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Originally posted by niceguy3978 I don't remember this wonderful community that existed before WoW. It was different, that is for sure. There were different "anti-social" behaviors going on in UO and EQ (the two I played the most). There wasn't the same amount of ninja looting and shit talking as today, but damn there were just as many assclowns. They didn't steal loot, they sat and ganked/griefed players in UO. They trained mobs to people in EQ. It was a different type of assclownery, but it was assclownery regardless.
The community wasn't necessarily a magical, wonderful hugs-for-all sort of place, but that's why I worded it "more social". But to be completely fair, perhaps it's just that low-tier engagement with the game forced a certain amount of socialization which now isn't necessary. Because I certainly don't feel that guild socialization has decreased noticeably.
Hopefully you're not implying ninja-looting is as frequent nowadays as middle-years WOW. I saw more items ninja'd in a month in vanilla WOW than I've seen in the last 6 years of WOW. Games like Neverwinter may come onto the scene and be entirely bad about ninja looting, but that's just a flat-out design flaw.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Looking way too deep into this...
I'm usually on Ventrilo/Mumble with gaming buds. If there are +6 of us, one has to PuG, but we still chatting it out. Much more convenient than typing. Nothing personal against my group or the people in the area.
Originally posted by BearKnight I've been reading a lot, and experiencing...A LOT, of anti-social gamers recently in newer titles. Specifically in Rift, Neverwinter, and SWTOR when I gave them a test-drive. By anti-social, I mean PUG groups that act worse than your creepy next-door neighbor whom always yells at you about your cat running around your apartment at odd hours of the night. I'm used to PUG groups being fun & enjoyable from previous titles like EQ1, SWG, AC1, AC2, etc etc. It was all about socializing, getting to meet new people, learning how to play classes better because that one magician could solo 9 mobs at once that were 3 levels above him, etc. Nowadays if I EVER do a "pickup group" I'm left with mute ninja-looting immature children whom scoff at the thought of using real words rather than short abbreviated statements such as "Nope LOL", "u Mad?", or [insert expletives as an adjective followed by your instead of you're]. Instead of being nostalgic for gameplay of the past I'm starting to become nostalgic for the communities of the past . -Bear
I logged into my guilds vent the other day and we were chatting about Neverwinter. The admin randomly says to us, "you all talk too much." People like them is what's wrong with gaming. If you want to be anti-social with people don't create a ventrilo server for people to hang out in.
In the early days of the Internet, around 1998 or so, the only people on the Internet were college students and early adopters for the most part.
Everyone was the same more or less, male, 20 somethings, geeks.
These days everyone and their grandmas are on the Internet.
There's a bunch of unsupervised children living a Lord of the Flies lifestyle. This is just one example. When these children aren't poking the fat kid with the spear, their in your chat posting anal rifts.
Originally posted by roreux In the early days of the Internet, around 1998 or so, the only people on the Internet were college students and early adopters for the most part. Everyone was the same more or less, male, 20 somethings, geeks. These days everyone and their grandmas are on the Internet. There's a bunch of unsupervised children living a Lord of the Flies lifestyle. This is just one example. When these children aren't poking the fat kid with the spear, their in your chat posting anal rifts.
Man you said it...I should just cut and paste this to something lol - it's brilliant.
Let me add that a lot of pen and paper dice (dungeons and dragons, GURPS, etc., old school gamers) were the target audience for games like EQ, UO, DAoC, Anarchy Online, etc. That population could still be grief mongers and butt heads - but there was in all of that an amazing community as well.
Without disrespecting folks - there are definitely a bunch of "baked" folks playing these games nowadays. I lot of "sup" and "pwn" talk..text talk, etc. Frustrating.
