical progression is easily measured. Don't get me wrong I love lengthy leveling times but hate not getting spells, abilities and stat upgrades in a timely fashion. SO my game would have about on average every 2 hours an upgrade to either Stats, Abilities, or passive effects (like a talent tree). This is ontop of gear acquisition, which would further help break up the length in between character progression.
I voted that I agree, they are a mindless time sink. But they don't have to be.
Considering the larger portion of MMO players today want to start at the "end game", we won't see this changing anytime soon. Money talks.
Just imagine an MMO where the leveling was interesting, where players were engaged with what they were doing. Just think if there were multiple ways of dealing with the obstacles thrown in our paths.
Ahh... such a wondrous pipedream...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
I'm currently playing Dragon's Dogma which, whatever complaints I have with the game (which are substantial), the combat is awesome and I actually want to go beat up trash mobs. If mmorpgs could put in a compelling combat system like that as opposed to the usual press1-press-2-press3-hope-1-has-cooled-down-if-so-PRESS-IT, then I would grind all day with a smile on my face.
Slow leveling means you get to spend alot of quality times in zones before moving on. Don't hafta change your gear constantly, makes the game last a lot longer.
Well for me anyways. I tried to play GW2 a month and a half, reached cap, just didn't feel like going on with it. Guss i still prefer vertical proggression. The only mmo that i played alot of time with was ffxi, and i hardly did any end-game.
Wish developers would focas on middle game more, or just remove levels, then you wouldn't out level anything.
I haven't read the entire thread...sorry if this came up. MMO's mimic real life. You start off at level 1 with few abilities and quite vulnerable. You have little knowledge of the game environment. So, at level 1 you are given tasks. These tasks are relatively challenging, but that challenge teaches you about life in the game. So, you progress through the levels. You continue to grind through the quests and get more powerful and knowledgeable about life in the game. Ultimately you hit max level and the natural progression is to move into the eternal grind for gear, that is end game.
Funny this whole game follows the EXACT same pattern that children, all over the world, go through school. You start at Kindergarten and move your way through Grad School - End Game. Then, you start the eternal grind which is adult life acquiring power, money, family, material things, etc. People are conditioned, the world over, to operate like this. levels separate and announce to all others your level of proficiency and ability and it is how we, at first, compare our accomplishments against other's.
Finally, the OP should really pay attention to the spell checker that is built into the board. Did he just think all that red was to "pretty" the post up? LOL
All I got to say is "Final Fantasy 11" before the increase leveling speed. I spent about 6 months (half casually,half not quite hard core) getting to level 40. But ill tell you what I LOVED every minute of it.
IMO FF11 balanced leveling/grinding/story and housing very well. Not to mention at anytime you could switch Jobs (classes) with just one character. Yes some you had to go on an adventure/quest for,but thats the POINT. it made it feel more worth it,more grounded because you had to earn that job(class). and it felt that much more rewarding.
but the biggest dalema is you CANT please everyone. Devs/publishers need to just focus on making a fun game. back before betas and forums lol where you bought a game and either: Loved it, Liked it, or Hated it.
Read that and immediately stopped when I discovered it was glorfying a game that by all intents and purposes is reaching out to one of the smallest subset of players this side of MMO'dom.
Whether it is grinding levels or grinding skills, which is basically the same thing, if you find it a mindless time-sink then you're playing the wrong kind of game. You should stay away from anything with RPG in it.
Go somewhere else and play your Sports/FPS/Racing games.
The reason why MMOs fail to deliver is because they've lost touch with what their essence is... a community based role playing game. All people care about is the loot piñata... end game... that's it. The part of the game that really requires the LEAST amount of effort to create. Why create worlds at all if all you want to do is stay in a box killing the same thing over and over again for loot that will be replaced a week later? Just log on, enter instance, kill something, log off. Now that's what I call fun... NOT. It's what you've turned every MMO into as of late. The developers are giving you exactly what you've asked for... a shallow simple game with nothing more than a carrot before you. You chose to ignore the world... ignore leveling... ignore just about everything but one... loot. Might as well be at a casino plopping quarters in a slot... that's all you are really doing.
If that is the case, MMOs are very well designed to its audience. Job well done.
oh, what you are not calling fun .. many are .. otherwise, why do you think millions are playing MMOs?
Yet all the games that are designed around fast leveling to get to the loot pinata fail, or become insignificant at best. you get the 'Rift effect': people loving the game at first yet leaving by the time 3 months were over. Meanwhile most people werent even 60 after 3 months in WoW.
The *only* fast leveling success in the history of the genre is one without gear based progression waiting at the end.
Well I have done it, it took me some time a lot of research and some digging around in my storage closet. But I have it actual physical proof that video games( I even got more than he asked), are not a mindless time sink.
So just pm me the address of the bridge you live under,and it's in the mail.
I feel exactly the opposite as OP. For me the leveling is the fun part in any rpg. Once I reach the level cap I usually get very bored and move on to a different game because gear grinding is a mindless, boring time sink to me. Vanilla WoW was the only exception to this, for me.
