Our Games, Our Money, Our Morality.

Tjed · May 2013

I think the whole idea in the OP is brilliant! Just to take it a step further, here are two other ideas to improve gaming,

1. Blizzard should start to give money to all the other companies that are not making enough. They have too much and need to share. Imagine how good all the other games could be if we take some of Blizzard's money and give it to them. EA too, and also maybe the yankees because I don't like them and they're too rich.

2. In order for us all to enjoy these games the way they are meant to be played, we all need to start using the same computers as well. No one can sell computers or computer parts anymore, every nation's government will be collecting them from your house and replacing them with a new standard issue, gaming PC. This will be funded by a wonderful new tax that everyone pays even if they don't play these games.

Personally, I can't wait for the new world order of pc gaming!

Demalis · May 2013

Originally posted by lizardbones

Now I really wish I could go on, but as someone pointed out I am walking the tightrope, and thanks for that. You purpose a tough argument one that I wish I could tackle. I will say this though that is just one of the stops on the rabbit hole, by all means. There are other places the hole goes as well, I just choose not to stop. For me it is all about the journey, the ideal improvement model would be ever changing for the sake of a common goal, not just about money.

So to you I concede, and will leave this thread as it may well get me banned.

Doogiehowser · May 2013

Originally posted by WhiteLantern
I don't even know where to begin with this one. Someone is actually trying to tie a form of entertainment to governmental archetypes.

Fascinating.

Fascinating and hilarious. I was laughing out loud..my wife thought i have gone mad!

Calerxes · May 2013

Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Calerxes

So how would the world economy work when everybody buys 1 car, 1 fridge, 1 kettle, 1 cooker, 1 toaster? and when I die I basically give that to my kids and then they give it to their kids and so on. It not that simple and where is your proof that we can make these everlasting product of super high quality for sensible prices? If you cannot see the difference in quality from a Toyota to a Ford then you really are not looking properly.

I sooo badly want to answer this and why it subscribes to a very flawed, though very ingrained, world view, but it would get me warned at least, so I won't.

Suffice to say I disagree in a very general sense.

Its a question and its not rhetorical and if your answer cannot be put in a civil way then its not really a valid answer is it?

You miss the point in what I am saying... I can indeed be very civil, but I have been temp banned from this site before for discussing ethics and politics in a very civil manner.

Answering you would cross both those lines. It's a shame, but there ya go.

Use the PM system then.

Calerxes · May 2013

Originally posted by Demalis
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Calerxes

So how would the world economy work when everybody buys 1 car, 1 fridge, 1 kettle, 1 cooker, 1 toaster? and when I die I basically give that to my kids and then they give it to their kids and so on. It not that simple and where is your proof that we can make these everlasting product of super high quality for sensible prices? If you cannot see the difference in quality from a Toyota to a Ford then you really are not looking properly.

I sooo badly want to answer this and why it subscribes to a very flawed, though very ingrained, world view, but it would get me warned at least, so I won't.

Suffice to say I disagree in a very general sense.

Its a question and its not rhetorical and if your answer cannot be put in a civil way then its not really a valid answer is it?

Well I can not answer this question, wish I could. But I will ask another question. In an economic system where 5% have 95% of the wealth based on design of that system. Additionally when that 5% is threatened the other 95% of the population has to pay more to fix the imbalance, I won't go into much detail here because it is dark. Is that a working economy?

Since this is pretty off topic I will try to bring it back... actually I won't. Are you not the guy that made the comment that the op was a female, yes your skills in logical arguments are unsurpassed. And your closing statements truly illustrate this.

I'm not sure what you last paragraph means but its certainly full of emotion. Is this theory of all you guys that are walking a tightrope into oblivion that radical I'll have to shoot myself after I hear it?

Drakynn · May 2013

OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

Sovrath · May 2013

Originally posted by DamonVile
edited for length.

To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.

I completely agree. Great example. regardless of the "obama bit".

There are people who love succeeding and love reaping the rewards of their success. There are people who aren't willing to do a damn thing.

I hold no grudges against either group as long as they do what they do legally, and ethically.

So I have no problem with people making money on their hard work and efforts as long as they don't purposefully screw people over. I have no problem with people "getting by" provided that they don't spiral into having others pay their way "just because".

But "things get done" because there are people who want to get things done and because they want to be "successful" doing it as well as reaping the rewards. This is not to say that one can't do things "just because" but usually people who work hard at something would rather not live paycheck to paycheck.

Sovrath · May 2013

Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

It's true there is a lot of socialism = communism floating around here but "no" they are not trained that "a free market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporation will take care of them because the free market works that way". That was never once "taught in schools".

It's just those who want to get the maximum out of the system who try to push that agenda.

