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Originally posted by Rinna I don't want Wildstar to be free to play. I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's. Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop. I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why. 20 bucks a month... sound fair? Please give me back sub based gaming.
Originally posted by koljane Originally posted by Rinna I don't want Wildstar to be free to play. I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's. Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop. I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why. 20 bucks a month... sound fair? Please give me back sub based gaming.
Originally posted by Dogblaster Originally posted by koljane Originally posted by Rinna I don't want Wildstar to be free to play. I want their business model to be exactly like WoW's. Barrier to entry, submission based, almost all perks and fun stuff are part of a monthly sub, other non-game breaking, cosmetic fluff in a cash shop. I hate F2P games and the AH crash going on right now in Neverwinter is a perfect example of why. 20 bucks a month... sound fair? Please give me back sub based gaming.
Originally posted by SoMuchMass Originally posted by Siphaed
Those "features" are what raiders expect...what people who are obsessed with the carrot-style dungeon crawl expect.., but they are by no means a requirement or standard.
So stop trying to imprint your "MMO standards" on to other games and call them failures or bad based on them not meeting what you personally expect. There are games that are making big changes like GW2 and Wildstar because many of the WoW clones that stuck to those 'standards' have nearly bellied up because of being basically the same thing with a different skin.
GW2 isn't WoW; Wildstar isn't WoW. Don't like it? There's the door. However, Wildstar is similar to GW2 with it's action combat, dynamic environmental events; it has limited abilities on bar, but still gives players enough options during combat. But that's where the similarities end as Wildstar goes for a more humorous approach, includes housing, keeps the Trinity trope and sticks to a Sci-Fi theme instead of Fantasy.
There are standards that people expect, and "not just raiders". My point is GW2 is a bad example of a B2P system because the game launched without most features people expect in modern day MMOs. Thankfully WildStar has all of those features, based on interviews and will not launch an incomplete game.
We as consumers need to stop making excuses for games that are launched with sub par content and features because it only hurts the industry. People expect dungeon finders, they expect to queue for sPvP anywhere in the world, they except they can customize their UI. People shouldn't be going to third party sites for these services.
I don't really care for such things and I imagine a large portion of people who enjoy GW2 right now feel the same.
I want a more dynamic world - Check
I want my DPS class be valued as much as the "tank" or "healer" - Check
I want a world that I can explore, and not render "low level areas" obsolete - Check
I want a more flexible way of progression - Check
I want a game that doesn't bar me out of a zone, unless I grind till my gear is worthy of it - Check
Fortunately, the things I really cared about are serviced in their vanilla release. And they keep improving things. Color me satisfied.
Originally posted by tkoreaper Originally posted by Doomedfox Indeed and he is not paying monthly to be able to keep his copy of the game he is paying monthly to use the service that game can access like the cell phone can asses the net..... Stop paying your Phone Bills and stop Paying monthly Fees for an MMO what will happen?? Right in both scenarios you will not loose the Hardware (Phone/Game) but the actually service you could access with it. So no i am sorry but its not a big difference actually its no difference at all.
/facepalm I'm sorry you can't see the difference. If there was a way for phone companies to make money without charging a monthly based fee then you'd have something better to compare it to.... you're comparing a phone to a game lol.
The FACT is that a developer doesn't need to charge a subscription to be profitable. A truly great game will work with both models and neither and better or worse for the player, there is a difference for the developer however. Practice has shown that F2P with some kind of micro-transaction system is much more profitable than just a straight fee. Just because a game is F2P doesn't mean that it sucks or that it's a P2W, but this is where a lot of developers go wrong.
It doesn't have to be P2W to be successful and many of them think it does. What matters is the game at it's core... It needs to fulfill the needs of the player, needs to be entertaining, and needs to be fun. If it can do that, while at the same time be free, it will attract a ton of people... and what happens if you charge a small price for something a little exclusive and different? There's more people to buy it. You can have a thousand die-hard subscribers paying $15 a month or 2-3 thousand players playing for free who occasionally spend $5 here and there.
Look at a mobile game like Candy Crush that is free... how much money do you think those developers rack in? You think they'd make more if the game were $5? I highly doubt it.
He's comparing a service to a service. You, however, are comparing an MMO to a mobile game.