Originally posted by BearKnight I've been reading a lot, and experiencing...A LOT, of anti-social gamers recently in newer titles. Specifically in Rift, Neverwinter, and SWTOR when I gave them a test-drive. By anti-social, I mean PUG groups that act worse than your creepy next-door neighbor whom always yells at you
Well I rely on PUG completely. I play a lot but I can not plan my work shedule ahead so I could never affort to plan some raid for 1 week ahead. Actually to be hones, I'm altholic and playing all possible alts, but after leveling all alts to max and still feeling fresh and willing to play ... i switch to PUG.
As goes for Swtor you mentioned ... never experienced better PUG's in any game. Very very rarely happen some player like you mentioned above join the group. Last time I remember week ago completely random group spent nearly 2 hours to finish flashpoint, everything possible went wrong. :-) But group was very nice despite terrible dps and we have been adapting and chatting a lot to make it done. Nor tank nor healer had it looks have not been in that FP, I have, but as said dps was just bad, mistakes accumulating, ... We did not finish however, was to late at the end, but in 2 hours no cursing or alike. I prefer spending 2 hours in (hopeless :-) FP then some just "run through". Not always but again ... my experience with SWTOR random groups is best ever.
Originally posted by StonesDK People used to be dependent on each other for advancement, which put them on their best behavior. Names were remembered and people were blacklisted which could cripple you, if you wanted to experience end game. In EQ people would for the most part be stationary for a long time so if you had a bad rep, getting a spot on a list would be nearly impossible. Bad behavior had consequences Today nobody remembers your name and even if they did, you can just plop down a little cash for a name change or a server move. Nobody cares.
This is pretty much what caused the downward spiral of MMO's as we know them today. Random, cross realm, group finders made this behavior even easier, as there are even fewer consequences for being a total D-bag. Show me any game with a really good community, and 9 times out of 10 it won't have: 1. random, cross-server, queues, 2. name changes available 3. solo oriented play, you NEED other people to advance.
Well, here's an interesting observation. In the private Vanilla WoW server i play there are quite few players still (peaks at about 200 online from both factions). It's about 50/50 Alliance vs Horde. Since there are so few players, most people are in one of two guilds (lower levels and higher levels), and these two guilds are pretty tight as well. Therefor, everyone is essentially a "guildie", and that golden rule "be nice to guildies" applies to almost everyone on the server. There are about 600 members in the large guild and many of them come and go now and then.
- Small closed communities forces people to stand for their actions and take considerable consequences for acting ill.
- A "super-guild", basically also acting as a global chat, makes people bond.
Maybe there shouldn't be super-servers with 10.000's of players, or everyone in the world in the same super-cluster. Maybe there should be a limit on about 300-600 players on each "playground". That way you get to know people better, and you actually have to make friends and care for your reputation to get anywhere.
True old fart story pertaining to the original post. Way back when in a game called Dark Sun online, on my very first day I was so excited to actually be in an online role playing game that I was beside myself. I had rolled up this elf magic user that I had called Grackleflint, and I was determined to have the roleplaying experience of a lifetime with a bunch of like-minded individuals. I rolled into the game and out into the wilderness looking for someone that I could team up with to conquer this strange and new world. Upon coming to the docks I spied another player and harkened up to him to make my salutations.
"Greetings stranger! I am new to this land, would you be willing to guide me to an area where I could build my skills?", I said.
SPLAT!!! was the next thing I heard as the harm potion hit me and my hit points began bleeding out of my young elven body out of my control. (sure, looking back I know I had it coming to me).
That happened about two or three more times before I resigned myself to that being the way of the world. Roleplay went out the window, any thoughts I had of being a good guy went out the window. I destroyed that game and everyone that played it for a good year or so and it took me until the next game came along to actually burn that feeling out of my body enough to go back to trying to be a good guy in an MMO again.
The point of this story being, there have always been anti-social gamers in these games. They are a self propagating species of which there is no end worsened by people exactly like me who came with good intentions but through the sheer frustration of not being able to stand up to their massive numbers, gave in and probably created countless more idiots just like myself.