Calerxes · May 2013

Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

I'm even more confused now, what is Socialism then or was it actually explained in your post and I missed it?

Quizzical · May 2013

If socialism produces better games, then where exactly are all of the great games produced by government-owned gaming studios? America's Army was basically an advertisement for the US military, and I can't think of any other meaningful government-made games. Even socialist countries tend not to try that for the obvious reason that the games produced would probably be dismal.

Gravarg · May 2013

The problem is that not all work is equal. I've worked hard 8-16 hour days for everything I own. I've always liked "back-breaking" work. Currently I make more than the tax Threshold that "someone" says I'm rich and should pay more taxes to give to someone who sits on a couch all day watching judge shows and junk shows. I'll give them 2-4x what the government does if they want to come work for me...but they're too lazy to do so.

Drakynn · May 2013

Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

It's true there is a lot of socialism = communism floating around here but "no" they are not trained that "a free market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporation will take care of them because the free market works that way". That was never once "taught in schools".

It's just those who want to get the maximum out of the system who try to push that agenda.

It may not be taught at schools but it's a view that is pushed politically by certain parties and has been bought into by a sizeable part of the population over the last century.This,political corruption,the birth of the short term stock exchange and a general attitude of complacency and laziness on consumers part has lead IMO to the "free market" being lopsided in favor of big business now now.

Calerxes · May 2013

Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

It's true there is a lot of socialism = communism floating around here but "no" they are not trained that "a free market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporation will take care of them because the free market works that way". That was never once "taught in schools".

It's just those who want to get the maximum out of the system who try to push that agenda.

It may not be taught at schools but it's a view that is pushed politically by certain parties and has been bought into by a sizeable part of the population over the last century.This,political corruption,the birth of the short term stock exchange and a general attitude of complacency and laziness on consumers part has lead IMO to the "free market" being lopsided in favor of big business now now.

Did you read Sovraths earlier post about the nature of big business and the common fallacies as to it being evil and self interested? I guess not.

TheLizardbones · May 2013

Originally posted by Quizzical
If socialism produces better games, then where exactly are all of the great games produced by government-owned gaming studios? America's Army was basically an advertisement for the US military, and I can't think of any other meaningful government-made games. Even socialist countries tend not to try that for the obvious reason that the games produced would probably be dismal.

Well, there's not. Even in China the games are produced and sold in a way that would be considered capitalist. It's not based on the games the central party thinks people need, it's based on what the developers think will sell, and then they try to sell them. The stuff that sells well makes money, and the stuff that doesn't sell well doesn't. The video game industry is almost universally a capitalist system, even in countries that would prefer more socialist systems.

Drakynn · May 2013

Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

I'm even more confused now, what is Socialism then or was it actually explained in your post and I missed it?

Taken from Wikipedia coz it's good enough general definition.

"Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.^[1] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.^[2] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.^[3] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism"

There are many types of socialism and yes Communism can be taken as one of them but it's an idealistic and unrealistic extreme of socialism that is in itself not evil but highly corruptible by evil or merely greedy men.

Just as the extreme of conservatism is Fascism or in some cases Theocracists but you don't here anyone including me saying that conservative democratic policies are fascists or theocrats because they are not just as Democratic Socialism is in no way communism.they are just different sociopolitical thought.

Drakynn · May 2013

Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

It's true there is a lot of socialism = communism floating around here but "no" they are not trained that "a free market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporation will take care of them because the free market works that way". That was never once "taught in schools".

It's just those who want to get the maximum out of the system who try to push that agenda.

It may not be taught at schools but it's a view that is pushed politically by certain parties and has been bought into by a sizeable part of the population over the last century.This,political corruption,the birth of the short term stock exchange and a general attitude of complacency and laziness on consumers part has lead IMO to the "free market" being lopsided in favor of big business now now.

Did you read Sovraths earlier post about the nature of big business and the common fallacies as to it being evil and self interested? I guess not.

I don't see what his posts have to do with it.A Free market lopsided toward one economic force is not healthy.Big Business in itself is not inherently evil but if not kept in check by opposing market forces and kept in balance leads to bad things.

Calerxes · May 2013

Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

I'm even more confused now, what is Socialism then or was it actually explained in your post and I missed it?

Taken from Wikipedia coz it's good enough general definition.

"Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.^[1] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.^[2] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.^[3] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism"

There are many types of socialism and yes Communism can be taken as one of them but it's an idealistic and unrealistic extreme of socialism that is in itself not evil but highly corruptible by evil or merely greedy men.

Just as the extreme of conservatism is Fascism or in some cases Theocracists but you don't here anyone including me saying that conservative democratic policies are fascists or theocrats because they are not just as Democratic Socialism is in no way communism.they are just different sociopolitical thought.