F2P = Good if no end game
P2W = not worth installing
P2P= Good if it has more then enough content for end game. End game is what its all about with P2P
I'm going to have to pass if it's a sub game. i don't feel like renting something I've already paid for.
I'll buy a box and perhaps even spend money in a cosmetics + convenience only cash shop, but I will not hand them money every month for nothing.
Here's the thing. I never think of F2P games as free. I always expect to pay around 2-3 months subscription costs for a couple of month's gameplay because I know that while the game might be free2play, it's not free2dev. I know they're going to get me for some money somehow, but I'm okay with that, because devs/publishers gotta make a profit.
So you could say that unlike many others, I actually expect and budget for free2play cash shop costs. And in most games, publishers don't take advantage of me too greatly (although, can I say: FUCK LOCKBOXES in any and all cash shop games?).
But I can't say the same for Neverwinter. It is a great example of what not to do. For a start, everything in the cash shop is way too expensive, even for cash shops. 40 dollars for a mount? 20 for a companion? 10 bucks for a bag? 6 bucks for 16 bank slots? Respec, 6 bucks. Rename pet, 6 bucks. etc. etc. They hit you hard there, but then you also have the constant need for Astral Diamonds for everything.. And when you read Astral Diamonds, you might as well think cash, because you'll rarely farm enough of them in a day to make ANYTHING affordable without using your MasterCard. Unless you dedicate your entire day/week to nothing but AD farming, and even then it's slow.
Everybody knows how F2P works, but you can not escape the cash grab in Neverwinter. Not if you want to do anything other than kill stuff. Most newbs in the game don't realize it, but the longer you play, the worse the cash grab becomes. Whether it's enchantments, tradeskills, socketing gear, simple day-to-day tasks and needs. Many necessities you can only buy with diamonds which are virtually the same as cold-hard cash.
I was a key-seller on Dragon, and despite beating the system, seeing some of the biggest profits on the AH and actually making more ZEN than I spent on keys, I can tell you Neverwinter IS the nightmare scenario that F2P haters warn about.
I left the game because of it. PerfectWorld's rank greed killed my goodwill, despite my belief that developer's need to see something for their efforts.
If Wildstar does decide to go F2P it should stay MILES away from this PerfectWorld's model. Stay closer to home and look at GW2 for inspiration.
Or be throroughly awesome and give us good subscription (and maybe Founders!) options.
I hope they go with P2P... I prefer it over gettting nickle and dimed.
As soon as the game company sells something in a shop, it interferes with the design of the game, because then it's in the game company's interest to hinder you from getting it through playing normally.. And that bothers me.
It's better everyone just pay monthly, and no shop.
Originally posted by nerovipus32 Most people these days won't pay a sub for an mmo because they are simply not worth it. if the game is p2p it will be a niche title.
Doesn't WoW prove the opposite or has WoW gone f2p recently?
It takes one to know one.
Fine, we'll compromise. I'll get my way & you'll find a way to be okay with that.
The only problem with F2P is that it's done wrong in about 99% of the western games.
A) It directly sells power.
It's way too expensive.
C) Heavy spenders get major advantage over F2Pers or low-to-medium spenders.
D) Their calculations are based on how much profit the CS brings monthly, not by how much they would 'require' a player to spend to play efficiently per month.
I could easily create an epic F2P /w CS system that was profitable and player friendly from the top of my head and I'm quite sure a _professional_ game developer could as well.
The problem here is investor greed which causes them to hold no gates barred when it comes to milking their customers. This usually ends up creating a game that dies faster than it was created.
The MMORPG market has changed into typical real life market where the customers retardiness is abused with no shame.
This is why "indie" developers like the team behind Path of Exile are doing great. They want to create a fun game while getting their own expenses paid and a little cherry profits on the top of that. They aren't trying to make millions maximal profit from every single thing.
Getting the extra oomph from your product is easiest by making unfriendly cashshops that provoke people in heavy spending and slap everyone else in the face.
F2P games are shit and I play them every now and then just for laughs. I could never get serious about an MMORPG that is not balanced P2P.
Has there ever been an exploit or exploiters in a subscription MMO? If the answer is yes, then the OP's logic for hating the F2P model is flawed.
Anyway, I don’t care if Wildstar is p2P, B2P of f2p. Eventually, I will play it.
