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Originally posted by tordurbar The whole "why are mmo's not civil anymore" question is just a comment on society - throughout the world. The more people there are the more rectums there are both in games and in life.
Yeah .. it is human nature.
I don't play games to be social. I play games to have fun. Just focus on the entertainment aspect of games.
Originally posted by jayarte Well, as always, and in agreement with some previous posters, I think it might be useful to think of a wider context than just games. I find it very hard to accept that people behaved better in games like EQ because of game design. Personally, I am polite, friendly and generous with other players regardless of context (ie whether a pug or group with guildies) because that's how I am in the rest of my life (well, most of the time). I like to be helpful in real life, ergo I like to be helpful in games because I'm still me, I'm just me playing a game. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a saint, and I hate when other players are rude, selfish, greedy etc, and I quickly withdraw from such people. I notice a tendency for this type of behaviour generally now, though. People seem to be more stressed on the whole and stress causes irritability which can lead to aggressive behaviour. It may be that I'm mis-remembering the past (I'm 56 and live in the UK), but my memory is that people's attitudes to one another were different in the 50's/60's and 70's. They started to change here in the 80's with the whole yuppie thing ... me, me, me, my rights, my career, my big house/car etc. I'm talking broad brush strokes here, of course, the picture is much more complex, but I'm simply saying that I've noticed a change in people's attitudes generally over the past 20-30 years and that obviously this will be reflected by player behaviour in games.
I agree with you. People are different today. I usually blame Ayn Rand but that's just my somewhat obscure shorthand way of saying that, at least in the western world, selfishness is much more socially acceptable than it has ever been.
You mention the yuppies of the 80s and I don't disagree but I think the context is even wider. The world was reshaped in those same '80s yuppie years by Reagan, Thatcher and others with the whole bogus concept of "trickle down economics." 30 odd years later we are living in the aftermath of this Big Lie and the "common man" has a lot of anger, resentment and frustration just barely restrained.
That anger spills over everywhere people feel safe enough to express it...and the internet, an anonymous place to do it with few if any real consequences, is as safe a place as there is.
We now know for a fact that hard work is not rewarded... that people born at 3rd base all think they hit a triple... our favorite pastime is virtual stalking of the rich and the famous. Greed is good and admirable and the "smart" thing to do is lie, cheat and kill your way to the top just like those very same people we watch nightly on TV. Those things influence any and all social interactions and we see it manifested in the social games we play by a much larger incidence of total selfishness and asshattery.
People here constantly kid themselves about game systems being the root cause of these problems. You'd have to live a very isolated life disconnected from the real world to believe that all of this objectionable behavior is not also happening at an increasing rate in RL as well.
We play these games partly to escape from all that but it follows us here and it's much more evident in the games. These are social games and, like it or not, you have to cope with the social part of it in pretty much the same way you do in RL: you huddle together with friends and family (guilds) and when you can't, you go about your business quietly by yourself (solo game play.)
The biggest difference is that it's much easier to see in games who the anti-social predators and asshats are since there is very little reason for them to hide it. I only wish they were as easy to identify and avoid in RL. The harshest imaginable consequences of bad MMO behaviour, banning, is something they can just shrug off while moving their act over to one of the other 100 MMOs.
So... deal with it. Find a group of like-minded individuals and stay with them: the selfish asshats are here to stay...and, oh yeah, beware PUGs.
Originally posted by ThaneUlfgar I think it's really pretty simple. The more people who are playing games; the more likely you are to encounter unsavory individuals.
nope, the simple answer to this is the lfg tool what lets you gather dungeon group just like that, no need communicate , socialize or make any effort to get that group at first place, suuuure be a jerk you never see those who randomed with you again. thats what its all about.
Originally posted by BearKnight I've been reading a lot, and experiencing...A LOT, of anti-social gamers recently in newer titles. Specifically in Rift, Neverwinter, and SWTOR when I gave them a test-drive. By anti-social, I mean PUG groups that act worse than your creepy next-door neighbor whom always yells at you about your cat running around your apartment at odd hours of the night. I'm used to PUG groups being fun & enjoyable from previous titles like EQ1, SWG, AC1, AC2, etc etc. It was all about socializing, getting to meet new people, learning how to play classes better because that one magician could solo 9 mobs at once that were 3 levels above him, etc. Nowadays if I EVER do a "pickup group" I'm left with mute ninja-looting immature children whom scoff at the thought of using real words rather than short abbreviated statements such as "Nope LOL", "u Mad?", or [insert expletives as an adjective followed by your instead of you're]. Instead of being nostalgic for gameplay of the past I'm starting to become nostalgic for the communities of the past . -Bear
IMHO. The fault lies solely with Everquest. EQ is the main reason no one wants to be overly sociable. Its the path that gamers in the end choice for themselves, and now it is something we live with.
