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F2P trend continues .. Rift going F2P & WOW cited F2P as reason for decline

nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

So everyone knows Rift is going F2P? I will save some time and not post the link for that.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/05/14/sad-pandas-more-sub-losses-expected-in-wow/

"The loss of players is coming primarily from the East, and Activision-Blizzard points to the rise of free-to-play games as the culprit. Chief Executive Bobby Kotick stated to investors, "It's important to note that the nature of online games has changed, and with the environment becoming far more competitive.""

 

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Comments

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed lalal land, DCPosts: 6,255Member Uncommon
    I am just hearing about the Rift F2P from this thread. Have link?

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  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member

    I just learned about it.  MMORPG.com main page have an article about it. 

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/431/feature/7411/Rift-Ready-to-Rock-the-F2P-Space.html

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member

    trends come and go

     

    f2p will be cordorouy cardigans with leather elbow patches in 5 years time

     

  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member

    also isn't it  Age of Wushu and Archeage in particular that have "stolen" all these eastern subs.

    might be more to do with they are new and feel fresh rather than just a reworking of the same bloody game weve had for the past 9 years.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    trends come and go

     

    f2p will be cordorouy cardigans with leather elbow patches in 5 years time

     

    Unless money becomes a commodity that gets proactively tossed around without care and becomes something we all have and easily depart, F2P is not likely to go away. How it functions might change, but its very unlikely its a model that will disapear so long as money has so much value in our world. 

     

    Take it like this. You see a good pie next to an award winning pie. Obviously you would take the award winning one right? Now you see the Pie marked as being free while the award winning one is marked for a price. Which would you pick? Now if you said the Delicious one, are you saying you wouldn't take the pie anyways to try just cause it is free to have anyways?

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member
    Thank God!!!I was just saying to myself how we needed another thread on this subject!!!
  • ShakyMoShakyMo BradfordPosts: 7,207Member
    Yeah but the free pie is raw and you have to pay through the nose to cook it.
  • CecropiaCecropia Posts: 3,472Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Yeah but the free pie is raw and you have to pay through the nose to cook it.

    LOL, well put.

    Regarding WOW: don`t they think that the subs are slowly going down because the game has been around since 2004. It had an incredible run and will most likely be in a healthy state for years to come, but other than EVE, these games simply do not just keep growing over the long haul.

    It`s heyday is over, time has caught up to WOW like it catches up to everything.

    "Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn belleville, ILPosts: 1,702Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Purutzil
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    trends come and go

     

    f2p will be cordorouy cardigans with leather elbow patches in 5 years time

     

    Unless money becomes a commodity that gets proactively tossed around without care and becomes something we all have and easily depart, F2P is not likely to go away. How it functions might change, but its very unlikely its a model that will disapear so long as money has so much value in our world. 

     

    Take it like this. You see a good pie next to an award winning pie. Obviously you would take the award winning one right? Now you see the Pie marked as being free while the award winning one is marked for a price. Which would you pick? Now if you said the Delicious one, are you saying you wouldn't take the pie anyways to try just cause it is free to have anyways?

    You might try the free pie, but realize that the more expensive pie is much better.  So the next time, you may want to spend a bit more for the quality of the expensive pie.  The analogy only goes so far, but I think my point is coming through.  I hope.  I do love some good pie though.

    Concentrate on enjoying yourself, and not on why I shouldn't enjoy myself.

  • flizzerflizzer Manchester, NHPosts: 1,550Member Uncommon
    I dont see f2p going away soon at all. I expect this is the immediate future.  Sub games are going to be fewer and fewer.  As one who supports free to play, I love this idea. 
  • TheodwulfTheodwulf Brockton, MAPosts: 231Member Uncommon
    nothing in the world is "FREE"... servers and the people who run them and those that develop content and the electricity to empower them all,  cost money..someone is paying  someone for these services.. you, who pays nothing,  ARE the product.  Does F2P scare you yet?
  • GorweGorwe ZagrebPosts: 2,472Member Uncommon
    And I predict that all games will be b2p/f2p within next three years(cloning with 31.12.2016.). Why?