The more games I play, the more I tend to agree with the OP's line of thought. The reason is that leveling in any new game will rarely (if ever) offer me something I haven't seen before.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
The main argument I see for why "SLOW" leveling is needed, is because it makes people learn their class.
Well thats a common misconception. What if somebody played one spec while leveling, and switched to a new spec once at max level thats totally different. How would any of that level grinding, develop their skill in using those others specs?
We see this a lot in trinity based games. People level as DPS or something like it, but want to play Healer or Tank at endgame, which is a totally different play style.
Group content is the best way to develop Tanking and Healing skills. Not Leveling.
Seem like people also feel that people who dont like grinding, shouldnt play MMOs. Well when did it become set in stone that MMO gamers need to like grinding, and that all MMOs need to be grindy?
I to quit my favorite MMO (rift) during Storm Legion because of the huge level grind. I couldnt bare being locked away from content and features and builds after spending months as a max level already. The Level grind was long and boring killing mobs and mobs, or even Quest and Quest or whatever else in between.
Same thing in GW2. I was bored out my mind trying to level my alts after the big flood of hype wore off. Man that was crazy boring. Events and Hearts just were totally boring for leveling. After my Main got to 80, I refused to do hearts anymore because of how tired I am of Quest Grinding in MMOs. But outside of Hearts there was a hard time gaining consistent leveling exp which also felt slower than it already was with the heart grind.
Why do we need levels in MMO anymore?
All they do is lock away players from content.
Its a huge time sink. Prove me wrong!!!!
Take any Themepark MMO that has level grind. Now imagine how that game would be if it didnt have level. Everything would be endgame content. Imagine that for a moment. That seem like a better game than they currently are.
New MMO games launch with level grind, than when people get to max level, they find out that most of the development resources went into non max level content which become meaningless and outleveled. (SWTOR, Rift, WoW, etc)
But if that same game had no levels to begin with, all that content would be endgame instead of the tiny max level stuff.
Levels Segregate the community.
again Prove me wrong!!
The reason level based MMO's are prefered over Skill Based MMO's is becasue Skill Based MMO's are a bigger time sink than a level based. Prime example of this is EVE Online. In order to get any where in EVE Online you have to spend 2 - 3 years just on leveling skills alone. Where as a game like Rift or Everquest 2 you spend only 4 - 5 months to get to max level. The only exception to this is the Korean or Japanese MMO's like Final Fantasy and Lineage 2.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
The more games I play, the more I tend to agree with the OP's line of thought. The reason is that leveling in any new game will rarely (if ever) offer me something I haven't seen before.
Then stop game hopping and find the game that you can play longtime ?!?
I prefer the slow leveling. It is about the adventure not then end game at least that isway it should be. That is why i love good sandbox or mmo with deep story. Maybe i'm just old fashioned and have patience to enjoy old fashion epic story you know kinda like before video games we had books.
I think leveling on it's own is a mindless time sink and they are actually trying to make the game last longer for players.
But if the game is good enough and interesting enough to keep it fun and it doesn't make you feel like you're just wasting your time till you get to "the good stuff", then that's fine I guess. I know that it takes time for you to learn your class, but you shouldn't be forced to be bored as hell until you actually start having fun.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
In my opinion, I believe that the Mindless Time Sink referred to is, THE GAME.
I think everyone is in such a hurry to get to the end, wanting some fantastic End Game, that they don't take the time to actually PLAY THE GAME.
How many of you see a group of people make cap the first few days of the games release and then post how the game sucks? How do they know? They only skimmed over it. To me, that grind is most of the fun. Taking my time to enjoy the Game, the Story, The actual Play.
When you played your very first MMO you were wide eyed, A First. You took it all in. Everything that went into making the Game. Now everyone is past that and are in a huge hurry.
Comments
Sovrath, do you really expect players to find fault with themselves? Surely it must be anything but that!
Makes me wonder why they really want to be at the cap and why mmorpgs are the game for them. Why not FPS, RTS or MOBA games?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
And yet leveling is the only thing I truly enjoy!
I want to see another game that takes years to reach level cap but with player progression at timed intervals. My ddream is to play an Asheron's Call type of MMO that takes a minimum of 2-3 years to reach the level cap on a 3-4 hour, 5 day play cycle (this would be gated too, anything more is not carried over to Eff with powerlevelers and non-conformists) The thing with this system is that vertical progression is easily measured. Don't get me wrong I love lengthy leveling times but hate not getting spells, abilities and stat upgrades in a timely fashion. SO my game would have about on average every 2 hours an upgrade to either Stats, Abilities, or passive effects (like a talent tree). This is ontop of gear acquisition, which would further help break up the length in between character progression.
SUP
I voted that I agree, they are a mindless time sink. But they don't have to be.
Considering the larger portion of MMO players today want to start at the "end game", we won't see this changing anytime soon. Money talks.
Just imagine an MMO where the leveling was interesting, where players were engaged with what they were doing.
Just think if there were multiple ways of dealing with the obstacles thrown in our paths.
Ahh... such a wondrous pipedream...
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
One can dream ...