Now I will say I'm not pro-sandbox or pro-themepark. At my core I am a gamer, all I care about is if it's fun or not. But more or less when MMO gaming was in its infancy we had a choice between the Red pill (UO) or the Blue pill (EQ). We picked the Blue pill.
Both games required a lot of interaction between players. Though the interactions were different. The problem more or less was in one being more loot based then the other. EQ emphasized loot progression. Which brought about most of the bad things that makes people not want to group up.
Ninja Looters - The heavy emphasis on loot brought about this.
Guild drama - The heavy emphasis on loot brought about this. As a result of Ninja looters.
Corpse Camping - Gear was too valuable to just leave on corpse. Where as in UO stuff could be easy or hard to replace depending on what it was.
Guilds dominating best loot spots - The heavy loot emphasis, and need to be geared to get better loot.
Solo play - Ninja looters and Guild drama brought about this. If I kill it solo I don't have to worry about sharing loot.
Scammers - Both UO and EQ had these, but the lost was imho much more painful when it came down to EQ items.
Train makers - Nothing was more annoying then losing XP because someone either in your group or outside your group, screwed up. Spend hours getting that XP bar to move only to have it wiped away in mere moments.
Alot of the problems I see in MMO's now make me think back to my days playing EQ. Then I think about the other MMO's I played like DAOC or even AC:Darktide and realize I never really saw those problem pop up there. Just in the games that were too "EQ" like.
In War - Victory.In Peace - Vigilance.In Death - Sacrifice.
Originally posted by Cod_Eye Originally posted by AeonZen Originally posted by VengeSunsoar Originally posted by AeonZen
Aye, okay I may have been reaching on the social being socialism. It's just, like in highschool when the group points to the kid who's having issues at home or something, then call him anti-social and other names without having any consideration for what he's going through. No empathy. This word, along with community gets thrown around ALL THE TIME as some kind of saving grace of MMORPGs. When I actually am communicative in games, I'm pretty super friendly and sometimes even start role playing. Sometimes I'll challenge people when they are bullying someone, yet I don't call people names of speak in the manner of the examples that I'm actually defending on this site.
Constantly saying people are anti-social or communities are horrible doesn't get us anywhere, just makes us stay divided and conquered. Sure, not everyone will like everyone else, and that's cool, yet maybe a little bit of tolerance for our differences would be beneficial.
I really passionate about this subject because recently, I've had my most crazy experience in an MMO. I came back to a game after a few months of being away, and I was just hanging in one of the big cities, and reading map chat, and it was just a bunch of people, talking about another person. Now I may have been paranoid, but it felt like they were talking about me, and I'm just like, "what?!". I barely remember what was said, yet it affected me so much that I deleted my character and the game. A few days later, I realized that I shouldn't stop doing something I enjoy to do, simply because others have issues with me. (This ties in the post above about shunning someone out of a community simply because people will gang up on that person, and why a comment like that breaks my heart). So I reinstalled the game, made a new character which then made me public enemy number one simply because I was different from the rest of the group. And I proceeded to get death threats. Now, it's nothing new, I've had people in real life do the same. But honestly all I was doing was doing was enjoying the game, yet because I didn't follow along with the crowd, the crowd was offended, and apparently because of me, they weren't enjoying their game.
So this leads me to conclude that really, the people behind the screens may not be enjoying their games to be intolerant of outsiders or people who are different.
In terms of society being beneficial. Well, I disagree about the Western world. We may have advanced technologically, yet it's a mess. Of course, I do think the levels of human consciousness is increasing thanks to the internet, ancient eastern practices and healthy/clean western living(lots of people run and work out), yet popular culture is a mess, and doesn't help people.
The music is pretty bad, especially compared to what I listen too. Television induces alpha brain wave states, and I'm not sure about today, but I don't watch any new shows, the last show I loved that was good, in my opinion was LOST. Fringe was okay, yet I'm not even sure what's on now and days.
See, our society is all about rush, so this seeps into the games. No time to role play. We're all stressed due to work and the constant rush, so in games we do the same.
Another thing too is, with the advent of Feminism is the west, it becomes tough for men to find success in the real life game, so success in video games becomes the next best thing, because people want to succeed, people want to be happy, people want positive, harmonious relationships.
So what I'm trying to say with all of this is, all this finger pointing and name calling doesn't help, and is simply the symptom of deeper issues that exist within the consciousness of the human being, due to environmental factors, and why it's super sad to read comments sometimes, a mixture of the picard facepalm and heartbreak.