    All the reasons for p2p are relics of history. Net traffic used to be expensive. Look at it now. You can get sattelite uplink/downlink for not so much money(this is the fastest net can go). Back in the days, ISDN used to be expensive as hell, let alone sattelite uplink. Storage is expensive? Nope. Just take a quick look at rapidshare/megaupload/... for reference on prices of net storage. Servers? Nope-optimised and way more cheap than before. Dev team-ok this is the same. A constant if you will. And that's why I think that b2p would be awesome. Covers dev team? Check!
    Covers future updates? Check!
    Covers maintanences? Check!

    So let me ask you: What more do you need?
  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Gorwe
    And I predict that all games will be b2p/f2p within next three years(cloning with 31.12.2016.). Why?All the reasons for p2p are relics of history. Net traffic used to be expensive. Look at it now. You can get sattelite uplink/downlink for not so much money(this is the fastest net can go). Back in the days, ISDN used to be expensive as hell, let alone sattelite uplink. Storage is expensive? Nope. Just take a quick look at rapidshare/megaupload/... for reference on prices of net storage. Servers? Nope-optimised and way more cheap than before. Dev team-ok this is the same. A constant if you will. And that's why I think that b2p would be awesome. Covers dev team? Check!Covers future updates? Check!Covers maintanences? Check!So let me ask you: What more do you need?

    Your thinking in CONSUMER terms.

    The amount of equipment for some of these data centres is mindblowing.


    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by ShakyMo

    also isn't it  Age of Wushu and Archeage in particular that have "stolen" all these eastern subs.

    might be more to do with they are new and feel fresh rather than just a reworking of the same bloody game weve had for the past 9 years.

    that require asians to play rift, or swtor etc.  I dont' think many people even play them.

     

  • GorweGorwe ZagrebPosts: 2,472Member Uncommon
    Whatever. Then make it b2p with a Cash shop.

    Satisfied?
  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Gorwe
    And I predict that all games will be b2p/f2p within next three years(cloning with 31.12.2016.). Why?All the reasons for p2p are relics of history. Net traffic used to be expensive. Look at it now. You can get sattelite uplink/downlink for not so much money(this is the fastest net can go). Back in the days, ISDN used to be expensive as hell, let alone sattelite uplink. Storage is expensive? Nope. Just take a quick look at rapidshare/megaupload/... for reference on prices of net storage. Servers? Nope-optimised and way more cheap than before. Dev team-ok this is the same. A constant if you will. And that's why I think that b2p would be awesome. Covers dev team? Check!Covers future updates? Check!Covers maintanences? Check!So let me ask you: What more do you need?

     

    Your thinking in CONSUMER terms.

    The amount of equipment for some of these data centres is mindblowing.

     

    Yea Gorwe is thinking as a Consumer or consumer parts.  I an a Windows System Engineer and a MS DBA and I can tell you that there are some frames we have in our Data Center that are Million Dollar Frames.  We also pay a yearly cost associated with maintenance and support on them.  That is not cheap.  Hell Licensing for SQL Server 2012 is going to be about the same price as Oracle because Microsoft switched to PER CORE licensing.  Minimum of 4 cores can be bought  and if I remember correctly I was getting $5K pricing for 4 cores.  Note the pricing model between your company and Microsoft will be different based on your agreements with them.

    P2P is only having a problem because games are coping an pasting WoW designs and are not worth $15 a month.  Add to that there are what 48+ MMOs so its a competition of crap vs crap so who is going to spend their money when nothing is worth it right now?   If we continue down this path what will happen is the MMO industry will shrink, fewer publishers will be willing to take a risk there for fewer MMOS will be out again.  That will bring back the P2P system because all of these people that are no MMO players will be gone thank god.  

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  • jpnzjpnz SydneyPosts: 3,529Member
    B2p with cash shop like GW2 is not a sure fire thing. Ncsoft noted that gw2 income fell through the floor recently. Gw2 is by all accounts a successful game that made a lot of money but the longevity of its income wasn't there.
    I think F2p with CS is better at the long game as it constantly gets new players.