People are weak. The weakest being those who wish they were strong but aren't strong enough to be so. The basic, human animal is that one that goes out there and builds that orc warrior or elven magic user or whatever combination of whatever they can figure out that will give them the most advantage in whatever game they are playing, and then goes out and joins the herd of greedy, craven, basic human animals, just like their selves, in the scavenge for whatever crumbs may drop that they can use to increase themselves.
That's been the truth for years.
The civilized man however is someone who wishes for more. That who you are OP, or at least who you want to be. But there is no surge in regular men/women (cause they are just as bad). What you are actually noticing is a fall off in our kind as the lack of a good example can barely be found anywhere anymore.
Go be the example. It's the most challenging and rewarding kind of gameplay there is anyway.
Yadda, yadda, yadda, when I was your age, yadda.
1998 was no the early days of the Internet. Not by a long shot.
Originally posted by Razeekster I know the feeling OP. I haven't been able to find a good community for any MMORPG in a long time. Even guilds have gone down hill in MMOs because instead of community a lot of them are only interested in what you can do for them. It's really sad to think about
I wonder...how much time are you spending in PuGs?
It's a good question for the entire thread, really; are you judging the entire 'social atmosphere' of the game you're in by the minimum possible standard? The worst-case?
Because I've never (going out guild shopping) had any issue seeking out stable, mature guilds, in any game I've played. I tend to really research and shop around a lot before choosing one; once burned and thrice shy.
Yet the cries and moans of people who are in terrible (to their own evaluation) guilds never stops either. Are all of these people "PuGing" guilds (the kind that 'advertise' in global chat 'Join Joe's Guild! PST!', no standards, essentially random selection?) Because that's just another (great big) pug, not a guild.
IN short (and no offense), are you yourself generally always choosing the easy way out—soloing a lot, PuGing constantly, not applying any standards in your guild selection—and then enjoying a good grump at the (predictable) results?
It's always baffled me how/why the folks who spend the most time bemoaning the 'social decline' of MMOs are PuGing so much....
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by jesad Go be the example. It's the most challenging and rewarding kind of gameplay there is anyway.
True story—well, I've told the Mentor story before and it's pretty windbag-y, never mind.
But the roleplaying threads (the ones that ran long enough to wax philosophical) often reach the same conclusion; you generally can't get out more than you put in, so if you want a lot of result, you need to make a huge effort yourself.
It's all about complexity... more complex games, more evolved players.
WoW, LoL, and so are full of child players, under-educated players, ghetto-players, etc...
EQ, Eve, vanguard, are hard games, so players know that games requieres some brain, and most people doesnt have brain... so they play wow, lol, neverwinter, gw2, etc...
People that want a challenge is people able to join a community... people wanting free stuff and so are troll people
It is sad that so many gamers have become basically indifferent to others in the game, and I don't feel that this anti-social wave of behavior is limited to gaming. Just walk into any restaurant these days and you see couples not even speaking with one another; they just sit there tapping away on their iphones. Same is true in waiting rooms or any social environment in which people used to converse regularly.
Back to topic, perhaps a creative solution for this anti-social mindset should be incorporated into the game world... such as a limited number of players belonging to each instance of a shard... a 'family' if you will. An Instance Leader or Senate could be elected after several weeks of play. Rude players could be ousted from the instance. Other socially unacceptable acts could be reprimanded. I don't feel that forced integration should be required, but it should at least be an option in future games, leaving the balance of players to fend for themselves in the outside world.
Thats why i play DayZ now if someone acts like asshole i just kill him and take all his stuff.
These days people rude and leave on a whimp if they die there gone. If one mistake they curse swear and fuke your ... well you know what i mean.
But clans/guilds also are trash and full of anti socials so clan/guilds or pugs makes no differences.
Last year expereince this in GW2-AoE 2 HD now i play solo games or DayZ which is awesome game.
Hmm only thing I've mentioned is that newbies are surprised when I just help them in Vanguard.
Since I dont play these other games, I dont know firsthand how the things are going on there. But I know that the first month in Vanguard was hell. Lots of very unfriendly people around.