But, at the same time I do love these forums, as I'm really into human behavior and figuring out what is going on in the world and what this is all about. Like it's kinda weird, that we're all here, talking about video games, on a pretty neat site.
Even with all this text, I'd still call myself an anti-social gamer.
I think as much as we try to be adults, inside we're still children, children who need love.
And as much as I dislike society, life and nature itself can and is very beautiful. We have so much abundance on this planet, even an abundance of games to play, hence why it's tough to see how we're not happy with games. I'm not saying never be critical, but common, we have it good in the west, and I mean, REALLY good, that's why I think we're lucky to have so many games, and I'm grateful not only to be able to play these games, but that I can actually spend time discussing the state of games.
SO, (see, lol, and I'm anti social ) the "problem" is human consciousness and education. And maybe elitism. Anyways, I've rambled way too much for one post.
Hopefully it's explained in here why I think being social is following along with the majority, it may not have direct connotations with socialism, yet in some ways they may be more linked than semantics with say.
Anyways, thank you for the feedback, allows me to learn more about myself and see where I am wrong and need improvement.
After a post like this I've gotta put a link to a song I love. Only 2,000 views. This probably illustrates my point exactly.
Interesting how you left out exactly why you was receiving death threats.
You are not disconnecting fantasy from reality.
Or maybe society is disliking you.
I actually didn't say anything to bring it about, it was just what I was revealing about my personality with my character that is different. Although I understand why I received it now, and I also understand now that I deserved it. I've been thinking/researching all night and figured out some things. I would reveal more of the story, yet it does get personal. So I deserved the name calling and threats, not because I was being evil, yet because I was being disruptive to the status quo.
I'll take my imagination for reality any day.
And yes, the status quo/mainstream/society isn't my biggest fan. For the most part, some people do though.
Anyways, lesson learned. And I get to listen to awesome music that isn't played on the radio. +1
EVGA FTW-3 MOBO X58EVGA GTX 580G.SKILL RIPJAW 12GBINTEL I7 950CORSAIR H70 CPU COOLERCORSAIR 1200W 80+GOLD
Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by AeonZen
er, I hate to say this but I suspect there is more to this story.
I've been playing these games since 2004 and, other than socializing with like minded people, I have never had any issues like that.
I mean, if we are to take this post on face value then "every person who makes a new character has received scorn and death threats".
Which is just not true.
I suspect the issues here have more to do with "what happened when you were socializing". Heck, the idea that you deleted the game and your character because you thought someone was talking about you should give you an idea that there might be a greater concern here.
Hehe, yes. I could have been over imagining things and there is more to the story. Alas, I can't really give the whole story though. I really shouldn't have brought it up in the first place, was trying to give an example. And this is the only time something really weird like that had happened. And I've been playing for awhile also.
I'm just really sensitive.
Anyways, everyone has free will do what you want. I'm not defending anyone anymore, lol.
Originally posted by Roin
Ninja Looters - The heavy emphasis on loot brought about this. Roll your own loot like in WOW LFR, Diablo 3, Marvel Heroes. Ninja-looting is not possible. Guild drama - The heavy emphasis on loot brought about this. As a result of Ninja looters. This, unfortunately, cannot be fixed ... but if you take ninja loot away, there is one less cause to have drama. Corpse Camping - Gear was too valuable to just leave on corpse. Where as in UO stuff could be easy or hard to replace depending on what it was. Partly fixed by no penalty on pvp death, and quick respawn but players can still camp corpse to annoy. Guilds dominating best loot spots - The heavy loot emphasis, and need to be geared to get better loot. Instances and LFD fixed this. Solo play - Ninja looters and Guild drama brought about this. If I kill it solo I don't have to worry about sharing loot. Solo is not a problem. Just another choice to enjoy the gameplay. Scammers - Both UO and EQ had these, but the lost was imho much more painful when it came down to EQ items. Still possible in some games .. but less likely with AH and other secure trade mechanism. Train makers - Nothing was more annoying then losing XP because someone either in your group or outside your group, screwed up. Spend hours getting that XP bar to move only to have it wiped away in mere moments. Totally fixed by having an aggro table. Alot of the problems I see in MMO's now make me think back to my days playing EQ. Then I think about the other MMO's I played like DAOC or even AC:Darktide and realize I never really saw those problem pop up there. Just in the games that were too "EQ" like. The genre has progressed a lot fixing many of these problems.
This is a big reason why I play Vanguard.