    Gdemami -
    Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    B2p with cash shop like GW2 is not a sure fire thing. Ncsoft noted that gw2 income fell through the floor recently. Gw2 is by all accounts a successful game that made a lot of money but the longevity of its income wasn't there.
    I think F2p with CS is better at the long game as it constantly gets new players.

    Not surprised because giving something away for nothing is not going to make a business any money.  When you do Free to play like Neverwinter you drive people away.  I will not pay for ID scrolls or any of that crap.  They should have just had a choice between F2P with Cash shop or a Subscription everything open.  Then have the Subscription $12 a month.  I still do not how a gainfully employed person cannot afford $15 a month.  Hell I could do it when I was living alone on $21K a year. 

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  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by danwest58
     

    P2P is only having a problem because games are coping an pasting WoW designs and are not worth $15 a month.  Add to that there are what 48+ MMOs so its a competition of crap vs crap so who is going to spend their money when nothing is worth it right now?   If we continue down this path what will happen is the MMO industry will shrink, fewer publishers will be willing to take a risk there for fewer MMOS will be out again.  That will bring back the P2P system because all of these people that are no MMO players will be gone thank god.  

    I don't disagree, but I don't think it is that simple.

    If a company concluded that they could net more profit from f2p as opposed to a sub, then they will go that route no matter the design. 

    If they can determine players will pay 15 dollars a month regularly under a sub plan, but those same players will average greater than 15 dollars a month on a f2p model, guess what they would choose, wow-clone or not? 

    Look at a 5 month comparison:

    15 + 15 + 15 + 15 + 15 = 75$

    0 + 15 (I need another char slot) + 5 + 20 (man i need that mount)  + 50 (xmas time! thx for the gift certificates)  = 90$

    Voila! F2P model accepted, wow clone or not.

  • NitthNitth AustraliaPosts: 3,684Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by danwest58  

    P2P is only having a problem because games are coping an pasting WoW designs and are not worth $15 a month.  Add to that there are what 48+ MMOs so its a competition of crap vs crap so who is going to spend their money when nothing is worth it right now?   If we continue down this path what will happen is the MMO industry will shrink, fewer publishers will be willing to take a risk there for fewer MMOS will be out again.  That will bring back the P2P system because all of these people that are no MMO players will be gone thank god.  
    I don't disagree, but I don't think it is that simple.

    If a company concluded that they could net more profit from f2p as opposed to a sub, then they will go that route no matter the design. 

    If they can determine players will pay 15 dollars a month regularly under a sub plan, but those same players will average greater than 15 dollars a month on a f2p model, guess what they would choose, wow-clone or not? 

    Look at a 5 month comparison:

    15 + 15 + 15 + 15 + 15 = 75$

    0 + 15 (I need another char slot) + 5 + 20 (man i need that mount)  + 50 (xmas time! thx for the gift certificates)  = 90$

    Voila! F2P model accepted, wow clone or not.


    And thats what people don't understand: F2p is worse for the consumer.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nitth

    And thats what people don't understand: F2p is worse for the consumer.

    Not really. For me specifically, it's much better. F2P depends on a much larger audience to fund it. His calculations don't take into account that over half of F2P players don't pay anything and the average that F2P players spend is less than a monthly fee.

     

    F2P is dependent on MANY people playing so that the average spent can be lower per consumer to reach the same levels of profit.

  • CalerxesCalerxes LondonPosts: 1,630Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ShakyMo
    Yeah but the free pie is raw and you have to pay through the nose to cook it.

     

    So have you costed all the f2p games then to know its "pay through the nose" I presume with the certainty of your posting style you have done this research. So could I have a look at your research? I'm rather interested.

    This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  • danwest58danwest58 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 981Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zorgo
    Originally posted by danwest58
     

    P2P is only having a problem because games are coping an pasting WoW designs and are not worth $15 a month.  Add to that there are what 48+ MMOs so its a competition of crap vs crap so who is going to spend their money when nothing is worth it right now?   If we continue down this path what will happen is the MMO industry will shrink, fewer publishers will be willing to take a risk there for fewer MMOS will be out again.  That will bring back the P2P system because all of these people that are no MMO players will be gone thank god.  