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
In MMOs, leveling is a mindless time sink prove me wrong
It's a mindset, that's all.
You "might" think grind, another person might think adventure.
Slow leveling means you get to spend alot of quality times in zones before moving on. Don't hafta change your gear constantly, makes the game last a lot longer.
Well for me anyways. I tried to play GW2 a month and a half, reached cap, just didn't feel like going on with it. Guss i still prefer vertical proggression. The only mmo that i played alot of time with was ffxi, and i hardly did any end-game.
Wish developers would focas on middle game more, or just remove levels, then you wouldn't out level anything.
I haven't read the entire thread...sorry if this came up. MMO's mimic real life. You start off at level 1 with few abilities and quite vulnerable. You have little knowledge of the game environment. So, at level 1 you are given tasks. These tasks are relatively challenging, but that challenge teaches you about life in the game. So, you progress through the levels. You continue to grind through the quests and get more powerful and knowledgeable about life in the game. Ultimately you hit max level and the natural progression is to move into the eternal grind for gear, that is end game.
Funny this whole game follows the EXACT same pattern that children, all over the world, go through school. You start at Kindergarten and move your way through Grad School - End Game. Then, you start the eternal grind which is adult life acquiring power, money, family, material things, etc. People are conditioned, the world over, to operate like this. levels separate and announce to all others your level of proficiency and ability and it is how we, at first, compare our accomplishments against other's.
Finally, the OP should really pay attention to the spell checker that is built into the board. Did he just think all that red was to "pretty" the post up? LOL
I'm not sure if I should post this as it may cause some people's reality to unravel.
Video games are mindless time sinks.
All I got to say is "Final Fantasy 11" before the increase leveling speed. I spent about 6 months (half casually,half not quite hard core) getting to level 40. But ill tell you what I LOVED every minute of it.
IMO FF11 balanced leveling/grinding/story and housing very well. Not to mention at anytime you could switch Jobs (classes) with just one character. Yes some you had to go on an adventure/quest for,but thats the POINT. it made it feel more worth it,more grounded because you had to earn that job(class). and it felt that much more rewarding.
but the biggest dalema is you CANT please everyone. Devs/publishers need to just focus on making a fun game. back before betas and forums lol
where you bought a game and either: Loved it, Liked it, or Hated it.
hallo ~_~
Read that and immediately stopped when I discovered it was glorfying a game that by all intents and purposes is reaching out to one of the smallest subset of players this side of MMO'dom.
SUP
Whether it is grinding levels or grinding skills, which is basically the same thing, if you find it a mindless time-sink then you're playing the wrong kind of game. You should stay away from anything with RPG in it.
Go somewhere else and play your Sports/FPS/Racing games.
Yet all the games that are designed around fast leveling to get to the loot pinata fail, or become insignificant at best. you get the 'Rift effect': people loving the game at first yet leaving by the time 3 months were over. Meanwhile most people werent even 60 after 3 months in WoW.
The *only* fast leveling success in the history of the genre is one without gear based progression waiting at the end.
Well I have done it, it took me some time a lot of research and some digging around in my storage closet. But I have it actual physical proof that video games( I even got more than he asked), are not a mindless time sink.
So just pm me the address of the bridge you live under,and it's in the mail.
Edit to correct silly mobile auto-corrections.
The more games I play, the more I tend to agree with the OP's line of thought. The reason is that leveling in any new game will rarely (if ever) offer me something I haven't seen before.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
The reason level based MMO's are prefered over Skill Based MMO's is becasue Skill Based MMO's are a bigger time sink than a level based. Prime example of this is EVE Online. In order to get any where in EVE Online you have to spend 2 - 3 years just on leveling skills alone. Where as a game like Rift or Everquest 2 you spend only 4 - 5 months to get to max level. The only exception to this is the Korean or Japanese MMO's like Final Fantasy and Lineage 2.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Then stop game hopping and find the game that you can play longtime ?!?
Do not agree with OP at all (but I'm sure there are such games, but I do not play them, I play only swtor, wow, aoc, war, gw2, ...).
But not sure why should I bother proving him, because I have impression he made religion out of his opinion. And with religion no proves helps.
I think leveling on it's own is a mindless time sink and they are actually trying to make the game last longer for players.
But if the game is good enough and interesting enough to keep it fun and it doesn't make you feel like you're just wasting your time till you get to "the good stuff", then that's fine I guess. I know that it takes time for you to learn your class, but you shouldn't be forced to be bored as hell until you actually start having fun.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
In my opinion, I believe that the Mindless Time Sink referred to is, THE GAME.
I think everyone is in such a hurry to get to the end, wanting some fantastic End Game, that they don't take the time to actually PLAY THE GAME.
How many of you see a group of people make cap the first few days of the games release and then post how the game sucks? How do they know? They only skimmed over it. To me, that grind is most of the fun. Taking my time to enjoy the Game, the Story, The actual Play.
When you played your very first MMO you were wide eyed, A First. You took it all in. Everything that went into making the Game. Now everyone is past that and are in a huge hurry.
I'm not in a Hurry, I enjoy the ride.
Once again, this is MY opinion.