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No level system , what can replace it ?

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  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

     What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

    They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

    I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

     

    There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

    We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

     

    What does the speed of progression of "beating" a MMO in a week have anything to do with whether or not there are hell levels?

    Do you really not understand the nearly limitless number of applications that could change a game from being too "easy" for people who play a lot?

    Or the multitude of variables that ACTUALLY cause these games to be progressed through so quickly?

     

    If you truly think not having hell levels is the only reason games are so easy to "beat" in a week, I think you fail to grasp literally ANYTHING about game design. I'd question if you even played games.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

     What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

    They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

    I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

     

    There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

    We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

     

    What does the speed of progression of "beating" a MMO in a week have anything to do with whether or not there are hell levels?

    Do you really not understand the nearly limitless number of applications that could change a game from being too "easy" for people who play a lot?

    Or the multitude of variables that ACTUALLY cause these games to be progressed through so quickly?

     

    If you truly think not having hell levels is the only reason games are so easy to "beat" in a week, I think you fail to grasp literally ANYTHING about game design. I'd question if you even played games.

     Easy, I beat Neverwinter on my Guardian Fighter. It took me /played 3 days 3 hours to level to 60 and obtain my entire T2 set of gear. When I progressed through the game I was leveling so fast that there was no need to even do side content. There wasn't even any grind in the game. I never once during my process of leveling through the game needed to equip gems into my gear because I out leveled my equipment so much.

     The same thing happens in every other MMO that I've played in the past 2-4 years. The only exception to this that I've noticed was Warhammer Online mainly because the true leveling curve within the game was RvR levels and it took a significant amount of time to level up.

     You will never see the "limitless" amounts of implementation to "slow" the curve in leveling because people don't want it. The "grind" is too much for the casual player ( such as yourself seeing as you don't want "hell levels").

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 West Toluca Lake, CAPosts: 4,474Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by mbd1968
    Just do skill based... hit things with your sword and you get better at using your sword, etc. Hit things with a sword while wearing heavy armor and blocking with your shield makes you better with a sword and shield and more agile in your heavy armor.

     But also add in a de-leveling system when fighting scrubs and mobs below your skill level.

  • AccountDeleted12341AccountDeleted12341 Houston, TXPosts: 351Member
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    You miss hell levels?  Really?

    I mean they are called "hell" levels for a reason.

    I find it best to block users like this. I don't think they grasp what a video game is.

    Perhaps they just communicate so drastically differently than most people, that we simply do not understand their thoughts or ideas.

    I mean, someone cannot possibly actually miss "hell levels". They are literally called "hell levels" because literally EVERYONE, with the exception of perhaps delusional psychotics, hated these levels.

     

    People would actually power level, progress with RL cash -> chinese PL farmer, cheat, AFK, or watch TV / surf internet while playing the game in a window.

     

     

    I actually remember one time, when me and my friend were playing City of Heroes. We were in a full group, and we were fully into the game, enjoying it because that's why we were playing it. One group member spoke about how he is "multi-tasking" watching a movie, doing a task, and playing the game at the same time. Instantly, every group member starting talking about what they were doing.

    None of them were actually playing the game, and I severely doubt that many were having fun. They were all doing multiple other tasks instead, while grinding. After I poked around a bit, they all admitted they weren't playing for fun, they were playing to grind. Needless to say, I was appalled and shocked, even with all my experience playing MMO's in the past. It wasn't just one or two, it was the entire group.

    This is when I really began to think about how many MMO gamers don't play the game because of the fun elements, they play for the satisfaction elements or even more common the grind of trying to get to a level where the game BECOMES fun.

     

     

    There is definitely a problem with games, when they are so easy that you can basically AFK grind through dungeons. There is definitely a problem with games, when they don't capture the player and immerse them into a world of wonder and adventure.

    However...Hell levels is the opposite of the solution. They would cause MORE of this type of behavior. More endless hours spent by most players trying to "get to the fun parts". Fortunately for most players, they know that it is a waste of their life to "work to have fun" when playing a game. There is quite a big reason I did not resub to many many MMO's after giving it another try, and having a blast with my friend. You had to macro or grind for a month before being viable to play the game. Who wants to work for a month just to be able to have fun? This is just silly.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    You miss hell levels?  Really?