Originally posted by bestever Originally posted by deveilblad Originally posted by FlyByKnight Originally posted by DOGMA1138 Originally posted by FlyByKnight I will never pay for a subscription to any game ever again in life. Not the way these developers and publishers move. I would rather buy a game upfront, and purchase "DLC" content and cosmetic items as I desire. All these games with these subscriptions or dishonest cash shops, fucking off game play to annoy players into buying currency... they're no good. Developers should be selling content for their game, and making good cosmetic things WORTH peoples purchases. Anything else is uncivilized. Full stop.
The problem is that DLC can never be produced fast enough and it will require the game to be heavily instanced ontop of splitting the player base.
And no MMO can survive on cosmetic items not unless you make all base items look like brown robes and then you break one of the most important pillars in an RPG which is customization.
Games like LoL can do that since they are not RPG's, they don't add new content champions or skins do not split the player base.
We've seen what items work in MMO's and those items are breaking the game, GW2 is the best case scenario and it's still quite bad, and games like NWN are simply a scam I've seen many people spending over 200$ in it in a very short while simply because for the most part pretty much every realistically achievable item is locked behind a paywall even drops in instances.
This is exactly why I would never ever in life pay for a subscription for a game again... EVER. If a developer isn't capable of creating new content or cosmetic things enticing enough to purchase as a one off, why would I pay a fee per month?
Is this for real ? F2P models are bad for the exact reason you just wrote... The team is so focused on coming out with schemes to make money out of the cash shop, they don't have time to create real content. A steady flow of money every month from a subscription makes the investors happy while giving time to create real content...
Personally, I would like a sub for Wildstar, but as some have said, I would buy the initial box + sub and free expansions. The way WoW works with an initial box price + sub + expansion full price is a little extreme... For the cash shop, if it's one like WoW where it's not even in game and only offers mounts and pets, do what you want I don't care. Only as long as it's mounts, pets, and perhaps costumes ? With the housing system so integrated into the gameplay, leave housing items out of any cash hop there might be...
What I would like to pay for Wildstar in terms of sub : 13.99$ a month ( just to beat WoW lol ) going to 9.99$ per month if you sub for 12 months.
Originally posted by bestever Originally posted by Shelvinarr It's sad when all I see is the subscription model dying slowly around me, I remember first subbing to Asheron's Call for 9.95 when it came out, I thought I was insane for paying 10 dollars a month to play a video game. But I loved it, then when other games came out and charged 12.95, AC adjusted their prices to stay competitive. I didn't complain, I loved the game, I paid 12.95. Now, all I see are "F2P" this, "Cash shop" that. It breaks my heart, and it makes me sick a little on the inside that the industry has turned into a giant money grab scheme that we all keep falling for. It is us, the gamers, who have allowed this to happen. By playing these games, spending money in these cash shops, we've made sure the "F2P" era has started..and it is now the future. I hope everyone enjoys it, I haven't played a quality MMORPG in a long time.
That's because any mmo is a cash grab. I mean really, you think 14.99$ a month isn't a cash grab, but spending 14.99$ a month in a cash shop is. Love the logic on this site just love it.
Because F2P games do not cost 14.99$ a month to play to their full extent, more like...149.99$ a month... (obvious hyperbole thank you... ) and I'm sorry, but paying for bag space and character slots is just so ridiculous...
lol what game have you played that cost you 149.99$ a month, oh that's right none. Just talking out your ass got it.
I'm sorry if you fail to understand the meaning of hyperbole... Most intelligent people reading this will understand, so it's ok.
Originally posted by Aeander I'm going to have to pass if it's a sub game. i don't feel like renting something I've already paid for. I'll buy a box and perhaps even spend money in a cosmetics + convenience only cash shop, but I will not hand them money every month for nothing.
AH... you gotta love the new generation of ''I WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE'' mentality... You do not pay for NOTHING, you pay for (not exclusively) the salary of the devs working to give you more content every month... Let's assume you are old enough to have a job here (probably not), you expect to get paid for your work right ? Game developers do too... It's not that hard to understand... You are paying every month for the constant support and development made to the game...
It is not the payment model that determines content quality and quantity. It is the developer, regardless of payment model. I thought that this was known by now. Just look at the crappy subbased releases that included a cash shop from the start.
Stop thinking that having to pay for a sub gives you any guarantee besides the fact that you have to pay monthly. Without knowing how the game turns out to be at release it is naive to start talking money. How many failed releases do you need to learn that lol ?