    I don't disagree, but I don't think it is that simple.

    If a company concluded that they could net more profit from f2p as opposed to a sub, then they will go that route no matter the design. 

    If they can determine players will pay 15 dollars a month regularly under a sub plan, but those same players will average greater than 15 dollars a month on a f2p model, guess what they would choose, wow-clone or not? 

    Look at a 5 month comparison:

    15 + 15 + 15 + 15 + 15 = 75$

    0 + 15 (I need another char slot) + 5 + 20 (man i need that mount)  + 50 (xmas time! thx for the gift certificates)  = 90$

    Voila! F2P model accepted, wow clone or not.

    Yea but F2P cash shops are going to do 1 thing honestly drive MMO players away.  Why?  Because the whole premise is based on people not being able to control their spending.  It will work for a little while however not long term.  Why?  Simple MMO players average age is 37 years old.  With that said if more and more of the average MMO players learn this is what is happening to the genera they will just quit playing.  They will not be impluse buyers like the younger crowd because they have kids and a family to support.  Spending more than $15 to $50 a month on a game will piss people off and you already see backlash from mmo gamers against some of these games cash shops.  As much as people think it will stick it will not.  In a few years F2P will just be another model.  

     

    http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/713502/esas-gamer-study-average-player-37-42-percent-of-gamers-female/

    image

  • korent1991korent1991 CakovecPosts: 1,390Member
    Originally posted by Theodwulf
    nothing in the world is "FREE"... servers and the people who run them and those that develop content and the electricity to empower them all,  cost money..someone is paying  someone for these services.. you, who pays nothing,  ARE the product.  Does F2P scare you yet?

    never scared me, never will...

    Players aren't the product... You're the buyer in this case and you'll always be a buyer, but in this case you're only a potential buyer until you actually decide to buy something with your money to get from that company.

    The thing is, F2P market is huge and competition is heavy. In order for games to survive they'll eventually have to think about what they're doing with the cash shops and how they're limiting the gameplay. The first company to implement the cash shop right will get the most players and the others will have to follow if they'll planning on making money...

    The same way F2P with bad cash shops are wiping out P2P games, that's how good shop F2P will wipe out bad shop F2P eventually...

    "Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
    -------------------------------

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  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by Nitth

     


    Originally posted by Zorgo

    Originally posted by danwest58


     

    P2P is only having a problem because games are coping an pasting WoW designs and are not worth $15 a month.  Add to that there are what 48+ MMOs so its a competition of crap vs crap so who is going to spend their money when nothing is worth it right now?   If we continue down this path what will happen is the MMO industry will shrink, fewer publishers will be willing to take a risk there for fewer MMOS will be out again.  That will bring back the P2P system because all of these people that are no MMO players will be gone thank god.  
    I don't disagree, but I don't think it is that simple.

     

    If a company concluded that they could net more profit from f2p as opposed to a sub, then they will go that route no matter the design. 

    If they can determine players will pay 15 dollars a month regularly under a sub plan, but those same players will average greater than 15 dollars a month on a f2p model, guess what they would choose, wow-clone or not? 

    Look at a 5 month comparison:

    15 + 15 + 15 + 15 + 15 = 75$

    0 + 15 (I need another char slot) + 5 + 20 (man i need that mount)  + 50 (xmas time! thx for the gift certificates)  = 90$

    Voila! F2P model accepted, wow clone or not.


     

    And thats what people don't understand: F2p is worse for the consumer.

    Again, I don't disagree, but don't think it is that simple either....

    I have a friend who bought a full size pick-up which gets 11 mpg. My car gets 21 mpg. Every time he goes to the gas pump he pays significantly more than I do. Yet, he is happy with the product and satisfied in paying more.

    Needless to say, I would not be. 

    If the customer is satisfied with paying more  - who's to say it is wrong?

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