Originally posted by tarodin under-educated players, ghetto-players, etc...
Really? My experience in games judging by the nature of the (often very racist and classist) remarks is that the rich and middle class players are the most numerous and the mouthiest by far. In real life working with the public that has also been my experience.
It's like certain people think they're smarter and more special and entitled to everything their good fortune brings just because they picked the right parents. They also believe they're more couth but in reality they tend to be the rudest.
I agree that there are more younger players and this is a problem. I might be willing to agree that there are less geeky outcasts and more 'regular' people now.
Of course that means I have my own stereotypes to play with. I am not only annoyed at having to share my MMOs with teenagers instead of mostly older players like me, I am also annoyed that the anti-social dork crowd that used to be the majority of gamers has been replaced by these awful 'normal' people with their weird talk of sports and all those other things I've never given a damn about.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Originally posted by allendale5 It is sad that so many gamers have become basically indifferent to others in the game, and I don't feel that this anti-social wave of behavior is limited to gaming. Just walk into any restaurant these days and you see couples not even speaking with one another; they just sit there tapping away on their iphones. Same is true in waiting rooms or any social environment in which people used to converse regularly.
This is the main cause of it... Real Life Culture is becoming anti-social more and more, at least on a face to face basis, because of our Tech. If the Earth ever experiences an "ELE" event or similar then we all are in for a rough ride just with learneing how to get along with each other without cellphone and comps. Kindergarten will look tame in comparison.
Now I think as far as MMOs go, add the following: Years ago when MMOs were new we all grouped together and fought together to have fun and win, but over the years Players were less and less willing to spend the time needed, and work with everyone, now .... it's easier for Players to pick and choose which Players are "exceptable" and "make the grade". DPS meters and other 3rd party apps make MMOs into a pass/fail experience rather than a group shared experience. Add to the recipe an attitude that basically says "It's MY time, I am not going to spend it with some Player that haven't learned how to do this dungeon or can't get in the top 90% of Server dps numbers!!!". Or my personal favorite "Hey you! Hurry Up or I am going to kick you, stop reading the quest dialog/cutscene, I am not going to spend 2 seconds more doing this quest than I absolutely have to!"
and you wonder why some Players like myself, who used to be very social in MMO Gaming, now spend most of time solo?
MMOs are all about "Time". I have said that before in older posts and I will say it again. We spend Time doing quests, or hunting as in Wurm Online, we spend time crafting or building, we spend time in dugeons or in arenas, but most importantly we are supposed to be spending time with other Players. If a Player doesn't have the real life Time to spend playing a MMO, then maybe they shouldn't be playing a MMO, maybe another form of entertainment would be be to their liking. When I join a group in ANY MMO I am prepared to group with anyone, no matter what their skill level is, no matter how long it takes to finish the objective/mission/dungeon. Why? Because I believe that how's it's supposed to be done in a MMO.
Too bad 99% of current Players in MMOs don't see it the same as I do. Now Players get evaluated and are either considered acceptable to group with or considered a waste of pixels. Now Player like me are considered just too slow, too weak, or too inexperienced to be beneficial to a Group.... and if a Player can't group and not be kicked... in other words group and stay to finish and learn... then Players may never learn how to do this or that Dungeon or Op.
Players get sick of getting kicked when they are trying to learn and trying to do their best. Players get sick of being told they aren't good enough. When MMOs were populated with mostly Geeks and Nerds and Dorks most everyone was welcome. Not anymore. Eventually some of us just go solo, and solo is usually interpreted as anti-social. In no way did we ever wish to be considered that.
That's part of the answer the OP seeks.
Originally posted by Madimorga Originally posted by tarodin under-educated players, ghetto-players, etc...
I'm not refering to scholar education... with under-educated i wanted to refer to people that their parents didnt fill with good actitude like humility and so... ghetto-players is a huge mistake by my side and i apologice of use that word.
If you dont understand me is normal because english is not my natural languaje.