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Death? What's that? (How many times do you expect to die?)

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Comments

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,742Member Uncommon

    There is no set "distance" to endgame, so 100+ deaths might be fine or 10 deaths might be too much.

    People get pissed if they die "even without penalties" (even though there are penalties) because failure is failure and most people don't need to also be whipped viciously by a game to want to avoid failure.

     

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Iselin

    It's actually very simple: it's all about making you feel "heroic" when soloing. Same thing with the trend to give you "personal story quests."

    In older MMOs surviving was more a function of bringing along a sufficient number of friends. Now that they're all being developed with solo play in mind, they're programmed differently.

    The new ones are not even balanced around you being able to kill one mob without dying. Your abilities are now balanced around you being able to take on a group of them all by yourself and surviving.

     

    That's only because killing one mob at a  time (alone or with a group) is rather boring.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by Iselin

    It's actually very simple: it's all about making you feel "heroic" when soloing. Same thing with the trend to give you "personal story quests."

    In older MMOs surviving was more a function of bringing along a sufficient number of friends. Now that they're all being developed with solo play in mind, they're programmed differently.

    The new ones are not even balanced around you being able to kill one mob without dying. Your abilities are now balanced around you being able to take on a group of them all by yourself and surviving.

     

    That's only because killing one mob at a  time (alone or with a group) is rather boring.

    Tell that to a single target DPS specialist... oh wait, they don't exist any more.

    I'm trying to think of the UFC equivalent. I don't just fight George St. Pierre, I fight one George and 6 mini GSPs... you're right. It's less boring.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,742Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Tell that to a single target DPS specialist... oh wait, they don't exist any more.

    Hopefully we're not lamenting the loss of classes who were specialized in such a way that when a second mob appeared (let alone 3+) they were very sad.  Talk about a massive constraint on a designer's ability to design interesting fights, "You can only design fights where 75% of the fight is spent DPSing against one mob; otherwise either the AOEers or the Single-Target DPSers become overpowered."

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    Yes please. More death penalties, danger, and challenges (PvE).
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Tell that to a single target DPS specialist... oh wait, they don't exist any more.

    Hopefully we're not lamenting the loss of classes who were specialized in such a way that when a second mob appeared (let alone 3+) they were very sad.  Talk about a massive constraint on a designer's ability to design interesting fights, "You can only design fights where 75% of the fight is spent DPSing against one mob; otherwise either the AOEers or the Single-Target DPSers become overpowered."

    No. Let's just give everyone AOE, healing. mitigation and single target spike damage. Some can hold a bow, others knives others swords and one old guy with a staff....let's make them all the same but call them different things.

    "Rain of arrows", "fan of knives"...please. Yes let's call the trend to make everyone equal a good thing. You know it's leading to one single class, right?

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 dublinPosts: 2,735Member
    End game, the worst thing to happen to the mmorpg genre.
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Matrix, NYPosts: 911Member Uncommon
    I don't want to ever die, so I expect to not die at all. An MMO or any game, shouldn't punish you for playing. It should be rewarding and fun.

    image
  • azmundaiazmundai St Louis, MOPosts: 1,417Member

    log in
    roll face across keyboard
    collect purples
    log out

    any deviation from this tried and true format is unacceptable.

    LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
    I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 812Member Uncommon
    Maybe the player was just tired of your group?

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • xeniarxeniar Posts: 805Member Uncommon

    humz. How many deaths do it tolerate before reaching endgame.

    Depends on how i awnser the question:P

    I myself tolerate 0 deaths. Not that i flip out when i die, But i think i should be ashammed if i die unless contect is really really hard. and i want to be punished accordingly.

    It really depends on how hard the content is. walk in the park i should not die at all. an actuall challange il give it my all means not to die. but if i would well yeah thats's oke. il vote 0

     

    edit: im not sure how i feel about penalties after reaching cap.

    Imo reaching Cap should be a long hard journey if you die youl hate yourself for it. When u reach Cap  it should be oke imo. other chalanges come your way then. I remember in EQOA when u died u got a death penalty of 10% on current level. so you would not lose any exp. but u needed more to level up. and during your death penatly your exp bar moved so slowly it was agonizing:P and it could stack 5 times. When i finnaly got to the level cap the first thing i did was try to kill some mobs wich we alway avoided before (and by avoiding i mean u circle around by miles not to pull aggro) Stil got three shotted but that was my reward of getting to cap i could now be a little more reckless and try new chalanges wich where around the world like terrorantula and his nasty aoe poison http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c3Cs_VarZI

  • maplestonemaplestone Ottawa, ONPosts: 3,099Member

    I plan my adventures as if my character had only one life.  So I never go up to a monster expecting to try a fight it 4-5 times before figuring out the enemy's moves.

    When my character does die, it's usually because I got bored or lazy and just tried to do something too quickly.  While the character still lives, I will keep fighting to escape from even the most impossible situation.  After the character dies, I will usually go back and complete what I was trying to do then decide if I need to take a break.  This is one the little things that turns me off of formal grouping - after a death, it doesn't feel right to rejoin the party and carry on as if nothing had happened.  And it makes PvP completely unsuitable for me.