Remove all the other reasons why people don't like the game (legit ones), the community there is awesome. You don't have these issues of people doing speed runs and acting like asshats. Maybe a few will sneak in at the lower levels, but they usually don't last long. Reputations still exist, and consequences. Everyone is nice, and every group I've ever been in has been social, cooperative, and a lot of fun.
You don't see many games where a new player can ask for help in general chat, and have several random people go help, just because they wanted to help. I know I often, if I'm not currently in the middle of something, will just sit around answering questions in chat or actually going and helping people out if needed. It's nice. I'd hate to play a game where nobody cares.
Originally posted by BearKnight Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Sulaa People have not changed much. Nowadays you can just do shit and get away with it.
Yeh. Embrace the new freedom and have fun with it.
There's nothing fun about level-capping in a linear game when the best gear can be gotten by a couple people doing the same quest/instance/dungeon 30 times to get "[insert random dungeon currency here]" and then the only thing you have left to do is shit-talk in crappy arena games that mean nothing & earn you nothing except a win/loss score to shove in peoples faces in order to spout "L2P noob".
Am I the only one who doesn't care about a 100x100meter cube deathmatch gameplay in an MMO?
People must really enjoy things being handed to them.
Are the games they are calling MMORPG's these days not an obvious sign of that as it is?
Originally posted by MMORPGRIP Originally posted by BearKnight Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Sulaa People have not changed much. Nowadays you can just do shit and get away with it.
Given that there are 50M MMO players just in the US, "doing stuff and getting away with it" must be fun for lots of people.
WoW destroyed MMOs
Since 2007, its all shit and catered to whining brats.
I miss when a game would actually launch, you buy it, you pay the 10-15 month and whoa there are updates. This F2P, DLC etc nonsense is ridiculous and this whole thing now about paying to play Alphas and five different names for a beta is a joke. Finish the game, release it, and stop nickle and diming the player base.
Dont care if you disagree I don't know how if you've played MMO's since the late 90's and before you could even debate this. The quality and substance of this genre is gone right now.
This model of game creates the massive anti social attitude that is in every game now, its a race to the finish and fuck everyone else. And than you click a button and your doing endgame dungeons.
Playing : DayZ
Played : EVE, GW, SB, DF, AoC, WoW, WaR, L1, L2, Rift, AA, WS
Loved: DAoC, EVE, SB, old WoW, L2, GW2, EQ1-2
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Vunak23 Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Vunak23 I think the anti-social behavior can be attributed to the anti-social mechanics of MMO's today. Most MMO players are achievement focused (Want to get to endgame and get the best loots). When the path to get to that point is to solo up as fast as you can then people are not going to go out of their way to communicate with others and risk slowing that progress down. Cross-Realm LFG Instant Port to Dungeon Gather quests that don't share Mob XP splitting when grouped Those are in my opinion the main reasons MMO's have become an anti-social environment.
It is not the games. It is the people.
The only difference is that you have a CHOICE of not socializing today, compared to the past. Choices are always good.
And if the choice reflects a desire NOT to socialize, well, that is what people want .. give it to them.
All the features are you listed are good games feature. If people value progress over socialization .. what is the problem then? Shouldn't electronic entertainment products cater to the desire of their customers?
People want endgame as fast as possible. More often than not in games today it is much faster to solo your way to endgame then it is to group up and quest/grind together. People won't risk the slow down to group. Why should they? Why would you group with 4 or 5 other people only to gimp yourself in progression?
That is the reason the anti-social behavior has become rampant in todays games. It is a design flaw that preys on people's path of least resistance behavior, or path of least effort as its known.
No. It is not the design. The root cause, in fact you mentioned it .. is that people value fast progression over socialization.
No amount of design is going to change that. You can suppress that but that is what people prefer.
Right. But why is it designed so that solo play is the fastest way to progress? That is the design flaw. People should be rewarded for taking the time to create groups and socialize instead of punished for it.
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
Researchers today uncovered cave paintings in a tidal cave in southeastern Turkey. The painting depicts one warrior walking away from a larger group of warriors surrounding a water buffalo corpse, breaking his spear over his knee.
Scientists believe the painting to date from at least 500 BC, and Dr. Yohan Jones believes the painting to depict "The very first Pick-Up Group, before the first Loot roll."
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Stzza WoW destroyed MMOs Since 2007, its all shit and catered to whining brats. I miss when a game would actually launch, you buy it, you pay the 10-15 month and whoa there are updates. This F2P, DLC etc nonsense is ridiculous and this whole thing now about paying to play Alphas and five different names for a beta is a joke. Finish the game, release it, and stop nickle and diming the player base. Dont care if you disagree I don't know how if you've played MMO's since the late 90's and before you could even debate this. The quality and substance of this genre is gone right now. This model of game creates the massive anti social attitude that is in every game now, its a race to the finish and fuck everyone else. And than you click a button and your doing endgame dungeons.
