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Our Games, Our Money, Our Morality.

AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?

Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

I'd honestly like to see more socialism in our games (Making the games devs themselves want to play, funded by crowds of gamers who like the idea), and less capitalism (WoW clones, boring pieces of crap, free 2 play vampirism).

I also don't understand people's backwards-logic defending companies, simply because they are "in the business to make money, not video games."

I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

Does no one have integrity or a sense of morality anymore? An idealogy that confirms the need for developers to get payed, but NOT at the expense of awful shitty products? Is the Almighty Dollar worshiped by many here as God, truly important enough to defend companies when they act out of a false idea of self-preservation (that is not preservation, it is simply overindulgent greed) instead of shun these companies for surrendering to greed watering down OUR games?

After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

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Comments

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member

    I don't even know where to begin with this one. Someone is actually trying to tie a form of entertainment to governmental archetypes.

     

    Fascinating.

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • fantasyfreak112fantasyfreak112 Orange County, CAPosts: 499Member
    I would blame capitalism if every country wasn't all making the same crappy cash shop MMO's where content is an after thought. We can blame greed, which no amount of kickstarters are immune to. The CU folks will learn this the hard way when the false promises crumble one by one.
  • bartoni33bartoni33 Southern IllinoisPosts: 1,080Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?

    Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

    A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

    I'd honestly like to see more socialism in our games (Making the games devs themselves want to play, funded by crowds of gamers who like the idea), and less capitalism (WoW clones, boring pieces of crap, free 2 play vampirism).

    I also don't understand people's backwards-logic defending companies, simply because they are "in the business to make money, not video games."

    I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

    Does no one have integrity or a sense of morality anymore? An idealogy that confirms the need for developers to get payed, but NOT at the expense of awful shitty products? Is the Almighty Dollar worshiped by many here as God, truly important enough to defend companies when they act out of a false idea of self-preservation (that is not preservation, it is simply overindulgent greed) instead of shun these companies for surrendering to greed watering down OUR games?

    After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

    I agree 100%!

    It is a lonely world we both live in. Corporate shills abound. They think that they should suffer bad products in the name of greed because "they need the money, not doing it for free".  So what. Like you said, if they want to get rich hit up the stock market or some similar racket. If you want to make a good game then make it without thinking of the profits being made. Make it because you enjoy making games. Because you enjoy seeing your creations coming to life. Not getting filthy rich is not a bad thing. Living comfortably is not a sin.

    /rant off because no one cares or understands

    image

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,424Member Uncommon

     @ Op..Your thought and ideas are only good on paper and in a perfect world,since neither is relevant to actual game design,it is not the answer.

    The answer is simply the person in charge.How that person listens to others,what kind of morals and thoughts that person has are all big factors in the end result.

    I have been told by my elders and now after living a long life myself,that most success stories are because people were willing to lie/cheat/steal/mislead and step on other people's toes to become a success.

    That does not mean always ,as i said it is more about the individual's mind set and morals.

    The best way to design a game is to be straight forward ,that way you get honest feedback.if you present lies or misleading information,you might have a successful game,but not a good one.I hope people understand the difference between a success and a good game.There are absolutely millions of people out there can be easily fooled,just ask the used car salesman or the home brokers,so success does not mean good.

    This is why i try not to lose hope,i have seen those great minds enter the game development world over the years.There is actually a wiki on the most influential people of the rpg genre.Scroll down near the bottom and there is some interesting read there.Wikpedia

     


    Samoan Diamond

  • DOGMA1138DOGMA1138 none of your buidnessPosts: 476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?

    Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

    A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

    I'd honestly like to see more socialism in our games (Making the games devs themselves want to play, funded by crowds of gamers who like the idea), and less capitalism (WoW clones, boring pieces of crap, free 2 play vampirism).

    I also don't understand people's backwards-logic defending companies, simply because they are "in the business to make money, not video games."

    I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

    Does no one have integrity or a sense of morality anymore? An idealogy that confirms the need for developers to get payed, but NOT at the expense of awful shitty products? Is the Almighty Dollar worshiped by many here as God, truly important enough to defend companies when they act out of a false idea of self-preservation (that is not preservation, it is simply overindulgent greed) instead of shun these companies for surrendering to greed watering down OUR games?