    Just because something is mathematically not a setback, doesn't mean that it doesn't matter in my imagination.

  • AxehiltAxehilt San Francisco, CAPosts: 8,742Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin

    No. Let's just give everyone AOE, healing. mitigation and single target spike damage. Some can hold a bow, others knives others swords and one old guy with a staff....let's make them all the same but call them different things.

    "Rain of arrows", "fan of knives"...please. Yes let's call the trend to make everyone equal a good thing. You know it's leading to one single class, right?

    When only certain classes have AOE it actually strongly limits the types of boss designs people can make (and also creates the whole "you can only ever fight 1 monster at a time" problem mentioned before, which isn't as fun.)

    When only certain classes can heal well or mitigate well, that doesn't strongly limit the types of bosses that can be designed.

    I'm actually not against giving classes access to everything, but locking them into a finite set of capabilities during combat.  As long as you need at least 3 players to be capable of fielding every required character capability, a game is going to have good fun grouping.

    So if standard group combat requires 10 distinct traits (from specific buffs to taunt+mitigation to healing to DPS to AOE and beyond) and your class can literally utilize all 10 traits but only 3 at one time, then you're in a situation where you will end up being very specialized in any given group setting and provide crucial value to the group.

    But if a game has a class which literally cannot ever AOE, then you suddenly can't be quite as flexible with boss designs and have to always account for that gimped overspecialized build.

    "Joe stated his case logically and passionately, but his perceived effeminate voice only drew big gales of stupid laughter..." -Idiocracy
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Axehilt
     

    No. Let's just give everyone AOE, healing. mitigation and single target spike damage. Some can hold a bow, others knives others swords and one old guy with a staff....let's make them all the same but call them different things.

    "Rain of arrows", "fan of knives"...please. Yes let's call the trend to make everyone equal a good thing. You know it's leading to one single class, right?

    You really need to play more games other than MMORPGs.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • bliss14bliss14 eleva, WIPosts: 565Member

    I fell of a cliff in GW2.  Miraculously I emerged from a waypoint a quarter of the way around the world five seconds later none the worse for wear with my gear in completely serviceable condition.   The gods must smile upon me!

    I expect to die a thousand more little deaths.

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    Originally posted by TheScavenger
    I don't want to ever die, so I expect to not die at all. An MMO or any game, shouldn't punish you for playing. It should be rewarding and fun.

    I can only imagine how fun a game would be that simply handed you everything. They need to remake Metal Gear Solid so that all of the soldiers are deaf, dumb, and blind so you can sneak by them all easier. They need to remake FFVII so that when you die you pick up at the exact place you left off, never mind save points. They need to remake The Longest Journey so that you have to add 2+2 to advance the story. Never mind the complex puzzles they made for the game.

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by Axehilt
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Tell that to a single target DPS specialist... oh wait, they don't exist any more.

    Hopefully we're not lamenting the loss of classes who were specialized in such a way that when a second mob appeared (let alone 3+) they were very sad.  Talk about a massive constraint on a designer's ability to design interesting fights, "You can only design fights where 75% of the fight is spent DPSing against one mob; otherwise either the AOEers or the Single-Target DPSers become overpowered."

    No. Let's just give everyone AOE, healing. mitigation and single target spike damage. Some can hold a bow, others knives others swords and one old guy with a staff....let's make them all the same but call them different things.

    "Rain of arrows", "fan of knives"...please. Yes let's call the trend to make everyone equal a good thing. You know it's leading to one single class, right?

    In newer games all classes are virtually the same thing. The only real difference is how often you have to spam a button or skill.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by dave6660
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by dave6660

    In most mmorpg's, I no longer care how many times I die.  It doesn't really matter.  Nothing is lost, nothing changes, it's barely even an inconvenience.  Sometimes it's even useful.

    I'm not even sure what the purpose of dying in an mmorpg is anymore.  In a game that never ends, where you have infinite lives and backward progress is impossible why even bother with a death mechanic.  If they made all characters immortal, what would really change?  Many players would probably be happy about it.

    The purpose is to reset your challenge. Fight a boss .. if you wipe, it resets. That maintains the challenge, so you cannot zerg.

    It is just a reset. There should be no penalty.

    Then why not just have the boss' health reset to full and let the fight continue.  The death mechanic is still useless.

    To me, death in these games seems more symbolic then anything.

    Because you need to reset other mechanics too. If a boss has 3 stages .. you don't want the fight to start at stage 3, even if the boss health is up to max.

    The "death" mechanics is not useless .. again ... it resets the fight. Resetting is useful to maintain a challenge. Now you don't have to call it "death" .. but whether it is just a "death" or a "reset" makes zero difference .. just semantics.

  • IcewhiteIcewhite Elmhurst, ILPosts: 6,403Member

    The stunning and new revelation in this thread is: people admit to ever failing in an MMO.

    You're losing Hardc0re Cred, yo.

    Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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