I knew that already, education in the UK is seemingly better than the US, but you could have put that in your previous post as a comparison to Communism so those who confuse the two might be enlightened instead of a general sweeping allegation accusing many US citizens that they cannot tell the difference.

Calerxes · May 2013

Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

It's true there is a lot of socialism = communism floating around here but "no" they are not trained that "a free market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporation will take care of them because the free market works that way". That was never once "taught in schools".

It's just those who want to get the maximum out of the system who try to push that agenda.

It may not be taught at schools but it's a view that is pushed politically by certain parties and has been bought into by a sizeable part of the population over the last century.This,political corruption,the birth of the short term stock exchange and a general attitude of complacency and laziness on consumers part has lead IMO to the "free market" being lopsided in favor of big business now now.

Did you read Sovraths earlier post about the nature of big business and the common fallacies as to it being evil and self interested? I guess not.

I don't see what his posts have to do with it.A Free market lopsided toward one economic force is not healthy.Big Business in itself is not inherently evil but if not kept in check by opposing market forces and kept in balance leads to bad things.

Thats applies moreso to Governments as they hold more power than any corporation can ever dream of, though most Americans have very little say in the matter when you have a two party system unlike in Europe.

maplestone · May 2013

I can only image two possible paths to actual socialism (the good socialism, not the strawman enemy socialism that is popular in American political rants).

One is for a selfless developer out there to pull a linux out of his hat, starting an open source project that can snowball and self-organize into a full-fledged game. This was the model that got the first MUDs rolling, so our whole hobby owes its existence to this very idea. However, for a modern MMO, that's a much harder proposition. Not only do you have to draw in a huge number of assets and skills, but you're up against a thriving industry full of companies on the hunt for an unclaimed niche. I fear that many of us who lament that the industry isn't making our dream game cling to dreams that are either very narrow.or highly impractical or, if our idea showed promise, would turn us into capitalists.

The other option is for an existing community (eg: a large, well-organized guild or an eccentric billionaire) to set up some form of not-for-profit organization for managing a dream that then puts out a tender to hire a game company to develop/run the game under contract. Essentially kickstarter in reverse: the community, not the game company would own the game and the contract could theoretically switch from one game company to another. As game industry moves more heavily into outsourcing, that creates a pool of programming companies experienced with games who could work within this model. But it would require a level of organization and unity amongst players on a far greater scale than I have yet seen as well as a commitment to this world in the face of all the alternatives that would come along.

TheLizardbones · May 2013

Originally posted by Demalis
Originally posted by lizardbones

Now I really wish I could go on, but as someone pointed out I am walking the tightrope, and thanks for that. You purpose a tough argument one that I wish I could tackle. I will say this though that is just one of the stops on the rabbit hole, by all means. There are other places the hole goes as well, I just choose not to stop. For me it is all about the journey, the ideal improvement model would be ever changing for the sake of a common goal, not just about money.

So to you I concede, and will leave this thread as it may well get me banned.

It would probably be pretty easy to poke holes in any reference I make to socialism. I do not keep up with these things since they don't come up in normal conversation very often. Capitalism I have a pretty firm grasp on. Self entitled whining too, since I've lived with teenagers in my house for over a decade.

I don't think you are in danger of getting banned just by posting in this thread, plus you're not insulting people, calling them out by name or anything of the kind. I wouldn't sweat it too much. Unless you don't think the discussion will be fun, which seems entirely possible. :-)

Vorthanion · May 2013

Originally posted by Slampig
Originally posted by Disatisfied9
Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?
Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

I'd honestly like to see more socialism in our games (Making the games devs themselves want to play, funded by crowds of gamers who like the idea), and less capitalism (WoW clones, boring pieces of crap, free 2 play vampirism).

I also don't understand people's backwards-logic defending companies, simply because they are "in the business to make money, not video games."

I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

Does no one have integrity or a sense of morality anymore? An idealogy that confirms the need for developers to get payed, but NOT at the expense of awful shitty products? Is the Almighty Dollar worshiped by many here as God, truly important enough to defend companies when they act out of a false idea of self-preservation (that is not preservation, it is simply overindulgent greed) instead of shun these companies for surrendering to greed watering down OUR games?

After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

That really made me laugh. It is totally ABSURD to think that a company, in an effort to make more money, would intentionally put out an inferior product. Pretty dumb to think that, you explain to me how that makes sense in ANY way shape or form.

Yet we see companies of all types getting caught cutting corners and making shoddy products or misleading services all the time. They get away with it for a short time, but eventually get called out and usually pay the price for such short sightedness. Sadly, the MMO industry is a beast of a different color where oversight is virtually non-existent and you have a consumer base that will buy anything no matter how many times they get burned. Let's face it, we are addicts and we let this industry get away with practices that we would not tolerate anywhere else.