    After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

    How the hell is making you pay before they even have a product to sell is considered socialism?

    Kickstarter is the mother of all capitalist dreams, make your potential costumers to pay you to make the product while you and the investors get all the profit.

    The fact that this may become a common practice even for big studios should be a concern to everyone, would you accept a drug company collecting payment from sick people to develop a drug, test it on them, and then sell it to them at market value?

     

  • SlampigSlampig Chantilly, VAPosts: 2,376Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?

    Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

    A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

    I'd honestly like to see more socialism in our games (Making the games devs themselves want to play, funded by crowds of gamers who like the idea), and less capitalism (WoW clones, boring pieces of crap, free 2 play vampirism).

    I also don't understand people's backwards-logic defending companies, simply because they are "in the business to make money, not video games."

    I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

    Does no one have integrity or a sense of morality anymore? An idealogy that confirms the need for developers to get payed, but NOT at the expense of awful shitty products? Is the Almighty Dollar worshiped by many here as God, truly important enough to defend companies when they act out of a false idea of self-preservation (that is not preservation, it is simply overindulgent greed) instead of shun these companies for surrendering to greed watering down OUR games?

    After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

    That really made me laugh. It is totally ABSURD to think that a company, in an effort to make more money, would intentionally put out an inferior product. Pretty dumb to think that, you explain to me how that makes sense in ANY way shape or form.

    That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?

    Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

    A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

     

    Nyet, comrade, I've seen enough of it in my lifetime.

    image

  • DogblasterDogblaster PraguePosts: 491Member

    After reading first sentence I stopped ...  ;)

     

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    Oh god... I think we've reached a new low.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • free2playfree2play Toronto, ONPosts: 1,868Member Uncommon
    Crowd sourcing is about as Capitalist as it gets. You pull stuff like that in China they would seize the assets.
  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern

    I don't even know where to begin with this one. Someone is actually trying to tie a form of entertainment to governmental archetypes.

     

    Fascinating.

     

    We could start with the Freudian Internet monika but we'd be here all day. image

     

    By the way I FRIKKING LOVE CAPITALISM image

     

    Kickstarter is perfect capitalism and you not allowed to bring Politics into MMORPG.com its against the AUP.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • AmjocoAmjoco Layton, UTPosts: 4,777Member Uncommon

    This topic is a blatant disregard of the RoC.

    edit: imho

    Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  • LawlmonsterLawlmonster Dallas, TXPosts: 953Member Uncommon

    In reality, and if you did some historical research regarding the economic woes of socialist countries, there's usually a lack of variety in their production, due to sole ownership residing in political or government entities, which often leads to inferiority; not the other way around. Kickstarter is a great case for capitalism, on the other hand, and how allowing citizens their own means to discover better, more efficient ways to produce can lead to the superiority of goods and services.

     

    I feel a bit depressed that this is even necessary to explain to anyone, though.

    "This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lawlmonster

    In reality, and if you did some historical research regarding the economic woes of socialist countries, there's usually a lack of variety in their production, due to sole ownership residing in political or government entities, which often leads to inferiority; not the other way around. Kickstarter is a great case for capitalism, on the other hand, and how allowing citizens their own means to discover better, more efficient ways to produce can lead to the superiority of goods and services.

     

    I feel a bit depressed that this is even necessary to explain to anyone, though.

     

    A visit to say Romania or Hungary would drive your point home me thinks.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    So, practically speaking OP, how would you implement this new paradigm ?

     

    Should the US government establish a "Federal Bureau of MMO Design" ?

    Funded by tax dollars ?

    And US-based players can just use their social security number to login ?

     

    On some fronts, it might be an improvement, that's true. NASA is legendary for the quality of its software, they have fewer errors per 1000 lines of code than any other developer of similar complexity. But that comes at a price, of course. An MMO developed by NASA would be virtually bug-free on launch day ('scuse the pun), but it would have only one class and would take 10 years to develop...

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    So, practically speaking OP, how would you implement this new paradigm ?

     

    Should the US government establish a "Federal Bureau of MMO Design" ?

    Funded by tax dollars ?

    And US-based players can just use their social security number to login ?