    I mean they are called "hell" levels for a reason.

    I find it best to block users like this. I don't think they grasp what a video game is.

    I find it very interesting that you only find fun in a game is the end where the game has nothing else to do. That's fine for you but I do enjoy playing through the game and I love insanely high level caps. It gives me plenty of time to enjoy the equipment that I obtain through doing dungeons. I hope you love getting your epics in your endgame dungeon and doing absolutely nothing with them. Because that's what you get from the current state of the genre.

    Perhaps they just communicate so drastically differently than most people, that we simply do not understand their thoughts or ideas.

    I mean, someone cannot possibly actually miss "hell levels". They are literally called "hell levels" because literally EVERYONE, with the exception of perhaps delusional psychotics, hated these levels.

     

    People would actually power level, progress with RL cash -> chinese PL farmer, cheat, AFK, or watch TV / surf internet while playing the game in a window.

     

     

    I actually remember one time, when me and my friend were playing City of Heroes. We were in a full group, and we were fully into the game, enjoying it because that's why we were playing it. One group member spoke about how he is "multi-tasking" watching a movie, doing a task, and playing the game at the same time. Instantly, every group member starting talking about what they were doing.

    None of them were actually playing the game, and I severely doubt that many were having fun. They were all doing multiple other tasks instead, while grinding. After I poked around a bit, they all admitted they weren't playing for fun, they were playing to grind. Needless to say, I was appalled and shocked, even with all my experience playing MMO's in the past. It wasn't just one or two, it was the entire group.

    This is when I really began to think about how many MMO gamers don't play the game because of the fun elements, they play for the satisfaction elements or even more common the grind of trying to get to a level where the game BECOMES fun.

    The leveling grind in a game is fun to me. Doing dungeons on the side to help me level is even more fun. However, getting to endgame to do 5-10 different raids or dungeons that lead to no where aren't fun. Which is why I dislike end game because that's essentially the end of the game. 

     

     

    There is definitely a problem with games, when they are so easy that you can basically AFK grind through dungeons. There is definitely a problem with games, when they don't capture the player and immerse them into a world of wonder and adventure.

    However...Hell levels is the opposite of the solution. They would cause MORE of this type of behavior. More endless hours spent by most players trying to "get to the fun parts". Fortunately for most players, they know that it is a waste of their life to "work to have fun" when playing a game. There is quite a big reason I did not resub to many many MMO's after giving it another try, and having a blast with my friend. You had to macro or grind for a month before being viable to play the game. Who wants to work for a month just to be able to have fun? This is just silly.

    I find it quite hilarious that you're only thinking that the end game is the only "fun" part of the game. That's what I completely dislike. I don't want to hit the end game. Because there's never an end game that's able to hold my attention. I want a leveling progression that I can dedicate my time to enjoying the adventure. If you think otherwise that's your opinion.

     

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • KanethKaneth Posts: 1,924Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

     What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

    They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

    I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

     

    There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

    We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

     I also know that the MMO genre isn't niche anymore. Any kid and their parents play the game now and I most like won't see the  difficulty level in an MMO ever again.

    Don't mistake leveling speed with difficulty. I haven't ever played a mmo where leveling was hard, but I have played many mmos where leveling was made artificially tedious. If content is challenging, that's great, but the content needs to be challenging intelligently. Such as, mobs who use CC and tactics to try to kill the player. However, if content is going to be "challenging" because you need 80 million xps to level and earn it at a rate of 200xps, and you and the mobs are playing whack-a-mole (which is what most "challenging" content has been in mmos), that's poor design.

    More on topic:

    Leveling systems exist because many gamers are goal oriented. Without something to readily measure their progress they will most likely become bored. Additionally, having some form of "end game" is important to many mmo gamers, just look at how much discussion exists pertaining to end game content. You don't need levels to have end game content, but how will you know when you reach end game in a leveless system? Simply put, the level system is the easiest way to design and gate content. Anyone who has ever been in any type of design class can tell you that the KISS method (keep it simple stupid) is pounded into you, because simple is often the best way to go. You can add layers to a simple structure after the fact.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kaneth
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    Originally posted by Disatisfied9
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

     What I truly miss from many MMO's that developers are completely ignoring today are "Hell levels" and attunements in character progression. I'd love to see players actually have to work at getting their characters progressed further into the game. What ever happened to these things?