Same, it be something different if it was a b2p game, I'll do a B2P game way before i go back to a P2p game, unless I can get time cards dirt cheap.
Originally posted by someforumguy It is not the payment model that determines content quality and quantity. It is the developer, regardless of payment model. I thought that this was known by now. Just look at the crappy subbased releases that included a cash shop from the start. Stop thinking that having to pay for a sub gives you any guarantee besides the fact that you have to pay monthly. Without knowing how the game turns out to be at release it is naive to start talking money. How many failed releases do you need to learn that lol ?
Cash shop DOES mean a game of lesser quality because they always have to think about how to make you spend in the cash shop, either by gating some content from you, or making a lot of small annoyances in the game if you don't buy certain items, and even with cosmetic only cash shop, they have to divert some of the focus on content to create cute little outfits and pets and stuff.... ( I don't know any F2P games that have ONLY cosmetic stuff... don't give me GW2 as an example, you can buy gold directly from them... )
So YES, the payment model does determine the quality of the game BECAUSE it changes the mentality of both the developers and the players.
Originally posted by genclaymore Originally posted by Aeander I'm going to have to pass if it's a sub game. i don't feel like renting something I've already paid for. I'll buy a box and perhaps even spend money in a cosmetics + convenience only cash shop, but I will not hand them money every month for nothing.
Cheap people lol...
Could you explain WHY we would be entitled to a game with many content updates on a regular basis with just a box price and nothing else after ?Let's compare here : Do you see many single player games give you DLCs for free ? Do you whine saying ''OMG THEY ARE ASKING ME 10$ FOR THAT SKYRIM DLC (example) ?!?! BUT I ALREADY PAID THE ORIGINAL BOX PRICE DUHHH'' Why do you feel entitled to free content updates because it's an online game ? I don't get people's logic these days...
Originally posted by AZHokie54 So you basically want the game to be dead 6 months after launch, check.
That case look at other P2P mmos that have died, P2p didn't keep them afloat either. Games like GW1 been around for a long time and they was B2P with EXP packs. GW2 is still doing good for a B2P game as well. P2p is gonna go away slowly even if you don't like it.
For the one I don't have a problem with paying a sub, I just dont see it as worth it any more and I used to do subs all the time. now a days I rather do B2P then P2P. You notice lately games that are P2p going to F2P any way. Atleast with it being B2P they can still get money from it, while charging money for DLC's and do something like Guild wars 1 did or what GW2 gonna do with EXP's.
Originally posted by deveilblad Originally posted by someforumguy It is not the payment model that determines content quality and quantity. It is the developer, regardless of payment model. I thought that this was known by now. Just look at the crappy subbased releases that included a cash shop from the start. Stop thinking that having to pay for a sub gives you any guarantee besides the fact that you have to pay monthly. Without knowing how the game turns out to be at release it is naive to start talking money. How many failed releases do you need to learn that lol ?
Why on earth did you assume I was defending cash shops? The sub fee +cash shop was just an example on how a game turned out to be subpar despite being p2p.
Cash shop is not part of the payment model, because cash shop items are never mandatory. Even if the sold items are p2w.
The payment model determines what you have to pay to access the game and play.
EDIT : To be clear, I agree with you about a p2p game designed with cash shop in mind. You will know as customer that the development is partly aimed at cash shop items instead of more content for the base game. But that is a different discussion.
they should do box + 5€ sub. why is everyone doing 12€/15$ subs nowadays..
hell i don't want it to be free2play
I too would prefer sub based model but in today's mmo market it's all B2P... I don't say F2P because none are honestly free, you eventually pay something.
Because i can.I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.Logic every gamers worst enemy.
Originally posted by fumoffu1 they should do box + 5€ sub. why is everyone doing 12€/15$ subs nowadays.. hell i don't want it to be free2play
Even 10$ / month would go a long way to get more subscribers ! They would need to start advertising with some kind of twist about how it's less expensive than others P2P games and, with the humorous atmosphere of the game, they could make it a joke ''Nexus doesn't need your 15$ ! You get remote area tax reductions !'' or something I don't know lol...
Originally posted by Aeander I'm going to have to pass if it's a sub game. i don't feel like renting something I've already paid for.
Careful now, you're treading on movie ticket analogy thin ice here.