     

    On some fronts, it might be an improvement, that's true. NASA is legendary for the quality of its software, they have fewer errors per 1000 lines of code than any other developer of similar complexity. But that comes at a price, of course. An MMO developed by NASA would be virtually bug-free on launch day ('scuse the pun), but it would have only one class and would take 10 years to develop...

    And the servers would spontaneously explode every 6 years...

     

     

     

    Too soon?

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • Pr0tag0ni5tPr0tag0ni5t Lincoln, ILPosts: 220Member
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    So, practically speaking OP, how would you implement this new paradigm ?

     

    Should the US government establish a "Federal Bureau of MMO Design" ?

    Funded by tax dollars ?

    And US-based players can just use their social security number to login ?

     

    On some fronts, it might be an improvement, that's true. NASA is legendary for the quality of its software, they have fewer errors per 1000 lines of code than any other developer of similar complexity. But that comes at a price, of course. An MMO developed by NASA would be virtually bug-free on launch day ('scuse the pun), but it would have only one class and would take 10 years to develop...

    And the servers would spontaneously explode every 6 years...

     

     

     

    Too soon?


    You my friend, are my new favorite person image +1

    image
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,638Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pr0tag0ni5t
    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    So, practically speaking OP, how would you implement this new paradigm ?

     

    Should the US government establish a "Federal Bureau of MMO Design" ?

    Funded by tax dollars ?

    And US-based players can just use their social security number to login ?

     

    On some fronts, it might be an improvement, that's true. NASA is legendary for the quality of its software, they have fewer errors per 1000 lines of code than any other developer of similar complexity. But that comes at a price, of course. An MMO developed by NASA would be virtually bug-free on launch day ('scuse the pun), but it would have only one class and would take 10 years to develop...

    And the servers would spontaneously explode every 6 years...

     

     

    Too soon?


    You my friend, are my new favorite person image +1

    I LOL'd. :)

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9

    After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

    Correction:

    World revolves around money, money pays everything, wages, bills, food, quality of life etc etc etc.

    You can be all idealistic about this and talk about ideals, dreams etc, in the end it comes down to earn more bucks then you're paying.

     

    With that said;

     

    They are NOT your games.

    The games belong to the license holders, to be blunt: you are just a renter of their service.

    They have a game, they offer you a service to rent time to play in their game. You are bound to their rules when you pay a subscription fee and agree to any ruleset -EULA- they bring forward.

    All assets in the games including characters belong to the owners of the game, not the players. When they pull the plug on the game when it dies, it's all gone.

     

     

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • NikopolNikopol The ZonePosts: 626Member Uncommon

    Oooh, politics, run awaay! image

    Seriously, as long as people keep a civil tone, I don't see what's so bad discussing politics. I don't know, is this a cultural thing? We get into politics all the time in our daily lives (even in relation to a lot of gaming topics), so it feels weird and even a bit creepy to me to enforce otherwise.

    As for the OP, I don't agree with its observations on Kickstarter, as I think - like a lot of posters here - that it's pure capitalism. Especially with the perks that come as you pay!

    And, oh, about the "morality"... I guess you'll find, OP, that it'll vary quite a bit from country to country when it's related to the stuff of politics like property and community. For instance, every time I see some player use the word "welfare" in a derogatory manner, I just have to smile, because where I live there's no way you can use the word "welfare" in a negative light, it'd just sound absurd and people wouldn't even get what you're talking about! :)

     

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
    Originally posted by Dogblaster

    After reading first sentence I stopped ...  ;)

     

    I made it to Kickstarter = Socialism.

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
    Originally posted by Nikopol

    Oooh, politics, run awaay! image

    Seriously, as long as people keep a civil tone, I don't see what's so bad discussing politics. I don't know, is this a cultural thing? We get into politics all the time in our daily lives (even in relation to a lot of gaming topics), so it feels weird and even a bit creepy to me to enforce otherwise.

    As for the OP, I don't agree with its observations on Kickstarter, as I think - like a lot of posters here - that it's pure capitalism. Especially with the perks that come as you pay!

    And, oh, about the "morality"... I guess you'll find, OP, that it'll vary quite a bit from country to country when it's related to the stuff of politics like property and community. For instance, every time I see some player use the word "welfare" in a derogatory manner, I just have to smile, because where I live there's no way you can use the word "welfare" in a negative light, it'd just sound absurd and people wouldn't even get what you're talking about! :)

     

    Discussing politics on the internet, especially in a gaming forum, is like breakdancing on traintracks.