TheLizardbones · May 2013

Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes Originally posted by Drakynn OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!! OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

I'm even more confused now, what is Socialism then or was it actually explained in your post and I missed it?

Taken from Wikipedia coz it's good enough general definition.

"Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.[1] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.[2] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.[3] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism"

There are many types of socialism and yes Communism can be taken as one of them but it's an idealistic and unrealistic extreme of socialism that is in itself not evil but highly corruptible by evil or merely greedy men.

Just as the extreme of conservatism is Fascism or in some cases Theocracists but you don't here anyone including me saying that conservative democratic policies are fascists or theocrats because they are not just as Democratic Socialism is in no way communism.they are just different sociopolitical thought.

Oh dear lord. Socialism is the sandbox gaming of economic systems. No wonder it always starts arguments.

Calerxes · May 2013

Originally posted by maplestone
I can only image two possible paths to actual socialism (the good socialism, not the strawman enemy socialism that is popular in American political rants).

One is for a selfless developer out there to pull a linux out of his hat, starting an open source project that can snowball and self-organize into a full-fledged game. This was the model that got the first MUDs rolling, so our whole hobby owes its existence to this very idea. However, for a modern MMO, that's a much harder proposition. Not only do you have to draw in a huge number of assets and skills, but you're up against a thriving industry full of companies on the hunt for an unclaimed niche. I fear that many of us who lament that the industry isn't making our dream game cling to dreams that are either very narrow.or highly impractical or, if our idea showed promise, would turn us into capitalists.

The other option is for an existing community (eg: a large, well-organized guild or an eccentric billionaire) to set up some form of not-for-profit organization for managing a dream that then puts out a tender to hire a game company to develop/run the game under contract. Essentially kickstarter in reverse: the community, not the game company would own the game and the contract could theoretically switch from one game company to another. As game industry moves more heavily into outsourcing, that creates a pool of programming companies experienced with games who could work within this model. But it would require a level of organization and unity amongst players on a far greater scale than I have yet seen as well as a commitment to this world in the face of all the alternatives that would come along.

You mean like Mark Shuttleworth, Canonical and Ubuntu?

Vorthanion · May 2013

Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

I'm even more confused now, what is Socialism then or was it actually explained in your post and I missed it?

Taken from Wikipedia coz it's good enough general definition.

"Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.^[1] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.^[2] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.^[3] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism"

There are many types of socialism and yes Communism can be taken as one of them but it's an idealistic and unrealistic extreme of socialism that is in itself not evil but highly corruptible by evil or merely greedy men.

Just as the extreme of conservatism is Fascism or in some cases Theocracists but you don't here anyone including me saying that conservative democratic policies are fascists or theocrats because they are not just as Democratic Socialism is in no way communism.they are just different sociopolitical thought.

Now that greed is no longer a bad word or considered a shameful state of mind, it trumps everything, politics or economics.

Drakynn · May 2013

Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Calerxes
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Drakynn
OP's argument was lost as soon as he mentioned Socialism.The majority of the people who come here are still from the U.S and they have been trained for over a century to believe Socialism = communism and that communism is the great evil that will destroy the world.They've also been trained that a Free Market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporations will take care of them because the free market works that way!!!

OP should of stayed away from words like socialism if he wanted a rational discussion here.

It's true there is a lot of socialism = communism floating around here but "no" they are not trained that "a free market is one without any oversight to prevent monopolies and fraud and that corporation will take care of them because the free market works that way". That was never once "taught in schools".

It's just those who want to get the maximum out of the system who try to push that agenda.

It may not be taught at schools but it's a view that is pushed politically by certain parties and has been bought into by a sizeable part of the population over the last century.This,political corruption,the birth of the short term stock exchange and a general attitude of complacency and laziness on consumers part has lead IMO to the "free market" being lopsided in favor of big business now now.

Did you read Sovraths earlier post about the nature of big business and the common fallacies as to it being evil and self interested? I guess not.

I don't see what his posts have to do with it.A Free market lopsided toward one economic force is not healthy.Big Business in itself is not inherently evil but if not kept in check by opposing market forces and kept in balance leads to bad things.

Thats applies moreso to Governments as they hold more power than any corporation can ever dream of.

That would be true if Corporations remained apolitical and politicians incorruptible neither of which will ever be true.Also Corporations especially Multinational ones wield lots of political power through influence.Government oversight is supposed to be part of what maintains a free market as is consumer activism both of which are failing right now.

I would agree that business as a market force should try to maximize their profits that is their role,however I do not agree that they should be allowed to do so amorally or without limits.

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