+1 to you friend, +1 to you.
What reason do I have to care about any of you?
That should sum it up.
Originally posted by Adoni I don't know what caused it but I am in a big guild and it seems hard to get anyone even say Hi when there are 20+ online. Makes me kind of sad sometimes.
/2 WTS: Breath Mints, 20g. PST.
The first MMO you loved will always be the best. You will never get that feeling back stop trying.
Originally posted by Popori What reason do I have to care about any of you? That should sum it up.
I'm nice and like to party.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by MMORPGRIP Originally posted by BearKnight Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Sulaa People have not changed much. Nowadays you can just do shit and get away with it.
That's the problem. Most of these players never played MMORPG's prior to Blizzard's mass advertisement and mainstreaming of the genre.
Once that happened and every other suit saw the money they (Blizzard) were making...EVERYONE jumped on the band wagon. Hence, clone after unimaginative clone that throws every item familiar to these new players into their game. Instancing, stat boards, "end game", making the player the center of attention "the hero", heavy soloing, cut scenes, rewards every few steps, easy fast fast fast game play,
The players that kept the MMORPG genre going, so most of these new players could experience them...are abandoned in the name of extreme greed.
To address the "doing stuff and getting away with it". Cross realm servers, being able to pay to change servers, your character name and/or sex in some cases, and MMORPG's that allow the players to solo to cap, or even use mercs (AI companions to fight for them)...players don't have to rely on others...so yep...they get away with being jerks much more. No accountability, little to no community, no need for others = crappier games when it comes to MMORPG's. IMO of course.
And no...this isn't bitterness. This is the reality of today's so called MMORPG's.
My theme song.
I understand everything you have said Bear! I found a community from days past that are still respectful and helpful. Even though years have passed they are still the best community on the internet. These folks belong to the Flight Sim Genre. Although this is not very helpful for High Fantasy type games, or even other MMO's in general, it just shows that humans can still bond and care for each other. I also very very recently went back to Vanguard, which is not a newbie friendly MMO. And every single time I ask a question, or ask for help, it has been granted! There is another place to experience humanity at it's best! I hope this helps you find what you have lost my good man. Keep your head up!
I will not pretend to know the answer as to why but I will say my little 2 cents.
I have seen this become a very large subject, I myself and a few of my old gamer pals have at this point rented a ts3 server with 3-4 people that play games to chat and enjoy the company of others who like to play games. And as we play over the years our little group grows by one or two and we continue on. I have tried more mmos, co=ops, shooters, and other online games then I care to list attempting to find what I had in SWG, EQ1/2 and LOTRO when it 1st released.
I have said it for about 5 or more years now that the trend in "communities" has gone down hill and shows no signs of slowing. It may be true the gaming world has gotten a bit bigger, I'm pretty sure it has but to go so far as to say well gee wiz more players means more id10ts seems...well it seems stupid. I can't truly swallow that as a answer. I'm at a loss of how to really put it that doesn't come off harsh so I'll leave that to the readers.
Well that's my 2 pennies
P.S. I am looking to get back into Lotro, Planetside 2 and a few other games this summer so if anyone is looking for a chill group to play some games with hit me up.
I think those type of anti-social people have always been there. But now mmo's are very common and attract millions and millions of players, where as in the earlier days of Meridian 59, UO, EQ etc these games were very niche. I was still on 14.4k dialup then, I wasn't even able to connect from New Zealand to the USA for these strange things called" Online games" lol.
Niche games always seem to attract a closer knit community. And perhaps the newer game mechanics such as the "LFG" and "Xrealm" systems have certainly not helped in bringing people closer together as a community, where your actions don't even really matter because you will most likely never see that same person again. As long as games continue to cater for these " I want it now " generation of gamer's you will always see these horrid types of players. They don't need to be nice or polite, there is no consequence for their actions.
Most PUGS I join don't even utter as much as a Hello. The only time someone speaks is generally to yell at the healer lol. Luckily for me my time zone has me playing late into the small hours of the US. I find the nicer players are often out then and the PUG experience is often totally different and enjoyable.
I feel nostalgic for the communities of the past, but rest assured we ARE still there. Just diluted among the masses really. Perhaps we've been pushed deeper underground as we're generally not the type to sit and argue silly points over a general chat. Sad thing is I feel quite alienated for being nice in certain games these days. It's almost as if being nice and polite and decent is the abnormal thing to do.