    They died, along with all the other stupid features of MMO's.

    I'd prefer it if the only game with "hell levels" are those which are indie funded for an extremely niche audience. Let hell level supporters have their game, but not to ruin everyone else's.

     

    There are however other designs that could encourage what you desire (a sense of achievement, elimination of EZ mode or increase of difficulty) without resorting to archaic features that make the majority of players lose out on FUN.

    We all know how much "fun" a game is when you beat a new MMO in a week. 

     I also know that the MMO genre isn't niche anymore. Any kid and their parents play the game now and I most like won't see the  difficulty level in an MMO ever again.

    Don't mistake leveling speed with difficulty. I haven't ever played a mmo where leveling was hard, but I have played many mmos where leveling was made artificially tedious. If content is challenging, that's great, but the content needs to be challenging intelligently. Such as, mobs who use CC and tactics to try to kill the player. However, if content is going to be "challenging" because you need 80 million xps to level and earn it at a rate of 200xps, and you and the mobs are playing whack-a-mole (which is what most "challenging" content has been in mmos), that's poor design.

    More on topic:

    Leveling systems exist because many gamers are goal oriented. Without something to readily measure their progress they will most likely become bored. Additionally, having some form of "end game" is important to many mmo gamers, just look at how much discussion exists pertaining to end game content. You don't need levels to have end game content, but how will you know when you reach end game in a leveless system? Simply put, the level system is the easiest way to design and gate content. Anyone who has ever been in any type of design class can tell you that the KISS method (keep it simple stupid) is pounded into you, because simple is often the best way to go. You can add layers to a simple structure after the fact.

     If you slow the progression of leveling for the players they're able to at least enjoy the content you've created within the game. I believe none of you are even thinking of what I enjoy about the "hell levels". I can obtain gear that I get during those points in time and enjoy them for a substantial amount of time after that. However, with the new MMO's you don't even get to enjoy the equipment in dungeons at all because they're replaced so rapidly.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,316Member Uncommon

    He likes grinding thats fine, it explains why he likes hell levels.

    I would then submit that because you like it, it's not monotonous or boring thus not a grind.  Different argument though.

    No other issues here, he likes that part of the game.

    Personally I'm at odds about them.  I would like to say that I don't care how long it takes to level, which is largely true (never been to end game in any game anyway, never even finished a video game actually) however I really did notice and hated those hell levels, perhaps because it felt too monotonous and repetitious for me. 

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    He likes grinding thats fine, it explains why he likes hell levels.

    I would then submit that because you like it, it's not monotonous or boring thus not a grind.  Different argument though.

    No other issues here, he likes that part of the game.

    Personally I'm at odds about them.  I would like to say that I don't care how long it takes to level, which is largely true (never been to end game in any game anyway, never even finished a video game actually) however I really did notice and hated those hell levels, perhaps because it felt too monotonous and repetitious for me. 

     Yeah, I understand completely that a grind based game isn't for everyone. Which is why I tend to play more eastern style games because they're more into the long term progression than the short end game experience that the western audience enjoys.

    image

    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    I feel that all of you are looking at this the wrong way, which is why you are having a hard time coming up with a replacement. My MMO idea also doesn't have levels, yet it has a different way of handling progression that requires the new MMO gamer's mindset theory to be active.

    image

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    If I want to play a game without leveling etc...I don't play anything with the term RPG in it.Levels and stastics are part of what defined the  CRPG genre and hence the MMORPG genre.

    If I want don't want to play a game in first person that has guns in it.I don't play FPS games I don't go to a FPS forum and demand that the genre change.

    Now there is plenty of place for MMOs that are not RPGs but that not the same as trying to change MMORPGs.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Drakynn

    If I want to play a game without leveling etc...I don't play anything with the term RPG in it.Levels and stastics are part of what defined the  CRPG genre and hence the MMORPG genre.

    If I want don't want to play a game in first person that has guns in it.I don't play FPS games I don't go to a FPS forum and demand that the genre change.

