Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I hope to hear and see good things on the EqNext reveal, but I also am tempering my excitement for it. I would love to see roles being more prominent again, and some of the original EQ style of play, without instances come back. I can't stand all this over instancing that makes you feel like you are playing a lobby mmo.
For CC and pullers to make a comeback, they would have to eliminate the possibility to solo level except on classes designed to do so. Otherwise CC becomes either too powerful or not needed.
Depends on how you view it really. What is taunting and aggro control if not CC? And both tank and healer fit into a broader category of support, so there's really only 2 roles DPS and support, or offense and defense.
I'm not gonna repeat the solution today, we can talk about it all day, its up to developers and gamers to realize or overlook it.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
Originally posted by Alders For CC and pullers to make a comeback, they would have to eliminate the possibility to solo level except on classes designed to do so. Otherwise CC becomes either too powerful or not needed.
You can say it's too powerful in come DPS class designs. Or by stat based gear...etc. You can be fearful of anything but you shouldn't allow that to be the pat answer. You know. OMG it COULD BE TOO POWERFUL SO DON"T DO IT. BTW DID I MENTION I HAD CC.
Games are too simplistic or becoming that way. You see that with all the DPS epeening. Having CC is another option to combat. I understand some people want just DPS. I don't.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Depends on the combat... CC spam in PvP gets old fast, but it does make sense in PvE sometimes. It gets hard to balance. Personally, I'd rather just have new and interesting mechanics than trying to resurrect ones that just cause balance headaches.
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
Look at EvE Online where CC works perfectly fine. On the one hand not everyone can bring CC to the field, but only specialized ships can do this effectively. On the other hand there's counters to every CC, which basically every ship can fit.
The same would be possible in a MMO like WoW, when you put the CC abilities into a seperate talent-tree into the top of the tree, and have the DPS of this tree drastically reduced on the same time. This way you would have a CC-role, that can't really do much more than that. However, CC should never disable a target to a 100%, e.g. the stun or the root needs to go. Slowing is a fine example for a good working CC for example, or debuffing armor, range or whatever. And ofc, there needs to be counterspells, to buff yourself against CC or to remove them once applied.
Most developers are pretty much clueless to come up with a working CC-system however, and aslong as it's not balanced like in EvE, aslong CC isn't really any good in a game, but only frustrating.
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser Depends on how you view it really. What is taunting and aggro control if not CC?
That's actually a really good point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Plus there are many who hate CC when it happens to them.
That's a big reason why it disappeared. Theonly players that like Mezz/Stun/Root are the ones that aren't on the receiving end. Creating it as a PvE only skill would just force the devs to deal with constant pestering to add it to PvP (the place where people hated it most) so it makes more sense in most cases to leave it out and not deal with the hassle.
I would like to see devs bring CC back, but have it much like UO and EVE, where they can be reasonably countered by a prepared player. Without a counter, it's simply an annoyance to most players.
What if.......
non-cc class roles would earn skill points through pvp which could be placed in 'counter-cc' abilities?
The more you pvp, the more resilient to cc you can become. You could focus on resists or powers which 'un-cc' you or reduce effectiveness (i.e. you are snared, but barely and as you gain skill you may be able to resist entirely.
However, to keep the cc viable at the top end, (everyone is maxed out their anti-cc), the cc classes also gain skills through pvp.
With the end result that a maxed cc role could dominate those not maxed to varying degrees, but when matched against a role who is maxed out anti-cc, the battle boils down to the actual skill of the player. Meaning knowing your timing and the right cc or anti-cc power to use at the exact right time.
-or-
we could say it is just an idea viable in a pve game
Originally posted by BahamutKaiser Depends on how you view it really. What is taunting and aggro control if not CC? And both tank and healer fit into a broader category of support, so there's really only 2 roles DPS and support, or offense and defense.
I'm not gonna repeat the solution today, we can talk about it all day, its up to developers and gamers to realize or overlook it.
Look at EvE Online where CC works perfectly fine. On the one hand not everyone can bring CC to the field, but only specialized ships can do this effectively. On the other hand there's counters to every CC, which basically every ship can fit.