  • NikopolNikopol The ZonePosts: 626Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by wordiz
    Originally posted by Nikopol

    Oooh, politics, run awaay! image

    Seriously, as long as people keep a civil tone, I don't see what's so bad discussing politics. I don't know, is this a cultural thing? We get into politics all the time in our daily lives (even in relation to a lot of gaming topics), so it feels weird and even a bit creepy to me to enforce otherwise.

    As for the OP, I don't agree with its observations on Kickstarter, as I think - like a lot of posters here - that it's pure capitalism. Especially with the perks that come as you pay!

    And, oh, about the "morality"... I guess you'll find, OP, that it'll vary quite a bit from country to country when it's related to the stuff of politics like property and community. For instance, every time I see some player use the word "welfare" in a derogatory manner, I just have to smile, because where I live there's no way you can use the word "welfare" in a negative light, it'd just sound absurd and people wouldn't even get what you're talking about! :)

     

    Discussing politics on the internet, especially in a gaming forum, is like breakdancing on traintracks.

     

    You mean, it's fun? :P

     

  • wordizwordiz Eugene, ORPosts: 464Member
    Originally posted by Nikopol
    Originally posted by wordiz
    Originally posted by Nikopol

    Oooh, politics, run awaay! image

    Seriously, as long as people keep a civil tone, I don't see what's so bad discussing politics. I don't know, is this a cultural thing? We get into politics all the time in our daily lives (even in relation to a lot of gaming topics), so it feels weird and even a bit creepy to me to enforce otherwise.

    As for the OP, I don't agree with its observations on Kickstarter, as I think - like a lot of posters here - that it's pure capitalism. Especially with the perks that come as you pay!

    And, oh, about the "morality"... I guess you'll find, OP, that it'll vary quite a bit from country to country when it's related to the stuff of politics like property and community. For instance, every time I see some player use the word "welfare" in a derogatory manner, I just have to smile, because where I live there's no way you can use the word "welfare" in a negative light, it'd just sound absurd and people wouldn't even get what you're talking about! :)

     

    Discussing politics on the internet, especially in a gaming forum, is like breakdancing on traintracks.

     

    You mean, it's fun? :P

     

    Go try and breakdance on some traintracks. See how fun it is.

  • BrucyBonusBrucyBonus londonPosts: 220Member
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Why do people defend capitalism like it's some holy grail or altruistic idealogy?

    Obviously MMORPG's are an extremely convincing case of when capitalism fails and ruins things.

    A better system, socialism, provides higher quality products. Kickstarter = socialism.

    I'd honestly like to see more socialism in our games (Making the games devs themselves want to play, funded by crowds of gamers who like the idea), and less capitalism (WoW clones, boring pieces of crap, free 2 play vampirism).

    I also don't understand people's backwards-logic defending companies, simply because they are "in the business to make money, not video games."

    I'm sorry, but a video game company should not destroy the quality of its product simply to make a larger profit. That does not make it moral, even if the company only exists because of money. Perhaps the company should seek to be in the business of video games to make video games. If you want to be in the business of making money, go play with stocks or invade another country so you get contracts for years to come.

    Does no one have integrity or a sense of morality anymore? An idealogy that confirms the need for developers to get payed, but NOT at the expense of awful shitty products? Is the Almighty Dollar worshiped by many here as God, truly important enough to defend companies when they act out of a false idea of self-preservation (that is not preservation, it is simply overindulgent greed) instead of shun these companies for surrendering to greed watering down OUR games?

    After all, we play them. They are our games. We buy things we play. If they were not OUR games, the company's would not have OUR money, and would quickly go out of business. WE are the reason people make games. If not for gamers, no one would play, and not even indies would want to make something for no one.

    My job basically involves fluffing up money for people who already have too much.  I hate it, I would love to be a fire fighter or such like and go home with a sense of accomplishment; unfortunately it would involve a huge reduction in my salary so I don't do it.  

    My point is, capitalism is evil.  Haha that wasn't my point  but sod it.  

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This discussion has been closed.