    Now there is plenty of place for MMOs that are not RPGs but that not the same as trying to change MMORPGs.

    Levels don't define RPG, just like guns don't define FPS. It's just mostly done with those features in it. But they don't define the genre.

    image

  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    What about the flaming pile of crap system? I like that one.
  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member
    I prefer levels, because for me when I reach the end of progression, the game ends. But there are ways to make a game without level, the progression must be through items and skills.
  • MagiknightMagiknight McKinleyville, CAPosts: 782Member
    Originally posted by Prenho
    I prefer levels, because for me when I reach the end of progression, the game ends. But there are ways to make a game without level, the progression must be through items and skills.

    A real MMO should never end :( Like you said, most do when you reach max level. Or at least there is only raiding and PVP to do at endgame.

  • PrenhoPrenho AracajuPosts: 298Member
    Originally posted by Magiknight
    Originally posted by Prenho
    I prefer levels, because for me when I reach the end of progression, the game ends. But there are ways to make a game without level, the progression must be through items and skills.

    A real MMO should never end :( Like you said, most do when you reach max level. Or at least there is only raiding and PVP to do at endgame.

    Yes, I like to be in constant progression-farming in MMO, because of this I can't stay more than 1 month in most MMOs nowadays.

    WoW, GW2, and others are good examples, 1 month playing and the game had no meaning for me anymore.

  • BahamutKaiserBahamutKaiser Hyattsville, MDPosts: 306Member

    To me, the way you develop your character can be a compelling part of gameplay, beside whether or not to use standardized levels or separately developed stats, character development can consist of combat (hopefully renewably challenging combat), as well as all sorts of activities or endeavors such as exercise, mystical education, sparring, combat observation, apprenticing, so on so forth, not to mention the gear acquisition and creation elements.

    Various activities which are spelled out in different methods can be used to grow and achieve which add diversity, but hopefully are done in interesting and amusing ways. Fitting in story, characters, and minigames which are fun to play on their own, and combining them can allow an MMO to be the every game you'd expect from what you intend to spend obnoxious amounts of time on.

    Now if the stats are developed separately, or in various couplings, than more activities can be devised to develop each, or various couplings. Given the fact that many MMOs fail to even have compelling combat, adding this measure of diversity and depth is a great way to improve the experience. Many console RPGs with better gameplay expected to last an insignificant fraction of the time spent in comparison to an MMORPG have litters of Minigames just to clear and area, to get an item, or make some money, yet games which are expected to entertain you THOUSANDS of times longer don't even have minigames as decent as a basic browser based puzzle...

    If theirs one thing my first MMO engrained in me, and the reason why I haven't committed to an MMO since, is that if I'm going to put that kind of time into a game, it's gonna be to enjoy myself, it's going to be incredibly fun for hours on end, the every day typical activity is going to be fun! I'm past that phase where achieving and growing characters is entertaining, I've done thousands of hours.... hundreds of thousands of hours in RPG character development, and I'm done, I don't wanna do it just for the sake of doing it, not anymore, not in another game. I expect my RPGs to be fun to actually play now, I have nothing against those who haven't moved on from that amusement, but it's not good enough for me anymore, I need strategy, and tactics, or action or puzzles, I need gameplay, tacking on character development is fine so long as it's done it good taste, but plain old milling mundane gameplay endlessly just to develop my character, it's no good anymore.

    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
    That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.

  • DrunkWolfDrunkWolf Posts: 1,178Member Uncommon

    Im really surprised nobody has copied Asherons Call leveling system. its pretty simple and works really well.

    as you kill mobs or turn in quest  you get whats called unassigned XP, you can save up this XP as long as you want and when ever you want you use it to raise up any skill you have. for example

    I kill a Shadow and gain 15k xp towards my level and also gain 15k unassigned XP,  My sword skill cost 100 XP to raise it one point, so i spend some of my unassigned XP and raise it a point. now it cost 175 XP to raise it again and so on. each skill and attribute is raised like this in the game.

    plus raising attributes also raises skills, for example. every 2 points i raise in strength or coordination will raise my sword skill a point, or every 2 points into quick/coord will raise melee D and so on.

    Levels are still good because every 5 levels or so you get a skill point to train other skills if you want. but levels arnt everything in the game.

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf

    Im really surprised nobody has copied Asherons Call leveling system. its pretty simple and works really well.

    as you kill mobs or turn in quest  you get whats called unassigned XP, you can save up this XP as long as you want and when ever you want you use it to raise up any skill you have. for example

    I kill a Shadow and gain 15k xp towards my level and also gain 15k unassigned XP,  My sword skill cost 100 XP to raise it one point, so i spend some of my unassigned XP and raise it a point. now it cost 175 XP to raise it again and so on. each skill and attribute is raised like this in the game.

    plus raising attributes also raises skills, for example. every 2 points i raise in strength or coordination will raise my sword skill a point, or every 2 points into quick/coord will raise melee D and so on.

    Levels are still good because every 5 levels or so you get a skill point to train other skills if you want. but levels arnt everything in the game.

    because thats more "Obvious" Grind.

    Better the grind is hidden now days the better the game is in the public eye.

    image

  • GroovyFlowerGroovyFlower RdamPosts: 1,245Member

    DayZ is example of how mmo could be no stats lvls xp armor or any enhancement just what you find you use to survive no increase health armor or any defense just weapons and survival stuff like drinks and food medicine to survive.

    Ultimate survival game if some just enter game with nothing and find a handgun and he see a guy playing for days full packed with all uber loot he can kill him with one shot or several good aimed axe blows.

    World also feels mmo hope dean rocket hall delivers and servers can handle 200 players im all for DayZ standalone.

    Pure survival simulator and you can destroy and build alot pure sandbox.

  • MikeJezZMikeJezZ HillerødPosts: 1,197Member
    Eve Online's system is pretty nice.

    Playing ATM: Elder Scrolls Online, Diablo 3
    MMO's shelted: Check my mmorpg profile
    KICKSTARTED: Camelot Unchained. (250 USD)

  • IAmMMOIAmMMO LondonPosts: 1,332Member Uncommon

     What can replace it? Building actual virtual worlds where the game becomes about the community creating a virtual society within.  The progression should be the person getting better at the game with time and not the game making you better with time. Starting out should  be about the lack of money, weapons, resources, armor  and reputation. Instead of Level 1 go level up to earn your abilities and money etc. You should start out with access to all abilities in the game for a character you make. How you kit out determines what abilities you can use. Realtime combat is the way forward for making it about the player getting better at the game with time, and not  about game making the player better with time.

     

      Crafting should be about the money, equipment and resources, not crafting for hours to reach a level to make a better item. The better the item you're trying to make the more money and bits of different resources you'll need which will come from dangerous areas in the world.  Dynamic mobs and seamless worlds area must to fit this into.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon

    Pen and paper games have had many solutions for this in the past and I see no reason why they shouldn't work in MMOs as well. Here are a few:

    Shadowrun: Karma. When you complete stuff you get karma which you use to buy skill increases and other stuff. Simple and works, a lot more flexible than levels.

    Basic roleplaying/Runequest: Skill based. When you use a skill it will increase. In some versions all skills you used for a day/session have a chanse to increase depending on high they are at the time, in others your skills get XP every time you crit and raising increases with how high the skill is. Simple and similar systems have actually been used in MMOs before. Note that hitpoints dont increase in RQ.

    Vampire/World of darkness: Experience points. You get XP for time played and buy stuff for those points, sometimes you get bonuspoints as well. Simple.

    Warhammer: Class progression. In WHFRPG you start as a pathetic class, like ratcatcher and as you gain XP you slowly fill it out and can change to cooler classes as you go. You can have unlimited number of classes but there is a limit to how high you attributes can go.

    These are all basic mechanics that have worked in P&P games for many years. All of them are more flexible than levels and you might need to put on a "Reccomended" button to not confuse noobs. Respeccing should be pretty expensive in some of the systems though.

  • Loke666Loke666 MalmöPosts: 17,962Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Prenho
    I prefer levels, because for me when I reach the end of progression, the game ends. But there are ways to make a game without level, the progression must be through items and skills.

    There is also attributes, feats, hitpoints and player skill... And probably a few more things.

    Levels is just a fast and simple way to handle progression but it is hardly the best, all characters of the same class and level tends to be very similar with levels.

     

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