The same would be possible in a MMO like WoW, when you put the CC abilities into a seperate talent-tree into the top of the tree, and have the DPS of this tree drastically reduced on the same time. This way you would have a CC-role, that can't really do much more than that. However, CC should never disable a target to a 100%, e.g. the stun or the root needs to go. Slowing is a fine example for a good working CC for example, or debuffing armor, range or whatever. And ofc, there needs to be counterspells, to buff yourself against CC or to remove them once applied.
Most developers are pretty much clueless to come up with a working CC-system however, and aslong as it's not balanced like in EvE, aslong CC isn't really any good in a game, but only frustrating.
So CC is fine as long as you have a way to counter it and not really be affected by it all except enough so you can say you support CC.
So can I get a button to simply push so I don't take damage for a while?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Look at EvE Online where CC works perfectly fine. On the one hand not everyone can bring CC to the field, but only specialized ships can do this effectively. On the other hand there's counters to every CC, which basically every ship can fit.
The same would be possible in a MMO like WoW, when you put the CC abilities into a seperate talent-tree into the top of the tree, and have the DPS of this tree drastically reduced on the same time. This way you would have a CC-role, that can't really do much more than that. However, CC should never disable a target to a 100%, e.g. the stun or the root needs to go. Slowing is a fine example for a good working CC for example, or debuffing armor, range or whatever. And ofc, there needs to be counterspells, to buff yourself against CC or to remove them once applied.
Most developers are pretty much clueless to come up with a working CC-system however, and aslong as it's not balanced like in EvE, aslong CC isn't really any good in a game, but only frustrating.
So CC is fine as long as you have a way to counter it and not really be affected by it all except enough so you can say you support CC.
So can I get a button to simply push so I don't take damage for a while?
First...that button is called "Divine Barrier" - or a thousand different other powers/spells across multiple classes throughout time.
Second, read my post above as a way to prevent the consequences you fear.
Look at EvE Online where CC works perfectly fine. On the one hand not everyone can bring CC to the field, but only specialized ships can do this effectively. On the other hand there's counters to every CC, which basically every ship can fit.
The same would be possible in a MMO like WoW, when you put the CC abilities into a seperate talent-tree into the top of the tree, and have the DPS of this tree drastically reduced on the same time. This way you would have a CC-role, that can't really do much more than that. However, CC should never disable a target to a 100%, e.g. the stun or the root needs to go. Slowing is a fine example for a good working CC for example, or debuffing armor, range or whatever. And ofc, there needs to be counterspells, to buff yourself against CC or to remove them once applied.
Most developers are pretty much clueless to come up with a working CC-system however, and aslong as it's not balanced like in EvE, aslong CC isn't really any good in a game, but only frustrating.
So CC is fine as long as you have a way to counter it and not really be affected by it all except enough so you can say you support CC.
So can I get a button to simply push so I don't take damage for a while?
No one is asking to be immune to it, just to have a counter available for it. UO and EVE have different mechanics like that and the counter in both is most certainly not an invuln or immunity button. In UO, a player can train skills and raise certain stats to minimize the length of time they are paralyzed or how long a spell affects them. In EVE, a player can train skills, equip modules, and use various tactics to reduce the chance of being jammed or tackled. In neither game is CC negated or rendered useless.
It's only in looking now for examples of countermeasures in other forms of combat that I realize how truly sterile and shallow MMO combat has become. Damage types no longer mean anything, weapon variance no longer exists and everyone has pretty much the same weapon/spell range, run speed and z-axis. Nothing fails, fizzles, breaks or is disrupted.
Pewp.
I just harshed all over my own mellow.
Anyway, I feel it's always good to have some system available to let a player counter the actions another player can take on them, especially if a choice has to be made between having the effect/counter and some other important skill or ability. To use the previously mentioned games:
In UO a player is sacrificing some of their finite points they could put into other skills when they raise Resist and Inscription.
In EVE, a player is sacrificing module slots that could be used for other tactics when they equip Stabilizers and Afterburners.
One can have available counters without rendering the feature/skill/ability pointless.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
PVPers are a major source of the problem of removing CC.
There should be different skills for pve and pvp. When they nerf a skill for pvp it won't affect the pve skills.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Guildwars 1 did this with a lot of their spells, and it worked amazingly well.
The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)
-The MMO Forum Community
I hope to hear and see good things on the EqNext reveal, but I also am tempering my excitement for it. I would love to see roles being more prominent again, and some of the original EQ style of play, without instances come back. I can't stand all this over instancing that makes you feel like you are playing a lobby mmo.
I'm not gonna repeat the solution today, we can talk about it all day, its up to developers and gamers to realize or overlook it.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, if they get angry, they'll be a mile away... and barefoot.
You can say it's too powerful in come DPS class designs. Or by stat based gear...etc. You can be fearful of anything but you shouldn't allow that to be the pat answer. You know. OMG it COULD BE TOO POWERFUL SO DON"T DO IT. BTW DID I MENTION I HAD CC.
Games are too simplistic or becoming that way. You see that with all the DPS epeening. Having CC is another option to combat. I understand some people want just DPS. I don't.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.
CC is fine aslong as it can be countered.
Look at EvE Online where CC works perfectly fine. On the one hand not everyone can bring CC to the field, but only specialized ships can do this effectively. On the other hand there's counters to every CC, which basically every ship can fit.
The same would be possible in a MMO like WoW, when you put the CC abilities into a seperate talent-tree into the top of the tree, and have the DPS of this tree drastically reduced on the same time. This way you would have a CC-role, that can't really do much more than that.
However, CC should never disable a target to a 100%, e.g. the stun or the root needs to go. Slowing is a fine example for a good working CC for example, or debuffing armor, range or whatever. And ofc, there needs to be counterspells, to buff yourself against CC or to remove them once applied.
Most developers are pretty much clueless to come up with a working CC-system however, and aslong as it's not balanced like in EvE, aslong CC isn't really any good in a game, but only frustrating.
That's actually a really good point.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What if.......
non-cc class roles would earn skill points through pvp which could be placed in 'counter-cc' abilities?
The more you pvp, the more resilient to cc you can become. You could focus on resists or powers which 'un-cc' you or reduce effectiveness (i.e. you are snared, but barely and as you gain skill you may be able to resist entirely.
However, to keep the cc viable at the top end, (everyone is maxed out their anti-cc), the cc classes also gain skills through pvp.
With the end result that a maxed cc role could dominate those not maxed to varying degrees, but when matched against a role who is maxed out anti-cc, the battle boils down to the actual skill of the player. Meaning knowing your timing and the right cc or anti-cc power to use at the exact right time.
-or-
we could say it is just an idea viable in a pve game
This is like a religious awakening for me.
There is no trinity - only offense and defense.
Brilliant.
+2
So CC is fine as long as you have a way to counter it and not really be affected by it all except enough so you can say you support CC.
So can I get a button to simply push so I don't take damage for a while?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
First...that button is called "Divine Barrier" - or a thousand different other powers/spells across multiple classes throughout time.
Second, read my post above as a way to prevent the consequences you fear.
No one is asking to be immune to it, just to have a counter available for it. UO and EVE have different mechanics like that and the counter in both is most certainly not an invuln or immunity button. In UO, a player can train skills and raise certain stats to minimize the length of time they are paralyzed or how long a spell affects them. In EVE, a player can train skills, equip modules, and use various tactics to reduce the chance of being jammed or tackled. In neither game is CC negated or rendered useless.
It's only in looking now for examples of countermeasures in other forms of combat that I realize how truly sterile and shallow MMO combat has become. Damage types no longer mean anything, weapon variance no longer exists and everyone has pretty much the same weapon/spell range, run speed and z-axis. Nothing fails, fizzles, breaks or is disrupted.
Pewp.
I just harshed all over my own mellow.
Anyway, I feel it's always good to have some system available to let a player counter the actions another player can take on them, especially if a choice has to be made between having the effect/counter and some other important skill or ability. To use the previously mentioned games:
In UO a player is sacrificing some of their finite points they could put into other skills when they raise Resist and Inscription.
In EVE, a player is sacrificing module slots that could be used for other tactics when they equip Stabilizers and Afterburners.
One can have available counters without rendering the feature/skill/ability pointless.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre